DUST Search - To Make Shield Tanking Viable....

Bojo The Mighty wrote:

Berserker007 wrote:

I would have to disagree. If the only thing changed is the hp amount (and possible pg costs), it doesnt change how plates would work. If your armor tank you have 3 options to choose from. I could understand it if they made our proposed extenders additions that have the current penalty; and the current extenders have no penalty; then that'd work.

Otherwise, all'd be fine; as you could choose weather you'd want to have penalties tied into your hp boosts or not. If extenders were only changed and not added, it'd still be "fair"

Well it wouldn't

There would no longer be any reason to use Ferroscales because at the values you propose, a shield extender would supply more HP that self regens without movement penalty with similar fitting costs at tier. Ferroscales do not self regen and currently they give a slightly higher HP buff over shield extenders for that very reason. Reactives do cause your entire pool of HP to regenerate, slowly, so it's natural that they give less HP.

You can't buff shield extender values without bringing up ferroscale values as well.

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Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 460	Posted - 2014.02.26 23:44:00 - [1] - Quote With all the current threads regarding armor vs shield; and with the hopes of a respect in 1.8; it got me thinking as to what EvE lore, and most people are saying about shields. Shields are the hit and run type suit; where armor is the run straight at you suit and take all the damage. At the moment though; shield are just to weak, and the recharge is so slow/not enough to compared with that of armor; along with other things. This got me thinking in ways that shield tanking and this "hit and run" tactics" could work for more then just scout suits. I came up with these ideas (that all kinda go into each other) 1). Buff shield extenders to something like 50/75/100 (and lower/remove penalty) ; keeping the same CPU, but lowering pg to 1/4/7(as in Eve armor is more pg then shield) . This allows shield tankers to change up their builds a bit more, and not handicap themselves of lack of hp for damage to counter armor which get both. Leads to 2..... 2). By giving this buff to extenders, for a Caldari assault per say you could use either 2 or 3 of these extenders to reach shield of 482 or 592. Say you take option 1: of 2 extenders. This leaves you 2 slots open. How about to duel with a galente who will have damage mods, add one damage mod (pending on how they are post rework), so this gives you a bit more pop to your weapon. Then for the last high slot, could try a ..... COMPLEX RECHARGER .... OMG, yes . Now, im not sure how many assaults or even anyone uses these anymore, but by buffing up extenders, it may give rise to a unused module of the recharger. Adding one complex recharger to your Caldari assault suit can put recharge from 25, up to 37 . Now this may not seem great, but leads to 3.... 3). Buff regulators. At the moment shield regulators aren't exactly worthwhile for what they do, even at a complex level compared to running a basic/militia plate (even on shield suits). Maybe up a complex regular to something like 40% or so. This all ties into the idea of poking down your enemy. Having the regulator a speed up the recharge of shield; then the recharger to increase the amount recharged Let the discussion/flame/etc begin (and fyi number/% are off top of head on what may work) Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
The Infected One Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 861	Posted - 2014.02.26 23:49:00 - [2] - Quote This would help my Minmatar suits as well! I like it! It could make speed taking viable as well, not having to sacrifice a minor speed boost for minor EHP boost, while still letting Caldari be the kings of shield tanking. I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS? THAT SENTENCE HAD TOO MANY SYLLABLES! APOLOGIZE!
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2398	Posted - 2014.02.27 00:03:00 - [3] - Quote 50/75/100 is a bit high on the Comp, maybe 50/70/90? Base shield Regen needs a huge buff on min suits though, around 25-30 HP/S Listen I'll change the song every week
