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Berserker007
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Posted - 2014.02.26 23:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
With all the current threads regarding armor vs shield; and with the hopes of a respect in 1.8; it got me thinking as to what EvE lore, and most people are saying about shields.
Shields are the hit and run type suit; where armor is the run straight at you suit and take all the damage. At the moment though; shield are just to weak, and the recharge is so slow/not enough to compared with that of armor; along with other things. This got me thinking in ways that shield tanking and this "hit and run" tactics" could work for more then just scout suits. I came up with these ideas (that all kinda go into each other)
1). Buff shield extenders to something like 50/75/100 (and lower/remove penalty) ; keeping the same CPU, but lowering pg to 1/4/7(as in Eve armor is more pg then shield) . This allows shield tankers to change up their builds a bit more, and not handicap themselves of lack of hp for damage to counter armor which get both. Leads to 2.....
2). By giving this buff to extenders, for a Caldari assault per say you could use either 2 or 3 of these extenders to reach shield of 482 or 592. Say you take option 1: of 2 extenders. This leaves you 2 slots open. How about to duel with a galente who will have damage mods, add one damage mod (pending on how they are post rework), so this gives you a bit more pop to your weapon. Then for the last high slot, could try a ..... COMPLEX RECHARGER .... OMG, yes . Now, im not sure how many assaults or even anyone uses these anymore, but by buffing up extenders, it may give rise to a unused module of the recharger. Adding one complex recharger to your Caldari assault suit can put recharge from 25, up to 37 . Now this may not seem great, but leads to 3....
3). Buff regulators. At the moment shield regulators aren't exactly worthwhile for what they do, even at a complex level compared to running a basic/militia plate (even on shield suits). Maybe up a complex regular to something like 40% or so. This all ties into the idea of poking down your enemy. Having the regulator a speed up the recharge of shield; then the recharger to increase the amount recharged
Let the discussion/flame/etc begin (and fyi number/% are off top of head on what may work)
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The Infected One
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Posted - 2014.02.26 23:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
This would help my Minmatar suits as well! I like it! It could make speed taking viable as well, not having to sacrifice a minor speed boost for minor EHP boost, while still letting Caldari be the kings of shield tanking.
I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS?
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Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders
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Posted - 2014.02.27 00:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
50/75/100 is a bit high on the Comp, maybe 50/70/90? Base shield Regen needs a huge buff on min suits though, around 25-30 HP/S
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Berserker007
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Posted - 2014.02.27 00:08:00 -
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Killar-12 wrote:50/75/100 is a bit high on the Comp, maybe 50/70/90? Base shield Regen needs a huge buff on min suits though, around 25-30 HP/S
reason had the 50/75/100, was mainly b/c it still left a good amount of hp difference b/t that of plates; and is easy on the 10% increase from skilling to calc. Plus at 2 extenders, it gives 220, which is equal to 3 current, so I thought it worked out logically at that
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Berserker007
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Posted - 2014.02.27 00:10:00 -
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The Infected One wrote:This would help my Minmatar suits as well! I like it! It could make speed taking viable as well, not having to sacrifice a minor speed boost for minor EHP boost, while still letting Caldari be the kings of shield tanking.
I know, ive had mini assault since 1.5/1.6 don't remember which is came out. As on mini assault, id prob go 3-1-1 (ex, dam, rech) ; then regulator and prob cpu (as will be needed I think), if not, be some sort of speed/stamina mod
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Texs Red
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Posted - 2014.02.27 00:23:00 -
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The problem is that shields lacks any way team support where as armor can utilize triage hives and rep tools.
Armor tankers, if they have support, can fully devote themselves to tanking and leave repairs to an ally with equipment. Shields on the other hand only have their personal repairs with no way to improve performance.
Shields aren't about brawling and should have values notably lower than armor. That said, basic and enhanced extenders are too weak. Basic: 36 and Enhanced: 51 I think would be good values plus there needs to be equipment to support them.
In EVE if there was only logi ships for armor then obviously armor > shields in organized engagements but shields vs armor would remain relatively balanced on a 1v1 factor. |
N1ck Comeau
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Posted - 2014.02.27 00:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
40/60/80.
Seems good for the extenders to me
Tankers- 'Hit us when are hardeners are down"
Proceeds to run three hardeners.
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THEAMAZING POTHEAD
Nyain San
Renegade Alliance
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Posted - 2014.02.27 00:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Shield suits just need the inherent base regen speed or regulators buffed because waiting 8 seconds to START recharging then another 20 to get full shields back is unbelievable stupid for a playstyle thats supposed to be hit n flank.
The shields need to start recharging almost instantly and have a high per second regen for that kind of playstyle.
Regulators need to be buffed to like 25/50/75% so equipping 1 leaves you a couple seconds to start regen and equipping 2 leaves a less than a second.
We would then be able to USE them instead of being COMPLETELY outclassed by dual tanking.
Fact is that shield tanking is unsuitable for a hit n run playstyle because the regen is just not fast enough due to the MASSIVE delays.
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Spartykins
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Posted - 2014.02.27 00:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'd say lower the PG so you can fit biotic's easier.
Would suit the roaming playstyle that shields seem to have.
(Insert witty phrase here)
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Texs Red
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Posted - 2014.02.27 00:37:00 -
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What do you think of this
Shield Booster: Instantly recharges 1000 amount of shields. Cool down for 15 seconds.
In the end the overall rate of shields restored during a period of time (say a minute) is a bit lower than an armor repper of the same tier. However the shield user gains the advantage because instead of it slowly coming back he immediately regains most, if not all, of their shields but is overall less effective during prolonged engagements due to a lower rate over time.
You could have variants that have lower cool downs with lower amounts of shield restored so light or medium suits can make good use of it too.
OR
For every 60 shields restored, cools down for 1 second. That way it is a bit more flexible in who it can help without giving more or less than needed.
Note: The PG is too high on extenders. Lowering by 2 would be a fair balance. |
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
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Posted - 2014.02.27 00:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
what i don't get is that caldari have more regen than min suits and more shieldsGǪ..
honestly, id like a buff that went 44-58-72, as thats balanced and scaled with armor plates, min suits need higher regen and lower regen delay than caldari, and the pg needs to be changed to 1-4-7
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Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
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Posted - 2014.02.27 01:00:00 -
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Killar-12 wrote:50/75/100 is a bit high on the Comp, maybe 50/70/90? Base shield Regen needs a huge buff on min suits though, around 25-30 HP/S
This is all I would really want.
Sometimes I feel my Suits are a bit too soft for frontline combat if I don't Dual-Tank, and this might resolve that issue.
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John ShepardIII
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Posted - 2014.02.27 01:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
To make shield tanking viable we should get 120 hp per complex shld extender 8P
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Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
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Posted - 2014.02.27 01:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Texs Red wrote:The problem is that shields lacks any way team support where as armor can utilize triage hives and rep tools.
Armor tankers, if they have support, can fully devote themselves to tanking and leave repairs to an ally with equipment. Shields on the other hand only have their personal repairs with no way to improve performance.
Shields aren't about brawling and should have values notably lower than armor. That said, basic and enhanced extenders are too weak. Basic: 36 and Enhanced: 51 I think would be good values plus there needs to be equipment to support them.
In EVE if there was only logi ships for armor then obviously armor > shields in organized engagements but shields vs armor would remain relatively balanced on a 1v1 factor.
Hmm. Those Numbers on the standard and enhanced look good, but then it would be such a small difference between Comp and Enh.
IF we go with those numbers, buff the complex Shield Extenders to 70-80 HP per module if you do that.
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Berserker007
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Posted - 2014.02.27 01:13:00 -
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:what i don't get is that caldari have more regen than min suits and more shieldsGǪ..
honestly, id like a buff that went 44-58-72, as thats balanced and scaled with armor plates, min suits need higher regen and lower regen delay than caldari, and the pg needs to be changed to 1-4-7
know mentioned on few posts that we have had on the same topic. The increase your call for is to low to make and sort of different, especially at proto level. The problem is, shield have to get complex to complete in the "hp game", where armor can get away with basic, or adv and be set w/o having to use complex for the high tier movement penalty.
Complex shield need to be worthwhile, and at 72 you suggest they aren't. That means 80 w/ skilling, meaning only 7hp more then they currently are, which would equal to 7-28 more shield which is WORHTLESS. You need a significant increase as I have shown to let shield tanking complete w/ armor; and at the same time it adds a new refound diversity of setups which currentlu aren't feasible to do at all.
