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RR sacrifices no DPS compared to AR, gains huge range

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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8375	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:41:00 - [1] - Quote All stats are from prototype version Rages can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1690	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:43:00 - [2] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype version Rages can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. +1 Armor and Shields are not the same!
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 582	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:43:00 - [3] - Quote support this. would like to see Gal wpns with fast ADS, higher dmg, rof and best hipfire in the game. RR needs bad hipfire, longer spool and slower ADS,
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 296	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:44:00 - [4] - Quote really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC Intara Direct Action Caldari State 228	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:48:00 - [5] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype version Rages can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. Your not factoring in the shield efficacy bonus gal plasma rifle has. Your also not comparing 2 of the same versions of weapon, the gek or duvolle should only be comparable with the sl4 or iskukone.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2076	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:51:00 - [6] - Quote I think making it have high dispersion when hipfiring and a .25 increase to spool up time would balance the weapon. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8378	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:54:00 - [7] - Quote INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype version Rages can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. Your not factoring in the shield efficacy bonus gal plasma rifle has. Your also not comparing 2 of the same versions of weapon, the gek or duvolle should only be comparable with the sl4 or iskukone. AR shield bonus is matched by RR armor bonus, so no need to account for bonuses/resistances. I compared the Kaalakiota rail rifle to the Duvolle AR, both prototype, both automatic. I don't see why I should only compare it against the assault RR. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10341	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:55:00 - [8] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob ..... Only if you're a RR noob who can only land half his shots.... Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 296	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:57:00 - [9] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob ..... Only if you're a RR noob who can only land half his shots.... no becuase im not RR noob im pilot speding most of my time in the sky but the time i spend on the ground i know that RR isent Op you just cant get over the fact that now there is more then 1 dominating gun,now there are 3. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 296	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:58:00 - [10] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype version Rages can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. Your not factoring in the shield efficacy bonus gal plasma rifle has. Your also not comparing 2 of the same versions of weapon, the gek or duvolle should only be comparable with the sl4 or iskukone. AR shield bonus is matched by RR armor bonus, so no need to account for bonuses/resistances. I compared the Kaalakiota rail rifle to the Duvolle AR, both prototype, both automatic. I don't see why I should only compare it against the assault RR. AR has a fatser TTK and a higher ROF meaning its easier to hit your target and quiker to take them down. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 396	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:59:00 - [11] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible Considering you did the math I guess you realize that the AR does 116 damage in the time it takes the RR to spool up? Is that not a serious advantage for the RR user? I would strongly advice against doubling the spool up time. I barely use the RR, but I feel that it would be completely gone if spool-up was increased by more than maybe 0.1 of a second.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10343	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:00:00 - [12] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible Considering you did the math I guess you realize that the AR does 116 damage in the time it takes the RR to spool up? Is that not a serious advantage for the RR user? I would strongly advice against doubling the spool up time. I barely use the RR, but I feel that it would be completely gone if spool-up was increased by more than maybe 0.1 of a second. Well, it's supposed to be a meaningful drawback in CQC, and the spool up is negligible in general at long ranges since you can generally dictate when that engagement begins Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8378	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:01:00 - [13] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob So RR gets a massive optimal that's about the size of the AR's effective range, but it doesn't sacrifice any DPS compared to the AR to get that huge range advantage; gaining huge advantages without gaining disadvantages as well is the definition of imbalance, advantages and disadvantages have to be balanced with each other. Even if the AR fights an RR in the AR's own optimal range, the DPS between both rifles will just be about the same, and the AR doesn't have any decisive advantages even in its own optimal. I'm not an "AR noob", I use SCR. RR noob Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Zimander Tickle My Null-Sac 25	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:02:00 - [14] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype version Rages can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. NO ITS NOT RR have -15% to armor and +10% or +15% to shield when AR have -5% to shield and +5 to armor or something like that so when u go against Armor u loos
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8378	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:05:00 - [15] - Quote Zimander wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype version Rages can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. NO ITS NOT RR have -15% to armor and +10% or +15% to shield when AR have -5% to shield and +5 to armor or something like that so when u go against Armor u loos LOL RR has -10% against shields, and +10% against armor AR has +10% against shields, and -10% against armor Get your facts straight Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 293	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:07:00 - [16] - Quote AR works better against shields. RR has spool up, which limits DPS in the first second. Neither were taken into account by the OP.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8378	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:07:00 - [17] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype version Rages can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. Your not factoring in the shield efficacy bonus gal plasma rifle has. Your also not comparing 2 of the same versions of weapon, the gek or duvolle should only be comparable with the sl4 or iskukone. AR shield bonus is matched by RR armor bonus, so no need to account for bonuses/resistances. I compared the Kaalakiota rail rifle to the Duvolle AR, both prototype, both automatic. I don't see why I should only compare it against the assault RR. AR has a fatser TTK and a higher ROF meaning its easier to hit your target and quiker to take them down. I already showed in the OP that they have nearly identical TTK with the damage per second calculations. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 293	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:11:00 - [18] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype version Rages can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. Your not factoring in the shield efficacy bonus gal plasma rifle has. Your also not comparing 2 of the same versions of weapon, the gek or duvolle should only be comparable with the sl4 or iskukone. AR shield bonus is matched by RR armor bonus, so no need to account for bonuses/resistances. I compared the Kaalakiota rail rifle to the Duvolle AR, both prototype, both automatic. I don't see why I should only compare it against the assault RR. AR has a fatser TTK and a higher ROF meaning its easier to hit your target and quiker to take them down. I already showed in the OP that they have nearly identical TTK with the damage per second calculations. And I believe you neglected to take into account the effect of spool up in your calculations -- so your numbers are wrong. Respectfully...Leadfoot
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 296	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:11:00 - [19] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob So RR gets a massive optimal that's about the size of the AR's effective range, but it doesn't sacrifice any DPS compared to the AR to get that huge range advantage; gaining huge advantages without gaining disadvantages as well is the definition of imbalance, advantages and disadvantages have to be balanced with each other. Even if the AR fights an RR in the AR's own optimal range, the DPS between both rifles will just be about the same, and the AR doesn't have any decisive advantages even in its own optimal. I'm not an "AR noob", I use SCR. RR noob ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~`-»lllllll`~,...................................... .......................,-~`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll-»`-,........................... ..................,-~llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-,..................... ...............,-llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\.................. .............;`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................. ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,............... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-...........`~-~-,...(.(-»`,`,................. ................\llllllllllll,-~.....................)_-\..`;..).................... .................\,-`-»,`)............,-~`~................/..................... ..................\|/.../.../~,......-~,-~`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..~,.`~...................\................. ................\|.../.../.../.`...\...........................)....)-»`~,.................. ................\|./.../..../.......)......,.)`~-,............/....\|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,`-,.....`-,...`....,---......\..../...../..\|.........-»```~-,,,, ...............(..........)`~-,....``.,-~.,-......\|.../..../.../............\........ ................-,.......`-,...`~,..``.,,,-..........\|.,...,...\|..............\........ ...................,.........`-,...)-,..............,-`...,-....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...-,___,,-~....,-......\|...`-,..........\........ Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results*." - Albert Einstein
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8380	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:11:00 - [20] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: AR works better against shields. RR has spool up, which limits DPS in the first second. Neither were taken into account by the OP. Seriously? The shields/armor advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out since neither has a bigger bonus or disadvantage to their respective strong point (shield or armor) than the other. I did cover the spool up time, I said it wasn't enough to really make a difference. The massive range advantage still more than makes up for it. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

Izlare Lenix FREE AGENTS LP 107	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:12:00 - [21] - Quote In cqc the spool up time of the RR is meaningless when soooooo many squads are running around with scanners. When a RR user knows someone is about to come around the corner they prefire the gun so they are shooting the red one he shows his face, thus minimizing the effect of the spool up time. While this is not necessarily the RRs fault, the current meta gameplay which focuses heavily on scanners has allowed the long range RR to become very powerful in cqc.
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 296	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:13:00 - [22] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: In cqc the spool up time of the RR is meaningless when soooooo many squads are running around with scanners. When a RR user knows someone is about to come around the corner they prefire the gun so they are shooting the red one he shows his face, thus minimizing the effect of the spool up time. While this is not necessarily the RRs fault, the current meta gameplay which focuses heavily on scanners has allowed the long range RR to become very powerful in cqc. what your saying is inteligence is OP, well great ..... "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Horizen Kenpachi Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 132	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:15:00 - [23] - Quote Ar ads is op rail rifle jumps everywhere let me guess another lvl 5 prov 5 ar 514 qq i lol at ar proto eat the nerf bat ur time is over hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Hit me with your nerf bat.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 293	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:16:00 - [24] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: AR works better against shields. RR has spool up, which limits DPS in the first second. Neither were taken into account by the OP. Seriously? The shields/armor advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out since neither has a bigger bonus or disadvantage to their respective strong point (shield or armor) than the other. I did cover the spool up time, I said it wasn't enough to really make a difference. The massive range advantage still more than makes up for it. Yes, really. Your title says the "RR sacrifices no DBS compared to AR". When, in fact, it does when facing shields. Your calculations also neglected to take into effect spool up. I see that you wrote about the spool up issues -- all the while ignoring the real damage that doesn't take place during the spool up time -- and I would say 100+ damage is quite significant. Now, you might think, and you have argued, that "the massive range advantage still more than makes up for it" -- but that doesn't change the error in your calculations or the fact that others might draw different conclusions. All of the above said, I do think the AR needs some tweaking (perhaps an increase in DPS) so that it truly becomes the short range dominant weapon. However, I'm not sure that simply nerfing the RR is the answer, either., or even warranted given how it stacks up against the SCR, CR, and even the HMG/SMG. Respectfully...Leadfoot
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8380	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:17:00 - [25] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob So RR gets a massive optimal that's about the size of the AR's effective range, but it doesn't sacrifice any DPS compared to the AR to get that huge range advantage; gaining huge advantages without gaining disadvantages as well is the definition of imbalance, advantages and disadvantages have to be balanced with each other. Even if the AR fights an RR in the AR's own optimal range, the DPS between both rifles will just be about the same, and the AR doesn't have any decisive advantages even in its own optimal. I'm not an "AR noob", I use SCR. RR noob ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~`-»lllllll`~,...................................... .......................,-~`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll-»`-,........................... ..................,-~llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-,..................... ...............,-llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\.................. .............;`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................. ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,............... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-...........`~-~-,...(.(-»`,`,................. ................\llllllllllll,-~.....................)_-\..`;..).................... .................\,-`-»,`)............,-~`~................/..................... ..................\|/.../.../~,......-~,-~`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..~,.`~...................\................. ................\|.../.../.../.`...\...........................)....)-»`~,.................. ................\|./.../..../.......)......,.)`~-,............/....\|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,`-,.....`-,...`....,---......\..../...../..\|.........-»```~-,,,, ...............(..........)`~-,....``.,-~.,-......\|.../..../.../............\........ ................-,.......`-,...`~,..``.,,,-..........\|.,...,...\|..............\........ ...................,.........`-,...)-,..............,-`...,-....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...-,___,,-~....,-......\|...`-,..........\........ Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose OMG, I'm getting annoyed at this misinformation. The optimal starts from 0 meters and goes up to 75. At close range it is still in its optima range, and will do FULL DAMAGE. The laser rifle is the only weapon in which the optimal does not start at 0, thus does less damage at close range. The RR and every other weapon does not work like that. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt* Gû¦Gû+
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 296	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:18:00 - [26] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob So RR gets a massive optimal that's about the size of the AR's effective range, but it doesn't sacrifice any DPS compared to the AR to get that huge range advantage; gaining huge advantages without gaining disadvantages as well is the definition of imbalance, advantages and disadvantages have to be balanced with each other. Even if the AR fights an RR in the AR's own optimal range, the DPS between both rifles will just be about the same, and the AR doesn't have any decisive advantages even in its own optimal. I'm not an "AR noob", I use SCR. RR noob ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~`-»lllllll`~,...................................... .......................,-~`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll-»`-,........................... ..................,-~llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-,..................... ...............,-llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\.................. .............;`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................. ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,............... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-...........`~-~-,...(.(-»`,`,................. ................\llllllllllll,-~.....................)_-\..`;..).................... .................\,-`-»,`)............,-~`~................/..................... ..................\|/.../.../~,......-~,-~`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..~,.`~...................\................. ................\|.../.../.../.`...\...........................)....)-»`~,.................. ................\|./.../..../.......)......,.)`~-,............/....\|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,`-,.....`-,...`....,---......\..../...../..\|.........-»```~-,,,, ...............(..........)`~-,....``.,-~.,-......\|.../..../.../............\........ ................-,.......`-,...`~,..``.,,,-..........\|.,...,...\|..............\........ ...................,.........`-,...)-,..............,-`...,-....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...-,___,,-~....,-......\|...`-,..........\........ Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose OMG, I'm getting annoyed at this misinformation. The optimal starts from 0 meters and goes up to 75. At close range it is still in its optima range, and will do FULL DAMAGE. The laser rifle is the only weapon in which the optimal does not start at 0, thus does less damage at close range. The RR and every other weapon does not work like that. Last time i checked this was true to all guns "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results*." - Albert Einstein
