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Proof the RR is OP - Proto Breach AR vs. standard RR

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DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4142	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:21:00 - [1] - Quote CreoDron Breach Assault Rifle Damage - 56.1 HP Fire rate -400 RPM Accuracy - 58.0 Mag size - 36 Max Ammo - 300 Reload time - 3.0 s CPU - 90 gF PG - 13 kW Price - 77,280! ISK Standard Rail Rifle Damage - 55.00 HP Charge up - 0.25s Fire rate - 461.54 RPM Accuracy rating - 58.28 Mag size - 42 Max Ammo - 252 Reload time - 3.2 s CPU - 26 gF PG - 6 kW Price - 1,500 ISK The Stadard Rail Rifle has a higher fire rate, better accuracy costs a ton less, less requirements, better hipfire, bigger mag and loses to the CreoDron by only 1.1 damage... How did CCP expect the Rail Rifle to be balanced? Seriously the standard Rail Rifle is everything the PROTO Breach AR is and more. CCP, fix this, My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
IRON PATRIOT 1 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 97	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:25:00 - [2] - Quote They said they were gonna nerf it why are you still complaining
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1684	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:26:00 - [3] - Quote LOL 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 425	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:27:00 - [4] - Quote Interesting balance question you ask, but why compare the base RR to the breach variant? A better comparison might be between base models, IMO, rather than a rarely-used variant. IMO, of course....Lead
LUGMOS YELLOW JESUS EXP FORCE 307	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:28:00 - [5] - Quote My boy, it is very simple. The RR was specialized as a breach weapon, while the assault rifle was not. It is merely a variant. The biggest threat to my scout is everything. [Q] <-- Drink Moar Quafe
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1238	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:28:00 - [6] - Quote Yah but, the BAR has alwayse been a piece of junk, even at proto. {:)}{3GÇó>
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1686	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:29:00 - [7] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Interesting balance question you ask, but why compare the base RR to the breach variant? A better comparison might be between base models, IMO, rather than a rarely-used variant. IMO, of course....Lead Because the breach Plasma Rifle is the answer to the Caldari Rail Rifle, and th assault Rail Rifle is the answer to the Gallente Plasma Rifle. 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4614	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:29:00 - [8] - Quote IRON PATRIOT 1 wrote: They said they were gonna nerf it why are you still complaining NOT ONLY THIS. But you are comparing a Gallente Cheap knockoff of a Caldari Main Riffle,with the actual REAL DEAL. Doesnt seem very fair. Compare it to other main rifles,like the SCR or CR..... Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4142	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:29:00 - [9] - Quote IRON PATRIOT 1 wrote: They said they were gonna nerf it why are you still complaining Because it's one of those herp derp moments that just.really needed to be thrown into light. I mean the proof that it was going to be OP was EXTREMELY obvious and glaring. Honestly... I was so distraught I had to share it with the wider community. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4142	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:32:00 - [10] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: IRON PATRIOT 1 wrote: They said they were gonna nerf it why are you still complaining NOT ONLY THIS. But you are comparing a Gallente Cheap knockoff of a Caldari Main Riffle,with the actual REAL DEAL. Doesnt seem very fair. Compare it to other main rifles,like the SCR or CR..... What you all fail to realize is that the Assault variants of the AR are as good if not better than the AR itself. So why is the Breach AR not comparable to the RR? My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior

Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 425	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:34:00 - [11] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: Interesting balance question you ask, but why compare the base RR to the breach variant? A better comparison might be between base models, IMO, rather than a rarely-used variant. IMO, of course....Lead Because the breach Plasma Rifle is the answer to the Caldari Rail Rifle, and th assault Rail Rifle is the answer to the Gallente Plasma Rifle. Opinion, meta, blah. How many breach ARs do you see? The base AR (and GEK and Duo) are the most used variants, and as full auto weapons, compare much more directly to the RR both in terms of dynamics and frequency. Just seems much more logical to use a weapon you see on the battlefield and one that handles similarly.
Nosid Katona HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 78	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:38:00 - [12] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: IRON PATRIOT 1 wrote: They said they were gonna nerf it why are you still complaining NOT ONLY THIS. But you are comparing a Gallente Cheap knockoff of a Caldari Main Riffle,with the actual REAL DEAL. Doesnt seem very fair. Compare it to other main rifles,like the SCR or CR..... Alright then why don't we compare the assault variants of the other rifles to the PR, cause the TAC, Burst, and Breach are all cheap knockoffs right? Would only stand to reason that the other races knockoffs are just as "cheap" as ours are of their rifles right? -_- Vae Victis Valor Vet, R.I.P MAG
Delanus Turgias Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 234	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:42:00 - [13] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Yah but, the BAR has alwayse been a piece of junk, even at proto. No. Once there was a time where the bluedots feared to tread, for the deadly creo breach AR could slay them at any time, at any distance. But seriously, breach ARs used to be OP, for all the same reasons the RR is OP. Closed Beta Vet since May, 2012 TEST Alliance Best Alliance Proud owner of essentially every BPO in Dust
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 328	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:47:00 - [14] - Quote Don't forget ranges. Standard RR has 62m optimal and 85m effective. Proto Breach AR has 48m optimal and 78m effective range.
Debacle Nano BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 673	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:47:00 - [15] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Yah but, the BAR has alwayse been a piece of junk, even at proto. Used to be the bomb in beta. Closed beta anyone?
The Eristic Sad Panda Solutions 184	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:55:00 - [16] - Quote Delanus Turgias wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Yah but, the BAR has alwayse been a piece of junk, even at proto. No. Once there was a time where the bluedots feared to tread, for the deadly creo breach AR could slay them at any time, at any distance. But seriously, breach ARs used to be OP, for all the same reasons the RR is OP. QFT. (Still, the Breach could use a reasonable ROF buff, imo, unless everything else will be getting ROF nerfs next patch. It is bloody Blaster tech, after all.)
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1020	Posted - 2014.02.14 03:58:00 - [17] - Quote I would hold off from posting more RR threads until their nerf arrives. Focus on the CR instead.