Meeko Fent wrote:
Sometimes I feel my Suits are a bit too soft for frontline combat if I don't Dual-Tank, and this might resolve that issue.
Exactly. Once a shield suit loses its shield, you are kinda f'cked. Where armor suits, you lose your shield and still have 500 hp left; and even if you lose 1/2 yr armor; duck away and your SHIELDS (your 2ndary hp source), starts to repair as well as your armor.
So yes, as someone else said, even at 90 for complex that would work. One thing need to take into account, is that a COMPLEX shield, should offer more hp then a BASIC plate. As if take either my 100 or 90 as suggest at lv5 it equal to 99 or 110 hp . A basic plate w/ lv1 skilling is ~87 . So for an extra 900k SP in shielding, you can b/t 12-22 HP. I think that is quite fair
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Posted - 2014.02.27 01:16:00 -
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Killar-12 wrote:50/75/100 is a bit high on the Comp, maybe 50/70/90? Base shield Regen needs a huge buff on min suits though, around 25-30 HP/S
44, 55, 77
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
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Posted - 2014.02.27 01:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
STD: (85 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU, 3% penalty) vs (44 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU, 3% penalty)
ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 22 CPU, 4% penalty) vs (58 shields, 4 PG, 32 CPU, 4% penalty )
PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 30 CPU, 5% penalty) vs (72 shields, 7 PG, 55 CPU, 5% penalty)
The fittings are balanced at 1 pg=5 CPU, while the real average at prototype level of suit is 4.7-5.2 CPU per PG
The HP amounts are scaled the same from PRO-STD and PRO-ADV (same % change)
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Posted - 2014.02.27 01:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
My Caldari Scout agrees =]
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
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Posted - 2014.02.27 01:23:00 -
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Patrick57 wrote:My Caldari Scout agrees =]
its backwards that caldari get higher base shield AND higher native regeneration than minmitar suits in 1.8GǪ..
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
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Posted - 2014.02.27 03:43:00 -
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bump
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Berserker007
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Posted - 2014.02.27 03:55:00 -
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damnn, I got a topic bump , cool :)
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Kal Kronos
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Posted - 2014.02.27 03:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Any buff to shields is good in my books, even with these values you're still only 2-3 viziam shots away from death... I especially like the increase to the lower level extenders, those things are worthless.
What's not to love about the scrambler rifle, the thing is a precision weapon and at the same time a shotgun.
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Bojo The Mighty
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Posted - 2014.02.27 04:03:00 -
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Go ahead and buff shield tanking because all my SP is tied up in anti shield weaponry + I armor tank, fluxes don't hurt.
Secondly if you're going to go around buffing Shield extenders you gotta give props to Ferros and Reactives as well it's only fair.
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Berserker007
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Posted - 2014.02.27 04:03:00 -
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Kal Kronos wrote:Any buff to shields is good in my books, even with these values you're still only 2-3 viziam shots away from death... I especially like the increase to the lower level extenders, those things are worthless.
agreed. One reason I like the idea of higher lv proto extenders (90+) is that it will limit that "effectiveness" of CR and RR, b/c of the "negative" efficiency rating, and wish 3 proposed extenders = ~5 current extenders, it frees up space for customization, as well as making the ScR more desirable to combat shield tanking ... that is of course the effectiveness of "armor based" weaponry to shields is somehow reduce
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Berserker007
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Posted - 2014.02.27 04:06:00 -
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Bojo The Mighty wrote:Go ahead and buff shield tanking because all my SP is tied up in anti shield weaponry + I armor tank, fluxes don't hurt.
Secondly if you're going to go around buffing Shield extenders you gotta give props to Ferros and Reactives as well it's only fair.
I would have to disagree. If the only thing changed is the hp amount (and possible pg costs), it doesnt change how plates would work. If your armor tank you have 3 options to choose from. I could understand it if they made our proposed extenders additions that have the current penalty; and the current extenders have no penalty; then that'd work.
Otherwise, all'd be fine; as you could choose weather you'd want to have penalties tied into your hp boosts or not. If extenders were only changed and not added, it'd still be "fair"
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Posted - 2014.02.27 04:13:00 -
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Berserker007 wrote:
I would have to disagree. If the only thing changed is the hp amount (and possible pg costs), it doesnt change how plates would work. If your armor tank you have 3 options to choose from. I could understand it if they made our proposed extenders additions that have the current penalty; and the current extenders have no penalty; then that'd work.
Otherwise, all'd be fine; as you could choose weather you'd want to have penalties tied into your hp boosts or not. If extenders were only changed and not added, it'd still be "fair"
Well it wouldn't
There would no longer be any reason to use Ferroscales because at the values you propose, a shield extender would supply more HP that self regens without movement penalty with similar fitting costs at tier. Ferroscales do not self regen and currently they give a slightly higher HP buff over shield extenders for that very reason. Reactives do cause your entire pool of HP to regenerate, slowly, so it's natural that they give less HP.
You can't buff shield extender values without bringing up ferroscale values as well.
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
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Posted - 2014.02.27 04:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Go ahead and buff shield tanking because all my SP is tied up in anti shield weaponry + I armor tank, fluxes don't hurt.
Secondly if you're going to go around buffing Shield extenders you gotta give props to Ferros and Reactives as well it's only fair.
Proposed buff- lower fitting reqs than actual plates
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Berserker007
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Posted - 2014.02.27 04:24:00 -
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Bojo The Mighty wrote:Berserker007 wrote:
I would have to disagree. If the only thing changed is the hp amount (and possible pg costs), it doesnt change how plates would work. If your armor tank you have 3 options to choose from. I could understand it if they made our proposed extenders additions that have the current penalty; and the current extenders have no penalty; then that'd work.
Otherwise, all'd be fine; as you could choose weather you'd want to have penalties tied into your hp boosts or not. If extenders were only changed and not added, it'd still be "fair"
Well it wouldn't There would no longer be any reason to use Ferroscales because at the values you propose, a shield extender would supply more HP that self regens without movement penalty with similar fitting costs at tier. Ferroscales do not self regen and currently they give a slightly higher HP buff over shield extenders for that very reason. Reactives do cause your entire pool of HP to regenerate, slowly, so it's natural that they give less HP. You can't buff shield extender values without bringing up ferroscale values as well.
like I said at the end, instead of just buffing extenders; add the types that were proposed as a 2nd tier; that'd be equal to your original plates of 50/75/100 (85/115/135), that have the current delay penalty. Then make the current extenders like your ferroscale played w/ a "small buff to be like 30/53/66 (or something like that) w/ no penalty.
Then like plates, you have a high hp source w/ penalties, and a "low"/medium source w/o penalties
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Israckcatarac
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Posted - 2014.02.27 04:34:00 -
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Look's more like your trying to build the invincable caldari assaut. It's understandable every nerf/buff post is nothing more then the poster looking to gain the advantage in his/her prefrence of play. It's not a bad thing just a natural reaction to self preservation. |
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
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Posted - 2014.02.27 04:37:00 -
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Israckcatarac wrote:Look's more like your trying to build the invincable caldari assaut. It's understandable every nerf/buff post is nothing more then the poster looking to gain the advantage in his/her prefrence of play. It's not a bad thing just a natural reaction to self preservation.
no, its a common fact that armor>>shield on soooooo many levels that shields need some form of compensation. Better scaling, slightly more HP, better regen, better fitting reqs, etc. All of these in small quantities will help balance the disparity
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Berserker007
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Posted - 2014.02.27 04:41:00 -
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Israckcatarac wrote:Look's more like your trying to build the invincable caldari assaut. It's understandable every nerf/buff post is nothing more then the poster looking to gain the advantage in his/her prefrence of play. It's not a bad thing just a natural reaction to self preservation.
for a fact, I have both armor and shield tank in this game (armor tanked be4 it was a cool think do to, back when we have Vk.0 and Vk.1's). So in playing now; and just seeing what/how ever things are being built up; you can tell there is an advantage to armor, when you are seeing Caldari Vk.0's w/ something like 200-400 ARMOR, and like 25-3000 shield. It's b/c that the moment to compete w/ armor tankers, you need armor and damage mods in your high slots.
If shield tanking was to imbalanced like it use to be prior to major updates and such; people said plates needed some love; and slowly they got them; but at that point in the game most shield tanked anyway so it wasn't a big concern. Now, it is a major top tier balance concern up their w/ the AV-Vehicle imbalances.
