DUST Search - Proof the RR is OP - Proto Breach AR vs. standard RR

Oxskull Duncarino wrote:

[quote=Texs Red][quote=DeadlyAztec11]
I wouldn't even increase the clip on the tac AR, just removing the kick would do. Maybe slightly increase its RPMs. As it stands both weapons can spam the trigger and both either have to reload, the tac AR, or cool down, the scrambler rifle, at about the same rounds fired point. Obviously the scrambler rifle gets to this point faster due to its RPM, but it is suppose to be better than the tac as it's an original, plus it comes with the ability to charge a shot. The tac AR has a better balance on damage between shield and armour damage so it helps go towards negating those extra bonus' the scrambler has without being actually better/equal.

The breach at the very least needs a range increase to get close to the rail rifle, not very close but up there. Its advantage is that it doesn't have the charge time a rail rifle has, but that won't be enough of an advantage to make it better/equal. damage and RPM I'd be happy leaving as is to first see how these changes apply.

Edit - I actually feel the burst AR is the closest to its original, the combat rifle, but it still needs love since as I said before I have more success with a combat rifle at only operations 1 than I do with a burst AR at proficiency 5. Maybe I just suck with it Lol

Regardless of these other variants though, this thread is about the massive difference between the breach AR and the rail rifle. I don't thin we can actually do much theory crafting though until we see what changes CCP make to all the rifles in 1.8