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4620	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:06:00 - [18] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: IRON PATRIOT 1 wrote: They said they were gonna nerf it why are you still complaining NOT ONLY THIS. But you are comparing a Gallente Cheap knockoff of a Caldari Main Riffle,with the actual REAL DEAL. Doesnt seem very fair. Compare it to other main rifles,like the SCR or CR..... What you all fail to realize is that the Assault variants of the AR are as good if not better than the AR itself. So why is the Breach AR not comparable to the RR? LOL not really . If i can go 35-5 with a Toxin AR with prof 3 and nothing else so can everybody. But people like running in the middle of open areas and start gun fights with RR users that are 70mts away... XD AR is the best of the Plasma rifles. Keep the fight inside the 30-40mts , hipfire and lulz .... Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4144	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:12:00 - [19] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: IRON PATRIOT 1 wrote: They said they were gonna nerf it why are you still complaining NOT ONLY THIS. But you are comparing a Gallente Cheap knockoff of a Caldari Main Riffle,with the actual REAL DEAL. Doesnt seem very fair. Compare it to other main rifles,like the SCR or CR..... What you all fail to realize is that the Assault variants of the AR are as good if not better than the AR itself. So why is the Breach AR not comparable to the RR? AR is the best of the Plasma rifles. Well nobody told me... Yo, I meant that why are the Assault variants of the other rifles (ASCR, ACR, ARR) just as good if not better than the AR? Shouldn't they be worse? My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Renegade Alliance 202	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:21:00 - [20] - Quote shame the rail is getting nerfed. It's the combat rifle that's op.

Debacle Nano BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 680	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:23:00 - [21] - Quote Wait.. isn't the only plasma rifle the AR? Or am I missing something? Closed beta anyone?
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4621	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:24:00 - [22] - Quote Nosid Katona wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: IRON PATRIOT 1 wrote: They said they were gonna nerf it why are you still complaining NOT ONLY THIS. But you are comparing a Gallente Cheap knockoff of a Caldari Main Riffle,with the actual REAL DEAL. Doesnt seem very fair. Compare it to other main rifles,like the SCR or CR..... Alright then why don't we compare the assault variants of the other rifles to the PR, cause the TAC, Burst, and Breach are all cheap knockoffs right? Would only stand to reason that the other races knockoffs are just as "cheap" as ours are of their rifles right? -_- True, the ASCR is a piece of crap compared to the Duvolle. Quote: ''Yo, I meant that why are the Assault variants of the other rifles (ASCR, ACR, ARR) just as good if not better than the AR? Shouldn't they be worse?'' -AZTEC Well, THe Asault RR is pretty beasty,probably SAME as an AR. But the Assault CR , even the six kin is not as effective as the duvolle. and Needs reload/eats ammo way to frequently/fast. As i stated before, the ASCR is a joke compared to the DVLLE.If you consider you will never apply full DPS since the rifle jumps more than my bed on a Saturday night (if you know what i mean) and after the shields are gone you will be applying a meres 80% , 95% with Prof 5 (but after 1.8 it will stay at 80%). Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 200	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:35:00 - [23] - Quote Lets water this down to DPS at proto: RR: 465.38 (2,541 damage per clip) Assault RR: 471.9 (1,981.98 damage per clip) CR: 704 (1,900.8 damage per clip) Assault CR: 464 (1,577.6 damage per clip) SCR: 931.76 (3,564 damage per clip) Assault SCR: 465.88 (2,851.2) AR: 467.5 (2,244 damage per clip) Tac AR: 523.6 (1,413.72 damage per clip) Breach AR: 374 (2,019.6 damage per clip) The breach AR has the worst DPS of any rifle weapon and the Tac AR is useless due to unreasonable kick and hipfire spread. The regular AR has only slightly better DPS than the Assault SCR and CR but is worse than the Assault RR while having inferior range to all 3. The scrambler rifle has the best possible DPS but is limited by overheat, the CR is the next best and is abused by people with modded controllers. The rail rifle has 2 less DPS than the AR but has a superior ability to apply DPS from hip fire, therefore making it the best CQC weapon and the longest range weapon as well. The Assault scrambler rifle also has 2 less DPS but has 600 more damage per clip, making it better due to longer range and able to put out damage longer while the AR has to reload. The Assault CR has 3 less DPS but has superior range, the AR has a greater damage per clip and a clear disadvantage at range. Result: The only real weapon the AR has the advantage over in CQC is the assault combat rifle and only by merit of having more damage per clip, it is inferior to every other weapon in every possible aspect.
stlcarlos989 SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1129	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:37:00 - [24] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Yah but, the BAR has alwayse been a piece of junk, even at proto. I guess you never played during closed beta when the Credron was king. STB Director, #1 in Warpoints E3 Closed Beta Build, Water Pipe Aficionado, Cannabis Sativa Connoisseur
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4622	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:39:00 - [25] - Quote People using DPS math to decide if a weapon is good or not are insane. IT IS A FACTOR BUT (the BREACH AR sucks,there is no denying it): There is a difference between Optimal DPS and conistency to apply it. Great example is the ASCR that misses lost of shots due to unreasonable kick and flash. and The SCR RIFLE that if it misses the first charged shot ends up having less DPS than every sidearm bar the FP. I prefer consistency of DPS than Max POSSIBLE DPS. There is where the AR comes in, the AR is by far the best weapon because you can ACTUALLY HIT ALL 60 BULLETS IN A ROW, with consistency, sometimes only by Hipfiring... Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 202	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:44:00 - [26] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: People using DPS math to decide if a weapon is good or not are insane. IT IS A FACTOR BUT (the BREACH AR sucks,there is no denying it): There is a difference between Optimal DPS and conistency to apply it. Great example is the ASCR that misses lost of shots due to unreasonable kick and flash. and The SCR RIFLE that if it misses the first charged shot ends up having less DPS than every sidearm bar the FP. I prefer consistency of DPS than Max POSSIBLE DPS. There is where the AR comes in, the AR is by far the best weapon because you can ACTUALLY HIT ALL 60 BULLETS IN A ROW, with consistency, sometimes only by Hipfiring... I can apply better hipfire DPS with my RR than my AR, it has a hipfire cone that is just tight enough that even at 15-20 meter I still get great damage application. At those ranges I would have to aim down sights with my AR which would make me even more vulnerable to the RR due to slower movement and his greater mobility.