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Posted - 2014.02.27 04:43:00 -
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I was discussing this very topic last night with my CEO. One of the major imbalances we were talking about ( Caldari assault vs Gallente assault) was that he (gallente) could fit his tank properly using advanced plates while i had to use complex extenders.
This creates a large imbalance with the amount of cpu/ pg left over to fit weapons and equipment etc. |
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Posted - 2014.02.27 05:07:00 -
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Berserker007 wrote:
like I said at the end, instead of just buffing extenders; add the types that were proposed as a 2nd tier; that'd be equal to your original plates of 50/75/100 (85/115/135), that have the current delay penalty. Then make the current extenders like your ferroscale played w/ a "small buff to be like 30/53/66 (or something like that) w/ no penalty.
Then like plates, you have a high hp source w/ penalties, and a "low"/medium source w/o penalties
If that's so you'd have to add a much heavier shield delay penalty to shield extenders because the current 6% is completely unnoticeable. Yet speed penalties are heavily felt because they are always in effect. Your shields are not constantly in recharge limbo.
Again I'm all for a shield buff because I find it difficult to compete with my anti-shield weapons when competing against these very overpowered combat rifles while I armor tank. (and even with shields the CR is OP don't deny it). The population is too heavily on the armor tank side and 1.8 needs to address this and I think the racial parity will help but even then.
But I still find it weird that you'd think that a regenerating pool of HP should outweigh the pool of a non-regenerating pool of HP (Ferros versus even your proposed changes to light and heavy shields)
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Berserker007
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Posted - 2014.02.27 05:09:00 -
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Bojo The Mighty wrote:Berserker007 wrote:
like I said at the end, instead of just buffing extenders; add the types that were proposed as a 2nd tier; that'd be equal to your original plates of 50/75/100 (85/115/135), that have the current delay penalty. Then make the current extenders like your ferroscale played w/ a "small buff to be like 30/53/66 (or something like that) w/ no penalty.
Then like plates, you have a high hp source w/ penalties, and a "low"/medium source w/o penalties
If that's so you'd have to add a much heavier shield delay penalty to shield extenders because the current 6% is completely unnoticeable. Yet speed penalties are heavily felt because they are always in effect. Your shields are not constantly in recharge limbo. Again I'm all for a shield buff because I find it difficult to compete with my anti-shield weapons when competing against these very overpowered combat rifles while I armor tank. (and even with shields the CR is OP don't deny it). The population is too heavily on the armor tank side and 1.8 needs to address this and I think the racial parity will help but even then. But I still find it weird that you'd think that a regenerating pool of HP should outweigh the pool of a non-regenerating pool of HP (Ferros versus even your proposed changes to light and heavy shields)
reason think this, is b/c shield tanking, your 1st line of defense if your primary, where armor; your 1st line of defense is your secondary hp source. That, and even though shields have innate regen, that all we have; where as armor; you have plates w/ regen, or repair modules; but you also have repair tools, and repair nano's . So it kinda of evens out in a sense
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Posted - 2014.02.27 05:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
as they stand i think shields can be viable if used 'properly' but i think that the shield skill extender skill shoudl be 5% per level not 2% and energizer/rechargers need buffing a little bit. especially seeing as the assault skill bonus is changing and the minmatar assault has always suffered a pretty poor shield tank.
or Option B - slightly 'nerf' energizers and rechargers but make them lowslots instead so shield assaults can benefit more from them,. a slight reduction to say base 50% shield recharge boost from a complex energize with a slightly higher shield hp penalty. players could stack them but suffer same stack penalty as damage mods ect BUT, tweak depleted delay (we cant have everything guys)
with the the first change it'd mean at proto level a caldari assault would get
262 base shields (with max shield upgrade
330 from 4 x complex extenders at max skills with new bonus applied (66*1.25)
the extra 25% boost would allow a plate to be dropped for a recharger without suffering too much.
or with the second option
262 base
290 with 4 x complex extenders (66*1.10)
but by moving the energizer/rechargers to lowslots you could fit 2 complex rechargers giving (i think) about 63% shield recharge boost with a spare lowslot for any PG/CPU mods needed but have the shield depleted delay put back upto 10secs on caldari 12 on minmatar but regulator modules boosted to
STD 20%
ADV 30%
PRO 40%
meaning with 2 regulators with bonus applied and stackign penalties you'd get (i think) 65% reduction to recharge delay
with stacking penalties and keeping the efficacy at 2%. that way you get to keep reasonable shield hp but lowslots determine balance of recharge speed or how soon after a fight they recharge and they play in to the racial play styles. caldari being slower and havign an extra low and higher base hp means move towards regulators to get the shields back sooner whereas minmatar being the faster can hit hard and move to cover with a longer recharge delay but concentrate on a fast regen for more hit/run style tactics
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Bojo The Mighty
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Posted - 2014.02.27 05:29:00 -
[36] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote: repair modules; but you also have repair tools, and repair nano's . So it kinda of evens out in a sense
I just want to say that repair tools and repair nanos are made by the shield tanked factions so they aren't necessarily for armor tankers.
And that if you dare to bring up repair modules compare the costs of fitting a repair module, an armor plate, and the resulting stats and compare them to adding two shield extenders. In order to match the abilities of shields you have to run either all reps to match it's regen abilities, or all plates to compensate for the lack there of.
Bojo - Adding chili powder to your experience since early times
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Kody Cole
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
60
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 05:32:00 -
[37] - Quote
anyone remember in cromazone when the shield recharge timer would start counting down as soon as you get hit and wouldn't reset even if you got hit again.
so you got 1or possibly more recharge tick back in the middle of a fight.
i believe this carried on a little bit into uprising .
i used the caldari assaut and put a recharger on and it was kinda op. i had about 500 shield and i got 50 back per tick every 3 sec, so in the ideal situation i could let my shield recharge a lot easer then now and have unlimited HP(worked most of the time)
im not saying put this back in. but it does show that you could make shields usable again by buffing the speed and amount your shield recharges without giving us extra HP. you should be able to stack a lot more armor but shield HP should come back way faster.
I also think CCP should tone down then buff the SR gets on shields
the fact people can 1 shot a caldari proto suit with 500 shields and 300 armor is really lame.
obviously keep the SR stronger against shields. but not so much.
shields already have to deal with flux grenades, no shield rep tool or shield rep hives and less hp then armor |
Obodiah Garro
Tech Guard
RISE of LEGION
723
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 06:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
shields cant be hit and run because when a shield tanker gets a weapon that lets them do just that, that noobs come out screaming that its overpowered.
Nemo me impune lacessit
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Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 06:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
What about an Ishukone Assault Suit. 477 EHP 203,415 isk which would obviously be more affordable with LP.
Ishukone RR
Ishukone SMG
Complex Shield Extender
Complex Shield Recharger (x2)
Complex Shield Energizer
Complex Cpu Upgrade
Complez Shield Regulator (x2)
Locus Grenade
With maxed skills it has 327 shields, 150 armor, 95.65/s shield recharge rate with 2.76 sec delay, and 5.49 depleted delay. I think that with this suit if you have cover or distance between your target it would be pretty challenging to kill you. I run a basic Gallenete medic with a exile rifle it's very similar in terms of HP/SD but reversed. With 148 Hp for shield and 332 HP for armor I do alright and I only have my dropsuit skills to level 3 for armor and 2 for shields.
Skill wise though I have 20/s shield recharge with a 7 sec delay and 10.3 sec depleted.
Duvolle Assualt Suit 141 shield 411 armor 552 EHP 213,390 isk
Duvolle Tactical AR
Carthum Assault Scrambler Pistol
Complex Light Damage Mod
Complex Shield Recharger
Complex Shield Energizer
Complex Armor Plate
Complex CPU Upgrade
Complex Armor Repair (x2)
Duvolle Quantum Active Scanner
So this suit would have a 59.99/s shield recharge rate, but it still has the 7 sec delay with a 10 sec depleted delay and finally a 12.5 HP armor repair rate.
I think the both suit are even at a distance but with cover you could put some pressure on the Gallente and force him to back up or searching for cover. The Gallente wants his shield back so his armor can repair uninhibited unfortunately for him that's going to take 7 seconds. If you chase him down he has no choice but to abandon his shields and if you get in range because for some odd reason you haven't killed him with a rail rifle you can switch to your Ishukone SMG and annihilate the Gallente. It's not completely in your favor if he's good with the Tac Ar and you have no cover chasing him/her could get you killed. |
ALT2 acc
128
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 06:57:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:What about an Ishukone Assault Suit. 477 EHP 203,415 isk which would obviously be more affordable with LP.
