I thought their suits were supposed to get a passive rep? NAyways, it shouldn't be 3, as Gallente are the best armor reppers in EVE and that should carry over to Dust. I say WInmatar gets a 2-3 passive, and Gallente gets a 3-4 passive.

Couldn't agree more.

Being a Min Logi, I often feel like I got conned into using the weakest suit in the game.

The only reason I am even still playing dust is the potential to max out hack speed on that suit, which is being overshadowed by Min Scouts in 1.8

Combining that with the logi nerf I will be absolutely disappointed in CCP if:

• We don't get a dropsuit respec
• Or at least balance Minmatar dropsuits so they're not the worst suits

I agree on the shield recharge idea. Minmatar speed and weapon play very much to a hit and run style adding a defense mechanism would really help

I can not agree with the free armor reps if they are getting more low slots. The Minmatar having 3 or 4 lows should have to fit armor reps if they want them. However if they keep the low slot count they have now then a 1hp/sec rep would seem to fit well

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=137506
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1774559#post1774559

Above are various threads that suggest it, but now I am out right requesting a balance for the minmatar dropsuits vs other dropsuits.

Why the need?
Essentially the minmatar is the weakest suit in every class with only marginally higher movement speed (6%) and the lowest EHP (25% less than a caldari/galente suit). This is disproportionate. To make matters worse in order to have any surviability you have to add armor plates with brings your movement speed in line with galente and caldari suits with still lower ehp.
To compound the problem 1 basic kin cat can bridge the speed gap of any suit with the minmatar suit (of the same class) and still have more EHP. Aim assist further exacerbates the problem making a "speed advantage" (of .3m/s ) meaningless.

Many people talk about the glass cannon theory saying that minmatar are supposed to have damage mods tanked and that minmatar have powerful weapons. This theory is shattered by the simple facts that:
1.) any suit can tank damage mods and still have more EHP than a minmatar of the same class
2.) any suit can carry minmatar weapons and use them to the same effectivity (unlike Scr where the amarr bonus makes them the best lazer tech users).

So, in essence minmatar are the weakest in dust.

Balance based on EVE trends and logic

Since in EVE Amarr have the most armor and galente in relation to them have the fastest rep on armor. Caldari should have the highest total shielding but minmatar should have the fastest shield recharge.

Since in dust, Amarr are supposed to have the highest total passive EHP (unmodified), Minmatar on the opposite end of the balance beam should have the highest (unmodded) shield recharge and passive armor reps.

the general flow from an EHP standpoint should be:
Amarr > Caldari> Galente> minmatar

the general flow from a fastest recharge and highest innate rep standpoint should be:
Minmatar > galente > Caldari > Amarr


Some may argue that minmatar are not armo tankers and that armar and galente should be the only ones with passive reps from an EVE standpoint. However this is false, according to lore Minmatar had a very important role in the invention of the rep tool, their meduim assault suits are literally modified logistics/engineer suits. They by all means lorewise should have a passive armor regen.

Also consider galente need a passive armor regen because that is how they operate in EVE. Period.
Amarr in EVE do not rep. armor. The amarr phyolsophy in EVE, is to have so much overwhelming armor that you cannot destroy their ships, pretty much you'd run out of ammo. This should be carried over to dust. unmodded amar suits should have no passive armor rep.Same for caldari their fight at range. passive armor rep is unessesary.


3 things can balance the minmatar suit against the other dropsuits

the following are three things that can potentially balance minmatar suits:
[list]

Having the fastest shield recharge in its class ie 15-25% than caldari (whichever number is closer to a balance) (namely the rechaege of the next lightest class ie. minmatar medium frame having the shield recharge of a galente scout unmodified).

Having a passive armor rep. of 2-3hp/s. (remember they have lower ehp.. in a 1 on 1 gun fight this will not make a difference. but, from engagement to engagement this will help. Giving meaning to the minmatar "hit and run style of warefare)

Giving their suits on all tiers the same number of High slots as Low slots (3 and 3, 4 and 4 etc)*

By implementing these recommendations I feel certain balance can be had among the dropsuits.

*note: minmatar are suposed to be the most versitile race.