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10346	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:19:00 - [27] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob So RR gets a massive optimal that's about the size of the AR's effective range, but it doesn't sacrifice any DPS compared to the AR to get that huge range advantage; gaining huge advantages without gaining disadvantages as well is the definition of imbalance, advantages and disadvantages have to be balanced with each other. Even if the AR fights an RR in the AR's own optimal range, the DPS between both rifles will just be about the same, and the AR doesn't have any decisive advantages even in its own optimal. I'm not an "AR noob", I use SCR. RR noob ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~`-»lllllll`~,...................................... .......................,-~`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll-»`-,........................... ..................,-~llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-,..................... ...............,-llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\.................. .............;`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................. ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,............... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-...........`~-~-,...(.(-»`,`,................. ................\llllllllllll,-~.....................)_-\..`;..).................... .................\,-`-»,`)............,-~`~................/..................... ..................\|/.../.../~,......-~,-~`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..~,.`~...................\................. ................\|.../.../.../.`...\...........................)....)-»`~,.................. ................\|./.../..../.......)......,.)`~-,............/....\|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,`-,.....`-,...`....,---......\..../...../..\|.........-»```~-,,,, ...............(..........)`~-,....``.,-~.,-......\|.../..../.../............\........ ................-,.......`-,...`~,..``.,,,-..........\|.,...,...\|..............\........ ...................,.........`-,...)-,..............,-`...,-....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...-,___,,-~....,-*......\|...`-,..........\........ Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose OMG, I'm getting annoyed at this misinformation. The optimal starts from 0 meters and goes up to 75. At close range it is still in its optima range, and will do FULL DAMAGE. The laser rifle is the only weapon in which the optimal does not start at 0, thus does less damage at close range. The RR and every other weapon does not work like that. The little picture just makes it so much better. Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
Zimander Tickle My Null-Sac 25	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:21:00 - [28] - Quote lol in deed, was not sure if that 100% right but still there r not equal compare AR Duv with Ish Assault RR not with RR and then we can talk or Tac Duv wit Kal RR EDIT: IN THIS GAME EVERYONE HAVE PROBLEM WIT EVERYTHING BE OP MAKE EVERYTHINK 1SHUT=1HP DPS AND ALL THE OP GONE STOP
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1478	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:22:00 - [29] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Yes, really. Your title says the "RR sacrifices no DPS compared to AR". When, in fact, it does when facing shields. Armor is currently tanking flavor of the month, so, about that argument... I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2075	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:22:00 - [30] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob So RR gets a massive optimal that's about the size of the AR's effective range, but it doesn't sacrifice any DPS compared to the AR to get that huge range advantage; gaining huge advantages without gaining disadvantages as well is the definition of imbalance, advantages and disadvantages have to be balanced with each other. Even if the AR fights an RR in the AR's own optimal range, the DPS between both rifles will just be about the same, and the AR doesn't have any decisive advantages even in its own optimal. I'm not an "AR noob", I use SCR. RR noob ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~`-»lllllll`~,...................................... .......................,-~`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll-»`-,........................... ..................,-~llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-,..................... ...............,-llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\.................. .............;`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................. ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,............... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-...........`~-~-,...(.(-»`,`,................. ................\llllllllllll,-~.....................)_-\..`;..).................... .................\,-`-»,`)............,-~`~................/..................... ..................\|/.../.../~,......-~,-~`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..~,.`~...................\................. ................\|.../.../.../.`...\...........................)....)-»`~,.................. ................\|./.../..../.......)......,.)`~-,............/....\|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,`-,.....`-,...`....,---......\..../...../..\|.........-»```~-,,,, ...............(..........)`~-,....``.,-~.,-......\|.../..../.../............\........ ................-,.......`-,...`~,..``.,,,-..........\|.,...,...\|..............\........ ...................,.........`-,...)-,..............,-`...,-....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...-,___,,-~....,-*......\|...`-,..........\........ Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose RR does full damage in CQC I'm sorry to inform... if you can't beat an AR user with a RR you are a scrub... Lead Shields blow ass Armor and Dam mods FTW! RR's tough get more range and work great in CQC a ROF nerf is in order. A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8382	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:22:00 - [31] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob So RR gets a massive optimal that's about the size of the AR's effective range, but it doesn't sacrifice any DPS compared to the AR to get that huge range advantage; gaining huge advantages without gaining disadvantages as well is the definition of imbalance, advantages and disadvantages have to be balanced with each other. Even if the AR fights an RR in the AR's own optimal range, the DPS between both rifles will just be about the same, and the AR doesn't have any decisive advantages even in its own optimal. I'm not an "AR noob", I use SCR. RR noob ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~`-»lllllll`~,...................................... .......................,-~`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll-»`-,........................... ..................,-~llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-,..................... ...............,-llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\.................. .............;`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................. ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,............... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-...........`~-~-,...(.(-»`,`,................. ................\llllllllllll,-~.....................)_-\..`;..).................... .................\,-`-»,`)............,-~`~................/..................... ..................\|/.../.../~,......-~,-~`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..~,.`~...................\................. ................\|.../.../.../.`...\...........................)....)-»`~,.................. ................\|./.../..../.......)......,.)`~-,............/....\|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,`-,.....`-,...`....,---......\..../...../..\|.........-»```~-,,,, ...............(..........)`~-,....``.,-~.,-......\|.../..../.../............\........ ................-,.......`-,...`~,..``.,,,-..........\|.,...,...\|..............\........ ...................,.........`-,...)-,..............,-`...,-....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...-,___,,-~....,-......\|...`-,..........\........ Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose OMG, I'm getting annoyed at this misinformation. The optimal starts from 0 meters and goes up to 75. At close range it is still in its optima range, and will do FULL DAMAGE. The laser rifle is the only weapon in which the optimal does not start at 0, thus does less damage at close range. The RR and every other weapon does not work like that. Last time i checked this was true to all guns I seriously suggest you get on Dust now, get in close range to a friendly with a sniper rifle, rail rifle, or anything besides the laser rifle, aim at him, and read the efficiency percentage. The percentage decreases when you're not in optimal range (also factor in the damage profile to shields and armor, like sniper rifle is -10% shields). Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt* Gû¦Gû+
Onesimus Tarsus 952	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:25:00 - [32] - Quote They aren't going to modify the AR or the CR... They're gonna buff the puke out of the Flaylock. One-shot kill from any distance every time. Roll those SP in there now. Free, on-demand Respecs. Because it doesn't matter and no one should care. Matchmaking by KDR proximity. :)
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 293	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:26:00 - [33] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: Yes, really. Your title says the "RR sacrifices no DPS compared to AR". When, in fact, it does when facing shields. Armor is currently tanking flavor of the month, so, about that argument... How does that change the numbers? Do you think armor will always be FoTM?
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 296	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:26:00 - [34] - Quote ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~`-»lllllll`~,...................................... .......................,-~`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll-»`-,........................... ..................,-~llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-,..................... ...............,-llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\.................. .............;`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................. ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,............... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-...........`~-~-,...(.(-»`,`,................. ................\llllllllllll,-~.....................)_-\..`;..).................... .................\,-`-»,`)............,-~`~................/..................... ..................\|/.../.../~,......-~,-~`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..~,.`~...................\................. ................\|.../.../.../.`...\...........................)....)-»`~,.................. ................\|./.../..../.......)......,.)`~-,............/....\|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,`-,.....`-,...`....,---......\..../...../..\|.........-»```~-,,,, ...............(..........)`~-,....``.,-~.,-......\|.../..../.../............\........ ................-,.......`-,...`~,..``.,,,-..........\|.,...,...\|..............\........ ...................,.........`-,...)-,..............,-`...,-....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...-,___,,-~....,-......\|...`-,..........\........ Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose[/quote] OMG, I'm getting annoyed at this misinformation. The optimal starts from 0 meters and goes up to 75. At close range it is still in its optima range, and will do FULL DAMAGE. The laser rifle is the only weapon in which the optimal does not start at 0, thus does less damage at close range. The RR and every other weapon does not work like that. [/quote] Last time i checked this was true to all guns[/quote] I seriously suggest you get on Dust now, get in close range to a friendly with a sniper rifle, rail rifle, or anything besides the laser rifle, and read the efficiency percentage. The percentage decreases when you're not in optimal range (also factor in the damage profile to shields and armor, like sniper rifle is -10% shields).[/quote] even if the close range thing isent true have you taken the fact of the spool timer?, 0.5 seconds is important in an FPS "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results*." - Albert Einstein
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2075	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:28:00 - [35] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Disturbingly Bored wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: Yes, really. Your title says the "RR sacrifices no DPS compared to AR". When, in fact, it does when facing shields. Armor is currently tanking flavor of the month, so, about that argument... How does that change the numbers? Do you think armor will always be FoTM? It's the DPS issue not Damage profiles... TTK is so short damage profiles don't matter. A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 296	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:33:00 - [36] - Quote hey crazy idea use a poll "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8385	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:34:00 - [37] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: . even if the close range thing isent true have you taken the fact of the spool timer?, 0.5 seconds is important in an FPS great the quots glitched Right now the spool up is only 0.25, not long enough to disadvantage it in close range, and a weapon with so much range AND damage per second needs to have a disadvantage at close range. I tested the RR at only standard tier, only got level 1 operation skill, and it was amazing even at close range. I even managed to kill an HMG heavy in close range in a tight corridor while using a BPO standard assault suit with it; that probably just means the heavy was bad, and I was strafing a lot, but I should have a serious disadvantage in close range while using it. Mostly I just shared the story about the heavy because its a really fond memory Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 296	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:35:00 - [38] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~`-»lllllll`~,...................................... .......................,-~`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll-»`-,........................... ..................,-~llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-,..................... ...............,-llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\.................. .............;`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................. ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,............... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-...........`~-~-,...(.(-»`,`,................. ................\llllllllllll,-~.....................)_-\..`;..).................... .................\,-`-»,`)............,-~`~................/..................... ..................\|/.../.../~,......-~,-~`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..~,.`~...................\................. ................\|.../.../.../.`...\...........................)....)-»`~,.................. ................\|./.../..../.......)......,.)`~-,............/....\|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,`-,.....`-,...`....,---......\..../...../..\|.........-»```~-,,,, ...............(..........)`~-,....``.,-~.,-......\|.../..../.../............\........ ................-,.......`-,...`~,..``.,,,-..........\|.,...,...\|..............\........ ...................,.........`-,...)-,..............,-`...,-....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...-,___,,-~....,-......\|...`-,..........\........ Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose OMG, I'm getting annoyed at this misinformation. The optimal starts from 0 meters and goes up to 75. At close range it is still in its optima range, and will do FULL DAMAGE. The laser rifle is the only weapon in which the optimal does not start at 0, thus does less damage at close range. The RR and every other weapon does not work like that. Last time i checked this was true to all guns[/quote] I seriously suggest you get on Dust now, get in close range to a friendly with a sniper rifle, rail rifle, or anything besides the laser rifle, and read the efficiency percentage. The percentage decreases when you're not in optimal range (also factor in the damage profile to shields and armor, like sniper rifle is -10% shields).[/quote] even if the close range thing isent true have you taken the fact of the spool timer?, 0.5 seconds is important in an FPS great the quots glitched[/quote] Right now the spool up is only 0.25, not long enough to disadvantage it in close range, and a weapon with so much range AND damage per second needs to have a disadvantage at close range. I tested the RR at only standard tier, only got level 1 operation skill, and it was amazing even at close range. I even managed to kill an HMG heavy in close range in a tight corridor while using a BPO standard assault suit with it; that probably just means the heavy was bad, and I was strafing a lot, but I should have a serious disadvantage in close range while using it. Mostly I just shared the story about the heavy because its a really fond memory [/quote] i thought the spool was 0.5 sec? "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results*." - Albert Einstein
