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God Hates Lags
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
986
   |
Posted - 2014.03.11 05:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
So the last of these posts generated a fair amount of controversy, but the overwhelming opinion seemed to be that it wasn't the heavy suits themselves that were OP, but the fact that the HMG wasn't getting nerfed along with the rifles. I would like to present a number of arguments as to why the HMG should not have been nerfed first and foremost.
1. The HMG is supposed to dominate CQC. You'll notice that the shotguns and nova knives aren't getting nerfed either. Why is this? Because they, like the HMG, have a very specific purpose and very limited range within which the function. HMG will still struggle to kill a shotgun scout within 10 meters and if knova knifed from behind, a heavy will die with one charged hit. There are counters to the HMG, including outranging it, or getting in very close and out maneuvering it. And yet it remains incredibly effective in it's one, albeit limited role.
2. The HMG's reticle is extremely limiting. Unlike other weapons, the HMG loses a lot of effectiveness if it is used on an enemy behind partial cover, or one at a distance. For this reason the HMG is even more range limited than other weapons, with exponential fall off even within its effective range. In addition, the limiting factor of partial cover offers an easy counter. If you let a heavy apply full damage on your more nimble assault suit it's your own damn fault.
3. Previously the other rifles were much more powerful than the HMG. The pre-nerf combat rifle had a 635 DPS, making it more powerful than the HMG WITH DOUBLE IT'S EFFECTIVE RANGE. This is just bad game design. The new stats give it 540 dps, still defeating the HMG outside of 25m or with cover factored in, but the combat rifle isn't inherently better than the HMG. As for the other rifles, the scrambler rifle and rail rifles are obviously not supposed to function ideally within the HMG's optimal but both still have a reasonably high DPS. The blaster rifle obviously shouldn't have been nerfed but that is a moot point.
Overall, HMG will do exactly what it is supposed to do in 1.8 and nothing more, while the rifle changes make the rifles effective within their own optimal ranges without dominating HMG territory. There are a huge number of counters to the HMG. Moreover an HMG heavy will dominate close quarters but it's incredibly specific ideal range will prevent it from being FOTM.
Doubles ISK
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Nocturnal Soul
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2166
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 05:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
dedede
"But we have been blessed"
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LUGMOS
YELLOW JESUS EXP FORCE
352
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Posted - 2014.03.11 05:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
God Hates Lags wrote:getting in very close and out maneuvering it.
Not even... You can still turn around as fast as a scout.
Otherwise, good points.
The biggest threat to my scout is everything.
There is no them, only us.
[Q] <-- Drink Moar Quafe
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1244
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Posted - 2014.03.11 05:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
has everyone forgeotten what happens when you add the highest damage output with monsterous defence?
its missing 2 things, range and speed. both of wich are easily mitigated by sitting on top of an objective or launching yourself into it with an LAV or dropship.
using these two methods you eliminate every disadvantage and eliminate every advantage other suits can get.
its classic CCP and tank514 all over again. |
Doshneil Antaro
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
234
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 05:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
I can't wait to see how the heavy performs post patch. I agree it won't be uber awesome like everyone agrees, but some issues will arise from it.
Light weapons plus the heavy suit will still be an issue. This is a player born issue, not a balance issue though. Alot of people running them in mass numbers will make them feel more powerful than what they are. When one team has 6-8 on one side all huddled together, it can be exceptionaly rough to overcome, but is manageable.
Same spam plus with HMG around obj's makes defending the letter easy mode, while leaving the attack horrible.
I think CCP has been doing a good job bringing things into better balance, it is just the playerbase loves to exploit anything they can. Most of these issues are more pub related, and have little bearing or tactical value in PC.
I guess what it boils down to is that "SPAM" in any form is OP.
Sage /thread
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God Hates Lags
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
987
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Posted - 2014.03.11 05:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:A hmg useless at 10m? have you been killed by one recently or are you some god among us.
Didn't say useless, but Shotgun applies more damage faster at 5m than the HMG does.
Doubles ISK
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God Hates Lags
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
987
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 05:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:God Hates Lags wrote:getting in very close and out maneuvering it. Not even... You can still turn around as fast as a scout. Otherwise, good points.
