DUST Search - To Make Shield Tanking Viable....

Bojo The Mighty wrote:

Berserker007 wrote:

like I said at the end, instead of just buffing extenders; add the types that were proposed as a 2nd tier; that'd be equal to your original plates of 50/75/100 (85/115/135), that have the current delay penalty. Then make the current extenders like your ferroscale played w/ a "small buff to be like 30/53/66 (or something like that) w/ no penalty.

Then like plates, you have a high hp source w/ penalties, and a "low"/medium source w/o penalties

If that's so you'd have to add a much heavier shield delay penalty to shield extenders because the current 6% is completely unnoticeable. Yet speed penalties are heavily felt because they are always in effect. Your shields are not constantly in recharge limbo.

Again I'm all for a shield buff because I find it difficult to compete with my anti-shield weapons when competing against these very overpowered combat rifles while I armor tank. (and even with shields the CR is OP don't deny it). The population is too heavily on the armor tank side and 1.8 needs to address this and I think the racial parity will help but even then.

But I still find it weird that you'd think that a regenerating pool of HP should outweigh the pool of a non-regenerating pool of HP (Ferros versus even your proposed changes to light and heavy shields)


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Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 460	Posted - 2014.02.26 23:44:00 - [1] - Quote With all the current threads regarding armor vs shield; and with the hopes of a respect in 1.8; it got me thinking as to what EvE lore, and most people are saying about shields. Shields are the hit and run type suit; where armor is the run straight at you suit and take all the damage. At the moment though; shield are just to weak, and the recharge is so slow/not enough to compared with that of armor; along with other things. This got me thinking in ways that shield tanking and this "hit and run" tactics" could work for more then just scout suits. I came up with these ideas (that all kinda go into each other) 1). Buff shield extenders to something like 50/75/100 (and lower/remove penalty) ; keeping the same CPU, but lowering pg to 1/4/7(as in Eve armor is more pg then shield) . This allows shield tankers to change up their builds a bit more, and not handicap themselves of lack of hp for damage to counter armor which get both. Leads to 2..... 2). By giving this buff to extenders, for a Caldari assault per say you could use either 2 or 3 of these extenders to reach shield of 482 or 592. Say you take option 1: of 2 extenders. This leaves you 2 slots open. How about to duel with a galente who will have damage mods, add one damage mod (pending on how they are post rework), so this gives you a bit more pop to your weapon. Then for the last high slot, could try a ..... COMPLEX RECHARGER .... OMG, yes . Now, im not sure how many assaults or even anyone uses these anymore, but by buffing up extenders, it may give rise to a unused module of the recharger. Adding one complex recharger to your Caldari assault suit can put recharge from 25, up to 37 . Now this may not seem great, but leads to 3.... 3). Buff regulators. At the moment shield regulators aren't exactly worthwhile for what they do, even at a complex level compared to running a basic/militia plate (even on shield suits). Maybe up a complex regular to something like 40% or so. This all ties into the idea of poking down your enemy. Having the regulator a speed up the recharge of shield; then the recharger to increase the amount recharged Let the discussion/flame/etc begin (and fyi number/% are off top of head on what may work) Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 461	Posted - 2014.02.27 00:08:00 - [2] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: 50/75/100 is a bit high on the Comp, maybe 50/70/90? Base shield Regen needs a huge buff on min suits though, around 25-30 HP/S reason had the 50/75/100, was mainly b/c it still left a good amount of hp difference b/t that of plates; and is easy on the 10% increase from skilling to calc. Plus at 2 extenders, it gives 220, which is equal to 3 current, so I thought it worked out logically at that Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 461	Posted - 2014.02.27 00:10:00 - [3] - Quote The Infected One wrote: This would help my Minmatar suits as