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 461	Posted - 2014.02.27 00:08:00 - [4] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: 50/75/100 is a bit high on the Comp, maybe 50/70/90? Base shield Regen needs a huge buff on min suits though, around 25-30 HP/S reason had the 50/75/100, was mainly b/c it still left a good amount of hp difference b/t that of plates; and is easy on the 10% increase from skilling to calc. Plus at 2 extenders, it gives 220, which is equal to 3 current, so I thought it worked out logically at that Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 461	Posted - 2014.02.27 00:10:00 - [5] - Quote The Infected One wrote: This would help my Minmatar suits as well! I like it! It could make speed taking viable as well, not having to sacrifice a minor speed boost for minor EHP boost, while still letting Caldari be the kings of shield tanking. I know, ive had mini assault since 1.5/1.6 don't remember which is came out. As on mini assault, id prob go 3-1-1 (ex, dam, rech) ; then regulator and prob cpu (as will be needed I think), if not, be some sort of speed/stamina mod Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 256	Posted - 2014.02.27 00:23:00 - [6] - Quote The problem is that shields lacks any way team support where as armor can utilize triage hives and rep tools. Armor tankers, if they have support, can fully devote themselves to tanking and leave repairs to an ally with equipment. Shields on the other hand only have their personal repairs with no way to improve performance. Shields aren't about brawling and should have values notably lower than armor. That said, basic and enhanced extenders are too weak. Basic: 36 and Enhanced: 51 I think would be good values plus there needs to be equipment to support them. In EVE if there was only logi ships for armor then obviously armor > shields in organized engagements but shields vs armor would remain relatively balanced on a 1v1 factor.
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries 2207	Posted - 2014.02.27 00:26:00 - [7] - Quote 40/60/80. Seems good for the extenders to me Tankers- 'Hit us when are hardeners are down" Proceeds to run three hardeners. Proud member of RND
THEAMAZING POTHEAD Nyain San Renegade Alliance 997	Posted - 2014.02.27 00:27:00 - [8] - Quote Shield suits just need the inherent base regen speed or regulators buffed because waiting 8 seconds to START recharging then another 20 to get full shields back is unbelievable stupid for a playstyle thats supposed to be hit n flank. The shields need to start recharging almost instantly and have a high per second regen for that kind of playstyle. Regulators need to be buffed to like 25/50/75% so equipping 1 leaves you a couple seconds to start regen and equipping 2 leaves a less than a second. We would then be able to USE them instead of being COMPLETELY outclassed by dual tanking. Fact is that shield tanking is unsuitable for a hit n run playstyle because the regen is just not fast enough due to the MASSIVE delays. GEEEEEEETTT SOOOOOOMMMMMEEEE!!!!!!
Spartykins NECROM0NGERS The CORVOS 18	Posted - 2014.02.27 00:31:00 - [9] - Quote I'd say lower the PG so you can fit biotic's easier. Would suit the roaming playstyle that shields seem to have. (Insert witty phrase here)
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 256	Posted - 2014.02.27 00:37:00 - [10] - Quote What do you think of this Shield Booster: Instantly recharges 1000 amount of shields. Cool down for 15 seconds. In the end the overall rate of shields restored during a period of time (say a minute) is a bit lower than an armor repper of the same tier. However the shield user gains the advantage because instead of it slowly coming back he immediately regains most, if not all, of their shields but is overall less effective during prolonged engagements due to a lower rate over time. You could have variants that have lower cool downs with lower amounts of shield restored so light or medium suits can make good use of it too. OR For every 60 shields restored, cools down for 1 second. That way it is a bit more flexible in who it can help without giving more or less than needed. Note: The PG is too high on extenders. Lowering by 2 would be a fair balance.