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 396	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:36:00 - [39] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible Considering you did the math I guess you realize that the AR does 116 damage in the time it takes the RR to spool up? Is that not a serious advantage for the RR user? I would strongly advice against doubling the spool up time. I barely use the RR, but I feel that it would be completely gone if spool-up was increased by more than maybe 0.1 of a second. Well, it's supposed to be a meaningful drawback in CQC, and the spool up is negligible in general at long ranges since you can generally dictate when that engagement begins Outside of the AR's optimal range I'd expect the RR to have a serious advantage, but inside of it there's nothing stopping the AR user from initiating the fight at the same time as the AR user does, or is there? In that case, as Kagehoshi's numbers show, the AR wins by 116 hp, everything else being equal. Is there anything that gives the RR an advantage inside of the AR's optimal range to counter its 116 hp drawback? By the way, I choose weapons based on the map I'm seeing. On Manus Peak I will use the RR or SCR, if there's an outpost I will often choose the AR and stay inside (especially since I've found enjoyment in playing a sensor-scout). When I plan on leaving the outpost I switch weapons to something with more range. Of course I'm mostly playing casually, so my experience at the upper end of the leaderboard is limited.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8386	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:39:00 - [40] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Right now the spool up is only 0.25, not long enough to disadvantage it in close range, and a weapon with so much range AND damage per second needs to have a disadvantage at close range. I tested the RR at only standard tier, only got level 1 operation skill, and it was amazing even at close range. I even managed to kill an HMG heavy in close range in a tight corridor while using a BPO standard assault suit with it; that probably just means the heavy was bad, and I was strafing a lot, but I should have a serious disadvantage in close range while using it. Mostly I just shared the story about the heavy because its a really fond memory i thought the spool was 0.5 sec? Well its 0.25, feel free to check Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1729	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:40:00 - [41] - Quote I think the point OP is trying to make is that the optimal range of the Rail Rifle isn't working quite as intended. Assuming DPS is similar, all weapons should have a maximum and minimum range. Maximum range is dictacted by Falloff Damage and Accuracy, these are easy enough to set. Minimum range is important however because if DPS is similar between weapons, the long range weapon needs to be weak in short range, as not to make the short range weapons obsolete. However minimum range is a bit more difficult to control, so far CCP has limited the short range of weapons with a couple factors: Fire Rate: Low fire rate weapons are more difficult to use at close range because landing each shot becomes more difficult, and because each shot holds a higher % of your DPS, accuracy is crucial. This is why using Sniper Rifles at close range is difficult. Charge time: Charge time delays the time before the first shot fires which means the enemy at close range can deal additional DPS before you can retaliate. At range however, you are hopefully outside the enemy's optimal range, and as such charge is less important. Now there are a number of addition things that can help/hinder weapons in terms of range. Dispersion: Dispersion paired with a high fire rate is actually a benefit for close range weapons, and is the reason the recent HMG fix made the weapon so much more useful. Because fire rate and dispersion are high, it provides a solid area of DPS which is not useful at long range, but allows for easier kills at short range. Long Range weapons need to have low dispersion so they're accurate at range. However,low dispersion when ADS but high dispersion when hipfired for long range weapons allows them to be accurate when scoped in, but compounds the low fire rate issue if attempted to be fired from the hip. Recoil: Recoil is Dust is painfully low and players don't have to work very hard to control recoil. That aside, works in a similar way to dispersion in that it makes it difficult to consistently land shots on the same point. Generally speaking recoil should be reduced when ADS, effectively pushing the effective range out slightly. Recoil can be used however to discourage hipfire, particularly for medium range weapons. ADS Tracking: Tracking speed is particularly instrumental in long vs short range combat. At long ranges, traversal velocity of targets is fairly slow making tracking speed non-issue, as they move across the scree fairly slowly. However, at close range when traversal velocity is very high, ADS track is extremely important. Decreasing the ADS tracking speed pushed minimum range out as it becomes increasingly difficult to track close range targets. Note that hipfire tracking should never be reduced between weapons of similar frame, as it hinders general movement. ___________ In then end, the 4 rifles should have an effective range which looks like a series of rings around the user, representing a minimum and maximum range. The Plasma Rifle should little to no minimum range and a short maximum range, with Combat Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, and Rail Rifle forming additional rings further and further from the user with some overlap between each of them. 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 296	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:42:00 - [42] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Right now the spool up is only 0.25, not long enough to disadvantage it in close range, and a weapon with so much range AND damage per second needs to have a disadvantage at close range. I tested the RR at only standard tier, only got level 1 operation skill, and it was amazing even at close range. I even managed to kill an HMG heavy in close range in a tight corridor while using a BPO standard assault suit with it; that probably just means the heavy was bad, and I was strafing a lot, but I should have a serious disadvantage in close range while using it. Mostly I just shared the story about the heavy because its a really fond memory i thought the spool was 0.5 sec? Well its 0.25, feel free to check well my game is off as its late in my country but umm still thats 116Hp AR can put more into an enemy then a RR Also RR is less accurate, remember it has recoil "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1003	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:49:00 - [43] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob KAGEHOSHI has been here since the beginning of Dust and posts so often that if you search his name on the forums you max out the post list. BTW, the post list max is 50 pages. And on KAGEHOSHI's list, he posts so much that those 50 pages only go back to November 14, 2013. Now.... let's see how much YOU know about Dust... Oh my... this is DELICIOUS! First ever forum post: 2013.06.02 3,124 kills 0.61 K/D 0.99 W/L 433,517 WP KAGEHOSHI has forgotten more Dust stats than you've ever known. Watch who you call a noob, scrub. You're in WAY over your head. To apply to L.O.T.I.S. or to squad with us, join our public chat channel: L.O.T.I.S.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2076	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:50:00 - [44] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Right now the spool up is only 0.25, not long enough to disadvantage it in close range, and a weapon with so much range AND damage per second needs to have a disadvantage at close range. I tested the RR at only standard tier, only got level 1 operation skill, and it was amazing even at close range. I even managed to kill an HMG heavy in close range in a tight corridor while using a BPO standard assault suit with it; that probably just means the heavy was bad, and I was strafing a lot, but I should have a serious disadvantage in close range while using it. Mostly I just shared the story about the heavy because its a really fond memory i thought the spool was 0.5 sec? Well its 0.25, feel free to check well my game is off as its late in my country but umm still thats 116Hp AR can put more into an enemy then a RR Also RR is less accurate, remember it has recoil loldust recoil, play some BF4 and tell me that the RR has bad recoil A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8386	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:54:00 - [45] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Right now the spool up is only 0.25, not long enough to disadvantage it in close range, and a weapon with so much range AND damage per second needs to have a disadvantage at close range. I tested the RR at only standard tier, only got level 1 operation skill, and it was amazing even at close range. I even managed to kill an HMG heavy in close range in a tight corridor while using a BPO standard assault suit with it; that probably just means the heavy was bad, and I was strafing a lot, but I should have a serious disadvantage in close range while using it. Mostly I just shared the story about the heavy because its a really fond memory i thought the spool was 0.5 sec? Well its 0.25, feel free to check well my game is off as its late in my country but umm still thats 116Hp AR can put more into an enemy then a RR Also RR is less accurate, remember it has recoil When you're just a few meters from someone in close range, recoil doesn't really matter. Good point with the 116 damage, but can easily be countered by tapping R1 to stay spooled if you know where the enemy is. This is often the case because of passive scans, and the prevalence of active scanners. The spool up time is only a serious downside if you don't know the enemy is coming, or nearby, and even then I don't think its enough. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 297	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:55:00 - [46] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob KAGEHOSHI has been here since the beginning of Dust and posts so often that if you search his name on the forums you max out the post list. BTW, the post list max is 50 pages. And on KAGEHOSHI's list, he posts so much that those 50 pages only go back to November 14, 20013. Now.... let's see how much YOU know about Dust... Oh my... this is DELICIOUS! First ever forum post: 2013.06.02 3,124 kills 0.61 K/D 0.99 W/L 433,517 WP KAGEHOSHI has forgotten more Dust stats than you've ever known. Watch who you call a noob, scrub. You're in WAY over your head. and??? sooo i dont play this game competently, i started this character as a militia noobie nealry a year ago, that why my bad KD, also when has a DS pilot ever got good stats?? "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 297	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:56:00 - [47] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Right now the spool up is only 0.25, not long enough to disadvantage it in close range, and a weapon with so much range AND damage per second needs to have a disadvantage at close range. I tested the RR at only standard tier, only got level 1 operation skill, and it was amazing even at close range. I even managed to kill an HMG heavy in close range in a tight corridor while using a BPO standard assault suit with it; that probably just means the heavy was bad, and I was strafing a lot, but I should have a serious disadvantage in close range while using it. Mostly I just shared the story about the heavy because its a really fond memory i thought the spool was 0.5 sec? Well its 0.25, feel free to check well my game is off as its late in my country but umm still thats 116Hp AR can put more into an enemy then a RR Also RR is less accurate, remember it has recoil loldust recoil, play some BF4 and tell me that the RR has bad recoil yes the recoil is really low Also iv played BF4, EA ruiend it, its full of bugs. Still great game :D "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 297	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:57:00 - [48] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Right now the spool up is only 0.25, not long enough to disadvantage it in close range, and a weapon with so much range AND damage per second needs to have a disadvantage at close range. I tested the RR at only standard tier, only got level 1 operation skill, and it was amazing even at close range. I even managed to kill an HMG heavy in close range in a tight corridor while using a BPO standard assault suit with it; that probably just means the heavy was bad, and I was strafing a lot, but I should have a serious disadvantage in close range while using it. Mostly I just shared the story about the heavy because its a really fond memory i thought the spool was 0.5 sec? Well its 0.25, feel free to check well my game is off as its late in my country but umm still thats 116Hp AR can put more into an enemy then a RR Also RR is less accurate, remember it has recoil When you're just a few meters from someone in close range, recoil doesn't really matter. Good point with the 116 damage, but can easily be countered by tapping R1 to stay spooled if you know where the enemy is. This is often the case because of passive scans, and the prevalence of active scanners. The spool up time is only a serious downside if you don't know the enemy is coming, or nearby, and even then I don't think its enough. i agree the tapping the spool thing should be fixed, like i said i though the spool was half a second long. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. 2885	Posted - 2014.01.24 22:59:00 - [49] - Quote Read this: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1749301#post1749301 Check out latest BSOTT Guide
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2077	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:02:00 - [50] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: Killar-12 wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: i thought the spool was 0.5 sec? Well its 0.25, feel free to check well my game is off as its late in my country but umm still thats 116Hp AR can put more into an enemy then a RR Also RR is less accurate, remember it has recoil loldust recoil, play some BF4 and tell me that the RR has bad recoil yes the recoil is really low Also iv played BF4, EA ruiend it, its full of bugs. Still great game :D Agreed BF4 is not as good as BF3 but it's fun certainly a change from DUST. A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1730	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:05:00 - [51] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Read this: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1749301#post1749301 That is the other option. If DPS is different between each rifle, then the range issue is easier to handle. If DPS remains constant or similar, you need to resort to the mechanics I outlined above. 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 399	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:09:00 - [52] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Good point with the 116 damage, but can easily be countered by tapping R1 to stay spooled if you know where the enemy is. I never knew this was possible. This very obviously needs to be fixed. How come I never discover the "pro-tactics" by myself? Regarding scanning: Considering that right now only like 5% of all players can avoid advanced scanners you're right in assuming that any competent player can see his enemies before they come into view. Seeing the suggested stats of active scanners in 1.8 I assume however that scanning will be much less prevalent in 1.8 than it is right now. By the way: A spool-up time of 0.35 would put an RR user 163 hp behind an equally skilled AR user inside of the AR's optimum range. It would however also further put the RR behind an equally skilled SCR or CR user at even longer ranges. Perhaps the AR rather needs a 5% buff in DPS relative to the other rifles (keep in mind that TTK is going to be looked at in the future).
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 692	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:09:00 - [53] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible Considering you did the math I guess you realize that the AR does 116 damage in the time it takes the RR to spool up? Is that not a serious advantage for the RR user? I would strongly advice against doubling the spool up time. I barely use the RR, but I feel that it would be completely gone if spool-up was increased by more than maybe 0.1 of a second. Well, it's supposed to be a meaningful drawback in CQC, and the spool up is negligible in general at long ranges since you can generally dictate when that engagement begins I think the spool up is a probably the toughest thing to balance around. It has to be spot on to make it at least functional in CQC or worthless. If the RR has to have a tweak then hip fire accuracy would be the way to go i think. My most significant caution on this is how do you "balance" weapons in relation to player skill? The .25sec spool time might be barely noticeable to a skilled player but working exactly as intended for an average player. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. 2885	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:10:00 - [54] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: Read this: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1749301#post1749301 That is the other option. If DPS is different between each rifle, then the range issue is easier to handle. If DPS remains constant or similar, you need to resort to the mechanics I outlined above. It only seems logical and much easier for developers to balance, rather than making everything pretty close in DPS and adding extremities and weird nerfs that don't really nerf in weapon handling (charge time of rail rifle cough cough). They really need to go back to basics right now, it's a clusterfuck. Check out latest BSOTT Guide
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1008	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:10:00 - [55] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob KAGEHOSHI has been here since the beginning of Dust and posts so often that if you search his name on the forums you max out the post list. BTW, the post list max is 50 pages. And on KAGEHOSHI's list, he posts so much that those 50 pages only go back to November 14, 20013. Now.... let's see how much YOU know about Dust... Oh my... this is DELICIOUS! First ever forum post: 2013.06.02 3,124 kills 0.61 K/D 0.99 W/L 433,517 WP KAGEHOSHI has forgotten more Dust stats than you've ever known. Watch who you call a noob, scrub. You're in WAY over your head. and??? You come in here with your pitiful smidgen of Dust knowledge and impugn one of Dust's legends of being an AR noob. In doing so, you just showed how invalid any point you try to make may be as you know next to nothing about this game. darkiller240 wrote: also when has a DS pilot ever got good stats?? Pilots from my contacts list: Foxhound Elite: 28,646 kills 3.22 K/D 2.58 W/L steelRatt: 19,618 kills 1.82 K/D 2.23 W/L Mike Molle: 18,375 kills 2.83 K/D 2.38 W/L /conversation To apply to L.O.T.I.S. or to squad with us, join our public chat channel: L.O.T.I.S.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8338	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:15:00 - [56] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob So RR gets a massive optimal that's about the size of the AR's effective range, but it doesn't sacrifice any DPS compared to the AR to get that huge range advantage; gaining huge advantages without gaining disadvantages as well is the definition of imbalance, advantages and disadvantages have to be balanced with each other. Even if the AR fights an RR in the AR's own optimal range, the DPS between both rifles will just be about the same, and the AR doesn't have any decisive advantages even in its own optimal. I'm not an "AR noob", I use SCR. RR noob ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~`-»lllllll`~,...................................... .......................,-~`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll-»`-,........................... ..................,-~llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-,..................... ...............,-llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\.................. .............;`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................. ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,............... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-...........`~-~-,...(.(-»`,`,................. ................\llllllllllll,-~.....................)_-\..`;..).................... .................\,-`-»,`)............,-~`~................/..................... ..................\|/.../.../~,......-~,-~`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..~,.`~...................\................. ................\|.../.../.../.`...\...........................)....)-»`~,.................. ................\|./.../..../.......)......,.)`~-,............/....\|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,`-,.....`-,...`....,---......\..../...../..\|.........-»```~-,,,, ...............(..........)`~-,....``.,-~.,-......\|.../..../.../............\........ ................-,.......`-,...`~,..``.,,,-..........\|.,...,...\|..............\........ ...................,.........`-,...)-,..............,-`...,-....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...-,___,,-~....,-*......\|...`-,..........\........ Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose You're wrong. Horribly wrong. The only weapon that loses damage as you go closer in is the laser rifle. No other weapon behaves like it. Within your optimal range you will deal normal damage regardless of where in your optimal you are. The laser rifle is the only exception to this rule with its focusing behaviour. Perhaps instead of posting facepalms and generally bashing your head against your keyboard you should take a moment to ensure that you're actually correct? Level 5 Proficiency 3 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
lDocHollidayl Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 491	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:16:00 - [57] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob So RR gets a massive optimal that's about the size of the AR's effective range, but it doesn't sacrifice any DPS compared to the AR to get that huge range advantage; gaining huge advantages without gaining disadvantages as well is the definition of imbalance, advantages and disadvantages have to be balanced with each other. Even if the AR fights an RR in the AR's own optimal range, the DPS between both rifles will just be about the same, and the AR doesn't have any decisive advantages even in its own optimal. I'm not an "AR noob", I use SCR. RR noob ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~`-»lllllll`~,...................................... .......................,-~`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll-»`-,........................... ..................,-~llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-,..................... ...............,-llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\.................. .............;`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................. ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,............... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-...........`~-~-,...(.(-»`,`,................. ................\llllllllllll,-~.....................)_-\..`;..).................... .................\,-`-»,`)............,-~`~................/..................... ..................\|/.../.../~,......-~,-~`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..~,.`~...................\................. ................\|.../.../.../.`...\...........................)....)-»`~,.................. ................\|./.../..../.......)......,.)`~-,............/....\|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,`-,.....`-,...`....,---......\..../...../..\|.........-»```~-,,,, ...............(..........)`~-,....``.,-~.,-......\|.../..../.../............\........ ................-,.......`-,...`~,..``.,,,-..........\|.,...,...\|..............\........ ...................,.........`-,...)-,..............,-`...,-....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...-,___,,-~....,-*......\|...`-,..........\........ Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose Hey dummy stop posting..longer optimal does nothing to short range ...it is the same...35 dmg at 2 meters and 35 dmg at 75. go away. Only the antique laser rifle suffers from a difference in ranges. (close)
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 298	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:17:00 - [58] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: darkiller240 wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob KAGEHOSHI has been here since the beginning of Dust and posts so often that if you search his name on the forums you max out the post list. BTW, the post list max is 50 pages. And on KAGEHOSHI's list, he posts so much that those 50 pages only go back to November 14, 20013. Now.... let's see how much YOU know about Dust... Oh my... this is DELICIOUS! First ever forum post: 2013.06.02 3,124 kills 0.61 K/D 0.99 W/L 433,517 WP KAGEHOSHI has forgotten more Dust stats than you've ever known. Watch who you call a noob, scrub. You're in WAY over your head. and??? You come in here with your pitiful smidgen of Dust knowledge and impugn one of Dust's legends of being an AR noob. In doing so, you just showed how invalid any point you try to make may be as you know next to nothing about this game. darkiller240 wrote: also when has a DS pilot ever got good stats?? Pilots from my contacts list: Foxhound Elite: 28,646 kills 3.22 K/D 2.58 W/L steelRatt: 19,618 kills 1.82 K/D 2.23 W/L Mike Molle: 18,375 kills 2.83 K/D 2.38 W/L /conversation well sry for nor being part of the best .. -_- also enouh about stats i mess around alot because i can get bored of dust quikely i dont leave a match becuase of bad K/D or ovius lose also why brig them in the frist place, did your really go in game and search me up, dont you have nothing better to do, i think your hiding the fact you want an easy win. also i bearly play i wish they had played houres "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 298	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:19:00 - [59] - Quote lDocHollidayl wrote: darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob So RR gets a massive optimal that's about the size of the AR's effective range, but it doesn't sacrifice any DPS compared to the AR to get that huge range advantage; gaining huge advantages without gaining disadvantages as well is the definition of imbalance, advantages and disadvantages have to be balanced with each other. Even if the AR fights an RR in the AR's own optimal range, the DPS between both rifles will just be about the same, and the AR doesn't have any decisive advantages even in its own optimal. I'm not an "AR noob", I use SCR. RR noob ......................................__................................................ .............................,-~`-»lllllll`~,...................................... .......................,-~`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll-»`-,........................... ..................,-~llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-,..................... ...............,-llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\.................. .............;`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~~-,llllllllllllllllllll\................. ..............\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/.........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,............... ...............\lllllllllllllllllllll,-...........`~-~-,...(.(-»`,`,................. ................\llllllllllll,-~.....................)_-\..`;..).................... .................\,-`-»,`)............,-~`~................/..................... ..................\|/.../.../~,......-~,-~`;................/.\.................. ................./.../.../.../..,-,..~,.`~...................\................. ................\|.../.../.../.`...\...........................)....)-»`~,.................. ................\|./.../..../.......)......,.)`~-,............/....\|..)...`~-,............. ..............././.../...,`-,.....`-,...`....,---......\..../...../..\|.........-»```~-,,,, ...............(..........)`~-,....``.,-~.,-......\|.../..../.../............\........ ................-,.......`-,...`~,..``.,,,-..........\|.,...,...\|..............\........ ...................,.........`-,...)-,..............,-`...,-....(`-,............\....... ......................f`-,.........`-,/...-,___,,-~....,-......\|...`-,..........\........ Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose Hey dummy stop posting..longer optimal does nothing to short range ...it is the same...35 dmg at 2 meters and 35 dmg at 75. go away. Only the antique laser rifle suffers from a difference in ranges. (close) ok sry i was wronge, it happens but still its 116 dmg AR has on the RR "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results*." - Albert Einstein
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 2836	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:22:00 - [60] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype version Rages can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 Damage profile: -10% shields, +10% armor RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 Damage profile: +10% shields, -10% armor [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. The shields/armor advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out since neither has a bigger bonus or disadvantage to their respective strong point (shield or armor) than the other. there is a reason sniper rifles don't have the same DPS as ARs. Same DPS plus a lot more range = OP. While the RR isn't a sniper rifle, the same principle applies here [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. The breach AR shouldn't even exist. It was created as a placeholder for weapons that did not exist at the time, and its purpose has been outlived. It should not be balanced, it should be removed. The AR has too many variations. It's only natural they are ass.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1731	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:31:00 - [61] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: Read this: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1749301#post1749301 That is the other option. If DPS is different between each rifle, then the range issue is easier to handle. If DPS remains constant or similar, you need to resort to the mechanics I outlined above. It only seems logical and much easier for developers to balance, rather than making everything pretty close in DPS and adding extremities and weird nerfs that don't really nerf in weapon handling (charge time of rail rifle cough cough). They really need to go back to basics right now, it's a clusterfuck. Tiericide.... 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 298	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:33:00 - [62] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: Read this: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1749301#post1749301 That is the other option. If DPS is different between each rifle, then the range issue is easier to handle. If DPS remains constant or similar, you need to resort to the mechanics I outlined above. It only seems logical and much easier for developers to balance, rather than making everything pretty close in DPS and adding extremities and weird nerfs that don't really nerf in weapon handling (charge time of rail rifle cough cough). They really need to go back to basics right now, it's a clusterfuck. Tiericide.... im all up for adding recoil "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. 2887	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:33:00 - [63] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: well sry for nor being part of the best .. -_- also enouh about stats i mess around alot because i can get bored of dust quikely i dont leave a match becuase of bad K/D or ovius lose also why brig them in the frist place, did your really go in game and search me up, dont you have nothing better to do, i think your hiding the fact you want an easy win. also i bearly play i wish they had played houres You are bringing the aggression and placing titles on people. Well have a taste of your medicine. You attack people and then get all over defensive about yourself. Walk out on this thread it can only get worse for you or else you will just continue to prove everyone else right. Check out latest BSOTT Guide
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 298	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:35:00 - [64] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: darkiller240 wrote: well sry for nor being part of the best .. -_- also enouh about stats i mess around alot because i can get bored of dust quikely i dont leave a match becuase of bad K/D or ovius lose also why brig them in the frist place, did your really go in game and search me up, dont you have nothing better to do, i think your hiding the fact you want an easy win. also i bearly play i wish they had played houres You are bringing the aggression and placing titles on people. Well have a taste of your medicine. You attack people and then get all over defensive about yourself. Walk out on this thread it can only get worse for you or else you will just continue to prove everyone else right. you secretly hate me for no reason, dont you? i dident go full out on stats did i? right now i feel your hiding something Also stay on topic "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. 2887	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:38:00 - [65] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Tiericide.... You know I actually made a thread not to long ago, titled The Last Talk on Tiercide or something like that. I basically outlined a plan for CCP to keep tiers but basically make them irrelevant and that is a 2 pronged fork. Making PC viable and very open (meaning more people can play and more room to) while adding SP acceleration till a bench mark where it wears off. Basically you a rushed to proto gear and the normality should be proto gear. But afterwards SP becomes more grindy and slows down people from reaching the proficiency skills any faster. The idea is to make Proto the norm but give people a chance to use downgraded gear for whatever reason (fitting costs and maybe ISK efficiency. I am much more ISK efficient in ADV suits). And pub matches would be for the noobs while PC is where everyone else is. PC should be so much incentive that running Proto in Pubs by comparison is severely diminished in rewards. Check out latest BSOTT Guide
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 8341	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:40:00 - [66] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: darkiller240 wrote: well sry for nor being part of the best .. -_- also enouh about stats i mess around alot because i can get bored of dust quikely i dont leave a match becuase of bad K/D or ovius lose also why brig them in the frist place, did your really go in game and search me up, dont you have nothing better to do, i think your hiding the fact you want an easy win. also i bearly play i wish they had played houres You are bringing the aggression and placing titles on people. Well have a taste of your medicine. You attack people and then get all over defensive about yourself. Walk out on this thread it can only get worse for you or else you will just continue to prove everyone else right. you secretly hate me for no reason, dont you? i dident go full out on stats did i? right now i feel your hiding something Also stay on topic He doesn't dislike you for no reason. He dislikes you because you're being a douchebag. Level 5 Proficiency 3 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 298	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:41:00 - [67] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: darkiller240 wrote: well sry for nor being part of the best .. -_- also enouh about stats i mess around alot because i can get bored of dust quikely i dont leave a match becuase of bad K/D or ovius lose also why brig them in the frist place, did your really go in game and search me up, dont you have nothing better to do, i think your hiding the fact you want an easy win. also i bearly play i wish they had played houres Walk out on this thread it can only get worse wowowow your trying to scare me by insulting me out of the thread?? how old are you? Grow up and stay on topic were debating on RR against AR not stats A big problem about dust is that it favors vetrens so much, wile i might not be new but as you sied i have 'less' expereace wich is what is killing the population of dust "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. 2887	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:43:00 - [68] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: darkiller240 wrote: well sry for nor being part of the best .. -_- also enouh about stats i mess around alot because i can get bored of dust quikely i dont leave a match becuase of bad K/D or ovius lose also why brig them in the frist place, did your really go in game and search me up, dont you have nothing better to do, i think your hiding the fact you want an easy win. also i bearly play i wish they had played houres You are bringing the aggression and placing titles on people. Well have a taste of your medicine. You attack people and then get all over defensive about yourself. Walk out on this thread it can only get worse for you or else you will just continue to prove everyone else right. you secretly hate me for no reason, dont you? i dident go full out on stats did i? right now i feel your hiding something Also stay on topic LOL the cycle is complete! What did I just say? You're being over defensive and you just followed suit man. You literally just proved me right which I said would happen. I'm saying calling KAGEHOSHI an AR Noob or whatever is one of the most ironic things. Also look at you go! You say "right now I feel your hiding something" and it totally just goes to show your aggression. I'm saying chill, make amends, and stop self inflicting wounds. I have no hate for you, merely defending others, Baal and KAGEHOSHI even though they really don't need it, you can't smack talk your elders little boy! They're opinions have way more validation then yours and it's not through stats it's through experience. Check out latest BSOTT Guide
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 298	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:43:00 - [69] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Tiericide.... You know I actually made a thread not to long ago, titled The Last Talk on Tiercide or something like that. I basically outlined a plan for CCP to keep tiers but basically make them irrelevant and that is a 2 pronged fork. Making PC viable and very open (meaning more people can play and more room to) while adding SP acceleration till a bench mark where it wears off. Basically you a rushed to proto gear and the normality should be proto gear. But afterwards SP becomes more grindy and slows down people from reaching the proficiency skills any faster. The idea is to make Proto the norm but give people a chance to use downgraded gear for whatever reason (fitting costs and maybe ISK efficiency. I am much more ISK efficient in ADV suits). And pub matches would be for the noobs while PC is where everyone else is. PC should be so much incentive that running Proto in Pubs by comparison is severely diminished in rewards. soo taking away proto pub stomping, i like it "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 298	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:44:00 - [70] - Quote i feel this topic is getting weird "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

stlcarlos989 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1036	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:45:00 - [71] - Quote The spool up time is a joke if you just repeatedly tap R1 and as soon as you hold down R1 it will fire instantly giving it no spool up[ time whatsoever. STB Director, #1 in Warpoints E3 Closed Beta Build, Water Pipe Aficionado
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 298	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:48:00 - [72] - Quote stlcarlos989 wrote: The spool up time is a joke if you just repeatedly tap R1 and as soon as you hold down R1 it will fire instantly giving it no spool up[ time whatsoever. yes weve clarified thats a problem before people started insulting each other on game skill "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 2805	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:53:00 - [73] - Quote You put one bad idea into the forums and watch the natives go nuts repeating that bad idea. This is typical in this forum. The tank thread brought about the idea of removing the redline....which is very bad idea by short sighted folks. Let's not forget the AR, that needed a nerf but folks wanted to exclude the fact that there were a less amount of racial weapon variants available at the time, so of course majority of folks had ARs and of course it seemed too lethal when folks been popping its triggers for months on end. Now its the RR. In which the pattern continues yet again. Over abundance is what drives this. An over abundance of death. An over abundance of its usage. Those two things push the idea that the RR must be nerfed somehow. Also, people flocking to RR is nothing more than the option in COD that allows you to gain the same weapons as you recent killer. So folks get killed by RR, they run and get the RR. Which furthers pushes the idea to many who fall to it that somehow it needs to be nerfed since, more deaths has come from the RR and more people are learning how to use the rifle. The question is, if it were the CR, would it happen the same way? More than likely, yes. The problem here is that the community, as stated many times before, don't think objectively when viewing the unique problems. They would have the charge time increased and if so, causes those FOTM users to switch over since its been changed. Then they would probably try the CR and then the CR will become famous. Then the community will cry for the nerf hammers for that as well, without thinking that, hey, plenty deaths and usage doesn't equate to it being nerfed. The same thing happened with tanks. Tanks on the first day of the changes, were flooding the field. Instead of folks thinking that it will all pass because its the new toys, they cry "Tank 514!!!" from the top of their lungs because of the over abundance of usage and deaths. Tanks are nowhere near the same problem that it once was when the changes came. No one is talking about that though. This is the never ending facepalming formula that I have experienced on these forums time and time again. It never stops and they never learn. The community, better yet the majority of the community, is hell bent on nerfing anything that kills them too much or is used too much. So essentially, they are wanting to nerf the users of those items. But you can't do that, so you just nerf the weapons that they use in attempt to find something that would give them even ground. Nevermind that skill has nothing to do with this. He killed me with that too many times, that's gotta be nerfed. This is happened in COD, where dual wielding SMGs were strong and killed many. Same thing with Halo with the battle rifle. I enjoy coming to the forums, but it boogles me sometimes how people view this game and view what needs to be nerfed or not. If the opinions were objective, then I wouldn't have much to say. But they aren't. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. For the State!! [email protected]