Ishukone RR
Ishukone SMG
Complex Shield Extender
Complex Shield Recharger (x2)
Complex Shield Energizer
Complex Cpu Upgrade
Complez Shield Regulator (x2)
Locus Grenade
With maxed skills it has 327 shields, 150 armor, 95.65/s shield recharge rate with 2.76 sec delay, and 5.49 depleted delay. I think that with this suit if you have cover or distance between your target it would be pretty challenging to kill you. I run a basic Gallenete medic with a exile rifle it's very similar in terms of HP/SD but reversed. With 148 Hp for shield and 332 HP for armor I do alright and I only have my dropsuit skills to level 3 for armor and 2 for shields.
Skill wise though I have 20/s shield recharge with a 7 sec delay and 10.3 sec depleted.
Duvolle Assualt Suit 141 shield 411 armor 552 EHP 213,390 isk
Duvolle Tactical AR
Carthum Assault Scrambler Pistol
Complex Light Damage Mod
Complex Shield Recharger
Complex Shield Energizer
Complex Armor Plate
Complex CPU Upgrade
Complex Armor Repair (x2)
Duvolle Quantum Active Scanner
So this suit would have a 59.99/s shield recharge rate, but it still has the 7 sec delay with a 10 sec depleted delay and finally a 12.5 HP armor repair rate.
I think the both suit are even at a distance but with cover you could put some pressure on the Gallente and force him to back up or searching for cover. The Gallente wants his shield back so his armor can repair uninhibited unfortunately for him that's going to take 7 seconds. If you chase him down he has no choice but to abandon his shields and if you get in range because for some odd reason you haven't killed him with a rail rifle you can switch to your Ishukone SMG and annihilate the Gallente. It's not completely in your favor if he's good with the Tac Ar and you have no cover chasing him/her could get you killed.
Replace 2 rechargers with another energuser and a extender...
Hater attractor proficiency 5, hater attractor optimization 5.
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|
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lowratehitman
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
1021
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 07:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
I stopped running my Min Proto assault and went to the Min Advanced Logi , it is a heap cheaper, and right now, their is NO benefit running the Proto assault... being how 3 hits from a rifle takes you down. |
Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
116
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 07:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
ALT2 acc wrote:Ld Collins wrote:What about an Ishukone Assault Suit. 477 EHP 203,415 isk which would obviously be more affordable with LP.
Ishukone RR
Ishukone SMG
Complex Shield Extender
Complex Shield Recharger (x2)
Complex Shield Energizer
Complex Cpu Upgrade
Complez Shield Regulator (x2)
Locus Grenade
With maxed skills it has 327 shields, 150 armor, 95.65/s shield recharge rate with 2.76 sec delay, and 5.49 depleted delay. I think that with this suit if you have cover or distance between your target it would be pretty challenging to kill you. I run a basic Gallenete medic with a exile rifle it's very similar in terms of HP/SD but reversed. With 148 Hp for shield and 332 HP for armor I do alright and I only have my dropsuit skills to level 3 for armor and 2 for shields.
Skill wise though I have 20/s shield recharge with a 7 sec delay and 10.3 sec depleted.
Duvolle Assualt Suit 141 shield 411 armor 552 EHP 213,390 isk
Duvolle Tactical AR
Carthum Assault Scrambler Pistol
Complex Light Damage Mod
Complex Shield Recharger
Complex Shield Energizer
Complex Armor Plate
Complex CPU Upgrade
Complex Armor Repair (x2)
Duvolle Quantum Active Scanner
So this suit would have a 59.99/s shield recharge rate, but it still has the 7 sec delay with a 10 sec depleted delay and finally a 12.5 HP armor repair rate.
I think the both suit are even at a distance but with cover you could put some pressure on the Gallente and force him to back up or searching for cover. The Gallente wants his shield back so his armor can repair uninhibited unfortunately for him that's going to take 7 seconds. If you chase him down he has no choice but to abandon his shields and if you get in range because for some odd reason you haven't killed him with a rail rifle you can switch to your Ishukone SMG and annihilate the Gallente. It's not completely in your favor if he's good with the Tac Ar and you have no cover chasing him/her could get you killed. Replace 2 rechargers with another energuser and a extender...
You would get 65 more shield, 542 EHP and 84.48 shield rep. The delay would stay the same except for depleted delay it would go from 5.49 to 7.06 and you could fit a K-2 nanohive. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
10124
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 07:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Berserker007 wrote:
I would have to disagree. If the only thing changed is the hp amount (and possible pg costs), it doesnt change how plates would work. If your armor tank you have 3 options to choose from. I could understand it if they made our proposed extenders additions that have the current penalty; and the current extenders have no penalty; then that'd work.
Otherwise, all'd be fine; as you could choose weather you'd want to have penalties tied into your hp boosts or not. If extenders were only changed and not added, it'd still be "fair"
Well it wouldn't There would no longer be any reason to use Ferroscales because at the values you propose, a shield extender would supply more HP that self regens without movement penalty with similar fitting costs at tier. Ferroscales do not self regen and currently they give a slightly higher HP buff over shield extenders for that very reason. Reactives do cause your entire pool of HP to regenerate, slowly, so it's natural that they give less HP. You can't buff shield extender values without bringing up ferroscale values as well. like I said at the end, instead of just buffing extenders; add the types that were proposed as a 2nd tier; that'd be equal to your original plates of 50/75/100 (85/115/135), that have the current delay penalty. Then make the current extenders like your ferroscale played w/ a "small buff to be like 30/53/66 (or something like that) w/ no penalty. Then like plates, you have a high hp source w/ penalties, and a "low"/medium source w/o penalties
Why does the depleted delay penalty matter that much? With ferroscales, they don't regenerate at all. With shields, they regenerate at a rapid rate. Why is a slowing to the recharge rate worth a HP advantage over something that doesn't regen at all?
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
3287
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 12:18:00 -
[44] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:Shield are just to weak, and the recharge is so slow/not enough to compared with that of armor.
You can leave now.
No.
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Nirwanda Vaughns
Death Firm.
370
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 12:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Berserker007 wrote:Shield are just to weak, and the recharge is so slow/not enough to compared with that of armor. You can leave now.
yeah comparing shield recharge to armor recharge is dumb. sure armor reps constantly but even on a proto amarr logi you'd have to use all the low slots to get the armor repping the same as an assault (with current skills) and then in 1.8 the most we'll get is 6hps per complex rep mod and them things take a lot of PG/CPU for what they do, plus everyone keeps saying armor is so great but trust me. when you're plated up the speed penalty is nasty, your as slow as a heavy with half the EHP
Rolling with the punches
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
989
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 23:18:00 -
[46] - Quote
straya fox wrote:I was discussing this very topic last night with my CEO. One of the major imbalances we were talking about ( Caldari assault vs Gallente assault) was that he (gallente) could fit his tank properly using advanced plates while i had to use complex extenders.
This creates a large imbalance with the amount of cpu/ pg left over to fit weapons and equipment etc.
its such an understated problem, I'm not surprised it hasn't been addressed. Shields cost a ridiculous amount of resources, while with armor, you can get better HP with a lower penalty for an almost non existent fitting cost
Kills- Archduke Ferdinand
Balance!
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
989
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 23:19:00 -
[47] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Berserker007 wrote:Shield are just to weak, and the recharge is so slow/not enough to compared with that of armor. You can leave now. yeah comparing shield recharge to armor recharge is dumb. sure armor reps constantly but even on a proto amarr logi you'd have to use all the low slots to get the armor repping the same as an assault (with current skills) and then in 1.8 the most we'll get is 6hps per complex rep mod and them things take a lot of PG/CPU for what they do, plus everyone keeps saying armor is so great but trust me. when you're plated up the speed penalty is nasty, your as slow as a heavy with half the EHP
I think he's saying that if armor has no delay, only a small amount less repair and hugely more HP, there is imbalance, which is true
Kills- Archduke Ferdinand
Balance!
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
10161
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 23:21:00 -
[48] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Berserker007 wrote:Shield are just to weak, and the recharge is so slow/not enough to compared with that of armor. You can leave now. yeah comparing shield recharge to armor recharge is dumb. sure armor reps constantly but even on a proto amarr logi you'd have to use all the low slots to get the armor repping the same as an assault (with current skills) and then in 1.8 the most we'll get is 6hps per complex rep mod and them things take a lot of PG/CPU for what they do, plus everyone keeps saying armor is so great but trust me. when you're plated up the speed penalty is nasty, your as slow as a heavy with half the EHP I think he's saying that if armor has no delay, only a small amount less repair and hugely more HP, there is imbalance, which is true
It's not 'a small amount less repair', though.