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4144	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:45:00 - [27] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Great example is the ASCR that misses lost of shots due to unreasonable kick and flash. and The SCR RIFLE that if it misses the first charged shot ends up having less DPS than every sidearm bar the FP. [b] You do realize the kick is all visual, right? They do the same thing in COD, they make it appear that the kick of the weapon makes it inaccurate but the kick reset is so fast that as long as you do not try to compensate, then the shots will land close together. It's just a mind trick, like when they make running with nova knives look faster than ruining with the Swarm Launcher. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4622	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:49:00 - [28] - Quote Texs Red wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: People using DPS math to decide if a weapon is good or not are insane. IT IS A FACTOR BUT (the BREACH AR sucks,there is no denying it): There is a difference between Optimal DPS and conistency to apply it. Great example is the ASCR that misses lost of shots due to unreasonable kick and flash. and The SCR RIFLE that if it misses the first charged shot ends up having less DPS than every sidearm bar the FP. I prefer consistency of DPS than Max POSSIBLE DPS. There is where the AR comes in, the AR is by far the best weapon because you can ACTUALLY HIT ALL 60 BULLETS IN A ROW, with consistency, sometimes only by Hipfiring... I can apply better hipfire DPS with my RR than my AR, it has a hipfire cone that is just tight enough that even at 15-20 meter I still get great damage application. At those ranges I would have to aim down sights with my AR which would make me even more vulnerable to the RR due to slower movement and his greater mobility. True true. But still the Ar is a lot better at CQ. Im NOT TALKING the = ''oh i find an enemy and stand there receiving RR shots to the face while i hipfire my AR at the roof and then come to the Forums to QQ on how the RR is the best weapon at CQ,'' kind of CQ of course.... I am willing to prove how a profile dampened assault with an AR can pretty much wreck anything... Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4622	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:51:00 - [29] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: You do realize the kick is all visual, right? They do the same thing in COD, they make it appear that the kick of the weapon makes it inaccurate but the kick reset is so fast that as long as you do not try to compensate, then the shots will land close together. It's just a mind trick, like when they make running with nova knives look faster than ruining with the Swarm Launcher. Well if its Visual it still makes me miss like 30% of my shots .... XD (BTW no i didnt know that) Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4622	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:54:00 - [30] - Quote Anyhow , comparing the Breach AR that is one of the most UP weapons in the game vs the RR,one of the most powerful and solid weapons is just....not the way to go. It makes people miss the point. Next thing you know i'll make a post that says: ''Breach AR is OP. Compared to the FP.'' LOL And the fact they are both , slow automatic weapons is no base to compare them. PLUS> CCP announced a BRCH buff and a RR nerf so there.... stop it XD Support Amarr scout bonus change! : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1813029#post1813029

Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 202	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:55:00 - [31] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: [ True true. But still the Ar is a lot better at CQ. Im NOT TALKING the = ''oh i find an enemy and stand there receiving RR shots to the face while i hipfire my AR at the roof and then come to the Forums to QQ on how the RR is the best weapon at CQ,'' kind of CQ of course.... I am willing to prove how a profile dampened assault with an AR can pretty much wreck anything... I would love to have a profile damped Gallente assault with an AR (proper Gallente tactics), however a Caldari assault with a RR could do it better. The Caldari could retain tank (shields) while gaining a profile low enough to avoid ADV scanners and the RR is superior to the AR at hipfire, range, and damage per clip so why use the AR?
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK 317	Posted - 2014.02.14 05:34:00 - [32] - Quote Texs Red wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: [ True true. But still the Ar is a lot better at CQ. Im NOT TALKING the = ''oh i find an enemy and stand there receiving RR shots to the face while i hipfire my AR at the roof and then come to the Forums to QQ on how the RR is the best weapon at CQ,'' kind of CQ of course.... I am willing to prove how a profile dampened assault with an AR can pretty much wreck anything... I would love to have a profile damped Gallente assault with an AR (proper Gallente tactics), however a Caldari assault with a RR could do it better. The Caldari could retain tank (shields) while gaining a profile low enough to avoid ADV scanners and the RR is superior to the AR at hipfire, range, and damage per clip so why use the AR? This is not frogking spread sheets in space. There are tooooooo many human variables that blow the statistical DPS bullsiht right out of the water. On paper, the dps of a kalaak rail rolls in the 480 range. Try walking with that damn thing in ads and hitting each shot. Then add in a simple adadadada strafe. Then the enemy jumps. And since each bolt has a travel time that is different at each range, each enemy movement has a higher chance to miss being hit by the bolt. All of a sudden your 42 bolt mag is empty and that smug bastard is running off with 75% armor. This goes the same for the AR. Strafe, dance, jump blah blah blah. putting raw DPS stats into a discussion in a FPS is mind-blowingly ignorant. There are simply too f c king many battlefield variations that mess up everything excel told you about. PS why are we mucking about with medium suit profiles, theyre goign to get scanned unless your insane with fitting? CEO of SAM-MIK...sometimes. (shhh don't tell anyone, they'll start asking questions)
Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Renegade Alliance 204	Posted - 2014.02.14 05:35:00 - [33] - Quote Texs Red wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: [ True true. But still the Ar is a lot better at CQ. Im NOT TALKING the = ''oh i find an enemy and stand there receiving RR shots to the face while i hipfire my AR at the roof and then come to the Forums to QQ on how the RR is the best weapon at CQ,'' kind of CQ of course.... I am willing to prove how a profile dampened assault with an AR can pretty much wreck anything... I would love to have a profile damped Gallente assault with an AR (proper Gallente tactics), however a Caldari assault with a RR could do it better. The Caldari could retain tank (shields) while gaining a profile low enough to avoid ADV scanners and the RR is superior to the AR at hipfire, range, and damage per clip so why use the AR? Do shields or armor increase scan profile in eve?