1) minmatar suits don't have 25-30% less ehp, they have 25-30 less ehp total... that is less than 1 round from most weapons. It is not a significant difference in ANY way shape or form. Oh and currently there is no minmatar suit that can't have MORE ehp than a corresponding amarrian suit.

2) minmatar are the fastest at running/strafing/highest jumpers.

3) minmata have the second highest stamina and stamina regen.

4) minmatar trade 2 hp/sec shield regen for 1 hp/sec armor rep (only suits in the game whom have built in armor rep)

5) this is all outdated stuff, lets wait and see how the new suit stats play out.

I'm all for the Minmatar having a faster Shield regen than the Caldari, but I'm against the idea of having an inherent higher armor repair than the Gallente. A faster shield recharge lends itself to hit and run advantages in shield tanking. Assuming they had balanced highs and lows, they can choose to stack damage or shields, and speed or armor. Now it's not ideal in the short TTK environment we have now, but it still gives the Minmatar a flexibility other races don't have. They can't outdo anyone else at one thing except speed, but they can do pretty decently everywhere else. It's hard to be a hit and run Amarr, or a juggernaut HP stacking Caldari (unless it's a Caldadri Logi.... hopefully 1.8 fixes all the medium suit slots) or a high damage dealing Gallente (again hopefully new slot changes)

give them 5% more speed for the scout, and better shield recharge/recharge delay, plus 1 armor per second and ill be a happy minmitar

I dnt want this only for the scout. But for all minmatar dropsuits from assault, to logi to heavy and sentinel.

1) minmatar suits don't have 25-30% less ehp, they have 25-30 less ehp total... that is less than 1 round from most weapons. It is not a significant difference in ANY way shape or form. Oh and currently there is no minmatar suit that can't have MORE ehp than a corresponding amarrian suit.

2) minmatar are the fastest at running/strafing/highest jumpers.

3) minmata have the second highest stamina and stamina regen.

4) minmatar trade 2 hp/sec shield regen for 1 hp/sec armor rep (only suits in the game whom have built in armor rep)

5) this is all outdated stuff, lets wait and see how the new suit stats play out.

1. it is actually 25%-30% less ehp and regardless. trading EHP for a measly .3 m/s increase in movement speed is horrible. When it comes it engagements movement and strafe speed are very important, and .3m/s is neglibile. EHP is also important in engagements, so negligle movement speed + lower EHP = horrible dropsuit. period. Again, an amar suit of the same teir as a minmatar suit will ALWAYs have more EHP.

as a note, if the point to minmatar is hit and run, speed and regen. If i have to tank armor plates to have enough EHP to survive an encounter then i just mitigated my own speed advantage.

2. this is true. but moving .3 meters per second is not really that much of an advantage. the run speed is faster yes, but still its only 1m/s faster than a galente or caldari. nonetheless, we aren't comparing scouts so speed isn't that important.

3. this is true. however, being able to run longer doesn't help much if once i get to my objective i get instantely killed.

4. the minmatar logisitics suit does not have an innate armor rep. And the minmatar need this innate armor rep as this is inline with lore and eve. This may be removed in 1.8. which will make minmatar even weaker.

5. i'd rather not wait. because once something is released fixs normally dont come until a month or 2 later. i want the minmatar suit balanced. it won't take much to do it. i only recommended 3 things

1)
Base ehp has/is/will always be caldariand gallente ehp, so lets compare

cal/gal scout ehp = 200 (new values)
minmatar scout ehp = 170 (new values)

That is a 30 ehp (15% less, not 25-30%) difference

cal/gal sentinel = 925 ehp
minmatar sentinel = 835 ehp

that is a 90 ehp difference (10% less, not 25%-30%)

cal/gal/amarrian commando = 650 ehp
minmatar commando = 560 ehp

that is a 90 ehp difference (15% less, not 25%-30%)

cal/gal assault 330 ehp
min assault 285 ehp

45 hp difference (15% less not 25-30%)

cal/gal logi 270 ehp
min logi 240 ehp

30 hp difference (12% less, not 25-30%)

2)
a 0.3 m/s difference in movement speed is HUGE

a) nothing can make base movement faster

and

b) this difference is worth a little bit more (20% more) than a basic kinetic catalyzer (in other words the difference is worth more than a free basic module)

3) as shown above, the hp difference is rarely worth anything. To put it in realistic terms, we should use a basic no-skill AR to determine how long 30, 45, 90 hp really is....

no skill basic AR does 425 DPS

30 HP = 0.07 secs (or 7 hundreds of a second) meaningless
45 HP = 0.1 sec looking more like a trade-off
90 HP = 0.2 seconds a difference you might actually notice

yeah so this hp sacrifice is rofl.

4) I have been playing eve for close to a decade... innate armor repair is not in eve. I couldn't find it in the lore (although I did not read templar one)

5) Then you should be rallying for the amarrian stuff.... as it is now, minmatar suits get balanced stats, their scout is OMGWTF awesome, with bonuses that actualy make sense and work.

The amarrian stuff has horrible bonuses, the commando doesn't even get the HP advantage it trades speed for, the heat reduction bonuses are gone making amarrian weapons useless, and the amarrian scout is without a doubt the weakest of the 4.


Go sit in the corner.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=137506
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1774559#post1774559

Above are various threads that suggest it, but now I am out right requesting a balance for the minmatar dropsuits vs other dropsuits.

Why the need?
Essentially the minmatar is the weakest suit in every class with only marginally higher movement speed (6%) and the lowest EHP (25% less than a caldari/galente suit). This is disproportionate. To make matters worse in order to have any surviability you have to add armor plates with brings your movement speed in line with galente and caldari suits with still lower ehp.
To compound the problem 1 basic kin cat can bridge the speed gap of any suit with the minmatar suit (of the same class) and still have more EHP. Aim assist further exacerbates the problem making a "speed advantage" (of .3m/s ) meaningless.

Many people talk about the glass cannon theory saying that minmatar are supposed to have damage mods tanked and that minmatar have powerful weapons. This theory is shattered by the simple facts that:
1.) any suit can tank damage mods and still have more EHP than a minmatar of the same class
2.) any suit can carry minmatar weapons and use them to the same effectivity (unlike Scr where the amarr bonus makes them the best lazer tech users).

So, in essence minmatar are the weakest in dust.

Balance based on EVE trends and logic

Since in EVE Amarr have the most armor and galente in relation to them have the fastest rep on armor. Caldari should have the highest total shielding but minmatar should have the fastest shield recharge.

Since in dust, Amarr are supposed to have the highest total passive EHP (unmodified), Minmatar on the opposite end of the balance beam should have the highest (unmodded) shield recharge and passive armor reps.

the general flow from an EHP standpoint should be:
Amarr > Caldari> Galente> minmatar

the general flow from a fastest recharge and highest innate rep standpoint should be:
Minmatar > galente > Caldari > Amarr


Some may argue that minmatar are not armo tankers and that armar and galente should be the only ones with passive reps from an EVE standpoint. However this is false, according to lore Minmatar had a very important role in the invention of the rep tool, their meduim assault suits are literally modified logistics/engineer suits. They by all means lorewise should have a passive armor regen.

Also consider galente need a passive armor regen because that is how they operate in EVE. Period.
Amarr in EVE do not rep. armor. The amarr phyolsophy in EVE, is to have so much overwhelming armor that you cannot destroy their ships, pretty much you'd run out of ammo. This should be carried over to dust. unmodded amar suits should have no passive armor rep.Same for caldari their fight at range. passive armor rep is unessesary.


3 things can balance the minmatar suit against the other dropsuits

the following are three things that can potentially balance minmatar suits:
[list]

Having the fastest shield recharge in its class ie 15-25% than caldari (whichever number is closer to a balance) (namely the rechaege of the next lightest class ie. minmatar medium frame having the shield recharge of a galente scout unmodified).

Having a passive armor rep. of 2-3hp/s. (remember they have lower ehp.. in a 1 on 1 gun fight this will not make a difference. but, from engagement to engagement this will help. Giving meaning to the minmatar "hit and run style of warefare)

Giving their suits on all tiers the same number of High slots as Low slots (3 and 3, 4 and 4 etc)*

By implementing these recommendations I feel certain balance can be had among the dropsuits.

*note: minmatar are suposed to be the most versitile race.