With a complex module, taking up a ton of PG/CPU, you get 6.25 HP/s. Even the lower shield regens are 20+ at base, without any modules or skills. That's at the low end.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
989
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 23:31:00 -
[49] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Berserker007 wrote:Shield are just to weak, and the recharge is so slow/not enough to compared with that of armor. You can leave now. yeah comparing shield recharge to armor recharge is dumb. sure armor reps constantly but even on a proto amarr logi you'd have to use all the low slots to get the armor repping the same as an assault (with current skills) and then in 1.8 the most we'll get is 6hps per complex rep mod and them things take a lot of PG/CPU for what they do, plus everyone keeps saying armor is so great but trust me. when you're plated up the speed penalty is nasty, your as slow as a heavy with half the EHP I think he's saying that if armor has no delay, only a small amount less repair and hugely more HP, there is imbalance, which is true It's not 'a small amount less repair', though. With a complex module, taking up a ton of PG/CPU, you get 6.25 HP/s. Even the lower shield regens are 20+ at base, without any modules or skills. That's at the low end.
Lets take a minmitar assault and compare to a gal assault with 2x reppers (thats what most people say they use, even though i don't believe them). minmitar have a 15 second delay, and will probably stack 4x extenders and 1x damage mod, for a 28% reduction, so 19.2 seconds. Gal has 5x2x1.1=11 armor per second, whereas min assault has 25 shield per second (i believe)
in the 19.2 seconds it takes the min assault to even start regaining shield, the gallente has gained 11*19.2=211 armor, and their rate of armor resupply is not affected by outside pressures. minmitar, however, to gain 210 shield, must wait 19.2+210/25 seconds or 27.6 seconds (8.4 once regen comes on). The gallente assault can stack 3x damage mods, 2x adv plates, and comes away with more damage, more HP, better regen, more CPU/PG, and 6% less speed (wootwoot).
Balance?
Tell me what you think. I made a post earlier about tentative shield changes that equalize the disparity while keeping armor and shields as 2 different and unique sources of HP, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. Ill attach it here
Kills- Archduke Ferdinand
Balance!
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Berserker007
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
472
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 01:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Berserker007 wrote:Shield are just to weak, and the recharge is so slow/not enough to compared with that of armor. You can leave now. yeah comparing shield recharge to armor recharge is dumb. sure armor reps constantly but even on a proto amarr logi you'd have to use all the low slots to get the armor repping the same as an assault (with current skills) and then in 1.8 the most we'll get is 6hps per complex rep mod and them things take a lot of PG/CPU for what they do, plus everyone keeps saying armor is so great but trust me. when you're plated up the speed penalty is nasty, your as slow as a heavy with half the EHP I think he's saying that if armor has no delay, only a small amount less repair and hugely more HP, there is imbalance, which is true
what i meant was, that even though armor have no innate repair (as of 1.8 believe, except for the built in for the certain plate type), they have other ways/abilities to repair their main hp source, where shield only have the recharge.
Now correct me if im wrong, but more or less, the moment you stop taking damage to your armor; your reppers kick in, correct? If you look at shields, any damage taken to shield during the repair causes the delay and recharge to start all over.
Then take into account repair tools and triage hives; you can have a sustained amount of repairs (w/ a buddy, or even yrself if u have the repping hives). So by adding in exterior forces, your repair rate can exceed that of a shield suit.
Guess forgot this community isn't "able" to read b/t the lines, and infer based on their own knowledge
Closed Beta Vet
Mordu's Trials Winner
Original IMP
|
|
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
TRA1LBLAZERS
990
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 03:58:00 -
[51] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Berserker007 wrote:Shield are just to weak, and the recharge is so slow/not enough to compared with that of armor. You can leave now. yeah comparing shield recharge to armor recharge is dumb. sure armor reps constantly but even on a proto amarr logi you'd have to use all the low slots to get the armor repping the same as an assault (with current skills) and then in 1.8 the most we'll get is 6hps per complex rep mod and them things take a lot of PG/CPU for what they do, plus everyone keeps saying armor is so great but trust me. when you're plated up the speed penalty is nasty, your as slow as a heavy with half the EHP I think he's saying that if armor has no delay, only a small amount less repair and hugely more HP, there is imbalance, which is true what i meant was, that even though armor have no innate repair (as of 1.8 believe, except for the built in for the certain plate type), they have other ways/abilities to repair their main hp source, where shield only have the recharge. Now correct me if im wrong, but more or less, the moment you stop taking damage to your armor; your reppers kick in, correct? If you look at shields, any damage taken to shield during the repair causes the delay and recharge to start all over. Then take into account repair tools and triage hives; you can have a sustained amount of repairs (w/ a buddy, or even yrself if u have the repping hives). So by adding in exterior forces, your repair rate can exceed that of a shield suit. Guess forgot this community isn't "able" to read b/t the lines, and infer based on their own knowledge
read my above post
Kills- Archduke Ferdinand
Balance!
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Berserker007
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
473
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 04:11:00 -
[52] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:
read my above post
I know, my reply wasn't aimed at you ... I was just lazy and didn't wana edit posts out :P
Closed Beta Vet
Mordu's Trials Winner
Original IMP
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darkiller240
WarRavens
League of Infamy
470
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 07:16:00 -
[53] - Quote
What about vehicles shield t
their still no way near as good as amour
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
6889
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 07:54:00 -
[54] - Quote
Good job.
You just killed armor tanking, and my Caldari asssault would be my new Go To suit.
We cannot stack plates, we use armor reapirers, the HP difference is tiny.
The only oddity are logis, which are getting fixed.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 08:27:00 -
[55] - Quote
Why shield tank a Minmatar assault against a Gallente assault when you could have a Min Assault with
Six Kin Assault Combat rifle
Six Kin SMG
Complex Precision Enhancer (x3)
Complex Light Damage Mod (x2)
Complex Armor Plate
Complex Reactive Plate
Flux Grenade
Triage Repair tool
570 EHP 187 Shield 383 Armor 28.98 db scan precision 15 meter radius armor rep rate of 3 but with that scan precision you should be able to avoid people.
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ALT2 acc
154
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 08:32:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:Why shield tank a Minmatar assault against a Gallente assault when you could have a Min Assault with
Six Kin Assault Combat rifle
Six Kin SMG
Complex Precision Enhancer (x3)
Complex Light Damage Mod (x2)
Complex Armor Plate
Complex Reactive Plate
Flux Grenade
Triage Repair tool
570 EHP 187 Shield 383 Armor 28.98 db scan precision 15 meter radius armor rep rate of 3 but with that scan precision you should be able to avoid people.
Thats a TERRIBLE fit...
Hater attractor proficiency 5, hater attractor optimization 5.
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Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 08:35:00 -
[57] - Quote
ALT2 acc wrote:Ld Collins wrote:Why shield tank a Minmatar assault against a Gallente assault when you could have a Min Assault with
Six Kin Assault Combat rifle
Six Kin SMG
Complex Precision Enhancer (x3)
Complex Light Damage Mod (x2)
Complex Armor Plate
Complex Reactive Plate
Flux Grenade
Triage Repair tool
570 EHP 187 Shield 383 Armor 28.98 db scan precision 15 meter radius armor rep rate of 3 but with that scan precision you should be able to avoid people.
Thats a TERRIBLE fit...
How so its 570 EHP and it rips armor? You could swap it to 2 complex plates its 653 EHP but no reps you also sacrifice movement speed which would make you less effective in cqc. |
ALT2 acc
155
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 09:01:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:Ld Collins wrote:Why shield tank a Minmatar assault against a Gallente assault when you could have a Min Assault with
Six Kin Assault Combat rifle
Six Kin SMG
Complex Precision Enhancer (x3)
Complex Light Damage Mod (x2)
Complex Armor Plate
Complex Reactive Plate
Flux Grenade
Triage Repair tool
570 EHP 187 Shield 383 Armor 28.98 db scan precision 15 meter radius armor rep rate of 3 but with that scan precision you should be able to avoid people.
Thats a TERRIBLE fit... How so its 570 EHP and it rips armor? You could swap it to 2 complex plates its 653 EHP but no reps you also sacrifice movement speed which would make you less effective in cqc. It also lets you swap a boundless MD and Core Flaylock Pistol no scanner needed Flux and let it rip. I think you should use every slot you possibly can, you can also swap one enhancer for a shield extender 690 Ehp still no reps and you shield delay takes a hit and you have no reps.