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK 317	Posted - 2014.02.14 05:36:00 - [34] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: Texs Red wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: [ True true. But still the Ar is a lot better at CQ. Im NOT TALKING the = ''oh i find an enemy and stand there receiving RR shots to the face while i hipfire my AR at the roof and then come to the Forums to QQ on how the RR is the best weapon at CQ,'' kind of CQ of course.... I am willing to prove how a profile dampened assault with an AR can pretty much wreck anything... I would love to have a profile damped Gallente assault with an AR (proper Gallente tactics), however a Caldari assault with a RR could do it better. The Caldari could retain tank (shields) while gaining a profile low enough to avoid ADV scanners and the RR is superior to the AR at hipfire, range, and damage per clip so why use the AR? Do shields or armor increase scan profile in eve? shields and theres very little you can do to dampen profiles in eve CEO of SAM-MIK...sometimes. (shhh don't tell anyone, they'll start asking questions)
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. 3145	Posted - 2014.02.14 05:48:00 - [35] - Quote I love Breach too! Creodron still feels powerful nonetheless....but rail rifle definitely takes that feel to bed bath and beyond. Please deposit likes in Swiss Bank account. The Feds don't ensure beyond 3k.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 1644	Posted - 2014.02.14 06:01:00 - [36] - Quote Soldner VonKuechle wrote: Texs Red wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: [ True true. But still the Ar is a lot better at CQ. Im NOT TALKING the = ''oh i find an enemy and stand there receiving RR shots to the face while i hipfire my AR at the roof and then come to the Forums to QQ on how the RR is the best weapon at CQ,'' kind of CQ of course.... I am willing to prove how a profile dampened assault with an AR can pretty much wreck anything... I would love to have a profile damped Gallente assault with an AR (proper Gallente tactics), however a Caldari assault with a RR could do it better. The Caldari could retain tank (shields) while gaining a profile low enough to avoid ADV scanners and the RR is superior to the AR at hipfire, range, and damage per clip so why use the AR? This is not frogking spread sheets in space. There are tooooooo many human variables that blow the statistical DPS bullsiht right out of the water. On paper, the dps of a kalaak rail rolls in the 480 range. Try walking with that damn thing in ads and hitting each shot. Then add in a simple adadadada strafe. Then the enemy jumps. And since each bolt has a travel time that is different at each range, each enemy movement has a higher chance to miss being hit by the bolt. All of a sudden your 42 bolt mag is empty and that smug bastard is running off with 75% armor. This goes the same for the AR. Strafe, dance, jump blah blah blah. putting raw DPS stats into a discussion in a FPS is mind-blowingly ignorant. There are simply too f c king many battlefield variations that mess up everything excel told you about. PS why are we mucking about with medium suit profiles, theyre goign to get scanned unless your insane with fitting? I raise you one hitscan (i.e. no travel time) and one 'some people can actually shoot'. Assuming the SAME person is using the weapons against the SAME target we see that the RR is better than the BAR. Anything you can do with Creo, Kaal can do better. For cheaper. ON topic. ScR is also unarguably better than TAR, and BuAR has been gimped since they took away seven-shot burst. I'd definitely call ACR over AR, despite what anyone else says - the range is awesome to have, and 1500 damage per mag is enough to kill anybody, particularly considering negligible penalty for missing a shot or two (that is to say, 22 damage per missed shot). Happily printing ISK with permahardeners and MLT blasters. Just let me get a couple mil more before nerf, CCP!
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4148	Posted - 2014.02.14 06:16:00 - [37] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: I love Breach too! Creodron still feels powerful nonetheless....but rail rifle definitely takes that feel to bed bath and beyond. The Breach AR has gone the way of the Revolver, there's just no point in having a six shot .38 when you can have a 15 shot semi auto .45. The Breach AR is the worst type of obsolete. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 191	Posted - 2014.02.14 06:48:00 - [38] - Quote The problem with the Breach AR, in comparison with the RR, is the ROF. The ROF of the Breach AR is far too low to be of any use in the range that it operates in. Increase the ROF to somewhere between 475 and 500 RPM, and the Breach will be useful again.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 1645	Posted - 2014.02.14 07:42:00 - [39] - Quote Hagintora wrote: The problem with the Breach AR, in comparison with the RR, is the ROF. The ROF of the Breach AR is far too low to be of any use in the range that it operates in. Increase the ROF to somewhere between 475 and 500 RPM, and the Breach will be useful again. And AR starts to lose its niche. Buffing BAR to match an OP weapon is not the right way to go. Happily printing ISK with permahardeners and MLT blasters. Just let me get a couple mil more before nerf, CCP!
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 191	Posted - 2014.02.14 08:05:00 - [40] - Quote How does the AR lose it's niche by bringing an UP weapon variant up to usefulness? Everything else stays the same, only the ROF increases. Increasing the ROF doesn't come close to matching the RR, even if the DPS for both weapons is the same, as the RR can do that damage over a much longer distance. I tried using the Breach AR, but switched over to a STD RR. Not because of the range, but because the RR has a higher ROF than the Breach. Increase the ROF on the Breach and it becomes a very nice Short-CQC range weapon.

Oxskull Duncarino Tickle My Null-Sac 426	Posted - 2014.02.14 08:13:00 - [41] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: CreoDron Breach Assault Rifle Damage - 56.1 HP Fire rate -400 RPM Accuracy - 58.0 Mag size - 36 Max Ammo - 300 Reload time - 3.0 s CPU - 90 gF PG - 13 kW Price - 77,280! ISK Standard Rail Rifle Damage - 55.00 HP Charge up - 0.25s Fire rate - 461.54 RPM Accuracy rating - 58.28 Mag size - 42 Max Ammo - 252 Reload time - 3.2 s CPU - 26 gF PG - 6 kW Price - 1,500 ISK The Stadard Rail Rifle has a higher fire rate, better accuracy costs a ton less, less requirements, better hipfire, bigger mag and loses to the CreoDron by only 1.1 damage... How did CCP expect the Rail Rifle to be balanced? Seriously the standard Rail Rifle is everything the PROTO Breach AR is and more. CCP, fix this, EDIT* Some of you say that variant are suppose to be bad, but have you picked up the ASCR, ARR or ACR? They are just as good, and in some instances better, than the AR, the weapon they are are "knocking off". Yeh, this has been annoying me for a while. Even with full proficiency in the AR I do better using a basic rail with op 1 than using the breach ar. I've found the same with the burst AR and the combat rifle.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1819	Posted - 2014.02.14 08:33:00 - [42] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Interesting balance question you ask, but why compare the base RR to the breach AR variant? A better comparison might be between base models, IMO, rather than a rarely-used variant. IMO, of course....Lead [edited to add: In the end, the real balance comes on the battlefield, not necessarily by the numbers, so I always view these types of threads with a bit of a jaundiced eye.] Because the breach has the highest damage of the Gal ARs. And at that, it's not much more powerful than the STD rail rifle. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Kal Kronos L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 189	Posted - 2014.02.14 10:31:00 - [43] - Quote This thread again x.x AR is more error friendly and I will accept no BS to the contrary. With its ROF a missed shot doesn't matter multiple missed shots dont matter. AR vs RR people of equal skill at CQ AR wins, if a RR beats you in CQ learn to strafe and aim. Don't stand skill and get ass raped then pitch a fit because theres no way you need to work on your FPS skills. "O but I have CQC weapon I should win." No you shouldn't because they are obviously better than you are, cry more. Beyond that the CR is ten times better in CQC than the RR, and don't get me started on spambler rifle vs my shield suit. What's not to love about the scrambler rifle, the thing is a precision weapon and at the same time a shotgun.
excillon The Wreckers 244	Posted - 2014.02.14 10:59:00 - [44] - Quote Dude, the Breach AR's have been broken for sooooo long. I used to love em too, so it's really sad.
demonkiller 12 G.L.O.R.Y 390	Posted - 2014.02.14 11:04:00 - [45] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: CreoDron Breach Assault Rifle Damage - 56.1 HP Fire rate -400 RPM Accuracy - 58.0 Mag size - 36 Max Ammo - 300 Reload time - 3.0 s CPU - 90 gF PG - 13 kW Price - 77,280! ISK Standard Rail Rifle Damage - 55.00 HP Charge up - 0.25s Fire rate - 461.54 RPM Accuracy rating - 58.28 Mag size - 42 Max Ammo - 252 Reload time - 3.2 s CPU - 26 gF PG - 6 kW Price - 1,500 ISK The Stadard Rail Rifle has a higher fire rate, better accuracy costs a ton less, less requirements, better hipfire, bigger mag and loses to the CreoDron by only 1.1 damage... How did CCP expect the Rail Rifle to be balanced? Seriously the standard Rail Rifle is everything the PROTO Breach AR is and more. CCP, fix this, EDIT* Some of you say that variant are suppose to be bad, but have you picked up the ASCR, ARR or ACR? They are just as good, and in some instances better, than the AR, the weapon they are are "knocking off". all breach ARs are **** and lose to melee
demonkiller 12 G.L.O.R.Y 390	Posted - 2014.02.14 11:05:00 - [46] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: CreoDron Breach Assault Rifle Damage - 56.1 HP Fire rate -400 RPM Accuracy - 58.0 Mag size - 36 Max Ammo - 300 Reload time - 3.0 s CPU - 90 gF PG - 13 kW Price - 77,280! ISK Standard Rail Rifle Damage - 55.00 HP Charge up - 0.25s Fire rate - 461.54 RPM Accuracy rating - 58.28 Mag size - 42 Max Ammo - 252 Reload time - 3.2 s CPU - 26 gF PG - 6 kW Price - 1,500 ISK The Stadard Rail Rifle has a higher fire rate, better accuracy costs a ton less, less requirements, better hipfire, bigger mag and loses to the CreoDron by only 1.1 damage... How did CCP expect the Rail Rifle to be balanced? Seriously the standard Rail Rifle is everything the PROTO Breach AR is and more. CCP, fix this, EDIT* Some of you say that variant are suppose to be bad, but have you picked up the ASCR, ARR or ACR? They are just as good, and in some instances better, than the AR, the weapon they are are "knocking off". also breach AR has much better hipfire than RR so not sure why you said it was the other way around
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 1667	Posted - 2014.02.14 11:27:00 - [47] - Quote Afaik, Breach AR, Tactical AR and the Burst AR were placeholders rispectively for Rail Rifle, Scrambler Rifle and Combat Rifle. In other words, they shouldn't even exist anymore! Just Imagine a tactical variant of the rail rifle... Tank 514.
Ld Collins Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 112	Posted - 2014.02.14 11:52:00 - [48] - Quote Why not just make the balac and krin rifles purchasable with loyalty points. The balac has 857 rpm and the krin 750
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 208	Posted - 2014.02.14 14:28:00 - [49] - Quote Kal Kronos wrote: This thread again x.x AR is more error friendly and I will accept no BS to the contrary. With its ROF a missed shot doesn't matter multiple missed shots dont matter. AR vs RR people of equal skill at CQ AR wins, if a RR beats you in CQ learn to strafe and aim. Don't stand skill and get ass raped then pitch a fit because theres no way you need to work on your FPS skills. "O but I have CQC weapon I should win." No you shouldn't because they are obviously better than you are, cry more. Beyond that the CR is ten times better in CQC than the RR, and don't get me started on spambler rifle vs my shield suit. I don't see where you get that the AR is better, even if you miss. The spread on the AR is such that at about 12m I am applying maybe 70-80% of my DPS while the RR is still applying full DPS out to 15-17m due to it's tighter hipfire, I once killed someone at 30m with hipfire from my RR (from full health). Losing 1 second or a half a second of shots, both lose the same amount of damage but in the end the RR has more damage in it's clip than you do. Yes, there is a lot of skill in this game so that becomes a very large X factor but the numbers don't lie and the AR does have disadvantages. If your opponents lack of skill vs your abundance of it makes you win despite his statistical advantage then all power to you but he still had a numerical advantage. You may be very good with the AR in CQC but the stats say the RR has almost double the engagement range, more damage per clip, and a tighter hip fire. If done with two evenly match opponents the RR should win any engagement with an AR user if there is no other factors.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4159	Posted - 2014.02.14 15:16:00 - [50] - Quote Kal Kronos wrote: This thread again x.x AR is more error friendly and I will accept no BS to the contrary. With its ROF a missed shot doesn't matter multiple missed shots dont matter. AR vs RR people of equal skill at CQ AR wins, if a RR beats you in CQ learn to strafe and aim. Don't stand skill and get ass raped then pitch a fit because theres no way you need to work on your FPS skills. "O but I have CQC weapon I should win." No you shouldn't because they are obviously better than you are, cry more. Beyond that the CR is ten times better in CQC than the RR, and don't get me started on spambler rifle vs my shield suit. This is not an AR vs. RR thread. It's a Proto Breach AR vs. standard RR threard. The Breach AR is just not comparable in any way against RR, even though the TAR is comparable to the Scrambler Rifle and the Burst is slightly comparable to the CR. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior

DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4159	Posted - 2014.02.14 15:17:00 - [51] - Quote Ld Collins wrote: Why not just make the balac and krin rifles purchasable with loyalty points. The balac has 857 rpm and the krin 750 Wrong thread. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation ACME Holding Conglomerate 677	Posted - 2014.02.14 15:29:00 - [52] - Quote actually the assault cr is basically an smg with a little more range and less ammo. the burst cr could have its refire rate slowed down though to balance it. because how it works currently is that the second the burst finishes it can instantly be refired at that second. adding in a pause time of around .15 secs or somewhere around there could work to balance it out.
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution 689	Posted - 2014.02.14 15:48:00 - [53] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: EDIT* Some of you say that variant are suppose to be bad, but have you picked up the ASCR, ARR or ACR? They are just as good, and in some instances better, than the AR, the weapon they are are "knocking off". Variants are supposed to be bad. The problem is just that the AR (and variants) are UP relative to ScR, RR, and CP (and variants). I wouldn't say AScR, ARR, or ACR are better than AR. I use RR much more than AR, and AR much more than ARR. The problem is that the other rifle variants are roughly as good as the AR when they should be worse, because they're cheap copies. Basically this is the situation: ScR=RR=CR>AScR=ARR=ACR=AR>BrAR=BuAR=TAR=LR So if CCP did this: RR, CR, ScR (and variants) - nerf AR (and variants) - leave alone LR - buff They'd end up with this: ScR=RR=CR=AR=LR>AScR=ARR=ACR=BrAR=BuAR=TAR And all would be right in the world.
Oxskull Duncarino Tickle My Null-Sac 427	Posted - 2014.02.14 17:24:00 - [54] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Afaik, Breach AR, Tactical AR and the Burst AR were placeholders rispectively for Rail Rifle, Scrambler Rifle and Combat Rifle. In other words, they shouldn't even exist anymore! Just Imagine a tactical variant of the rail rifle... No they're not and were never placeholders for the other racial rifles, and this is from CCP themselves. Each race has a specific style of weapon, and then they have variants that attempt to copy other races styles. Gallente are the only ones with a full range, but all other races are to get theirs soon................tm The variants are suppose to be subpar to the originals they're based on but the Gallente plasma versions are absolute dirt in their present iteration, as it's massively cheaper AND more effective to spend just 12,000 SP for operations 1 and use a basic original of the weapon. Hopefully all the light weapon tweaks that are happening for 1.8 will bring the variants into line, and even maybe introduce other races to their variants. All we can do is live in hope
Tectonic Fusion 1049	Posted - 2014.02.14 17:40:00 - [55] - Quote +1 to comparing an UP weapon to an OP weapon! Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Oxskull Duncarino Tickle My Null-Sac 428	Posted - 2014.02.14 17:45:00 - [56] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: +1 to comparing an UP weapon to an OP weapon! Regardless of what descriptive qualities have been associated with the breach plasma rifle, as per CCP's own words, the breach is the Gallente's attempt to copy the Caldari's rail rifle. So the idea of comparing them is causing what exact issue for you?
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 210	Posted - 2014.02.14 17:53:00 - [57] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: This is not an AR vs. RR thread. It's a Proto Breach AR vs. standard RR threard. The Breach AR is just not comparable in any way against RR, even though the TAR is comparable to the Scrambler Rifle and the Burst is slightly comparable to the CR. The fact is that pre-Uprising CCP nerfed all the AR variants into the ground but when they introduced the new rifles they came with legitimate variants that work. The Tac AR, Burst AR, and Breach AR all need de-nerfed so they are again legitimate options to the AR. My opinion is to put them on par, damage wise, with the weapon they are supposed to mimic and the fact that their range is less is the limiting factor that prevents them from out competing the classic example. My thoughts: The Breach AR is brought up to RR DPS with a slight increase to ROF and damage. This makes it excellent for CQC fights but it's range is only slightly better than the regular AR and clearly worse than the actually RR. Clip 36, ROF 450, Damage at proto 62, DPS 465, Damage per clip 2,232 The Tac AR needs to have it's kick de-nerfed and regain some of it's clip size, perhaps 32 instead of the current 18. With the buff to heavies that is coming in 1.8 it could very well lack the damage per clip to kill a heavy. It's damage per clip will still be less than the scramber rifle and it's ROF as well. Damage per clip: 2513, DPS: 523.6 (only possible with a modded controller) Currently the burst AR is inferior in every aspect to the CR; it has less range, less damage, and a lower ROF than the CR. I say increase it's damage to 42.41 per shot in a 3 shot burst. Damage per clip: 2,664; DPS: 625 (impossible to reach with the refire delay)
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 984	Posted - 2014.02.14 18:09:00 - [58] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: CreoDron Breach Assault Rifle Damage - 56.1 HP Fire rate -400 RPM Accuracy - 58.0 Mag size - 36 Max Ammo - 300 Reload time - 3.0 s CPU - 90 gF PG - 13 kW Price - 77,280! ISK Standard Rail Rifle Damage - 55.00 HP Charge up - 0.25s Fire rate - 461.54 RPM Accuracy rating - 58.28 Mag size - 42 Max Ammo - 252 Reload time - 3.2 s CPU - 26 gF PG - 6 kW Price - 1,500 ISK The Stadard Rail Rifle has a higher fire rate, better accuracy costs a ton less, less requirements, better hipfire, bigger mag and loses to the CreoDron by only 1.1 damage... How did CCP expect the Rail Rifle to be balanced? Seriously the standard Rail Rifle is everything the PROTO Breach AR is and more. CCP, fix this, EDIT* Some of you say that variant are suppose to be bad, but have you picked up the ASCR, ARR or ACR? They are just as good, and in some instances better, than the AR, the weapon they are are "knocking off". LOL breach AR is a terrible weapon as is, what makes the RR OP vs AR is the fact that it has almost twice the range and better accuracy than the regular AR. DPS is about the same if both players are within close range. Uprising 1.7 - TANKDOMINATION!!1!!1! LOL Battle Academy LOL Plasma Cannon
Oxskull Duncarino Tickle My Null-Sac 428	Posted - 2014.02.14 18:11:00 - [59] - Quote Texs Red wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: This is not an AR vs. RR thread. It's a Proto Breach AR vs. standard RR threard. The Breach AR is just not comparable in any way against RR, even though the TAR is comparable to the Scrambler Rifle and the Burst is slightly comparable to the CR. The fact is that pre-Uprising CCP nerfed all the AR variants into the ground but when they introduced the new rifles they came with legitimate variants that work. The Tac AR, Burst AR, and Breach AR all need de-nerfed so they are again legitimate options to the AR. My opinion is to put them on par, damage wise, with the weapon they are supposed to mimic and the fact that their range is less is the limiting factor that prevents them from out competing the classic example. My thoughts: The Breach AR is brought up to RR DPS with a slight increase to ROF and damage. This makes it excellent for CQC fights but it's range is only slightly better than the regular AR and clearly worse than the actually RR. Clip 36, ROF 450, Damage at proto 62, DPS 465, Damage per clip 2,232 The Tac AR needs to have it's kick de-nerfed and regain some of it's clip size, perhaps 32 instead of the current 18. With the buff to heavies that is coming in 1.8 it could very well lack the damage per clip to kill a heavy. It's damage per clip will still be less than the scramber rifle and it's ROF as well. Damage per clip: 2513, DPS: 523.6 (only possible with a modded controller) Currently the burst AR is inferior in every aspect to the CR; it has less range, less damage, and a lower ROF than the CR. I say increase it's damage to 42.41 per shot in a 3 shot burst. Damage per clip: 2,664; DPS: 625 (impossible to reach with the refire delay) I wouldn't even increase the clip on the tac AR, just removing the kick would do. Maybe slightly increase its RPMs. As it stands both weapons can spam the trigger and both either have to reload, the tac AR, or cool down, the scrambler rifle, at about the same rounds fired point. Obviously the scrambler rifle gets to this point faster due to its RPM, but it is suppose to be better than the tac as it's an original, plus it comes with the ability to charge a shot. The tac AR has a better balance on damage between shield and armour damage so it helps go towards negating those extra bonus' the scrambler has without being actually better/equal. The breach at the very least needs a range increase to get close to the rail rifle, not very close but up there. Its advantage is that it doesn't have the charge time a rail rifle has, but that won't be enough of an advantage to make it better/equal. damage and RPM I'd be happy leaving as is to first see how these changes apply.