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 589	Posted - 2014.01.24 23:58:00 - [74] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: You put one bad idea into the forums and watch the natives go nuts repeating that bad idea. This is typical in this forum. The tank thread brought about the idea of removing the redline....which is very bad idea by short sighted folks. Let's not forget the AR, that needed a nerf but folks wanted to exclude the fact that there were a less amount of racial weapon variants available at the time, so of course majority of folks had ARs and of course it seemed too lethal when folks been popping its triggers for months on end. Now its the RR. In which the pattern continues yet again. Over abundance is what drives this. An over abundance of death. An over abundance of its usage. Those two things push the idea that the RR must be nerfed somehow. Also, people flocking to RR is nothing more than the option in COD that allows you to gain the same weapons as you recent killer. So folks get killed by RR, they run and get the RR. Which furthers pushes the idea to many who fall to it that somehow it needs to be nerfed since, more deaths has come from the RR and more people are learning how to use the rifle. The question is, if it were the CR, would it happen the same way? More than likely, yes. The problem here is that the community, as stated many times before, don't think objectively when viewing the unique problems. They would have the charge time increased and if so, causes those FOTM users to switch over since its been changed. Then they would probably try the CR and then the CR will become famous. Then the community will cry for the nerf hammers for that as well, without thinking that, hey, plenty deaths and usage doesn't equate to it being nerfed. The same thing happened with tanks. Tanks on the first day of the changes, were flooding the field. Instead of folks thinking that it will all pass because its the new toys, they cry "Tank 514!!!" from the top of their lungs because of the over abundance of usage and deaths. Tanks are nowhere near the same problem that it once was when the changes came. No one is talking about that though. This is the never ending facepalming formula that I have experienced on these forums time and time again. It never stops and they never learn. The community, better yet the majority of the community, is hell bent on nerfing anything that kills them too much or is used too much. So essentially, they are wanting to nerf the users of those items. But you can't do that, so you just nerf the weapons that they use in attempt to find something that would give them even ground. Nevermind that skill has nothing to do with this. He killed me with that too many times, that's gotta be nerfed. This is happened in COD, where dual wielding SMGs were strong and killed many. Same thing with Halo with the battle rifle. I enjoy coming to the forums, but it boogles me sometimes how people view this game and view what needs to be nerfed or not. If the opinions were objective, then I wouldn't have much to say. But they aren't. Over abundance of usage of something generally also gives a hint that it is overpowered in some way. Spamming 6 tanks in ambush is pretty common.. Wonder why? Because its over powered. Same thing with the new rifles. They have too similar dps as the cqc rifle.. Yet their range extends so much farther. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 298	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:00:00 - [75] - Quote well im off i dont know why i argued for the RR i dont use it so if it does get nerfed i dont care :P if you want me il be above your head shooting 900 hp missiles right under your feet "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1009	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:01:00 - [76] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: well sry for nor being part of the best .. -_- also enouh about stats i mess around alot because i can get bored of dust quikely i dont leave a match becuase of bad K/D or ovius lose also why brig them in the frist place, did your really go in game and search me up, dont you have nothing better to do, i think your hiding the fact you want an easy win. also i bearly play i wish they had played houres You wanted to know since when DS pilots had good stats. I showed you that they do currently and have for a while. You wanted to share your side in a conversation where you were obviously wrong to anyone who actually knows what they are talking about, I showed your stats to show how little Dust experience you have compared to KAGEHOSHI. I am not personally promoting any weapon or any weapon changes, and you keep coming up with false stats and explaining them away when your called out on them by saying you are not familiar with the game. Don't label people noobs when you A) have no idea if you are newer or not, and B) have no idea what you are talking about when you discuss game changes that others obviously already understand far better than you. It makes you look bad. And who brought up leaving matches? What does that have to do with anything? Are you trying to link that to K/D? 'Cause in case you didn't know, you can't pad your stats by leaving a match. Deaths are permanently on your record whether or not you leave the match. To apply to L.O.T.I.S. or to squad with us, join our public chat channel: L.O.T.I.S.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8399	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:02:00 - [77] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: You put one bad idea into the forums and watch the natives go nuts repeating that bad idea. This is typical in this forum. The tank thread brought about the idea of removing the redline....which is very bad idea by short sighted folks. Let's not forget the AR, that needed a nerf but folks wanted to exclude the fact that there were a less amount of racial weapon variants available at the time, so of course majority of folks had ARs and of course it seemed too lethal when folks been popping its triggers for months on end. Now its the RR. In which the pattern continues yet again. Over abundance is what drives this. An over abundance of death. An over abundance of its usage. Those two things push the idea that the RR must be nerfed somehow. Also, people flocking to RR is nothing more than the option in COD that allows you to gain the same weapons as you recent killer. So folks get killed by RR, they run and get the RR. Which furthers pushes the idea to many who fall to it that somehow it needs to be nerfed since, more deaths has come from the RR and more people are learning how to use the rifle. The question is, if it were the CR, would it happen the same way? More than likely, yes. The problem here is that the community, as stated many times before, don't think objectively when viewing the unique problems. They would have the charge time increased and if so, causes those FOTM users to switch over since its been changed. Then they would probably try the CR and then the CR will become famous. Then the community will cry for the nerf hammers for that as well, without thinking that, hey, plenty deaths and usage doesn't equate to it being nerfed. The same thing happened with tanks. Tanks on the first day of the changes, were flooding the field. Instead of folks thinking that it will all pass because its the new toys, they cry "Tank 514!!!" from the top of their lungs because of the over abundance of usage and deaths. Tanks are nowhere near the same problem that it once was when the changes came. No one is talking about that though. This is the never ending facepalming formula that I have experienced on these forums time and time again. It never stops and they never learn. The community, better yet the majority of the community, is hell bent on nerfing anything that kills them too much or is used too much. So essentially, they are wanting to nerf the users of those items. But you can't do that, so you just nerf the weapons that they use in attempt to find something that would give them even ground. Nevermind that skill has nothing to do with this. He killed me with that too many times, that's gotta be nerfed. This is happened in COD, where dual wielding SMGs were strong and killed many. Same thing with Halo with the battle rifle. I enjoy coming to the forums, but it boogles me sometimes how people view this game and view what needs to be nerfed or not. If the opinions were objective, then I wouldn't have much to say. But they aren't. You complain about the irrational need to nerf whatever is getting the kills, yet you are being irrational by dismissing the numbers and my analysis based on your own feelings. My argument wasn't "there are too many RRs killing me!", my argument was "if it has more range, it should have less DPS and less close range effectiveness to compensate". You are the one not being objective here. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 3139	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:04:00 - [78] - Quote Doesn't RR have Dmg bonus to armour and the AR has a Dmg bonus to shields? Otherwise good writeup :) Commando 6 // A.R.C Commander // D-Uni instructor A Balac's and a Thale's.....What's on your commando? Forum warrior 3
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8399	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:06:00 - [79] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: Doesn't RR have Dmg bonus to armour and the AR has a Dmg bonus to shields? Otherwise good writeup :) Thanks I covered the shield/armor damage bonuses in the OP though. People kept bringing it up, so I added it through an edit a while ago. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: AR Damage profile: -10% shields, +10% armor RR Damage profile: +10% shields, -10% armor The shields/armor advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out since neither has a bigger bonus or disadvantage to their respective strong point (shield or armor) than the other. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 995	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:07:00 - [80] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: In cqc the spool up time of the RR is meaningless when soooooo many squads are running around with scanners. When a RR user knows someone is about to come around the corner they prefire the gun so they are shooting the red one he shows his face, thus minimizing the effect of the spool up time. While this is not necessarily the RRs fault, the current meta gameplay which focuses heavily on scanners has allowed the long range RR to become very powerful in cqc. what your saying is inteligence is OP, well great ..... Noo-ou, he's saying that spool up time is not a hindrance if you have scan running at the same time. FEEDBACK: Analysis on 1.7 tank functionality

Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 2805	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:15:00 - [81] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Michael Arck wrote: You put one bad idea into the forums and watch the natives go nuts repeating that bad idea. This is typical in this forum. The tank thread brought about the idea of removing the redline....which is very bad idea by short sighted folks. Let's not forget the AR, that needed a nerf but folks wanted to exclude the fact that there were a less amount of racial weapon variants available at the time, so of course majority of folks had ARs and of course it seemed too lethal when folks been popping its triggers for months on end. Now its the RR. In which the pattern continues yet again. Over abundance is what drives this. An over abundance of death. An over abundance of its usage. Those two things push the idea that the RR must be nerfed somehow. Also, people flocking to RR is nothing more than the option in COD that allows you to gain the same weapons as you recent killer. So folks get killed by RR, they run and get the RR. Which furthers pushes the idea to many who fall to it that somehow it needs to be nerfed since, more deaths has come from the RR and more people are learning how to use the rifle. The question is, if it were the CR, would it happen the same way? More than likely, yes. The problem here is that the community, as stated many times before, don't think objectively when viewing the unique problems. They would have the charge time increased and if so, causes those FOTM users to switch over since its been changed. Then they would probably try the CR and then the CR will become famous. Then the community will cry for the nerf hammers for that as well, without thinking that, hey, plenty deaths and usage doesn't equate to it being nerfed. The same thing happened with tanks. Tanks on the first day of the changes, were flooding the field. Instead of folks thinking that it will all pass because its the new toys, they cry "Tank 514!!!" from the top of their lungs because of the over abundance of usage and deaths. Tanks are nowhere near the same problem that it once was when the changes came. No one is talking about that though. This is the never ending facepalming formula that I have experienced on these forums time and time again. It never stops and they never learn. The community, better yet the majority of the community, is hell bent on nerfing anything that kills them too much or is used too much. So essentially, they are wanting to nerf the users of those items. But you can't do that, so you just nerf the weapons that they use in attempt to find something that would give them even ground. Nevermind that skill has nothing to do with this. He killed me with that too many times, that's gotta be nerfed. This is happened in COD, where dual wielding SMGs were strong and killed many. Same thing with Halo with the battle rifle. I enjoy coming to the forums, but it boogles me sometimes how people view this game and view what needs to be nerfed or not. If the opinions were objective, then I wouldn't have much to say. But they aren't. You complain about the irrational need to nerf whatever is getting the kills, yet you are being irrational by dismissing the numbers and my analysis based on your own feelings. My argument wasn't "there are too many RRs killing me!", my argument was "if it has more range, it should have less DPS and less close range effectiveness to compensate". You are the one not being objective here. It's obvious my post is saying that I'm tired of hearing these RR nerf necessity threads. I understand what you're saying, I'm not a brain dead mercenary here. Your bandwagon thread lead me to create that long post. Second, the RR is just fine the way it is. Just what is supposed to do in close range? Spray confetti at you with clown horns to boot? DPS? It's a freakin rail rifle with rail technology!! Of course the DPS is going to be pretty big!!! Smh Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. For the State!! [email protected]
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 646	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:23:00 - [82] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Michael Arck wrote: You put one bad idea into the forums and watch the natives go nuts repeating that bad idea. This is typical in this forum. The tank thread brought about the idea of removing the redline....which is very bad idea by short sighted folks. Let's not forget the AR, that needed a nerf but folks wanted to exclude the fact that there were a less amount of racial weapon variants available at the time, so of course majority of folks had ARs and of course it seemed too lethal when folks been popping its triggers for months on end. Now its the RR. In which the pattern continues yet again. Over abundance is what drives this. An over abundance of death. An over abundance of its usage. Those two things push the idea that the RR must be nerfed somehow. Also, people flocking to RR is nothing more than the option in COD that allows you to gain the same weapons as you recent killer. So folks get killed by RR, they run and get the RR. Which furthers pushes the idea to many who fall to it that somehow it needs to be nerfed since, more deaths has come from the RR and more people are learning how to use the rifle. The question is, if it were the CR, would it happen the same way? More than likely, yes. The problem here is that the community, as stated many times before, don't think objectively when viewing the unique problems. They would have the charge time increased and if so, causes those FOTM users to switch over since its been changed. Then they would probably try the CR and then the CR will become famous. Then the community will cry for the nerf hammers for that as well, without thinking that, hey, plenty deaths and usage doesn't equate to it being nerfed. The same thing happened with tanks. Tanks on the first day of the changes, were flooding the field. Instead of folks thinking that it will all pass because its the new toys, they cry "Tank 514!!!" from the top of their lungs because of the over abundance of usage and deaths. Tanks are nowhere near the same problem that it once was when the changes came. No one is talking about that though. This is the never ending facepalming formula that I have experienced on these forums time and time again. It never stops and they never learn. The community, better yet the majority of the community, is hell bent on nerfing anything that kills them too much or is used too much. So essentially, they are wanting to nerf the users of those items. But you can't do that, so you just nerf the weapons that they use in attempt to find something that would give them even ground. Nevermind that skill has nothing to do with this. He killed me with that too many times, that's gotta be nerfed. This is happened in COD, where dual wielding SMGs were strong and killed many. Same thing with Halo with the battle rifle. I enjoy coming to the forums, but it boogles me sometimes how people view this game and view what needs to be nerfed or not. If the opinions were objective, then I wouldn't have much to say. But they aren't. You complain about the irrational need to nerf whatever is getting the kills, yet you are being irrational by dismissing the numbers and my analysis based on your own feelings. My argument wasn't "there are too many RRs killing me!", my argument was "if it has more range, it should have less DPS and less close range effectiveness to compensate". You are the one not being objective here. It's obvious my post is saying that I'm tired of hearing these RR nerf necessity threads. I understand what you're saying, I'm not a brain dead mercenary here. Your bandwagon thread lead me to create that long post. Second, the RR is just fine the way it is. Just what is supposed to do in close range? Spray confetti at you with clown horns to boot? DPS? It's a freakin rail rifle with rail technology!! Of course the DPS is going to be pretty big!!! Smh And just what are Lasers and MD users suppose to do when they're being beaten in all ranges by the RR?