Ths modules are ****
Remove rep tool or not
Replace all high slots with extenders and 1 damage mod
Replace reactive plate for a rep, just 2 plates and a rep in your lows...
Hater attractor proficiency 5, hater attractor optimization 5.
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Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 09:18:00 -
[59] - Quote
ALT2 acc wrote:Ld Collins wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:Ld Collins wrote:Why shield tank a Minmatar assault against a Gallente assault when you could have a Min Assault with
Six Kin Assault Combat rifle
Six Kin SMG
Complex Precision Enhancer (x3)
Complex Light Damage Mod (x2)
Complex Armor Plate
Complex Reactive Plate
Flux Grenade
Triage Repair tool
570 EHP 187 Shield 383 Armor 28.98 db scan precision 15 meter radius armor rep rate of 3 but with that scan precision you should be able to avoid people.
Thats a TERRIBLE fit... How so its 570 EHP and it rips armor? You could swap it to 2 complex plates its 653 EHP but no reps you also sacrifice movement speed which would make you less effective in cqc. It also lets you swap a boundless MD and Core Flaylock Pistol no scanner needed Flux and let it rip. I think you should use every slot you possibly can, you can also swap one enhancer for a shield extender 690 Ehp still no reps and you shield delay takes a hit and you have no reps. Ths modules are **** Remove rep tool or not Replace all high slots with extenders and 1 damage mod Replace reactive plate for a rep, just 2 plates and a rep in your lows...
Ok but the post was complaining about shields not being effective because they dont rep as fast as armor anyway so why put more shields if its ineffective?
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ALT2 acc
155
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 09:25:00 -
[60] - Quote
brick tank, thats why
Hater attractor proficiency 5, hater attractor optimization 5.
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Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 09:28:00 -
[61] - Quote
ALT2 acc wrote:brick tank, thats why
Furthermore, any suit that comes near you they will light up like a Christmas tree and whether you get scanned doesn't even matter. You have mid ranged weapons too anyone who gets close to you flux nade them then drop all their armor. |
ALT2 acc
155
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 09:32:00 -
[62] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:brick tank, thats why Furthermore, any suit that comes near you they will light up like a Christmas tree and whether you get scanned doesn't even matter. You have mid ranged weapons too anyone who gets close to you flux nade them then drop all their armor.
Ok, replace 1 precision enhancer with a extender and 1 damage mod for an extender or energiser
Hater attractor proficiency 5, hater attractor optimization 5.
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Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 09:33:00 -
[63] - Quote
ALT2 acc wrote:Ld Collins wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:brick tank, thats why Furthermore, any suit that comes near you they will light up like a Christmas tree and whether you get scanned doesn't even matter. You have mid ranged weapons too anyone who gets close to you flux nade them then drop all their armor. Ok, replace 1 precision enhancer with a extender and 1 damage mod for an extender or energiser
sorry but you also cant fit 2 plates and a rep on a min assault i didn't catch you on that earlier. |
ALT2 acc
155
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 09:36:00 -
[64] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:Ld Collins wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:brick tank, thats why Furthermore, any suit that comes near you they will light up like a Christmas tree and whether you get scanned doesn't even matter. You have mid ranged weapons too anyone who gets close to you flux nade them then drop all their armor. Ok, replace 1 precision enhancer with a extender and 1 damage mod for an extender or energiser sorry but you also cant fit 2 plates and a rep on a min assault i didn't catch you on that earlier.
Why not
Hater attractor proficiency 5, hater attractor optimization 5.
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Gabriel Ceja
Knights of Eternal Darkness
League of Infamy
1
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Posted - 2014.02.28 09:44:00 -
[65] - Quote
This post, I like it.
My tank is my dropsuit, it's kinda like your dropsuit...umm Only bigger, but just a little. :)
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Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
117
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Posted - 2014.02.28 09:44:00 -
[66] - Quote
ALT2 acc wrote:Ld Collins wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:Ld Collins wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:brick tank, thats why Furthermore, any suit that comes near you they will light up like a Christmas tree and whether you get scanned doesn't even matter. You have mid ranged weapons too anyone who gets close to you flux nade them then drop all their armor. Ok, replace 1 precision enhancer with a extender and 1 damage mod for an extender or energiser sorry but you also cant fit 2 plates and a rep on a min assault i didn't catch you on that earlier. Why not
5 high 2 low |
Johnny Guilt
Algintal Core
529
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 09:44:00 -
[67] - Quote
Anyone notice the shields extenders have a fitting pattern?
22/44/66
3xbasic extenders = 1 complex
2xbasic extenders = 1 adv
1xbasic extender = 1 basic
50/75/100 doesnt follow it
if you wanted to have a realistic numbers and have complex extender at 100(or close to it) it would look like
33/66/99
but it get 99 if ccp didnt program the deciamls in
id go with:
35/70/ 105
or
40/80/120
since it breaks even without and decimals
A strange game.
The only winning move is
not to play.
|
ALT2 acc
155
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Posted - 2014.02.28 09:50:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:Ld Collins wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:Ld Collins wrote:
Furthermore, any suit that comes near you they will light up like a Christmas tree and whether you get scanned doesn't even matter. You have mid ranged weapons too anyone who gets close to you flux nade them then drop all their armor.
Ok, replace 1 precision enhancer with a extender and 1 damage mod for an extender or energiser sorry but you also cant fit 2 plates and a rep on a min assault i didn't catch you on that earlier. Why not 5 high 2 low
Ok then ditch the reactive plate for complex rep, 2 or 3 hp/s is laughable
Hater attractor proficiency 5, hater attractor optimization 5.
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Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 09:55:00 -
[69] - Quote
ALT2 acc wrote:
Ok then ditch the reactive plate for complex rep, 2 or 3 hp/s is laughable
you cant fit the complex rep with the complex armor plate with 4 complex extenders and a complex damage mod with the six kin combat rifle and smg 462/420 cpu and 89/84 pg |
ALT2 acc
155
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 10:00:00 -
[70] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:
Ok then ditch the reactive plate for complex rep, 2 or 3 hp/s is laughable
you cant fit the complex rep with the complex armor plate with 4 complex extenders and a complex damage mod with the six kin combat rifle and smg 462/420 cpu and 89/84 pg
Use a adv armor plate and no one said use 4 extenders...3 or SACRIFICE something, like your proto smg..........
Hater attractor proficiency 5, hater attractor optimization 5.
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Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 10:18:00 -
[71] - Quote
ALT2 acc wrote:Ld Collins wrote:ALT2 acc wrote:
Ok then ditch the reactive plate for complex rep, 2 or 3 hp/s is laughable
you cant fit the complex rep with the complex armor plate with 4 complex extenders and a complex damage mod with the six kin combat rifle and smg 462/420 cpu and 89/84 pg Use a adv armor plate and no one said use 4 extenders...3 or SACRIFICE something, like your proto smg..........
I don't want to sacrifice that's why i like the fit. I have the best mid range damage I could do and the best cqc damage. If im in a squad i can make myself useful and rep people. |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
625
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 11:40:00 -
[72] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:STD: (85 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU, 3% penalty) vs (44 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU, 3% penalty)
ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 22 CPU, 4% penalty) vs (58 shields, 4 PG, 32 CPU, 4% penalty )
PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 30 CPU, 5% penalty) vs (72 shields, 7 PG, 55 CPU, 5% penalty)
The fittings are balanced at 1 pg=5 CPU, while the real average at prototype level of suit is 4.7-5.2 CPU per PG
The HP amounts are scaled the same from PRO-STD and PRO-ADV (same % change)
Also, nerf gallente and ammarr shield regen/delay/depleted by 50%, and buff caldari like they are in the next patch, and then make minmitar shield recharge/delay/depleted delay 15% better than caldari in 1.8
Your supposed number may work but you have to consider that shield stats on caldari and minmatar will get a buff in 1.8 while gallente amarr will get a nerf. I think this will be enough.
And even with your reasonable numbers something needs to be done with ferroscales and reactive plates.
Armor is way less OP as most think. Armor has NO selfrepair (ok gallente get a small self regen with 1.8) while shields have very good regen (in 1.8 even better) that alone would be enough to balance things out. But we still get penalties the extender penalty can easily completely compensated through a module that does not reduce shield HP (regulators go to a low slot)
Armor penalty can at best partly compensated through a module that goes to same slot like armor modules (=reduced health).