A scout can easily jump around a heavy faster than it can turn.
Doubles ISK
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Mossellia Delt
Militaires Sans Jeux
1027
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 06:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lol at the one hit from knives
I have minmatar scout at level five, knives at five and proficiency, even with both knives hitting a current proto heavy they don't die, from one hit.
Join the Channel - CPM1 Candidates - Get to know who's running.
Delt for CPM1
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Mossellia Delt
Militaires Sans Jeux
1027
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Posted - 2014.03.11 06:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
God Hates Lags wrote:LUGMOS wrote:God Hates Lags wrote:getting in very close and out maneuvering it. Not even... You can still turn around as fast as a scout. Otherwise, good points. A scout can easily jump around a heavy faster than it can turn.
This is wrong, try using a mouse, instantly spins the heavy.
Join the Channel - CPM1 Candidates - Get to know who's running.
Delt for CPM1
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Rusty Shallows
1073
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 06:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:God Hates Lags wrote:getting in very close and out maneuvering it. Not even... You can still turn around as fast as a scout. Otherwise, good points.
Maybe CCP will ninja the turn radius nerf back in. Maybe it will be the first time that disadvantage served a purpose other than a rectal nerf.
Here, have some candy and a Like. :-)
Forums > Game
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Chibi Andy
Forsaken Immortals
Top Men.
1041
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Posted - 2014.03.11 07:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
oh well i guess non heavy users will still QQ about us. seems like a lot of people keep forgetting that this is a MMOFPS game with a touch of RPG elements in it (mainly the skill system and class/dropsuit) and that the heavy fills in the role as a tanker who soaks up a lot of dmg. and with every type of rpg you can equip different weapons if you have enough points in it, but most of the players here are just focused on the FPS part where this class can ONLY use this type of weapon.
YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED!!!
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
691
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Posted - 2014.03.11 09:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
God Hates Lags wrote:So the last of these posts generated a fair amount of controversy, but the overwhelming opinion seemed to be that it wasn't the heavy suits themselves that were OP, but the fact that the HMG wasn't getting nerfed along with the rifles. I would like to present a number of arguments as to why the HMG should not have been nerfed first and foremost.
1. The HMG is supposed to dominate CQC. You'll notice that the shotguns and nova knives aren't getting nerfed either. Why is this? Because they, like the HMG, have a very specific purpose and very limited range within which the function. HMG will still struggle to kill a shotgun scout within 10 meters and if knova knifed from behind, a heavy will die with one charged hit. There are counters to the HMG, including outranging it, or getting in very close and out maneuvering it. And yet it remains incredibly effective in it's one, albeit limited role.
Thats simply not true first the MHG is greater than 10m and the shotguns optimal is way less than 10m.
Secondly the HMG is a very powerful weapon. Third the SG got a nerf they changes the RoF bonu to a damage to sh9ield bonus in that case this IS a huge nerf on an already underperforming weapon. Sure NK's don't get nerfed, but they are only great on the minni scout with 25% damage boos on all other suits they are troll weapons and won't be able to kill a heavy in a single strike...
God Hates Lags wrote:
2. The HMG's reticle is extremely limiting. Unlike other weapons, the HMG loses a lot of effectiveness if it is used on an enemy behind partial cover, or one at a distance. For this reason the HMG is even more range limited than other weapons, with exponential fall off even within its effective range. In addition, the limiting factor of partial cover offers an easy counter. If you let a heavy apply full damage on your more nimble assault suit it's your own damn fault.
Wrong ads anything within the recticle gets hit when I fire the HMG this thing is great, sure its not a precision weapon but it was never meant to be one. If you now look to the SG, the SG has a similar recticle but the SG will only hit if the Target is dead in the center. This is such a drawbacj that some put a note on their TV where the center is.
God Hates Lags wrote:
3. Previously the other rifles were much more powerful than the HMG. The pre-nerf combat rifle had a 635 DPS, making it more powerful than the HMG WITH DOUBLE IT'S EFFECTIVE RANGE. This is just bad game design. The new stats give it 540 dps, still defeating the HMG outside of 25m or with cover factored in, but the combat rifle isn't inherently better than the HMG. As for the other rifles, the scrambler rifle and rail rifles are obviously not supposed to function ideally within the HMG's optimal but both still have a reasonably high DPS. The blaster rifle obviously shouldn't have been nerfed but that is a moot point.