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Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 200	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:35:00 - [1] - Quote Lets water this down to DPS at proto: RR: 465.38 (2,541 damage per clip) Assault RR: 471.9 (1,981.98 damage per clip) CR: 704 (1,900.8 damage per clip) Assault CR: 464 (1,577.6 damage per clip) SCR: 931.76 (3,564 damage per clip) Assault SCR: 465.88 (2,851.2) AR: 467.5 (2,244 damage per clip) Tac AR: 523.6 (1,413.72 damage per clip) Breach AR: 374 (2,019.6 damage per clip) The breach AR has the worst DPS of any rifle weapon and the Tac AR is useless due to unreasonable kick and hipfire spread. The regular AR has only slightly better DPS than the Assault SCR and CR but is worse than the Assault RR while having inferior range to all 3. The scrambler rifle has the best possible DPS but is limited by overheat, the CR is the next best and is abused by people with modded controllers. The rail rifle has 2 less DPS than the AR but has a superior ability to apply DPS from hip fire, therefore making it the best CQC weapon and the longest range weapon as well. The Assault scrambler rifle also has 2 less DPS but has 600 more damage per clip, making it better due to longer range and able to put out damage longer while the AR has to reload. The Assault CR has 3 less DPS but has superior range, the AR has a greater damage per clip and a clear disadvantage at range. Result: The only real weapon the AR has the advantage over in CQC is the assault combat rifle and only by merit of having more damage per clip, it is inferior to every other weapon in every possible aspect.
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 202	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:44:00 - [2] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: People using DPS math to decide if a weapon is good or not are insane. IT IS A FACTOR BUT (the BREACH AR sucks,there is no denying it): There is a difference between Optimal DPS and conistency to apply it. Great example is the ASCR that misses lost of shots due to unreasonable kick and flash. and The SCR RIFLE that if it misses the first charged shot ends up having less DPS than every sidearm bar the FP. I prefer consistency of DPS than Max POSSIBLE DPS. There is where the AR comes in, the AR is by far the best weapon because you can ACTUALLY HIT ALL 60 BULLETS IN A ROW, with consistency, sometimes only by Hipfiring... I can apply better hipfire DPS with my RR than my AR, it has a hipfire cone that is just tight enough that even at 15-20 meter I still get great damage application. At those ranges I would have to aim down sights with my AR which would make me even more vulnerable to the RR due to slower movement and his greater mobility.
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 202	Posted - 2014.02.14 04:55:00 - [3] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: [ True true. But still the Ar is a lot better at CQ. Im NOT TALKING the = ''oh i find an enemy and stand there receiving RR shots to the face while i hipfire my AR at the roof and then come to the Forums to QQ on how the RR is the best weapon at CQ,'' kind of CQ of course.... I am willing to prove how a profile dampened assault with an AR can pretty much wreck anything... I would love to have a profile damped Gallente assault with an AR (proper Gallente tactics), however a Caldari assault with a RR could do it better. The Caldari could retain tank (shields) while gaining a profile low enough to avoid ADV scanners and the RR is superior to the AR at hipfire, range, and damage per clip so why use the AR?
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 208	Posted - 2014.02.14 14:28:00 - [4] - Quote Kal Kronos wrote: This thread again x.x AR is more error friendly and I will accept no BS to the contrary. With its ROF a missed shot doesn't matter multiple missed shots dont matter. AR vs RR people of equal skill at CQ AR wins, if a RR beats you in CQ learn to strafe and aim. Don't stand skill and get ass raped then pitch a fit because theres no way you need to work on your FPS skills. "O but I have CQC weapon I should win." No you shouldn't because they are obviously better than you are, cry more. Beyond that the CR is ten times better in CQC than the RR, and don't get me started on spambler rifle vs my shield suit. I don't see where you get that the AR is better, even if you miss. The spread on the AR is such that at about 12m I am applying maybe 70-80% of my DPS while the RR is still applying full DPS out to 15-17m due to it's tighter hipfire, I once killed someone at 30m with hipfire from my RR (from full health). Losing 1 second or a half a second of shots, both lose the same amount of damage but in the end the RR has more damage in it's clip than you do. Yes, there is a lot of skill in this game so that becomes a very large X factor but the numbers don't lie and the AR does have disadvantages. If your opponents lack of skill vs your abundance of it makes you win despite his statistical advantage then all power to you but he still had a numerical advantage. You may be very good with the AR in CQC but the stats say the RR has almost double the engagement range, more damage per clip, and a tighter hip fire. If done with two evenly match opponents the RR should win any engagement with an AR user if there is no other factors.
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 210	Posted - 2014.02.14 17:53:00 - [5] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: This is not an AR vs. RR thread. It's a Proto Breach AR vs. standard RR threard. The Breach AR is just not comparable in any way against RR, even though the TAR is comparable to the Scrambler Rifle and the Burst is slightly comparable to the CR. The fact is that pre-Uprising CCP nerfed all the AR variants into the ground but when they introduced the new rifles they came with legitimate variants that work. The Tac AR, Burst AR, and Breach AR all need de-nerfed so they are again legitimate options to the AR. My opinion is to put them on par, damage wise, with the weapon they are supposed to mimic and the fact that their range is less is the limiting factor that prevents them from out competing the classic example. My thoughts: The Breach AR is brought up to RR DPS with a slight increase to ROF and damage. This makes it excellent for CQC fights but it's range is only slightly better than the regular AR and clearly worse than the actually RR. Clip 36, ROF 450, Damage at proto 62, DPS 465, Damage per clip 2,232 The Tac AR needs to have it's kick de-nerfed and regain some of it's clip size, perhaps 32 instead of the current 18. With the buff to heavies that is coming in 1.8 it could very well lack the damage per clip to kill a heavy. It's damage per clip will still be less than the scramber rifle and it's ROF as well. Damage per clip: 2513, DPS: 523.6 (only possible with a modded controller) Currently the burst AR is inferior in every aspect to the CR; it has less range, less damage, and a lower ROF than the CR. I say increase it's damage to 42.41 per shot in a 3 shot burst. Damage per clip: 2,664; DPS: 625 (impossible to reach with the refire delay)
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 210	Posted - 2014.02.14 20:40:00 - [6] - Quote Oxskull Duncarino wrote: [quote=Texs Red][quote=DeadlyAztec11] I wouldn't even increase the clip on the tac AR, just removing the kick would do. Maybe slightly increase its RPMs. As it stands both weapons can spam the trigger and both either have to reload, the tac AR, or cool down, the scrambler rifle, at about the same rounds fired point. Obviously the scrambler rifle gets to this point faster due to its RPM, but it is suppose to be better than the tac as it's an original, plus it comes with the ability to charge a shot. The tac AR has a better balance on damage between shield and armour damage so it helps go towards negating those extra bonus' the scrambler has without being actually better/equal. The breach at the very least needs a range increase to get close to the rail rifle, not very close but up there. Its advantage is that it doesn't have the charge time a rail rifle has, but that won't be enough of an advantage to make it better/equal. damage and RPM I'd be happy leaving as is to first see how these changes apply. Edit - I actually feel the burst AR is the closest to its original, the combat rifle, but it still needs love since as I said before I have more success with a combat rifle at only operations 1 than I do with a burst AR at proficiency 5. Maybe I just suck with it Regardless of these other variants though, this thread is about the massive difference between the breach AR and the rail rifle. I don't thin we can actually do much theory crafting though until we see what changes CCP make to all the rifles in 1.8 My only concern with the Tac is that it will really struggle to deal with heavies and proto suits, it currently only has 1,413 damage per clip which is less than half of what the scrambler rifle has and the 1.8 heavies will have, on average, over 1k eHP before adding modules. The most glaring issue with the breach AR that I see is it's poor DPS, it's almost 100 less than the RR and is 120 less than the Assault RR. Even with the charge up time actually was a factor in a fight I think the breach AR would still lose from sheer lack of DPS vs the RR.
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 214	Posted - 2014.02.15 03:32:00 - [7] - Quote I agree, the variants should be inferior to the original. However that means that each of the assault variants need to be pulled back some, so they don't compete as well with the AR. To balance this though the racial assault suit should improve them enough in the race's intended niche that they become valid options.