Just to be clear Plates reduces:
-jump capability
-base speed, strafe speed
-Sprint speed can be compensated by loosing potential health
Extenders reduces
-shield depleted delay can be compensated without loosing potential health
Just to be clear speed is a HUGE advantage. Speed is even more of an advantage than a few hp even a complex plate just gives you 5 bullets from an AR thats 0.4 seconds more time before death to regenerate that amount of HP you would need
~24 seconds with one proto repper. An assault would loose 0,25 m/s base speed that's roughly the speed difference to a logi and quite noticeable.
A proto cal assault would regen 144 HP in ~9,6 secs or in 13.75 secs if shields go down to 0 (assuming two complex extenders). Thats quite a difference.
I honestly think proto extenders are fine but std and adv need a buff 33/44/66 seems reasonable (I don't think shields and armor need the same scaling)
But I agree to your CPU/PG numbers! |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
1924
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 12:00:00 -
[73] - Quote
This idea is a very random buff to shields without any consideration of armor suits. Currently an armor suit just barely gets an HP advantage over shields simply because the tiers are not balanced well, and damage mods it's always damage mods.
At basic level a shield extender gives 22 hp vs 85 from a plate. A basic suit has 2 slots so a Caldari suit would have 254 HP in shields a Gallente would have 380 HP in armor, that is without repair and with the speed penalty. A 35% HP difference. This is a pretty balanced case if damage mods did not exist. And at that level the speed penalty is pretty fair and not crippling whatsoever. At proto level this balance is gravely broken as achieving the balance above is impossible moving at 20% lowers speeds for that 30% HP difference is not worth it whatsoever and in this case the balance breaks. At this point buffing shields is definitely not a good idea as it would make them OP vs armor in the proto level.
I think the best course of action is to remove the shield delay completely and leave the shield depleted delay as it is for 1.8 stats. Then give all suits a scaled armor repair starting at 0 for the Caldari or whoever had the highest shield repair etc. Then slightly buffing shield repair but having it cycle every 3 seconds, so at 30 hp/s you get 90 on every cycle (no mod should lower the cycle delay). All this WITHOUT buffing shield extenders except the enhanced variant. As for armor, buffing armor repairers to be slightly slower then shield would be more than adequate to not make shields the only viable active tank. And reactive plates to 27/54/81 with repairs 15% lower than the average of shield tanked suits repair, keeping the penalties of speed. (To lazy to do ferro scale)
Now you have shields being viable hit and run suits that focus on maximizing damage to shields while minimizing damage that overloads the shields (depleted). And armor still being the high HP but slow as a snail in syrup fit. But armor could also ride a passive tank fit that is less efficient than a shield suit but still viable in its own way. As for damage mods why not just move them to the side arm slot. Sacrifice your side armor for more main weapons damage. No suit can abuse the crap out of them and logis can't use them at all.
For the Federation!
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Berserker007
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
476
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 16:46:00 -
[74] - Quote
ok, ima make an attempt to reply to people; but all I ask is cut me some slack atm, as I didn't sleep at all last night (literally been up 24hrs), so I feel like complete sh*t right now.
1). Yes, armor has no "innate" repair; though since haven't seen the changes of 1.8 that may be altered now. However, you do have repping plates, repair modules, repair nanohives, repair tool as which help boost your repair that and repairs even while taking fire. Shields, have the recharge rate and that alone, and the delay occurs each time and damage is taken
2). Reason I have # at 50/75/110, besides a simple skill bonus calc factor, was it makes basic and adv extenders worth it. It allows NEW PLAYERS who shield tank not to get ass fu*k right off the bat of a 40-60 hp health difference right off the bat. That and remember, even if I said wanted shields to be at 200hp at proto level, it wouldn't really mean much b/c of the FLUX grenade, as at 12k SP no matter your shield suit or amount it drops to 0 anyway
3). This be a long "answer", as will have an example, so stay with me .... Saying that armor tanking won't be viable if my ideas are done .....ex:.....
Caldari Assault Vk0
Complex Extenders x2 (220hp 125 delay, 100/14)
Complex Recharger (48% , 90/0)
Complex damage mod (58/9)
Kal RR (76/14)
Toxin smg (14/3)
Flux grenade (12/2)
Ishni Nano (44/11)
Complex Regulator (44% , 35/3)
Basic Armor Repair (20/1)
Basic CPU upgrade
This example gives you 482 shield & 150 armor = 632 ehp w/ 1 damage mod, w/ a 36 shield recharge amount, w/ ~3sec delay, ~4 sec depleted delay
Gallente Assault Vk0
Complex Plate (149hp, 30/12)
Enhanced Plate (127, 20/6)
Advanced Repair (5 [as would want reps changed to 2-4-6]... 35/5)
Militia CPU Upgrade
Allotek Nanohive (66,16)
Flux Grenade (12/2)
Toxin smg (14/3)
Boundless CR (74/8)
Complex Extender (110, 50/7)
Complex Damage Mod x2 (116/18)
This suit has 538 armor & 260 shield = 799 ehp w/ 2 damade mods
So, in this type of setup, you get 167 more ehp and 2nd damage mod in the armor tanked suit, along w/ a base 5hp armor regen, and a "combo" hive of giving you ammo and 40armor per sec, so in time a shield takes to start its complete delay, with a allotek hive down, you'd recover ~40% of your armor. How is it that armor wouldn't be able to compete w/ my said changes again?
4). Also remember, as said before, one flux grenade and it doesn't matter for shield, you are essentially dead, as if get hit by a flux that person is right there w/in 10m so it'd be 1-2 shots/bursts of a gun and you are dead. With that said, as it implies, shield tankers main buffer is their primary hp source; whereas armor tankers initial buffer is their 2ndary source, which based on my alterations is 1/2 that of a shield tankers primary buffer source. So, lets say both players do 470 damage to each other, shield are gone leaving you 150 armor hp ; where as the armor suit still have 328 armor hp. You have twice the hp source left, along w/ having your armor rep asap, and can thrown down a supplied hive to be at almost full armor once the shield tankers shields even start to regen; so you'd be looking at 150 hp vs 490hp
To be continued when I can properly think
Closed Beta Vet
Mordu's Trials Winner
Original IMP
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
10171
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 18:21:00 -
[75] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:ok, ima make an attempt to reply to people; but all I ask is cut me some slack atm, as I didn't sleep at all last night (literally been up 24hrs), so I feel like complete sh*t right now.
Fair enough. Don't feel pressed to respond -right now-, though. It won't make a difference in the long run, so get some sleep and make some better points later.
I am, however, opposed to this level of buff. Let me explain why.
Quote:
1). Yes, armor has no "innate" repair; though since haven't seen the changes of 1.8 that may be altered now. However, you do have repping plates, repair modules, repair nanohives, repair tool as which help boost your repair that and repairs even while taking fire. Shields, have the recharge rate and that alone, and the delay occurs each time and damage is taken
All of these methods require large amounts of fitting resources and slots. Even after that, they tend to be inferior to shield recharge unless you go full potato with them (that is to say, fitting a ton of modules). A rudimentary shield recharger will put anything but Commando regen comfortably out of passive armour regen methods. Repping plates are hilariously bad, and the only time I've ever really seen them used are on scouts where slots are limited.
Logistics support is an area where shields definitely falls down in comparison to armour. That's a shame, given that this is a 'tactical' shooter, but rather than giving individual shield tanks extremely large buffs would it not be better to address the lack of team support? The idea of having rep tools jump start regen has been relatively quiet on the forums, but I feel it would be a good addition to the game.
Quote:
2). Reason I have # at 50/75/110, besides a simple skill bonus calc factor, was it makes basic and adv extenders worth it. It allows NEW PLAYERS who shield tank not to get ass fu*k right off the bat of a 40-60 hp health difference right off the bat. That and remember, even if I said wanted shields to be at 200hp at proto level, it wouldn't really mean much b/c of the FLUX grenade, as at 12k SP no matter your shield suit or amount it drops to 0 anyway
I absolutely agree with the need to not screw new players over in terms of HP values like they are now, but this is a drastic, drastic buff at the high end as well. What is the justification for the large complex buff? It's not the new players, that's much more to do with the high end. Although TTK is low at present, it's apparently being adjusted in the next patch, so that's not the reason either.
The flux grenade is irrelevant. A flux grenade will not kill you. A locus grenade will kill an armour tanker - a core will drop full HP to zero unless it is a heavy. A correctly cooked standard locus grenade is capable of the same feat on the majority of armour tankers, bar the ludicrously tanked Gallogis.
Quote:
3). This be a long "answer", as will have an example, so stay with me .... Saying that armor tanking won't be viable if my ideas are done .....ex:.....
Caldari Assault Vk0
Complex Extenders x2 (220hp 125 delay, 100/14)
Complex Recharger (48% , 90/0)
Complex damage mod (58/9)
Kal RR (76/14)
Toxin smg (14/3)
Flux grenade (12/2)
Ishni Nano (44/11)
Complex Regulator (44% , 35/3)
Basic Armor Repair (20/1)
Basic CPU upgrade
This example gives you 482 shield & 150 armor = 632 ehp w/ 1 damage mod, w/ a 36 shield recharge amount, w/ ~3sec delay, ~4 sec depleted delay
Gallente Assault Vk0
Complex Plate (149hp, 30/12)
Enhanced Plate (127, 20/6)
Advanced Repair (5 [as would want reps changed to 2-4-6]... 35/5)
Militia CPU Upgrade
Allotek Nanohive (66,16)
Flux Grenade (12/2)
Toxin smg (14/3)
Boundless CR (74/8)
Complex Extender (110, 50/7)
Complex Damage Mod x2 (116/18)
This suit has 538 armor & 260 shield = 799 ehp w/ 2 damade mods
So, in this type of setup, you get 167 more ehp and 2nd damage mod in the armor tanked suit, along w/ a base 5hp armor regen, and a "combo" hive of giving you ammo and 40armor per sec, so in time a shield takes to start its complete delay, with a allotek hive down, you'd recover ~40% of your armor. How is it that armor wouldn't be able to compete w/ my said changes again?
Because an allotek hive is completely stationary and vulnerable. The splash from a mass driver will kill it, three stray bullets will kill it, any grenade within 6m, even right on the edge, will kill it. It also chains you to the hive - if you leave the hive, you don't get those benefits. If you stand on the hive, you can get grenaded with ease.
Certainly, it is a useful item but you are overestimating its usefulness given its vulnerability - especially after the 1.8 equipment nerfs, it is not a reliable source of regen.
Without that, the armour tanker is much slower, cannot strafe as fast (there is a 16% strafe penalty on that) and has a much, much slower regen. 5 HP/s is hardly anything, especially as the base regen for a Callassault is looking to be 40 HP/s (median between the 50 HP/s scout and 30 HP/s heavy, presumed reasonable given the similar changes across the board). Provided that is the case (and I would support that, as I feel that shield regen should be markedly superior to armour regen given the EHP trades) that fit has almost 60 HP/s regen once the regen kicks in.
Damage mods are not likely to be very useful after the 1.8 changes - they are reportedly likely to be nerfed, although there's nothing solid on the matter. You may be valuing them too highly.
Also, those fits are not really ideal. The comparisons are loaded - you're shield tanking that Gallente assault partially, so why use it as an example in a shield vs armour comparison?
Given the possible new regen value for the Callassault, you may not need that recharger. That leaves you with 625 shield HP at 40 HP/s with a 3/4 delay, a damage mod, and an unhindered speed.
TBC
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
10171
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 18:28:00 -
[76] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
Also, those fits are not really ideal. The comparisons are loaded - you're shield tanking that Gallente assault partially, so why use it as an example in a shield vs armour comparison?
Given the possible new regen value for the Callassault, you may not need that recharger. That leaves you with 625 shield HP at 40 HP/s with a 3/4 delay, a damage mod, and an unhindered speed.
TBC
Compare that to the Gallassault fit you suggested, in terms of armour vs shields.
625 vs 538 - win for the shield tank.
40 HP/s vs 5 HP/s unassisted regen - win for the shield tank
3/4s delay for the shield tank compared to the armour tank - win for the armour tank
Bring in the allotek hive?
40 HP/s 3/4 delay vs 45 HP/s destructible/unreliable regen - debatable.
0% penalty vs 8% move 16% strafe penalty - win for the shield tank.
8% increased damage for armour tanker - win for the armour tanker IF damage mods unnerfed.
Quote:
4). Also remember, as said before, one flux grenade and it doesn't matter for shield, you are essentially dead, as if get hit by a flux that person is right there w/in 10m so it'd be 1-2 shots/bursts of a gun and you are dead. With that said, as it implies, shield tankers main buffer is their primary hp source; whereas armor tankers initial buffer is their 2ndary source, which based on my alterations is 1/2 that of a shield tankers primary buffer source. So, lets say both players do 470 damage to each other, shield are gone leaving you 150 armor hp ; where as the armor suit still have 328 armor hp. You have twice the hp source left, along w/ having your armor rep asap, and can thrown down a supplied hive to be at almost full armor once the shield tankers shields even start to regen; so you'd be looking at 150 hp vs 490hp
One locus grenade will do the same to an armour tanker - 1-2 shots/bursts of a gun and you are dead. The locus has a chance of killing the person straight out, though, especially if properly cooked or using a decent grenade.
Those HP comparisons are given using your fitting numbers, though this is a highly debatable topic. I do not believe these fits are adequate for shield vs armour comparisons, and I doubt you will agree with any fits I suggest for comparative purposes.
I look forward to your response. Get some sleep if you're been up for 24 hours though, man. 
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
628
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 18:32:00 -
[77] - Quote
Regarding hives: Sure Triage hives are somewhat usefull but only on proto and thats a lot of ISK and SP for that stationary advantage, that is also quite vulnerable.
Regarding Reptools sure they are nice on proto (again) below Proto they are more an after fight tool and you have to consider that every rep tool user is one gun less on the field and you are basicly fighting against two people working together.
Grab another mate both with guns and the result won't be that good for the Combo with reptool...
Also consider that armor has no supporting Highslot module and the drawback is way more hindering compared to the Shieldextender penalty. |
Berserker007
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
476
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 18:55:00 -
[78] - Quote
@Arkena:
Havent used the Allotek hives personally, only been inside them, and that was pre Uprising, so not sure if they changed much, but I remember moving/staffing inside them and getting the ammo/hp while taking damage and being almost "unkillable", b/c the regen was outdoing the damage that was being dealt.
For the Caldari suits, I was going off current values; b/c until we see the new stats I have to assume all remains the same, as words from CCP doesn't mean much, I'd want the actual empirical evidence.
As to the semi shield tanked on the gallente suit. I did that for b/c of PG restrictions, but personally, I feel that a extender would be more efficient of a high slot then a 3rd damage mod (as is) that is reduce from a 10% to 6% . I'd think in that scenario 110 hp boost, would be more beneficial then 6% more damage (this is of course we assume damage mods are unchanged atm).
I haven't done locus testing on suits in a while, as I haven't been running them; but im not sure if they have a 80% efficiency to shields or not (them being explosive), as a locus nade could then "counter" my idea of a flux.
In regards to the new player hp 'dispute", I find it'd be more "even" throughout, as there is always a 30-40 hp disparity b/t shield and armor at each level.
Will say, I do agree the repping plates are complete trash. They need to do something to make them more effective, unless their idea was that they are the target hp bonus for armor scouts; who knows.
Not sure what else wanted to reply one; but I'd def be interested in seeing how you'd do a comparison fit ... As I made this topic for people to express their opinions/views on the subject, so have at it ..... and im pleasantly surprised how many real ideas/posts there are w/o people just crying and being little bitch3s
Closed Beta Vet
Mordu's Trials Winner
Original IMP
|
Meknow Intaki
83
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 18:59:00 -
[79] - Quote
I would like to see a remote shield repper soon =ƒÿü |
Meknow Intaki
83
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 19:00:00 -
[80] - Quote
Or shield repping nano hives =ƒæì |
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2674
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 19:11:00 -
[81] - Quote
1) Increase Time To Kill (TTK) so that the GÇ£runGÇ¥ part of GÇ£hit and runGÇ¥ becomes viable for shield suits.
2) Remove the mechanic which slows you to 50% of walking speed when you get hit so that the GÇ£runGÇ¥ part of GÇ£hit and runGÇ¥ becomes viable for shield suits.
I believe they are working on 1 in 1.8, which will make shield suits a lot more viable. I hope to God that they address 2 as well. That Sloth mechanic is the one thing in this game that makes me want to hurl my controller through my TV screen. IT IS SO FRUSTRATING!!!
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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Knight Solitaire
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
404
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 19:17:00 -
[82] - Quote
No more HP. Alpha weapons are already suffering.
Corporation: Fatal Absolution
Alliance: General Tso's Alliance
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