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 210	Posted - 2014.02.14 20:40:00 - [60] - Quote Oxskull Duncarino wrote: [quote=Texs Red][quote=DeadlyAztec11] I wouldn't even increase the clip on the tac AR, just removing the kick would do. Maybe slightly increase its RPMs. As it stands both weapons can spam the trigger and both either have to reload, the tac AR, or cool down, the scrambler rifle, at about the same rounds fired point. Obviously the scrambler rifle gets to this point faster due to its RPM, but it is suppose to be better than the tac as it's an original, plus it comes with the ability to charge a shot. The tac AR has a better balance on damage between shield and armour damage so it helps go towards negating those extra bonus' the scrambler has without being actually better/equal. The breach at the very least needs a range increase to get close to the rail rifle, not very close but up there. Its advantage is that it doesn't have the charge time a rail rifle has, but that won't be enough of an advantage to make it better/equal. damage and RPM I'd be happy leaving as is to first see how these changes apply. Edit - I actually feel the burst AR is the closest to its original, the combat rifle, but it still needs love since as I said before I have more success with a combat rifle at only operations 1 than I do with a burst AR at proficiency 5. Maybe I just suck with it Regardless of these other variants though, this thread is about the massive difference between the breach AR and the rail rifle. I don't thin we can actually do much theory crafting though until we see what changes CCP make to all the rifles in 1.8 My only concern with the Tac is that it will really struggle to deal with heavies and proto suits, it currently only has 1,413 damage per clip which is less than half of what the scrambler rifle has and the 1.8 heavies will have, on average, over 1k eHP before adding modules. The most glaring issue with the breach AR that I see is it's poor DPS, it's almost 100 less than the RR and is 120 less than the Assault RR. Even with the charge up time actually was a factor in a fight I think the breach AR would still lose from sheer lack of DPS vs the RR.

Th3rdSun L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 577	Posted - 2014.02.14 23:52:00 - [61] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Yah but, the BAR has alwayse been a piece of junk, even at proto. Obviously you weren't here for the E3 build when the CreoDron was godlike. All the range of the Duvolle with more base damage.
Jacques Cayton II Providence Guard Templis CALSF 597	Posted - 2014.02.15 00:33:00 - [62] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: CreoDron Breach Assault Rifle Damage - 56.1 HP Fire rate -400 RPM Accuracy - 58.0 Mag size - 36 Max Ammo - 300 Reload time - 3.0 s CPU - 90 gF PG - 13 kW Price - 77,280! ISK Standard Rail Rifle Damage - 55.00 HP Charge up - 0.25s Fire rate - 461.54 RPM Accuracy rating - 58.28 Mag size - 42 Max Ammo - 252 Reload time - 3.2 s CPU - 26 gF PG - 6 kW Price - 1,500 ISK The Stadard Rail Rifle has a higher fire rate, better accuracy costs a ton less, less requirements, better hipfire, bigger mag and loses to the CreoDron by only 1.1 damage... How did CCP expect the Rail Rifle to be balanced? Seriously the standard Rail Rifle is everything the PROTO Breach AR is and more. CCP, fix this, EDIT* Some of you say that variant are suppose to be bad, but have you picked up the ASCR, ARR or ACR? They are just as good, and in some instances better, than the AR, the weapon they are are "knocking off". hey bro the breach is a knockoff of the RR so yes the rr should be better stop complining you nerftards won the nerf bat is in full swing yet again We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 3206	Posted - 2014.02.15 00:36:00 - [63] - Quote Yes, they won. And still, their mouths run. Which means, they are just debating a point, just to debate a point. Far from entertaining. I hope the RR continues to destroy the RR whiners with extreme prejudice. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. For the State!! [email protected]
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3114	Posted - 2014.02.15 00:43:00 - [64] - Quote And the Tac isn't as good as the Scrambler, nor the Burst as good as the Combat. Do you know how weapon variants work? No.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4173	Posted - 2014.02.15 00:56:00 - [65] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: And the Tac isn't as good as the Scrambler, nor the Burst as good as the Combat. Do you know how weapon variants work? Then nerf the Assault/Scrambler Rifle-CR-RR. I find it extremely distasteful that full auto variants of other racial rifles are just as good as the AR but the variants the AR have a useless. If variants are going to be bad, they should be bad across all races, no exceptions. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
TEXA5 HiTM4N ROGUE SPADES 429	Posted - 2014.02.15 01:05:00 - [66] - Quote wolfman and his team have never released a weapon that was anywhere near balanced. you can't expect much out of them. remember this is the team that released a sidearm that had more damage and radius than a proto missile launcher and said "yep, that is game ready". Everything I say or do has the utmost importance.
Melchiah ARANeAE The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 501	Posted - 2014.02.15 02:10:00 - [67] - Quote To people that say the variants shouldn't be as good as the other rifles are, frankly, complete idiots. If the variants are no good, why bother using them? The choice of what rifle to use should be decided by what your chosen race/suit is. The racial assault and commando suits will give bonuses to their racial weapon types and the variants add to the list of weapons affected by these bonuses. If I run a Gal assault with it's bonus to Plasma weapons, would I want to use to have to use the ScR if I wanted a semi-auto rifle? Or a CR for burst? Also, the variants will benefit from the SP I've sunk into the various support skills for the AR. Would I want to use any other weapons If I'd sunk 1 million SP into ARs We want cake and tea.