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 966	Posted - 2014.02.27 00:54:00 - [11] - Quote what i don't get is that caldari have more regen than min suits and more shieldsGÇª.. honestly, id like a buff that went 44-58-72, as thats balanced and scaled with armor plates, min suits need higher regen and lower regen delay than caldari, and the pg needs to be changed to 1-4-7 Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1813	Posted - 2014.02.27 01:00:00 - [12] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: 50/75/100 is a bit high on the Comp, maybe 50/70/90? Base shield Regen needs a huge buff on min suits though, around 25-30 HP/S This is all I would really want. Sometimes I feel my Suits are a bit too soft for frontline combat if I don't Dual-Tank, and this might resolve that issue. Looking for a Interesting Character Name? Why Not Zoidberg?
John ShepardIII G0DS AM0NG MEN D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 109	Posted - 2014.02.27 01:02:00 - [13] - Quote To make shield tanking viable we should get 120 hp per complex shld extender 8P CEO of G0DS AM0NG MEN Join out pub channel G0DS AM0NG MEN :D
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1813	Posted - 2014.02.27 01:06:00 - [14] - Quote Texs Red wrote: The problem is that shields lacks any way team support where as armor can utilize triage hives and rep tools. Armor tankers, if they have support, can fully devote themselves to tanking and leave repairs to an ally with equipment. Shields on the other hand only have their personal repairs with no way to improve performance. Shields aren't about brawling and should have values notably lower than armor. That said, basic and enhanced extenders are too weak. Basic: 36 and Enhanced: 51 I think would be good values plus there needs to be equipment to support them. In EVE if there was only logi ships for armor then obviously armor > shields in organized engagements but shields vs armor would remain relatively balanced on a 1v1 factor. Hmm. Those Numbers on the standard and enhanced look good, but then it would be such a small difference between Comp and Enh. IF we go with those numbers, buff the complex Shield Extenders to 70-80 HP per module if you do that. Looking for a Interesting Character Name? Why Not Zoidberg?
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 462	Posted - 2014.02.27 01:13:00 - [15] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: what i don't get is that caldari have more regen than min suits and more shieldsGÇª.. honestly, id like a buff that went 44-58-72, as thats balanced and scaled with armor plates, min suits need higher regen and lower regen delay than caldari, and the pg needs to be changed to 1-4-7 know mentioned on few posts that we have had on the same topic. The increase your call for is to low to make and sort of different, especially at proto level. The problem is, shield have to get complex to complete in the "hp game", where armor can get away with basic, or adv and be set w/o having to use complex for the high tier movement penalty. Complex shield need to be worthwhile, and at 72 you suggest they aren't. That means 80 w/ skilling, meaning only 7hp more then they currently are, which would equal to 7-28 more shield which is WORHTLESS. You need a significant increase as I have shown to let shield tanking complete w/ armor; and at the same time it adds a new refound diversity of setups which currentlu aren't feasible to do at all. Meeko Fent wrote: Sometimes I feel my Suits are a bit too soft for frontline combat if I don't Dual-Tank, and this might resolve that issue. Exactly. Once a shield suit loses its shield, you are kinda f'cked. Where armor suits, you lose your shield and still have 500 hp left; and even if you lose 1/2 yr armor; duck away and your SHIELDS (your 2ndary hp source), starts to repair as well as your armor. So yes, as someone else said, even at 90 for complex that would work. One thing need to take into account, is that a COMPLEX shield, should offer more hp then a BASIC plate. As if take either my 100 or 90 as suggest at lv5 it equal to 99 or 110 hp . A basic plate w/ lv1 skilling is ~87 . So for an extra 900k SP in shielding, you can b/t 12-22 HP. I think that is quite fair Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Vegetation Monster KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 201	Posted - 2014.02.27 01:16:00 - [16] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: 50/75/100 is a bit high on the Comp, maybe 50/70/90? Base shield Regen needs a huge buff on min suits though, around 25-30 HP/S 44, 55, 77 B Double O T Y
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 966	Posted - 2014.02.27 01:16:00 - [17] - Quote STD: (85 armor, 3 PG, 10 CPU, 3% penalty) vs (44 shields, 2 PG, 15 CPU, 3% penalty) ADV: (110 armor, 6 PG, 22 CPU, 4% penalty) vs (58 shields, 4 PG, 32 CPU, 4% penalty ) PRO: (135 armor, 12 PG, 30 CPU, 5% penalty) vs (72 shields, 7 PG, 55 CPU, 5% penalty) The fittings are balanced at 1 pg=5 CPU, while the real average at prototype level of suit is 4.7-5.2 CPU per PG The HP amounts are scaled the same from PRO-STD and PRO-ADV (same % change) Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Patrick57 5505	Posted - 2014.02.27 01:22:00 - [18] - Quote My Caldari Scout agrees =] I go negative in PC, yay
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 966	Posted - 2014.02.27 01:23:00 - [19] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: My Caldari Scout agrees =] its backwards that caldari get higher base shield AND higher native regeneration than minmitar suits in 1.8GÇª.. Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 980	Posted - 2014.02.27 03:43:00 - [20] - Quote bump Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!

Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 465	Posted - 2014.02.27 03:55:00 - [21] - Quote damnn, I got a topic bump , cool :) Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Kal Kronos L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 198	Posted - 2014.02.27 03:58:00 - [22] - Quote Any buff to shields is good in my books, even with these values you're still only 2-3 viziam shots away from death... I especially like the increase to the lower level extenders, those things are worthless. What's not to love about the scrambler rifle, the thing is a precision weapon and at the same time a shotgun.
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3336	Posted - 2014.02.27 04:03:00 - [23] - Quote Go ahead and buff shield tanking because all my SP is tied up in anti shield weaponry + I armor tank, fluxes don't hurt. Secondly if you're going to go around buffing Shield extenders you gotta give props to Ferros and Reactives as well it's only fair. Bojo - Adding chili powder to your experience since early times
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 465	Posted - 2014.02.27 04:03:00 - [24] - Quote Kal Kronos wrote: Any buff to shields is good in my books, even with these values you're still only 2-3 viziam shots away from death... I especially like the increase to the lower level extenders, those things are worthless. agreed. One reason I like the idea of higher lv proto extenders (90+) is that it will limit that "effectiveness" of CR and RR, b/c of the "negative" efficiency rating, and wish 3 proposed extenders = ~5 current extenders, it frees up space for customization, as well as making the ScR more desirable to combat shield tanking ... that is of course the effectiveness of "armor based" weaponry to shields is somehow reduce Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 465	Posted - 2014.02.27 04:06:00 - [25] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Go ahead and buff shield tanking because all my SP is tied up in anti shield weaponry + I armor tank, fluxes don't hurt. Secondly if you're going to go around buffing Shield extenders you gotta give props to Ferros and Reactives as well it's only fair. I would have to disagree. If the only thing changed is the hp amount (and possible pg costs), it doesnt change how plates would work. If your armor tank you have 3 options to choose from. I could understand it if they made our proposed extenders additions that have the current penalty; and the current extenders have no penalty; then that'd work. Otherwise, all'd be fine; as you could choose weather you'd want to have penalties tied into your hp boosts or not. If extenders were only changed and not added, it'd still be "fair" Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3336	Posted - 2014.02.27 04:13:00 - [26] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: I would have to disagree. If the only thing changed is the hp amount (and possible pg costs), it doesnt change how plates would work. If your armor tank you have 3 options to choose from. I could understand it if they made our proposed extenders additions that have the current penalty; and the current extenders have no penalty; then that'd work. Otherwise, all'd be fine; as you could choose weather you'd want to have penalties tied into your hp boosts or not. If extenders were only changed and not added, it'd still be "fair" Well it wouldn't There would no longer be any reason to use Ferroscales because at the values you propose, a shield extender would supply more HP that self regens without movement penalty with similar fitting costs at tier. Ferroscales do not self regen and currently they give a slightly higher HP buff over shield extenders for that very reason. Reactives do cause your entire pool of HP to regenerate, slowly, so it's natural that they give less HP. You can't buff shield extender values without bringing up ferroscale values as well. Bojo - Adding chili powder to your experience since early times
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 983	Posted - 2014.02.27 04:21:00 - [27] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Go ahead and buff shield tanking because all my SP is tied up in anti shield weaponry + I armor tank, fluxes don't hurt. Secondly if you're going to go around buffing Shield extenders you gotta give props to Ferros and Reactives as well it's only fair. Proposed buff- lower fitting reqs than actual plates Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 466	Posted - 2014.02.27 04:24:00 - [28] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Berserker007 wrote: I would have to disagree. If the only thing changed is the hp amount (and possible pg costs), it doesnt change how plates would work. If your armor tank you have 3 options to choose from. I could understand it if they made our proposed extenders additions that have the current penalty; and the current extenders have no penalty; then that'd work. Otherwise, all'd be fine; as you could choose weather you'd want to have penalties tied into your hp boosts or not. If extenders were only changed and not added, it'd still be "fair" Well it wouldn't There would no longer be any reason to use Ferroscales because at the values you propose, a shield extender would supply more HP that self regens without movement penalty with similar fitting costs at tier. Ferroscales do not self regen and currently they give a slightly higher HP buff over shield extenders for that very reason. Reactives do cause your entire pool of HP to regenerate, slowly, so it's natural that they give less HP. You can't buff shield extender values without bringing up ferroscale values as well. like I said at the end, instead of just buffing extenders; add the types that were proposed as a 2nd tier; that'd be equal to your original plates of 50/75/100 (85/115/135), that have the current delay penalty. Then make the current extenders like your ferroscale played w/ a "small buff to be like 30/53/66 (or something like that) w/ no penalty. Then like plates, you have a high hp source w/ penalties, and a "low"/medium source w/o penalties Closed Beta Vet Mordu's Trials Winner Original IMP
Israckcatarac Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 32	Posted - 2014.02.27 04:34:00 - [29] - Quote Look's more like your trying to build the invincable caldari assaut. It's understandable every nerf/buff post is nothing more then the poster looking to gain the advantage in his/her prefrence of play. It's not a bad thing just a natural reaction to self preservation.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 983	Posted - 2014.02.27 04:37:00 - [30] - Quote Israckcatarac wrote: Look's more like your trying to build the invincable caldari assaut. It's understandable every nerf/buff post is nothing more then the poster looking to gain the advantage in his/her prefrence of play. It's not a bad thing just a natural reaction to self preservation. no, its a common fact that armor>>shield on soooooo many levels that shields need some form of compensation. Better scaling, slightly more HP, better regen, better fitting reqs, etc. All of these in small quantities will help balance the disparity Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!



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