well! I like it! It could make speed taking viable as well, not having to sacrifice a minor speed boost for minor EHP boost, while still letting Caldari be the kings of shield tanking. I know, ive had mini assault since 1.5/1.6 don't remember which is came out. As on mini assault, id prob go 3-1-1 (ex, dam, rech) ; then regulator and prob cpu (as will be needed I think), if not, be some sort of speed/stamina mod Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 462	Posted - 2014.02.27 01:13:00 - [4] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: what i don't get is that caldari have more regen than min suits and more shieldsGÇª.. honestly, id like a buff that went 44-58-72, as thats balanced and scaled with armor plates, min suits need higher regen and lower regen delay than caldari, and the pg needs to be changed to 1-4-7 know mentioned on few posts that we have had on the same topic. The increase your call for is to low to make and sort of different, especially at proto level. The problem is, shield have to get complex to complete in the "hp game", where armor can get away with basic, or adv and be set w/o having to use complex for the high tier movement penalty. Complex shield need to be worthwhile, and at 72 you suggest they aren't. That means 80 w/ skilling, meaning only 7hp more then they currently are, which would equal to 7-28 more shield which is WORHTLESS. You need a significant increase as I have shown to let shield tanking complete w/ armor; and at the same time it adds a new refound diversity of setups which currentlu aren't feasible to do at all. Meeko Fent wrote: Sometimes I feel my Suits are a bit too soft for frontline combat if I don't Dual-Tank, and this might resolve that issue. Exactly. Once a shield suit loses its shield, you are kinda f'cked. Where armor suits, you lose your shield and still have 500 hp left; and even if you lose 1/2 yr armor; duck away and your SHIELDS (your 2ndary hp source), starts to repair as well as your armor. So yes, as someone else said, even at 90 for complex that would work. One thing need to take into account, is that a COMPLEX shield, should offer more hp then a BASIC plate. As if take either my 100 or 90 as suggest at lv5 it equal to 99 or 110 hp . A basic plate w/ lv1 skilling is ~87 . So for an extra 900k SP in shielding, you can b/t 12-22 HP. I think that is quite fair Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 465	Posted - 2014.02.27 03:55:00 - [5] - Quote damnn, I got a topic bump , cool :) Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 465	Posted - 2014.02.27 04:03:00 - [6] - Quote Kal Kronos wrote: Any buff to shields is good in my books, even with these values you're still only 2-3 viziam shots away from death... I especially like the increase to the lower level extenders, those things are worthless. agreed. One reason I like the idea of higher lv proto extenders (90+) is that it will limit that "effectiveness" of CR and RR, b/c of the "negative" efficiency rating, and wish 3 proposed extenders = ~5 current extenders, it frees up space for customization, as well as making the ScR more desirable to combat shield tanking ... that is of course the effectiveness of "armor based" weaponry to shields is somehow reduce Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 465	Posted - 2014.02.27 04:06:00 - [7] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Go ahead and buff shield tanking because all my SP is tied up in anti shield weaponry + I armor tank, fluxes don't hurt. Secondly if you're going to go around buffing Shield extenders you gotta give props to Ferros and Reactives as well it's only fair. I would have to disagree. If the only thing changed is the hp amount (and possible pg costs), it doesnt change how plates would work. If your armor tank you have 3 options to choose from. I could understand it if they made our proposed extenders additions that have the current penalty; and the current extenders have no penalty; then that'd work. Otherwise, all'd be fine; as you could choose weather you'd want to have penalties tied into your hp boosts or not. If extenders were only changed and not added, it'd still be "fair" Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 466	Posted - 2014.02.27 04:24:00 - [8] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Berserker007 wrote: I would have to disagree. If the only thing changed is the hp amount (and possible pg costs), it