Oxskull Duncarino Tickle My Null-Sac 431	Posted - 2014.02.15 02:22:00 - [68] - Quote Melchiah ARANeAE wrote: To people that say the variants shouldn't be as good as the other rifles are, frankly, complete idiots. If the variants are no good, why bother using them? The choice of what rifle to use should be decided by what your chosen race/suit is. The racial assault and commando suits will give bonuses to their racial weapon types and the variants add to the list of weapons affected by these bonuses. If I run a Gal assault with it's bonus to Plasma weapons, would I want to use to have to use the ScR if I wanted a semi-auto rifle? Or a CR for burst? Also, the variants will benefit from the SP I've sunk into the various support skills for the AR. Would I want to use any other weapons If I'd sunk 1 million SP into ARs Firstly, 1 mil isn't that much. Secondly, if you make variants just as good as the original weapon they copied, where's the incentive to use different racial weapons. Each race has a strength to their main weapon design that other races can try but not fully succed in emulating. It pushes diversity in choice. Although, if CCP did what you think should be done, I wouldn't mind playing with a tac AR that had a charged shot :D
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4181	Posted - 2014.02.15 02:33:00 - [69] - Quote Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Melchiah ARANeAE wrote: To people that say the variants shouldn't be as good as the other rifles are, frankly, complete idiots. If the variants are no good, why bother using them? The choice of what rifle to use should be decided by what your chosen race/suit is. The racial assault and commando suits will give bonuses to their racial weapon types and the variants add to the list of weapons affected by these bonuses. If I run a Gal assault with it's bonus to Plasma weapons, would I want to use to have to use the ScR if I wanted a semi-auto rifle? Or a CR for burst? Also, the variants will benefit from the SP I've sunk into the various support skills for the AR. Would I want to use any other weapons If I'd sunk 1 million SP into ARs Firstly, 1 mil isn't that much. Secondly, if you make variants just as good as the original weapon they copied, where's the incentive to use different racial weapons. Each race has a strength to their main weapon design that other races can try but not fully succed in emulating. It pushes diversity in choice. Although, if CCP did what you think should be done, I wouldn't mind playing with a tac AR that had a charged shot :D They shouldn't shoot as well as the real weapons but they should be competitive. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
Oxskull Duncarino Tickle My Null-Sac 432	Posted - 2014.02.15 02:39:00 - [70] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Melchiah ARANeAE wrote: To people that say the variants shouldn't be as good as the other rifles are, frankly, complete idiots. If the variants are no good, why bother using them? The choice of what rifle to use should be decided by what your chosen race/suit is. The racial assault and commando suits will give bonuses to their racial weapon types and the variants add to the list of weapons affected by these bonuses. If I run a Gal assault with it's bonus to Plasma weapons, would I want to use to have to use the ScR if I wanted a semi-auto rifle? Or a CR for burst? Also, the variants will benefit from the SP I've sunk into the various support skills for the AR. Would I want to use any other weapons If I'd sunk 1 million SP into ARs Firstly, 1 mil isn't that much. Secondly, if you make variants just as good as the original weapon they copied, where's the incentive to use different racial weapons. Each race has a strength to their main weapon design that other races can try but not fully succed in emulating. It pushes diversity in choice. Although, if CCP did what you think should be done, I wouldn't mind playing with a tac AR that had a charged shot :D They shouldn't shoot as well as the real weapons but they should be competitive. Exactly. If they're not competitive then we might as well not have them as options.

Melchiah ARANeAE The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 501	Posted - 2014.02.15 02:46:00 - [71] - Quote Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Firstly, 1 mil isn't that much. Secondly, if you make variants just as good as the original weapon they copied, where's the incentive to use different racial weapons. Each race has a strength to their main weapon design that other races can try but not fully succed in emulating. It pushes diversity in choice. Although, if CCP did what you think should be done, I wouldn't mind playing with a tac AR that had a charged shot :D I think you're kind of missing the point. What I'm saying is that you should use your races weapons as the suit is designed to work well with that weapon and should make that weapon (and it's variants) better than another races weapon on that same suit. If you use a Gal assault, you 'should' use the AR. If you run Cal assault, you 'should' run RR etc. (and by should, I mean from a min/maxing point of view. Feel free to use another races weapon if you're happy with it not being as efficient.) EVE is set up so the ships get good bonuses to their racial turrets and such have an incentive to stick with that turret type. This is how it should be in Dust. And I don't really see the variants as copies as the other rifles. They're just variants of the basic type (clue's in the name really). Much like there are variants of turrets in EVE. We want cake and tea.
Oxskull Duncarino Tickle My Null-Sac 432	Posted - 2014.02.15 02:59:00 - [72] - Quote Melchiah ARANeAE wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Firstly, 1 mil isn't that much. Secondly, if you make variants just as good as the original weapon they copied, where's the incentive to use different racial weapons. Each race has a strength to their main weapon design that other races can try but not fully succed in emulating. It pushes diversity in choice. Although, if CCP did what you think should be done, I wouldn't mind playing with a tac AR that had a charged shot :D I think you're kind of missing the point. What I'm saying is that you should use your races weapons as the suit is designed to work well with that weapon and should make that weapon (and it's variants) better than another races weapon on that same suit. If you use a Gal assault, you 'should' use the AR. If you run Cal assault, you 'should' run RR etc. (and by should, I mean from a min/maxing point of view. Feel free to use another races weapon if you're happy with it not being as efficient.) EVE is set up so the ships get good bonuses to their racial turrets and such have an incentive to stick with that turret type. This is how it should be in Dust. And I don't really see the variants as copies as the other rifles. They're just variants of the basic type (clue's in the name really). Much like there are variants of turrets in EVE. Are you new here or something. From the developers of Dust itself we know, and have known for a long time, that the variants are attempted copies of the other races rifles, and that the intention is for them to be not as powerful as the original. Since this has already been explained in this thread I presume you're just lazy. And much as there are moves to bring some mechanics over, this is NOT EvE. At present only 50% of suits after 1.8 will have benefits to their racial weapons, and that could very easily change to less. Do yourself a favour and actually read through the thread before commenting. Just because YOU think something should be the same as EvE doesn't change the fact it's not, by the Devs own intentions.
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 214	Posted - 2014.02.15 03:32:00 - [73] - Quote I agree, the variants should be inferior to the original. However that means that each of the assault variants need to be pulled back some, so they don't compete as well with the AR. To balance this though the racial assault suit should improve them enough in the race's intended niche that they become valid options.


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