Here I agree the CR is quite powerfull BUT it has merely enough ammo to kill a tanked heavy (and this will be worse in 1.8)
The HMG has enough ammo in one clip to kill several medium frames. The HMG will have close to double the DPS compared to the AR thats clearly OP. Especially since both weapons are CQC weapons with similar optimals.
God Hates Lags wrote:
Overall, HMG will do exactly what it is supposed to do in 1.8 and nothing more, while the rifle changes make the rifles effective within their own optimal ranges without dominating HMG territory. There are a huge number of counters to the HMG. Moreover an HMG heavy will dominate close quarters but it's incredibly specific ideal range will prevent it from being FOTM.
The HMG already do what it is supposed to do, for this heavy event I just started using the Heavy HMG combo and this is already a very powerful combo. In 1.8 this will become clearly an OP combo. Whoever thaougt it is cleaver to give the highest DPS weapon to the highest eHP suit needs to get fired.
The Heavy HMG combo will sure be a FOTM's alongside with HAVs.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
3241
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Posted - 2014.03.11 09:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:God Hates Lags wrote:getting in very close and out maneuvering it. Not even... You can still turn around as fast as a scout. Otherwise, good points.
Actually you can't.
Turning speed on the heavy was made faster, not as fast. When they said it was uncapped, that was a lie. |
D3VASTAT0R
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 09:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
Chibi Andy wrote:oh well i guess non heavy users will still QQ about us. seems like a lot of people keep forgetting that this is a MMOFPS game with a touch of RPG elements in it (mainly the skill system and class/dropsuit) and that the heavy fills in the role as a tanker who soaks up a lot of dmg. and with every type of rpg you can equip different weapons if you have enough points in it, but most of the players here are just focused on the FPS part where this class can ONLY use this type of weapon.
Clearly the rpg's you played were trash cuz in the ones i played weapons were class lock. I dont see a Assault using a hmg or a forge gun so why should you be using light weapons. Same for logi if CCP would class lock some weapons or mods for logi role the ppl who haven't got the picture of LOGI and what its role stands for would stop using it. CCP you have to know ppl are morons and will cry about anything if you give in to what they all cry afor you will never have a game. |
Chibi Andy
Forsaken Immortals
Top Men.
1041
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 10:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
D3VASTAT0R wrote:Chibi Andy wrote:oh well i guess non heavy users will still QQ about us. seems like a lot of people keep forgetting that this is a MMOFPS game with a touch of RPG elements in it (mainly the skill system and class/dropsuit) and that the heavy fills in the role as a tanker who soaks up a lot of dmg. and with every type of rpg you can equip different weapons if you have enough points in it, but most of the players here are just focused on the FPS part where this class can ONLY use this type of weapon. Clearly the rpg's you played were trash cuz in the ones i played weapons were class lock. I dont see a Assault using a hmg or a forge gun so why should you be using light weapons. Same for logi if CCP would class lock some weapons or mods for logi role the ppl who haven't got the picture of LOGI and what its role stands for would stop using it. CCP you have to know ppl are morons and will cry about anything if you give in to what they all cry afor you will never have a game.
well im not comparing to other RPG's im just pointing it out. then again the HMG IS a heavy weapon so you can't really expect a scout to be running around with a huge ass weapon if the suit wasn't designed to carry such heavy stuff (if based on lore)
but that isnt the problem here, the problem is that most people are complaining about the HMG or that the heavy is able to use light weapons. so why not just take away the ability to carry light weapons and also make sure that the assault suits are not able to carry equipments since Logi's are the ones who are supposed to support the team. so heavies and assaults have no need for equipments when their jobs are to kill/defend etc etc.
but then again if its lore wise the heavy suit was designed to carry heavy weapons so in essence its able to wield lighter weapons but not like anyone gives a s-h-i-t about that
YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED!!!
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Gelan Corbaine
Gladiators Vanguard
316
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 12:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:has everyone forgeotten what happens when you add the highest damage output with monsterous defence?
its missing 2 things, range and speed. both of wich are easily mitigated by sitting on top of an objective or launching yourself into it with an LAV or dropship.
using these two methods you eliminate every disadvantage and eliminate every advantage other suits can get.
its classic CCP and tank514 all over again.
Heavy sitting on a point ? There are these things called mass drivers , laser rifles and sniper rifles..... hey look ! two of them are getting buffed this patch !
Lav's and dropships are a significant investment on top of their suit and gives AV and tanks more to do,
No job is worth doing if you don't get paid in the end .
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NAV HIV
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
1114
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 12:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Caldari Heavy + Any Rifle = OMG !!!! |
The Terminator T-1000
Skynet Incorporated
188
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Posted - 2014.03.11 13:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
One of the heavy limitations is short range. The problem will be heavies carrying RRs |
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7324
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 13:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:LUGMOS wrote:God Hates Lags wrote:getting in very close and out maneuvering it. Not even... You can still turn around as fast as a scout. Otherwise, good points. Actually you can't. Turning speed on the heavy was made faster, not as fast. When they said it was uncapped, that was a lie.
Stop running around complex armor plates.
Those reduce your turning speed.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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xxwhitedevilxx M
Maphia Clan Corporation
1850
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 13:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
NAV HIV wrote:Any Heavy + Any Rifle = OMG !!!!
Fixed
>Bastard I : "Cce me ne... futt! XD"
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xxwhitedevilxx M
Maphia Clan Corporation
1850
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 13:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:LUGMOS wrote:God Hates Lags wrote:getting in very close and out maneuvering it. Not even... You can still turn around as fast as a scout. Otherwise, good points. Actually you can't. Turning speed on the heavy was made faster, not as fast. When they said it was uncapped, that was a lie. Stop running around complex armor plates. Those reduce your turning speed.
I was about to type it. That's right: plates reduce your turning speed.
>Bastard I : "Cce me ne... futt! XD"
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Zahle Undt
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
891
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Posted - 2014.03.11 13:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gelan Corbaine wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:has everyone forgeotten what happens when you add the highest damage output with monsterous defence?
its missing 2 things, range and speed. both of wich are easily mitigated by sitting on top of an objective or launching yourself into it with an LAV or dropship.
using these two methods you eliminate every disadvantage and eliminate every advantage other suits can get.
its classic CCP and tank514 all over again. Heavy sitting on a point ? There are these things called mass drivers , laser rifles and sniper rifles..... hey look ! two of them are getting buffed this patch ! Lav's and dropships are a significant investment on top of their suit and gives AV and tanks more to do,
And all Sentinels have a resistance to those MDs, some will have resistances to sniper fire, others lasers. The resistances PLUS unnerfed HMG = advantage Sentinel. But go ahead and spec into the FotB, just don't be salty when it gets nerfed, that is the cycle of Dust.
Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
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Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1248
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 14:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
Gelan Corbaine wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:has everyone forgeotten what happens when you add the highest damage output with monsterous defence?
its missing 2 things, range and speed. both of wich are easily mitigated by sitting on top of an objective or launching yourself into it with an LAV or dropship.
using these two methods you eliminate every disadvantage and eliminate every advantage other suits can get.
its classic CCP and tank514 all over again. Heavy sitting on a point ? There are these things called mass drivers , laser rifles and sniper rifles..... hey look ! two of them are getting buffed this patch ! Lav's and dropships are a significant investment on top of their suit and gives AV and tanks more to do,
and only the MD is actually useful for a heavy sitting on a point.... wich they just happen to get a massive damage reduction for.
good luck sniping or LRing a heavy sitting inside the battery objective of the research facility, or the two underground objectives on the outside of it, or the building objectives that acompany them.
and dropships and LAVs are a ZERO SP investment on top up their suits.... and can get places faster then AV can prevent them from doing so. |
Disturbingly Bored
Forum Warfare
1990
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 14:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
I'll try to keep it brief. As per the OP's points:
1) The HMG already dominates CQC in 1.7. And the balance between the rifles in general and the HMG is currently about spot on. It doesn't need a relative buff.
Without a (minor, 8-9%) nerf, the HMG is dangerously close to dominating the Gallente AR over its entire effective range in 1.8.
2) Reticule smeticule. The current reticule isn't nearly the problem it was when the HMG has laser-like accuracy. This is really a non-issue once you're good with the gun.
3) The maximum DPS of semi-auto weapons is not achievable unless you have olympic-level fingers or a modded controller. It's difficult to calculate the true applied DPS of the Combat Rifle in game.
Regardless, the HMG doesn't lose to it (or any other rifle) in CQC unless the heavy is already in armor, or the rifle user has god gun game.
The gun is good, the gun is balanced. Right now. In 1.7. I really think the combination of a relative 8-9% DPS "buff" plus Sentinel resistances is going to push it into OP territory come next patch.
I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - draconian forum overlord CCP Logibro]
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God Hates Lags
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
992
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 14:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:God Hates Lags wrote:LUGMOS wrote:God Hates Lags wrote:getting in very close and out maneuvering it. Not even... You can still turn around as fast as a scout. Otherwise, good points. A scout can easily jump around a heavy faster than it can turn. This is wrong, try using a mouse, instantly spins the heavy.
KBM is broken but that's not a problem with the heavy, it's a problem with those controls.
Doubles ISK
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Vulpes Dolosus
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
989
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 14:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tier for tier and mod for mod, I don't think it's possible to OHKO a heavy with NK (idk about MIn scouts though) or even SG.
Me in my ADS: 1,2
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1818
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 14:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:has everyone forgeotten what happens when you add the highest damage output with monsterous defence?
its missing 2 things, range and speed. both of wich are easily mitigated by sitting on top of an objective or launching yourself into it with an LAV or dropship.
using these two methods you eliminate every disadvantage and eliminate every advantage other suits can get.
its classic CCP and tank514 all over again.
It's almost like heavies are meant to sit on an objective and stop people from taking them or something. |
Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2635
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 14:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Meh, it seems like it's going to be just like 1.7 where they buffed the tanks and also nerfed anything that could kill them.
But hey, unlike 1.7 I will be getting myself a heavy.
HMG is still gonna rip through armour, so my Gallente heavy will be at a disadvantage when heavying vs other shield focused heavies, but who cares.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Jake Diesel
BIG BAD W0LVES
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
110
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 14:41:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:has everyone forgeotten what happens when you add the highest damage output with monsterous defence?
its missing 2 things, range and speed. both of wich are easily mitigated by sitting on top of an objective or launching yourself into it with an LAV or dropship.
using these two methods you eliminate every disadvantage and eliminate every advantage other suits can get.
its classic CCP and tank514 all over again.
You can't call in an LAV from anywhere. You obviously haven't used a heavy long enough to know how limited your movement speed is. You make it sound like can just use an LAV to go running around in close quarters. They're only used on open fields. And you certainly can't call them atop most buildings. The LAV is not the substitute for running around a corner chasing someone.
Most medium frame users who haven't used a heavy long enough are gonna find out places they used to tread are now 10 times harder to get to. Try hopping around mountain tops in a heavy. Lol. |
Ghosts Chance
Inf4m0us
1248
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 14:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:has everyone forgeotten what happens when you add the highest damage output with monsterous defence?
its missing 2 things, range and speed. both of wich are easily mitigated by sitting on top of an objective or launching yourself into it with an LAV or dropship.
using these two methods you eliminate every disadvantage and eliminate every advantage other suits can get.
its classic CCP and tank514 all over again. It's almost like heavies are meant to sit on an objective and stop people from taking them or something.
its also almost like they were meant to clamor in LAVs and dropships and assault objectives as well.
because nothing else can.
theres a difference between balanced towards defence, and impossable to attack.
you wont be able to attack the heavys on defence, without being a heavy yourself. meaning the princaple form of attack AND defence is heavys. wich of course makes sence because they are both the highest damage dealers and therefore perfect for assaulting and dispatching the reds quick enough to flip the objective, and the highest defencive capabilities to last as long as possable to ensure another full wave of heavys is able to respawn on defence.
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