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 995	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:25:00 - [83] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose This guy HAS to be a troll... FEEDBACK: Analysis on 1.7 tank functionality
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8401	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:28:00 - [84] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Michael Arck wrote: You put one bad idea into the forums and watch the natives go nuts repeating that bad idea. This is typical in this forum. The tank thread brought about the idea of removing the redline....which is very bad idea by short sighted folks. Let's not forget the AR, that needed a nerf but folks wanted to exclude the fact that there were a less amount of racial weapon variants available at the time, so of course majority of folks had ARs and of course it seemed too lethal when folks been popping its triggers for months on end. Now its the RR. In which the pattern continues yet again. Over abundance is what drives this. An over abundance of death. An over abundance of its usage. Those two things push the idea that the RR must be nerfed somehow. Also, people flocking to RR is nothing more than the option in COD that allows you to gain the same weapons as you recent killer. So folks get killed by RR, they run and get the RR. Which furthers pushes the idea to many who fall to it that somehow it needs to be nerfed since, more deaths has come from the RR and more people are learning how to use the rifle. The question is, if it were the CR, would it happen the same way? More than likely, yes. The problem here is that the community, as stated many times before, don't think objectively when viewing the unique problems. They would have the charge time increased and if so, causes those FOTM users to switch over since its been changed. Then they would probably try the CR and then the CR will become famous. Then the community will cry for the nerf hammers for that as well, without thinking that, hey, plenty deaths and usage doesn't equate to it being nerfed. The same thing happened with tanks. Tanks on the first day of the changes, were flooding the field. Instead of folks thinking that it will all pass because its the new toys, they cry "Tank 514!!!" from the top of their lungs because of the over abundance of usage and deaths. Tanks are nowhere near the same problem that it once was when the changes came. No one is talking about that though. This is the never ending facepalming formula that I have experienced on these forums time and time again. It never stops and they never learn. The community, better yet the majority of the community, is hell bent on nerfing anything that kills them too much or is used too much. So essentially, they are wanting to nerf the users of those items. But you can't do that, so you just nerf the weapons that they use in attempt to find something that would give them even ground. Nevermind that skill has nothing to do with this. He killed me with that too many times, that's gotta be nerfed. This is happened in COD, where dual wielding SMGs were strong and killed many. Same thing with Halo with the battle rifle. I enjoy coming to the forums, but it boogles me sometimes how people view this game and view what needs to be nerfed or not. If the opinions were objective, then I wouldn't have much to say. But they aren't. You complain about the irrational need to nerf whatever is getting the kills, yet you are being irrational by dismissing the numbers and my analysis based on your own feelings. My argument wasn't "there are too many RRs killing me!", my argument was "if it has more range, it should have less DPS and less close range effectiveness to compensate". You are the one not being objective here. It's obvious my post is saying that I'm tired of hearing these RR nerf necessity threads. I understand what you're saying, I'm not a brain dead mercenary here. Your bandwagon thread lead me to create that long post. Second, the RR is just fine the way it is. Just what is supposed to do in close range? Spray confetti at you with clown horns to boot? DPS? It's a freakin rail rifle with rail technology!! Of course the DPS is going to be pretty big!!! Smh You are being unreasonable, and placing your understanding of lore before balance. You are also wrong about the lore, yes rail tech is supposed to be high damage and high range, but lore does not necessitate that it comes with a high enough rate of fire to match the DPS of close range weapons. Sniper rifle for example is rail tech; has high damage, high range, but its ROF leads it to have low DPS. Consider these options (X remains constant): A) X number DPS B) X number DPS, +30% more range. No one in their right mind would pick option A. Right now the AR is option A, and the RR is option B. Ideally no weapon should be clearly better than another, each should have their own strengths and weaknesses, regardless of lore. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 2805	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:33:00 - [85] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Michael Arck wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Michael Arck wrote: You put one bad idea into the forums and watch the natives go nuts repeating that bad idea. This is typical in this forum. The tank thread brought about the idea of removing the redline....which is very bad idea by short sighted folks. Let's not forget the AR, that needed a nerf but folks wanted to exclude the fact that there were a less amount of racial weapon variants available at the time, so of course majority of folks had ARs and of course it seemed too lethal when folks been popping its triggers for months on end. Now its the RR. In which the pattern continues yet again. Over abundance is what drives this. An over abundance of death. An over abundance of its usage. Those two things push the idea that the RR must be nerfed somehow. Also, people flocking to RR is nothing more than the option in COD that allows you to gain the same weapons as you recent killer. So folks get killed by RR, they run and get the RR. Which furthers pushes the idea to many who fall to it that somehow it needs to be nerfed since, more deaths has come from the RR and more people are learning how to use the rifle. The question is, if it were the CR, would it happen the same way? More than likely, yes. The problem here is that the community, as stated many times before, don't think objectively when viewing the unique problems. They would have the charge time increased and if so, causes those FOTM users to switch over since its been changed. Then they would probably try the CR and then the CR will become famous. Then the community will cry for the nerf hammers for that as well, without thinking that, hey, plenty deaths and usage doesn't equate to it being nerfed. The same thing happened with tanks. Tanks on the first day of the changes, were flooding the field. Instead of folks thinking that it will all pass because its the new toys, they cry "Tank 514!!!" from the top of their lungs because of the over abundance of usage and deaths. Tanks are nowhere near the same problem that it once was when the changes came. No one is talking about that though. This is the never ending facepalming formula that I have experienced on these forums time and time again. It never stops and they never learn. The community, better yet the majority of the community, is hell bent on nerfing anything that kills them too much or is used too much. So essentially, they are wanting to nerf the users of those items. But you can't do that, so you just nerf the weapons that they use in attempt to find something that would give them even ground. Nevermind that skill has nothing to do with this. He killed me with that too many times, that's gotta be nerfed. This is happened in COD, where dual wielding SMGs were strong and killed many. Same thing with Halo with the battle rifle. I enjoy coming to the forums, but it boogles me sometimes how people view this game and view what needs to be nerfed or not. If the opinions were objective, then I wouldn't have much to say. But they aren't. You complain about the irrational need to nerf whatever is getting the kills, yet you are being irrational by dismissing the numbers and my analysis based on your own feelings. My argument wasn't "there are too many RRs killing me!", my argument was "if it has more range, it should have less DPS and less close range effectiveness to compensate". You are the one not being objective here. It's obvious my post is saying that I'm tired of hearing these RR nerf necessity threads. I understand what you're saying, I'm not a brain dead mercenary here. Your bandwagon thread lead me to create that long post. Second, the RR is just fine the way it is. Just what is supposed to do in close range? Spray confetti at you with clown horns to boot? DPS? It's a freakin rail rifle with rail technology!! Of course the DPS is going to be pretty big!!! Smh And just what are Lasers and MD users suppose to do when they're being beaten in all ranges by the RR? And just what am I supposed to do when a MD and Laser got sights on me? Please man. I was here on manus peak getting my dropsuit burned to a crisp when I first started. I didn't call for lasers getting nerfed. When MDs were tearing up the place, I didn't complain then. So I suggest you do what I did, fight your hardest to not get in the sights and fight those users. It's called taking a punch and throwing back one. If your brain keeps thinking about the punch to your jaw, you will amplify the damage that isn't as bad as your brain inclines it to be. Which also takes away from your power when you punch back. Grow a pair Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. For the State!! [email protected]
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 2805	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:34:00 - [86] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Michael Arck wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Michael Arck wrote: You put one bad idea into the forums and watch the natives go nuts repeating that bad idea. This is typical in this forum. The tank thread brought about the idea of removing the redline....which is very bad idea by short sighted folks. Let's not forget the AR, that needed a nerf but folks wanted to exclude the fact that there were a less amount of racial weapon variants available at the time, so of course majority of folks had ARs and of course it seemed too lethal when folks been popping its triggers for months on end. Now its the RR. In which the pattern continues yet again. Over abundance is what drives this. An over abundance of death. An over abundance of its usage. Those two things push the idea that the RR must be nerfed somehow. Also, people flocking to RR is nothing more than the option in COD that allows you to gain the same weapons as you recent killer. So folks get killed by RR, they run and get the RR. Which furthers pushes the idea to many who fall to it that somehow it needs to be nerfed since, more deaths has come from the RR and more people are learning how to use the rifle. The question is, if it were the CR, would it happen the same way? More than likely, yes. The problem here is that the community, as stated many times before, don't think objectively when viewing the unique problems. They would have the charge time increased and if so, causes those FOTM users to switch over since its been changed. Then they would probably try the CR and then the CR will become famous. Then the community will cry for the nerf hammers for that as well, without thinking that, hey, plenty deaths and usage doesn't equate to it being nerfed. The same thing happened with tanks. Tanks on the first day of the changes, were flooding the field. Instead of folks thinking that it will all pass because its the new toys, they cry "Tank 514!!!" from the top of their lungs because of the over abundance of usage and deaths. Tanks are nowhere near the same problem that it once was when the changes came. No one is talking about that though. This is the never ending facepalming formula that I have experienced on these forums time and time again. It never stops and they never learn. The community, better yet the majority of the community, is hell bent on nerfing anything that kills them too much or is used too much. So essentially, they are wanting to nerf the users of those items. But you can't do that, so you just nerf the weapons that they use in attempt to find something that would give them even ground. Nevermind that skill has nothing to do with this. He killed me with that too many times, that's gotta be nerfed. This is happened in COD, where dual wielding SMGs were strong and killed many. Same thing with Halo with the battle rifle. I enjoy coming to the forums, but it boogles me sometimes how people view this game and view what needs to be nerfed or not. If the opinions were objective, then I wouldn't have much to say. But they aren't. You complain about the irrational need to nerf whatever is getting the kills, yet you are being irrational by dismissing the numbers and my analysis based on your own feelings. My argument wasn't "there are too many RRs killing me!", my argument was "if it has more range, it should have less DPS and less close range effectiveness to compensate". You are the one not being objective here. It's obvious my post is saying that I'm tired of hearing these RR nerf necessity threads. I understand what you're saying, I'm not a brain dead mercenary here. Your bandwagon thread lead me to create that long post. Second, the RR is just fine the way it is. Just what is supposed to do in close range? Spray confetti at you with clown horns to boot? DPS? It's a freakin rail rifle with rail technology!! Of course the DPS is going to be pretty big!!! Smh You are being unreasonable, and placing your understanding of lore before balance. You are also wrong about the lore, yes rail tech is supposed to be high damage and high range, but lore does not necessitate that it comes with a high enough rate of fire to match the DPS of close range weapons. Sniper rifle for example is rail tech; has high damage, high range, but its ROF leads it to have low DPS. Consider these options (X remains constant): A) X number DPS B) X number DPS, +30% more range. No one in their right mind would pick option A. Right now the AR is option A, and the RR is option B. Ideally no weapon should be clearly better than another, each should have their own strengths and weaknesses, regardless of lore. LOL but in another thread, you would state that the weapon must be bound to the lore!!!! C'mon man, are you for real? It sounds like alot of you guys need to toughen up a bit Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. For the State!! [email protected]
RedZer0 MK1 The Generals General Tso's Alliance 165	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:39:00 - [87] - Quote How is this even up for debate, do the math. RR wins. The shield/armor bonus, goes to RR. Why you may ask, shield doesn't have the raw HP compared to armor. So, after that shield is gone, which will be fast, the AR is at -10% efficiency whith more HP to chew through. Despite what people keep saying, tight hip fire is great for CQC. Headshot, headshot, headshot. So, it has absurdly close dps to the AR, range and accurate from the hip. The only way to make it any better would be if healed team mates shields.
axis alpha Red Star. EoN. 177	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:39:00 - [88] - Quote I have no got damn reason why you people are complaining about to AR... Just because there's a weapon that can out range the AR? I swear... I can out gun a rr user on my altar with gek from the AR option range.... You know how? BY STRAFING The best part of waking up, is whiskey in my cuuuuup!
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8405	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:40:00 - [89] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Michael Arck wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Michael Arck wrote: You put one bad idea into the forums and watch the natives go nuts repeating that bad idea. This is typical in this forum. The tank thread brought about the idea of removing the redline....which is very bad idea by short sighted folks. Let's not forget the AR, that needed a nerf but folks wanted to exclude the fact that there were a less amount of racial weapon variants available at the time, so of course majority of folks had ARs and of course it seemed too lethal when folks been popping its triggers for months on end. Now its the RR. In which the pattern continues yet again. Over abundance is what drives this. An over abundance of death. An over abundance of its usage. Those two things push the idea that the RR must be nerfed somehow. Also, people flocking to RR is nothing more than the option in COD that allows you to gain the same weapons as you recent killer. So folks get killed by RR, they run and get the RR. Which furthers pushes the idea to many who fall to it that somehow it needs to be nerfed since, more deaths has come from the RR and more people are learning how to use the rifle. The question is, if it were the CR, would it happen the same way? More than likely, yes. The problem here is that the community, as stated many times before, don't think objectively when viewing the unique problems. They would have the charge time increased and if so, causes those FOTM users to switch over since its been changed. Then they would probably try the CR and then the CR will become famous. Then the community will cry for the nerf hammers for that as well, without thinking that, hey, plenty deaths and usage doesn't equate to it being nerfed. The same thing happened with tanks. Tanks on the first day of the changes, were flooding the field. Instead of folks thinking that it will all pass because its the new toys, they cry "Tank 514!!!" from the top of their lungs because of the over abundance of usage and deaths. Tanks are nowhere near the same problem that it once was when the changes came. No one is talking about that though. This is the never ending facepalming formula that I have experienced on these forums time and time again. It never stops and they never learn. The community, better yet the majority of the community, is hell bent on nerfing anything that kills them too much or is used too much. So essentially, they are wanting to nerf the users of those items. But you can't do that, so you just nerf the weapons that they use in attempt to find something that would give them even ground. Nevermind that skill has nothing to do with this. He killed me with that too many times, that's gotta be nerfed. This is happened in COD, where dual wielding SMGs were strong and killed many. Same thing with Halo with the battle rifle. I enjoy coming to the forums, but it boogles me sometimes how people view this game and view what needs to be nerfed or not. If the opinions were objective, then I wouldn't have much to say. But they aren't. You complain about the irrational need to nerf whatever is getting the kills, yet you are being irrational by dismissing the numbers and my analysis based on your own feelings. My argument wasn't "there are too many RRs killing me!", my argument was "if it has more range, it should have less DPS and less close range effectiveness to compensate". You are the one not being objective here. It's obvious my post is saying that I'm tired of hearing these RR nerf necessity threads. I understand what you're saying, I'm not a brain dead mercenary here. Your bandwagon thread lead me to create that long post. Second, the RR is just fine the way it is. Just what is supposed to do in close range? Spray confetti at you with clown horns to boot? DPS? It's a freakin rail rifle with rail technology!! Of course the DPS is going to be pretty big!!! Smh You are being unreasonable, and placing your understanding of lore before balance. You are also wrong about the lore, yes rail tech is supposed to be high damage and high range, but lore does not necessitate that it comes with a high enough rate of fire to match the DPS of close range weapons. Sniper rifle for example is rail tech; has high damage, high range, but its ROF leads it to have low DPS. Consider these options (X remains constant): A) X number DPS B) X number DPS, +30% more range. No one in their right mind would pick option A. Right now the AR is option A, and the RR is option B. Ideally no weapon should be clearly better than another, each should have their own strengths and weaknesses, regardless of lore. LOL but in another thread, you would state that the weapon must be bound to the lore!!!! C'mon man, are you for real? It sounds like alot of you guys need to toughen up a bit I love lore, and I'm all for lore, as long as it doesn't hurt gameplay. Like I already explained, lore does not necessitate high DPS, only high damage and high range; the DPS is dependent on both ROF and range, and nothing in the lore necessitate that rail tech ROF be high enough to lead to DPS as good as close range weapons. Even if lore was somehow more important, you're still wrong about it necessitating high DPS. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
The-Errorist 493	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:42:00 - [90] - Quote Also rail rifle has a sight, but thats beside the point. RR is too good at all ranges and sacrifices barely anything to attain huge bonuses.