doesnt change how plates would work. If your armor tank you have 3 options to choose from. I could understand it if they made our proposed extenders additions that have the current penalty; and the current extenders have no penalty; then that'd work. Otherwise, all'd be fine; as you could choose weather you'd want to have penalties tied into your hp boosts or not. If extenders were only changed and not added, it'd still be "fair" Well it wouldn't There would no longer be any reason to use Ferroscales because at the values you propose, a shield extender would supply more HP that self regens without movement penalty with similar fitting costs at tier. Ferroscales do not self regen and currently they give a slightly higher HP buff over shield extenders for that very reason. Reactives do cause your entire pool of HP to regenerate, slowly, so it's natural that they give less HP. You can't buff shield extender values without bringing up ferroscale values as well. like I said at the end, instead of just buffing extenders; add the types that were proposed as a 2nd tier; that'd be equal to your original plates of 50/75/100 (85/115/135), that have the current delay penalty. Then make the current extenders like your ferroscale played w/ a "small buff to be like 30/53/66 (or something like that) w/ no penalty. Then like plates, you have a high hp source w/ penalties, and a "low"/medium source w/o penalties Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 467	Posted - 2014.02.27 04:41:00 - [9] - Quote Israckcatarac wrote: Look's more like your trying to build the invincable caldari assaut. It's understandable every nerf/buff post is nothing more then the poster looking to gain the advantage in his/her prefrence of play. It's not a bad thing just a natural reaction to self preservation. for a fact, I have both armor and shield tank in this game (armor tanked be4 it was a cool think do to, back when we have Vk.0 and Vk.1's). So in playing now; and just seeing what/how ever things are being built up; you can tell there is an advantage to armor, when you are seeing Caldari Vk.0's w/ something like 200-400 ARMOR, and like 25-3000 shield. It's b/c that the moment to compete w/ armor tankers, you need armor and damage mods in your high slots. If shield tanking was to imbalanced like it use to be prior to major updates and such; people said plates needed some love; and slowly they got them; but at that point in the game most shield tanked anyway so it wasn't a big concern. Now, it is a major top tier balance concern up their w/ the AV-Vehicle imbalances. Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 468	Posted - 2014.02.27 05:09:00 - [10] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Berserker007 wrote: like I said at the end, instead of just buffing extenders; add the types that were proposed as a 2nd tier; that'd be equal to your original plates of 50/75/100 (85/115/135), that have the current delay penalty. Then make the current extenders like your ferroscale played w/ a "small buff to be like 30/53/66 (or something like that) w/ no penalty. Then like plates, you have a high hp source w/ penalties, and a "low"/medium source w/o penalties If that's so you'd have to add a much heavier shield delay penalty to shield extenders because the current 6% is completely unnoticeable. Yet speed penalties are heavily felt because they are always in effect. Your shields are not constantly in recharge limbo. Again I'm all for a shield buff because I find it difficult to compete with my anti-shield weapons when competing against these very overpowered combat rifles while I armor tank. (and even with shields the CR is OP don't deny it). The population is too heavily on the armor tank side and 1.8 needs to address this and I think the racial parity will help but even then. But I still find it weird that you'd think that a regenerating pool of HP should outweigh the pool of a non-regenerating pool of HP (Ferros versus even your proposed changes to light and heavy shields) reason think this, is b/c shield tanking, your 1st line of defense if your primary, where armor; your 1st line of defense is your secondary hp source. That, and even though shields have innate regen, that all we have; where as armor; you have plates w/ regen, or repair modules; but you also have repair tools, and repair nano's . So it kinda of evens out in a sense Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP

Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 472	Posted - 2014.02.28 01:08:00 - [11] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: Berserker007 wrote: Shield are just to weak, and the recharge is so slow/not enough to compared with that of armor. You can leave now. yeah comparing shield recharge to armor recharge is dumb. sure armor reps constantly but even on a proto amarr logi you'd have to use all the low slots to get the armor repping the same as an assault (with current skills) and then in 1.8 the most we'll get is 6hps per complex rep mod and them things take a lot of PG/CPU for what they do, plus everyone keeps saying armor is so great but trust me. when you're plated up the speed penalty is nasty, your as slow as a heavy with half the EHP I think he's saying that if armor has no delay, only a small amount less repair and hugely more HP, there is imbalance, which is true what i meant was, that even though armor have no innate repair (as of 1.8 believe, except for the built in for the certain plate type), they have other ways/abilities to repair their main hp source, where shield only have the recharge. Now correct me if im wrong, but more or less, the moment you stop taking damage to your armor; your reppers kick in, correct? If you look at shields, any damage taken to shield during the repair causes the delay and recharge to start all over. Then take into account repair tools and triage hives; you can have a sustained amount of repairs (w/ a buddy, or even yrself if u have the repping hives). So by adding in exterior forces, your repair rate can exceed that of a shield suit. Guess forgot this community isn't "able" to read b/t the lines, and infer based on their own knowledge Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 473	Posted - 2014.02.28 04:11:00 - [12] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: read my above post I know, my reply wasn't aimed at you ... I was just lazy and didn't wana edit posts out :P Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 476	Posted - 2014.02.28 16:46:00 - [13] - Quote ok, ima make an attempt to reply to people; but all I ask is cut me some slack atm, as I didn't sleep at all last night (literally been up 24hrs), so I feel like complete sht right now. 1). Yes, armor has no "innate" repair; though since haven't seen the changes of 1.8 that may be altered now. However, you do have repping plates, repair modules, repair nanohives, repair tool as which help boost your repair that and repairs even while taking fire. Shields, have the recharge rate and that alone, and the delay occurs each time and damage is taken 2). Reason I have # at 50/75/110, besides a simple skill bonus calc factor, was it makes basic and adv extenders worth it. It allows NEW PLAYERS who shield tank not to get ass fuk right off the bat of a 40-60 hp health difference right off the bat. That and remember, even if I said wanted shields to be at 200hp at proto level, it wouldn't really mean much b/c of the FLUX grenade, as at 12k SP no matter your shield suit or amount it drops to 0 anyway 3). This be a long "answer", as will have an example, so stay with me .... Saying that armor tanking won't be viable if my ideas are done .....ex:..... Caldari Assault Vk0 Complex Extenders x2 (220hp 125 delay, 100/14) Complex Recharger (48% , 90/0) Complex damage mod (58/9) Kal RR (76/14) Toxin smg (14/3) Flux grenade (12/2) Ishni Nano (44/11) Complex Regulator (44% , 35/3) Basic Armor Repair (20/1) Basic CPU upgrade This example gives you 482 shield & 150 armor = 632 ehp w/ 1 damage mod, w/ a 36 shield recharge amount, w/ ~3sec delay, ~4 sec depleted delay Gallente Assault Vk0 Complex Plate (149hp, 30/12) Enhanced Plate (127, 20/6) Advanced Repair (5 [as would want reps changed to 2-4-6]... 35/5) Militia CPU Upgrade Allotek Nanohive (66,16) Flux Grenade (12/2) Toxin smg (14/3) Boundless CR (74/8) Complex Extender (110, 50/7) Complex Damage Mod x2 (116/18) This suit has 538 armor & 260 shield = 799 ehp w/ 2 damade mods So, in this type of setup, you get 167 more ehp and 2nd damage mod in the armor tanked suit, along w/ a base 5hp armor regen, and a "combo" hive of giving you ammo and 40armor per sec, so in time a shield takes to start its complete delay, with a allotek hive down, you'd recover ~40% of your armor. How is it that armor wouldn't be able to compete w/ my said changes again? 4). Also remember, as said before, one flux grenade and it doesn't matter for shield, you are essentially dead, as if get hit by a flux that person is right there w/in 10m so it'd be 1-2 shots/bursts of a gun and you are dead. With that said, as it implies, shield tankers main buffer is their primary hp source; whereas armor tankers initial buffer is their 2ndary source, which based on my alterations is 1/2 that of a shield tankers primary buffer source. So, lets say both players do 470 damage to each other, shield are gone leaving you 150 armor hp ; where as the armor suit still have 328 armor hp. You have twice the hp source left, along w/ having your armor rep asap, and can thrown down a supplied hive to be at almost full armor once the shield tankers shields even start to regen; so you'd be looking at 150 hp vs 490hp To be continued when I can properly think Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 476	Posted - 2014.02.28 18:55:00 - [14] - Quote @Arkena: Havent used the Allotek hives personally, only been inside them, and that was pre Uprising, so not sure if they changed much, but I remember moving/staffing inside them and getting the ammo/hp while taking damage and being almost "unkillable", b/c the regen was outdoing the damage that was being dealt. For the Caldari suits, I was going off current values; b/c until we see the new stats I have to assume all remains the same, as words from CCP doesn't mean much, I'd want the actual empirical evidence. As to the semi shield tanked on the gallente suit. I did that for b/c of PG restrictions, but personally, I feel that a extender would be more efficient of a high slot then a 3rd damage mod (as is) that is reduce from a 10% to 6% . I'd think in that scenario 110 hp boost, would be more beneficial then 6% more damage (this is of course we assume damage mods are unchanged atm). I haven't done locus testing on suits in a while, as I haven't been running them; but im not sure if they have a 80% efficiency to shields or not (them being explosive), as a locus nade could then "counter" my idea of a flux. In regards to the new player hp 'dispute", I find it'd be more "even" throughout, as there is always a 30-40 hp disparity b/t shield and armor at each level. Will say, I do agree the repping plates are complete trash. They need to do something to make them more effective, unless their idea was that they are the target hp bonus for armor scouts; who knows. Not sure what else wanted to reply one; but I'd def be interested in seeing how you'd do a comparison fit ... As I made this topic for people to express their opinions/views on the subject, so have at it ..... and im pleasantly surprised how many real ideas/posts there are w/o people just crying and being little bitch3s Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP