Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
10124
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Posted - 2014.02.27 07:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Berserker007 wrote:
I would have to disagree. If the only thing changed is the hp amount (and possible pg costs), it doesnt change how plates would work. If your armor tank you have 3 options to choose from. I could understand it if they made our proposed extenders additions that have the current penalty; and the current extenders have no penalty; then that'd work.
Otherwise, all'd be fine; as you could choose weather you'd want to have penalties tied into your hp boosts or not. If extenders were only changed and not added, it'd still be "fair"
Well it wouldn't There would no longer be any reason to use Ferroscales because at the values you propose, a shield extender would supply more HP that self regens without movement penalty with similar fitting costs at tier. Ferroscales do not self regen and currently they give a slightly higher HP buff over shield extenders for that very reason. Reactives do cause your entire pool of HP to regenerate, slowly, so it's natural that they give less HP. You can't buff shield extender values without bringing up ferroscale values as well. like I said at the end, instead of just buffing extenders; add the types that were proposed as a 2nd tier; that'd be equal to your original plates of 50/75/100 (85/115/135), that have the current delay penalty. Then make the current extenders like your ferroscale played w/ a "small buff to be like 30/53/66 (or something like that) w/ no penalty. Then like plates, you have a high hp source w/ penalties, and a "low"/medium source w/o penalties
Why does the depleted delay penalty matter that much? With ferroscales, they don't regenerate at all. With shields, they regenerate at a rapid rate. Why is a slowing to the recharge rate worth a HP advantage over something that doesn't regen at all?
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
10161
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Posted - 2014.02.27 23:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Berserker007 wrote:Shield are just to weak, and the recharge is so slow/not enough to compared with that of armor. You can leave now. yeah comparing shield recharge to armor recharge is dumb. sure armor reps constantly but even on a proto amarr logi you'd have to use all the low slots to get the armor repping the same as an assault (with current skills) and then in 1.8 the most we'll get is 6hps per complex rep mod and them things take a lot of PG/CPU for what they do, plus everyone keeps saying armor is so great but trust me. when you're plated up the speed penalty is nasty, your as slow as a heavy with half the EHP I think he's saying that if armor has no delay, only a small amount less repair and hugely more HP, there is imbalance, which is true
It's not 'a small amount less repair', though.
With a complex module, taking up a ton of PG/CPU, you get 6.25 HP/s. Even the lower shield regens are 20+ at base, without any modules or skills. That's at the low end.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
10171
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Posted - 2014.02.28 18:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:ok, ima make an attempt to reply to people; but all I ask is cut me some slack atm, as I didn't sleep at all last night (literally been up 24hrs), so I feel like complete sh*t right now.
Fair enough. Don't feel pressed to respond -right now-, though. It won't make a difference in the long run, so get some sleep and make some better points later.
I am, however, opposed to this level of buff. Let me explain why.
Quote:
1). Yes, armor has no "innate" repair; though since haven't seen the changes of 1.8 that may be altered now. However, you do have repping plates, repair modules, repair nanohives, repair tool as which help boost your repair that and repairs even while taking fire. Shields, have the recharge rate and that alone, and the delay occurs each time and damage is taken
All of these methods require large amounts of fitting resources and slots. Even after that, they tend to be inferior to shield recharge unless you go full potato with them (that is to say, fitting a ton of modules). A rudimentary shield recharger will put anything but Commando regen comfortably out of passive armour regen methods. Repping plates are hilariously bad, and the only time I've ever really seen them used are on scouts where slots are limited.
Logistics support is an area where shields definitely falls down in comparison to armour. That's a shame, given that this is a 'tactical' shooter, but rather than giving individual shield tanks extremely large buffs would it not be better to address the lack of team support? The idea of having rep tools jump start regen has been relatively quiet on the forums, but I feel it would be a good addition to the game.
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2). Reason I have # at 50/75/110, besides a simple skill bonus calc factor, was it makes basic and adv extenders worth it. It allows NEW PLAYERS who shield tank not to get ass fu*k right off the bat of a 40-60 hp health difference right off the bat. That and remember, even if I said wanted shields to be at 200hp at proto level, it wouldn't really mean much b/c of the FLUX grenade, as at 12k SP no matter your shield suit or amount it drops to 0 anyway
I absolutely agree with the need to not screw new players over in terms of HP values like they are now, but this is a drastic, drastic buff at the high end as well. What is the justification for the large complex buff? It's not the new players, that's much more to do with the high end. Although TTK is low at present, it's apparently being adjusted in the next patch, so that's not the reason either.
The flux grenade is irrelevant. A flux grenade will not kill you. A locus grenade will kill an armour tanker - a core will drop full HP to zero unless it is a heavy. A correctly cooked standard locus grenade is capable of the same feat on the majority of armour tankers, bar the ludicrously tanked Gallogis.
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3). This be a long "answer", as will have an example, so stay with me .... Saying that armor tanking won't be viable if my ideas are done .....ex:.....
Caldari Assault Vk0
Complex Extenders x2 (220hp 125 delay, 100/14)
Complex Recharger (48% , 90/0)
Complex damage mod (58/9)
Kal RR (76/14)
Toxin smg (14/3)
Flux grenade (12/2)
Ishni Nano (44/11)
Complex Regulator (44% , 35/3)
Basic Armor Repair (20/1)
Basic CPU upgrade
This example gives you 482 shield & 150 armor = 632 ehp w/ 1 damage mod, w/ a 36 shield recharge amount, w/ ~3sec delay, ~4 sec depleted delay
Gallente Assault Vk0
Complex Plate (149hp, 30/12)
Enhanced Plate (127, 20/6)
Advanced Repair (5 [as would want reps changed to 2-4-6]... 35/5)
Militia CPU Upgrade
Allotek Nanohive (66,16)
Flux Grenade (12/2)
Toxin smg (14/3)
Boundless CR (74/8)
Complex Extender (110, 50/7)
Complex Damage Mod x2 (116/18)
This suit has 538 armor & 260 shield = 799 ehp w/ 2 damade mods
So, in this type of setup, you get 167 more ehp and 2nd damage mod in the armor tanked suit, along w/ a base 5hp armor regen, and a "combo" hive of giving you ammo and 40armor per sec, so in time a shield takes to start its complete delay, with a allotek hive down, you'd recover ~40% of your armor. How is it that armor wouldn't be able to compete w/ my said changes again?
Because an allotek hive is completely stationary and vulnerable. The splash from a mass driver will kill it, three stray bullets will kill it, any grenade within 6m, even right on the edge, will kill it. It also chains you to the hive - if you leave the hive, you don't get those benefits. If you stand on the hive, you can get grenaded with ease.
Certainly, it is a useful item but you are overestimating its usefulness given its vulnerability - especially after the 1.8 equipment nerfs, it is not a reliable source of regen.
Without that, the armour tanker is much slower, cannot strafe as fast (there is a 16% strafe penalty on that) and has a much, much slower regen. 5 HP/s is hardly anything, especially as the base regen for a Callassault is looking to be 40 HP/s (median between the 50 HP/s scout and 30 HP/s heavy, presumed reasonable given the similar changes across the board). Provided that is the case (and I would support that, as I feel that shield regen should be markedly superior to armour regen given the EHP trades) that fit has almost 60 HP/s regen once the regen kicks in.
Damage mods are not likely to be very useful after the 1.8 changes - they are reportedly likely to be nerfed, although there's nothing solid on the matter. You may be valuing them too highly.
Also, those fits are not really ideal. The comparisons are loaded - you're shield tanking that Gallente assault partially, so why use it as an example in a shield vs armour comparison?
Given the possible new regen value for the Callassault, you may not need that recharger. That leaves you with 625 shield HP at 40 HP/s with a 3/4 delay, a damage mod, and an unhindered speed.
TBC
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
10171
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Posted - 2014.02.28 18:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
Also, those fits are not really ideal. The comparisons are loaded - you're shield tanking that Gallente assault partially, so why use it as an example in a shield vs armour comparison?
Given the possible new regen value for the Callassault, you may not need that recharger. That leaves you with 625 shield HP at 40 HP/s with a 3/4 delay, a damage mod, and an unhindered speed.
TBC
Compare that to the Gallassault fit you suggested, in terms of armour vs shields.
625 vs 538 - win for the shield tank.
40 HP/s vs 5 HP/s unassisted regen - win for the shield tank
3/4s delay for the shield tank compared to the armour tank - win for the armour tank
Bring in the allotek hive?
40 HP/s 3/4 delay vs 45 HP/s destructible/unreliable regen - debatable.
0% penalty vs 8% move 16% strafe penalty - win for the shield tank.
8% increased damage for armour tanker - win for the armour tanker IF damage mods unnerfed.
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4). Also remember, as said before, one flux grenade and it doesn't matter for shield, you are essentially dead, as if get hit by a flux that person is right there w/in 10m so it'd be 1-2 shots/bursts of a gun and you are dead. With that said, as it implies, shield tankers main buffer is their primary hp source; whereas armor tankers initial buffer is their 2ndary source, which based on my alterations is 1/2 that of a shield tankers primary buffer source. So, lets say both players do 470 damage to each other, shield are gone leaving you 150 armor hp ; where as the armor suit still have 328 armor hp. You have twice the hp source left, along w/ having your armor rep asap, and can thrown down a supplied hive to be at almost full armor once the shield tankers shields even start to regen; so you'd be looking at 150 hp vs 490hp
One locus grenade will do the same to an armour tanker - 1-2 shots/bursts of a gun and you are dead. The locus has a chance of killing the person straight out, though, especially if properly cooked or using a decent grenade.
Those HP comparisons are given using your fitting numbers, though this is a highly debatable topic. I do not believe these fits are adequate for shield vs armour comparisons, and I doubt you will agree with any fits I suggest for comparative purposes.
I look forward to your response. Get some sleep if you're been up for 24 hours though, man. 
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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