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8405	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:42:00 - [91] - Quote axis alpha wrote: I have no got damn reason why you people are complaining about to AR... Just because there's a weapon that can out range the AR? I swear... I can out gun a rr user on my altar with gek from the AR option range.... You know how? BY STRAFING I'm fine with weapons having more range than another of the same class, as long as that advantage is balanced by another disadvantage. The fact that you can win by strafing is irrelevant because RR users can also strafe. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 2805	Posted - 2014.01.25 00:44:00 - [92] - Quote axis alpha wrote: I have no got damn reason why you people are complaining about to AR... Just because there's a weapon that can out range the AR? I swear... I can out gun a rr user on my altar with gek from the AR option range.... You know how? BY STRAFING Glad to see someone got the brains and the toughness to find ways to succeed. I respect that sir, honestly. o7 Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. For the State!! [email protected]
Lorhak Gannarsein 1330	Posted - 2014.01.25 01:03:00 - [93] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: axis alpha wrote: I have no got damn reason why you people are complaining about to AR... Just because there's a weapon that can out range the AR? I swear... I can out gun a rr user on my altar with gek from the AR option range.... You know how? BY STRAFING Glad to see someone got the brains and the toughness to find ways to succeed. I respect that sir, honestly. o7 So I've been running a Commando recently, and I needed a weapon aside from my trusty ScR. I tried both of the new guns, and found that they're both exceedingly effective. The RR is superior for mid- long range than the ScR (full auto dragging the reticle over people versus counting my shots cos of overheat). ScR is superior for CQC against one guy, but against groups? RR is amazing. Spool up is irrelevant; I quickly found that either I could scan you first, or I could just tap the trigger to pre-spool. The only times I lost CQC battles were when I was caught by surprise. (i.e there was someone behind me. I'd lose with the ScR too) I tried the AR as well, but it was worthless in comparison. RR (not even any proficiency) now has its place cemented on my logi suits. Happily printing ISK with permahardeners and MLT blasters. Just let me get a couple mil more before nerf, CCP!
trollface dot jpg The Bacon Corporation 125	Posted - 2014.01.25 01:23:00 - [94] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: darkiller240 wrote: Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose This guy HAS to be a troll... Fail troll is fail. If you can't even troll properly you shouldn't even post. Get good at life failtroll. As irritating as his terrible grammar was..... I'm starting to miss Mr. Zitro.....
Beld Errmon The Southern Legion 1259	Posted - 2014.01.25 01:38:00 - [95] - Quote You don't need stats and pages of arguing with noobs from a recruitment corp to prove the point that RRs are currently unbalanced, all you need to do is watch the killfeed, the RR needs some drawbacks to offset its awesomeness at range, why is it only the amarr get re-tarded drawbacks on their weapons and every other faction gets easymode everything?
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 4110	Posted - 2014.01.25 01:43:00 - [96] - Quote Most people dont even know the definition of trolling. Also +1 to OP. It's ridiculous how people actually defend the RR, it's just like when people defended the Duvolle tactical back when it was OP. Remember how they said it was balanced back then, they brought all the false logic they could to defend their crutch, then it got nerfed. Here's a good tip to know if a weapon is OP. If Nyain San or ancient exiles use it 90% of the time, it probably is.
LEHON Xeon Pradox XVI Proficiency V. 137	Posted - 2014.01.25 01:48:00 - [97] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Most people dont even know the definition of trolling. Also +1 to OP. It's ridiculous how people actually defend the RR, it's just like when people defended the Duvolle tactical back when it was OP. Remember how they said it was balanced back then, they brought all the false logic they could to defend their crutch, then it got nerfed. Here's a good tip to know if a weapon is OP. If Nyain San or ancient exiles use it 90% of the time, it probably is. Your last line there is what gave me the idea for my signature. It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8418	Posted - 2014.01.25 05:49:00 - [98] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: axis alpha wrote: I have no got damn reason why you people are complaining about to AR... Just because there's a weapon that can out range the AR? I swear... I can out gun a rr user on my altar with gek from the AR option range.... You know how? BY STRAFING Glad to see someone got the brains and the toughness to find ways to succeed. I respect that sir, honestly. o7 Both of you should read post 91 Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 255	Posted - 2014.01.25 06:14:00 - [99] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: RR has spool up, which limits DPS in the first second. I did cover the spool up time, I said it wasn't enough to really make a difference. The massive range advantage still more than makes up for it. The spool up time screws me all the damn time, KAGE. Especially when I'm using the non-assault version, especially when the enemy has cover nearby and playing peek-a-boo, and especially when the enemy is a heavy. Being flanked during CQC is also a common bane to me because turning, acquiring, and firing a target takes a quarter second longer. This is a life-time in CQC engagements. However, this isn't nearly as big as a problem for the aRR because of the higher DPS. Doubling the charge-up time would probably make the RR the way of the flaylock (dodo). It would become far too situational to use like Mass Driver or Laser Rifle. CCP doesn't exactly have a good track record of balancing weapons being nerfed, this includes my understand of how they treat EVE. Izlare Lenix wrote: In cqc the spool up time of the RR is meaningless when soooooo many squads are running around with scanners. When a RR user knows someone is about to come around the corner they prefire the gun so they are shooting the red one he shows his face, thus minimizing the effect of the spool up time. While this is not necessarily the RRs fault, the current meta gameplay which focuses heavily on scanners has allowed the long range RR to become very powerful in cqc. Then nerf the scanners. This can be applied to any weapon. __________________________________ Lastly, I want to note that everyone is saying that CCP is going to reduce the base damage of almost every weapon. I don't know enough because I need to follow up on news more often. However, demanding a nerf for any weapon, regardless of how overpowered it is, when the gungame itself is in the process of being changed is a bad idea. Everyone here is talking about the 1.7 RR, not 1.#whatever RR. In my honest opinion, this discusion should be postponed until after the gungame is apparently eventually modified. The not Logic Bomb! -->We need better comms!<--
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 646	Posted - 2014.01.25 06:32:00 - [100] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: And just what am I supposed to do when a MD and Laser got sights on me? Please man. I was here on manus peak getting my dropsuit burned to a crisp when I first started. I didn't call for lasers getting nerfed. When MDs were tearing up the place, I didn't complain then. So I suggest you do what I did, fight your hardest to not get in the sights and fight those users. It's called taking a punch and throwing back one. If your brain keeps thinking about the punch to your jaw, you will amplify the damage that isn't as bad as your brain inclines it to be. Which also takes away from your power when you punch back. Grow a pair Casually aim and out DPS them? You're beating them with the RR in their optimal, and you **** on them with the RR outside of their optimal. That's not balance. And you do realize that absolutely nothing changed about the MD, in fact it received a nerf because they took the smoke effect away?

Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 2811	Posted - 2014.01.25 06:40:00 - [101] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Michael Arck wrote: And just what am I supposed to do when a MD and Laser got sights on me? Please man. I was here on manus peak getting my dropsuit burned to a crisp when I first started. I didn't call for lasers getting nerfed. When MDs were tearing up the place, I didn't complain then. So I suggest you do what I did, fight your hardest to not get in the sights and fight those users. It's called taking a punch and throwing back one. If your brain keeps thinking about the punch to your jaw, you will amplify the damage that isn't as bad as your brain inclines it to be. Which also takes away from your power when you punch back. Grow a pair Casually aim and out DPS them? You're beating them with the RR in their optimal, and you **** on them with the RR outside of their optimal. That's not balance. And you do realize that absolutely nothing changed about the MD, in fact it received a nerf because they took the smoke effect away? "How did I beat you?" "You're too fast" "Do you believe me being faster or stronger has anything to do with the muscles in this place?" "Don't think you are...know you are" Great conversation between Morpheus and Neo. Morpheus tells him to stop trying to hit him and hit him. And read the context, smart one. Some guy mentioned the MD. I told him even though it was a nuisance, my mind didn't respond with "oh that's OP, they need to nerf that". No, I didn't give them the pleasure. Instead I searched for ways to beat them. When I face adversity, I don't cry like the lot does. I won't allow it. I search a way to beat them, because there's always a way. Seriously, you guys shouldn't even call yourself mercenaries anymore. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. For the State!! [email protected]
Kira Takizawa 2Shitz 1Giggle 114	Posted - 2014.01.25 07:57:00 - [102] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype versions Ranges can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 Damage profile: -10% shields, +10% armor RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 Damage profile: +10% shields, -10% armor [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. The shields/armor advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out since neither has a bigger bonus or disadvantage to their respective strong point (shield or armor) than the other. there is a reason sniper rifles don't have the same DPS as ARs. Same DPS plus a lot more range = OP. While the RR isn't a sniper rifle, the same principle applies here [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. I agree with most points but I was ripping some RR users up with a Breach AR.. It's still good yet I wouldn't mind the RoF change.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8427	Posted - 2014.01.25 19:16:00 - [103] - Quote Marlin Kirby wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: RR has spool up, which limits DPS in the first second. I did cover the spool up time, I said it wasn't enough to really make a difference. The massive range advantage still more than makes up for it. The spool up time screws me all the damn time, KAGE. Especially when I'm using the non-assault version, especially when the enemy has cover nearby and playing peek-a-boo, and especially when the enemy is a heavy. Being flanked during CQC is also a common bane to me because turning, acquiring, and firing a target takes a quarter second longer. This is a life-time in CQC engagements. However, this isn't nearly as big as a problem for the aRR because of the higher DPS. Doubling the charge-up time would probably make the RR the way of the flaylock (dodo). It would become far too situational to use like Mass Driver or Laser Rifle. CCP doesn't exactly have a good track record of balancing weapons being nerfed, this includes my understand of how they treat EVE. Izlare Lenix wrote: In cqc the spool up time of the RR is meaningless when soooooo many squads are running around with scanners. When a RR user knows someone is about to come around the corner they prefire the gun so they are shooting the red one he shows his face, thus minimizing the effect of the spool up time. While this is not necessarily the RRs fault, the current meta gameplay which focuses heavily on scanners has allowed the long range RR to become very powerful in cqc. Then nerf the scanners. This can be applied to any weapon. __________________________________ Lastly, I want to note that everyone is saying that CCP is going to reduce the base damage of almost every weapon. I don't know enough because I need to follow up on news more often. However, demanding a nerf for any weapon, regardless of how overpowered it is, when the gungame itself is in the process of being changed is a bad idea. Everyone here is talking about the 1.7 RR, not 1.#whatever RR. In my honest opinion, this discusion should be postponed until after the gungame is apparently eventually modified. Plenty of others have close range success with the RR contrary to your experience with one. You are not supposed to be effective at close range with it, as long as it is still great at medium to long range it will not go extinct. You are seriously making the case that a close range nerf to a medium-long range weapon is going to kill it. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2979	Posted - 2014.01.25 19:24:00 - [104] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob 3/10 troll attempt. No.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8431	Posted - 2014.01.25 19:55:00 - [105] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob 3/10 troll attempt. He eventually accepted that the majority of weapons do full damage at point blank, and that the laser rifle was the only exception. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2082	Posted - 2014.01.25 21:12:00 - [106] - Quote a RoF nerf probably would do the trick... A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 255	Posted - 2014.01.25 21:19:00 - [107] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: RR has spool up, which limits DPS in the first second. I did cover the spool up time, I said it wasn't enough to really make a difference. The massive range advantage still more than makes up for it. The spool up time screws me all the damn time, KAGE. Especially when I'm using the non-assault version, especially when the enemy has cover nearby and playing peek-a-boo, and especially when the enemy is a heavy. Being flanked during CQC is also a common bane to me because turning, acquiring, and firing a target takes a quarter second longer. This is a life-time in CQC engagements. However, this isn't nearly as big as a problem for the aRR because of the higher DPS. Doubling the charge-up time would probably make the RR the way of the flaylock (dodo). It would become far too situational to use like Mass Driver or Laser Rifle. CCP doesn't exactly have a good track record of balancing weapons being nerfed, this includes my understand of how they treat EVE. __________________________________ Lastly, I want to note that everyone is saying that CCP is going to reduce the base damage of almost every weapon. I don't know enough because I need to follow up on news more often. However, demanding a nerf for any weapon, regardless of how overpowered it is, when the gungame itself is in the process of being changed is a bad idea. Everyone here is talking about the 1.7 RR, not 1.#whatever RR. In my honest opinion, this discussion should be postponed until after the gungame is apparently eventually modified. Plenty of others have close range success with the RR contrary to your experience with one. You are not supposed to be effective at close range with it, as long as it is still great at medium to long range it will not go extinct. You are seriously making the case that a close range nerf to a medium-long range weapon is going to kill it. Just to be clear, I know you have the best intentions in mind, KAGE. I know you want what's best for the game with true balance, unlike other people who just want their weapon/equipment/vehicle of choice to be king of everything. Regarding your post, yes I do because objectives are in CQC situations. The RR should be in a small disadvantage, not unusable. If I can't even use a weapon in CQC then there is no point in using it. That is why snipers are useless in games like these. In my opinion, every rifle except for sniper-like weapons should be usable at almost any range. If two people, one with an AR and the other with a RR, with equal FPS skill shoot each other in CQC, the guy with the AR should win 3/5 times and vice versa. The extreme of 9/10 times is irrational. I think part of the problem here is that people are getting killed in CQC a few times and people complain forgetting all the times when the RR guy didn't even get a chance to fire because of the charge time. If someone gets the up on someone else, regardless if he/she has a RR, he/she is usually going to win. Not to sound accusational (is that a word?), are those who think the RR is OP mainly armor tank or have used the weapon? I ask this genuinely because I shield tank and I don't have a real problem with enemy RRs. And because I shield tank, I naturally think the ScR is OP, but I know that's unfair because then I'd be complaining about a weapon designed to kill my playstyle. I did think the Flaylock and Mass Driver was OP because explosive weapons was easily killing me, I believed I had merit there. One of the issues I was having before the new rifles came out was how much more difficult it was for me to kill armor tankers because of my AR couldn't be used effectively against them. Things were made more difficult as more and more people armor tanked. At the same time, fewer and fewer people complained about the AR and ScR.....except for scouts of course. I don't know for sure, but I think it takes about the same amount of rounds to kill an ADV Gallente guy opposed to an ADV Caldari guy because of the nature of high hp armor and low hp shields with the hybrid-rail bonuses. This would take some complex math that I don't have time for right now. Would someone else mind doing the math for 422/150 vs. 150/500(?) with an ADV RR? I suspect (but cannot confirm) that the armor guys met their one weakness, now that FL and MD are a rarity, and complaining about it. I wish a had stats on the Dust market place so I could prove or deny my hypothesis. This outrageously long message was brought to you by *The not Logic Bomb*! Where no logic or stats were used, but sure wish he had them to prove some points. The not Logic Bomb! -->We need better comms!<--
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8435	Posted - 2014.01.25 21:55:00 - [108] - Quote Marlin Kirby wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: RR has spool up, which limits DPS in the first second. I did cover the spool up time, I said it wasn't enough to really make a difference. The massive range advantage still more than makes up for it. The spool up time screws me all the damn time, KAGE. Especially when I'm using the non-assault version, especially when the enemy has cover nearby and playing peek-a-boo, and especially when the enemy is a heavy. Being flanked during CQC is also a common bane to me because turning, acquiring, and firing a target takes a quarter second longer. This is a life-time in CQC engagements. However, this isn't nearly as big as a problem for the aRR because of the higher DPS. Doubling the charge-up time would probably make the RR the way of the flaylock (dodo). It would become far too situational to use like Mass Driver or Laser Rifle. CCP doesn't exactly have a good track record of balancing weapons being nerfed, this includes my understand of how they treat EVE. __________________________________ Lastly, I want to note that everyone is saying that CCP is going to reduce the base damage of almost every weapon. I don't know enough because I need to follow up on news more often. However, demanding a nerf for any weapon, regardless of how overpowered it is, when the gungame itself is in the process of being changed is a bad idea. Everyone here is talking about the 1.7 RR, not 1.#whatever RR. In my honest opinion, this discussion should be postponed until after the gungame is apparently eventually modified. Plenty of others have close range success with the RR contrary to your experience with one. You are not supposed to be effective at close range with it, as long as it is still great at medium to long range it will not go extinct. You are seriously making the case that a close range nerf to a medium-long range weapon is going to kill it. Just to be clear, I know you have the best intentions in mind, KAGE. I know you want what's best for the game with true balance, unlike other people who just want their weapon/equipment/vehicle of choice to be king of everything. Regarding your post, yes I do because objectives are in CQC situations. The RR should be in a small disadvantage, not unusable. If I can't even use a weapon in CQC then there is no point in using it. That is why snipers are useless in games like these. In my opinion, every rifle except for sniper-like weapons should be usable at almost any range. If two people, one with an AR and the other with a RR, with equal FPS skill shoot each other in CQC, the guy with the AR should win 3/5 times and vice versa. The extreme of 9/10 times is irrational. I think part of the problem here is that people are getting killed in CQC a few times and people complain forgetting all the times when the RR guy didn't even get a chance to fire because of the charge time. If someone gets the up on someone else, regardless if he/she has a RR, he/she is usually going to win. Not to sound accusational (is that a word?), are those who think the RR is OP mainly armor tank or have used the weapon? I ask this genuinely because I shield tank and I don't have a real problem with enemy RRs. And because I shield tank, I naturally think the ScR is OP, but I know that's unfair because then I'd be complaining about a weapon designed to kill my playstyle. I did think the Flaylock and Mass Driver was OP because explosive weapons was easily killing me, I believed I had merit there. One of the issues I was having before the new rifles came out was how much more difficult it was for me to kill armor tankers because of my AR couldn't be used effectively against them. Things were made more difficult as more and more people armor tanked. At the same time, fewer and fewer people complained about the AR and ScR.....except for scouts of course. I don't know for sure, but I think it takes about the same amount of rounds to kill an ADV Gallente guy opposed to an ADV Caldari guy because of the nature of high hp armor and low hp shields with the hybrid-rail bonuses. This would take some complex math that I don't have time for right now. Would someone else mind doing the math for 422/150 vs. 150/500(?) with an ADV RR? I suspect (but cannot confirm) that the armor guys met their one weakness, now that FL and MD are a rarity, and complaining about it. I wish a had stats on the Dust market place so I could prove or deny my hypothesis. This outrageously long message was brought to you by *The not Logic Bomb! Where no logic or stats were used, but sure wish he had them to prove some points. I don't want it to be completely useless at close range, but I want close range weapons that only function at close range to have an actual edge against the RR at close range since that is their niche. RR has almost identical DPS compared to the AR, and the spool up time doesn't make enough of a difference in CQC to really give close range weapons the edge they need. Why would anyone use an AR instead of RR? 0.5 spool up time would not make it useless in CQC, just give it enough of a disadvantage to balance out its range advantage. I would be fine if the RR's spool up time stays the same, but the DPS (preferably through ROF decrease) was reduced to make the AR shine in its own element. AR should have a clear DPS advantage. I also think you are underestimating the medium and long range weapon usefulness. You don't have to get that close to an objective to make a difference, from 40-50 meters away you can clear an objective from enemies and be very useful. Yeah, I'm an armor tanker, but I don't let it cloud my judgement when it comes to balance; I have always defended the mass driver from claims of it being OP despite being susceptible to it. I didn't make the thread because RRs kill me Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt* Gû¦Gû+
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 242	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:31:00 - [109] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob So RR gets a massive optimal that's about the size of the AR's effective range, but it doesn't sacrifice any DPS compared to the AR to get that huge range advantage; gaining huge advantages without gaining disadvantages as well is the definition of imbalance, advantages and disadvantages have to be balanced with each other. Even if the AR fights an RR in the AR's own optimal range, the DPS between both rifles will just be about the same, and the AR doesn't have any decisive advantages even in its own optimal. I'm not an "AR noob", I use SCR. RR noob Mayby becuase you havent relised as you never used the 'OP' RR but having an increased optimal reange means at close range it Does Less Damage try briging a RR at close range agaist a AR, your sure to lose No it doesn'tGÇª. optimal starts for all weapons at 0, except the laser rifle, and extends to the number known as their optimal range Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives. https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 242	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:33:00 - [110] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't want it to be completely useless at close range, but I want close range weapons that only function at close range to have an actual edge against the RR at close range since that is their niche. RR has almost identical DPS compared to the AR, and the spool up time doesn't make enough of a difference in CQC to really give close range weapons the edge they need. Why would anyone use an AR instead of RR? 0.5 spool up time would not make it useless in CQC, just give it enough of a disadvantage to balance out its range advantage. I would be fine if the RR's spool up time stays the same, but the DPS (preferably through ROF decrease) was reduced to make the AR shine in its own element. AR should have a clear DPS advantage. I also think you are underestimating the medium and long range weapon usefulness. You don't have to get that close to an objective to make a difference, from 40-50 meters away you can clear an objective from enemies and be very useful. Yeah, I'm an armor tanker, but I don't let it cloud my judgement when it comes to balance; I have always defended the mass driver from claims of it being OP despite being susceptible to it. I didn't make the thread because RRs kill me Another problem with the RR is that its hip fire is much much better than any AR's, which is counterintuitive. Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives. https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/

kneegrow face SAM-MIK 22	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:55:00 - [111] - Quote I'm a RR user and the only problem i see with the RR right now is that it's intended to hold down the trigger and let the bullets fly.Just greatly increase the full auto kick, reduce the spool time and i think everything will work it's self out. Mama always had a way of explaining things so I could understand them.
Mortedeamor 1285	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:20:00 - [112] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype versions Ranges can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 Damage profile: -10% shields, +10% armor RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 Damage profile: +10% shields, -10% armor [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. The shields/armor advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out since neither has a bigger bonus or disadvantage to their respective strong point (shield or armor) than the other. there is a reason sniper rifles don't have the same DPS as ARs. Same DPS plus a lot more range = OP. While the RR isn't a sniper rifle, the same principle applies here [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. +1 jihhhaders = av lvl 0 swarm master = av lvl 99+
Mortedeamor 1285	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:22:00 - [113] - Quote Marlin Kirby wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: RR has spool up, which limits DPS in the first second. I did cover the spool up time, I said it wasn't enough to really make a difference. The massive range advantage still more than makes up for it. The spool up time screws me all the damn time, KAGE. Especially when I'm using the non-assault version, especially when the enemy has cover nearby and playing peek-a-boo, and especially when the enemy is a heavy. Being flanked during CQC is also a common bane to me because turning, acquiring, and firing a target takes a quarter second longer. This is a life-time in CQC engagements. However, this isn't nearly as big as a problem for the aRR because of the higher DPS. Doubling the charge-up time would probably make the RR the way of the flaylock (dodo). It would become far too situational to use like Mass Driver or Laser Rifle. CCP doesn't exactly have a good track record of balancing weapons being nerfed, this includes my understand of how they treat EVE. __________________________________ Lastly, I want to note that everyone is saying that CCP is going to reduce the base damage of almost every weapon. I don't know enough because I need to follow up on news more often. However, demanding a nerf for any weapon, regardless of how overpowered it is, when the gungame itself is in the process of being changed is a bad idea. Everyone here is talking about the 1.7 RR, not 1.#whatever RR. In my honest opinion, this discussion should be postponed until after the gungame is apparently eventually modified. Plenty of others have close range success with the RR contrary to your experience with one. You are not supposed to be effective at close range with it, as long as it is still great at medium to long range it will not go extinct. You are seriously making the case that a close range nerf to a medium-long range weapon is going to kill it. Just to be clear, I know you have the best intentions in mind, KAGE. I know you want what's best for the game with true balance, unlike other people who just want their weapon/equipment/vehicle of choice to be king of everything. Regarding your post, yes I do because objectives are in CQC situations. The RR should be in a small disadvantage, not unusable. If I can't even use a weapon in CQC then there is no point in using it. That is why snipers are useless in games like these. In my opinion, every rifle except for sniper-like weapons should be usable at almost any range. If two people, one with an AR and the other with a RR, with equal FPS skill shoot each other in CQC, the guy with the AR should win 3/5 times and vice versa. The extreme of 9/10 times is irrational. I think part of the problem here is that people are getting killed in CQC a few times and people complain forgetting all the times when the RR guy didn't even get a chance to fire because of the charge time. If someone gets the up on someone else, regardless if he/she has a RR, he/she is usually going to win. Not to sound accusational (is that a word?), are those who think the RR is OP mainly armor tank or have used the weapon? I ask this genuinely because I shield tank and I don't have a real problem with enemy RRs. And because I shield tank, I naturally think the ScR is OP, but I know that's unfair because then I'd be complaining about a weapon designed to kill my playstyle. I did think the Flaylock and Mass Driver was OP because explosive weapons was easily killing me, I believed I had merit there. One of the issues I was having before the new rifles came out was how much more difficult it was for me to kill armor tankers because of my AR couldn't be used effectively against them. Things were made more difficult as more and more people armor tanked. At the same time, fewer and fewer people complained about the AR and ScR.....except for scouts of course. I don't know for sure, but I think it takes about the same amount of rounds to kill an ADV Gallente guy opposed to an ADV Caldari guy because of the nature of high hp armor and low hp shields with the hybrid-rail bonuses. This would take some complex math that I don't have time for right now. Would someone else mind doing the math for 422/150 vs. 150/500(?) with an ADV RR? I suspect (but cannot confirm) that the armor guys met their one weakness, now that FL and MD are a rarity, and complaining about it. I wish a had stats on the Dust market place so I could prove or deny my hypothesis. This outrageously long message was brought to you by *The not Logic Bomb*! Where no logic or stats were used, but sure wish he had them to prove some points. if my lr worked just as well in cqc as everything else i wouldnt want the rr nerfed as is when compared to the other weapons in dust its cqc should be nerfed jihhhaders = av lvl 0 swarm master = av lvl 99+
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 646	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:34:00 - [114] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Michael Arck wrote: And just what am I supposed to do when a MD and Laser got sights on me? Please man. I was here on manus peak getting my dropsuit burned to a crisp when I first started. I didn't call for lasers getting nerfed. When MDs were tearing up the place, I didn't complain then. So I suggest you do what I did, fight your hardest to not get in the sights and fight those users. It's called taking a punch and throwing back one. If your brain keeps thinking about the punch to your jaw, you will amplify the damage that isn't as bad as your brain inclines it to be. Which also takes away from your power when you punch back. Grow a pair Casually aim and out DPS them? You're beating them with the RR in their optimal, and you **** on them with the RR outside of their optimal. That's not balance. And you do realize that absolutely nothing changed about the MD, in fact it received a nerf because they took the smoke effect away? "How did I beat you?" "You're too fast" "Do you believe me being faster or stronger has anything to do with the muscles in this place?" "Don't think you are...know you are" Great conversation between Morpheus and Neo. Morpheus tells him to stop trying to hit him and hit him. And read the context, smart one. Some guy mentioned the MD. I told him even though it was a nuisance, my mind didn't respond with "oh that's OP, they need to nerf that". No, I didn't give them the pleasure. Instead I searched for ways to beat them. When I face adversity, I don't cry like the lot does. I won't allow it. I search a way to beat them, because there's always a way. Seriously, you guys shouldn't even call yourself mercenaries anymore. So you attempt to counter with a Matrix clip that has nothing to do with RR being better than MDs and Lasers in and outside of their optimal? When 2 people of equal skill face each other, one holding a RR and the other holding the Laser, the RR will always win 95% of the time. Is that the type of gameplay you're endorsing?
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 694	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:53:00 - [115] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't want it to be completely useless at close range, but I want close range weapons that only function at close range to have an actual edge against the RR at close range since that is their niche. RR has almost identical DPS compared to the AR, and the spool up time doesn't make enough of a difference in CQC to really give close range weapons the edge they need. Why would anyone use an AR instead of RR? 0.5 spool up time would not make it useless in CQC, just give it enough of a disadvantage to balance out its range advantage. I would be fine if the RR's spool up time stays the same, but the DPS (preferably through ROF decrease) was reduced to make the AR shine in its own element. AR should have a clear DPS advantage. I also think you are underestimating the medium and long range weapon usefulness. You don't have to get that close to an objective to make a difference, from 40-50 meters away you can clear an objective from enemies and be very useful. Yeah, I'm an armor tanker, but I don't let it cloud my judgement when it comes to balance; I have always defended the mass driver from claims of it being OP despite being susceptible to it. I didn't make the thread because RRs kill me KAGE, first I have a lot of respect for your opinions and I appreciate the mature and logical approach when laying this out. My isssue and I think to degree Martin Kirby's is the effect of the charge time is NOT the way to go on balancing this rifle specifically. There are other ways of controlling or shaping the balance of the base weapons. I have a very similar experience with Martin in CQC - the intended effect of the spool time does in fact put me at a real disadvantage. In fact, I routinely switch to my SMG when pushing into an OBJ or transitioning through tight areas of the maps to gain back that critical reaction time. I don't think anyone doubts this is a difficult area to determine how to use the subtlest of touches to achieve the desired effect on weapon function or balance between weapons. I think the spool time is one of those factors that can legitmately ruin a weapon if you go a shade overboard with the tweak. Additionally, this is one of the few drawback mechanics that do not have some method of offsetting them; examples would be Amarr advantages for SCR overheat, Minmatar bonuses ref. ammo supply, and in the skill trees how you tone down dispersion, recoil, and ammo capacity via SP investment. The concern of tapping R1 to overcome the spool issue can be fixed. Similar to how large rail turrets work if you balk on the trigger (come off it before firing a round) you incur an increased charge delay. The most logical area to tweak seems to be the hip fire accuracy. You could lower that factor and that would make a fair amount of sense...this is a pretty common trade off for distance weapons in other games. In the same vein you could slightly increase the hip fire accuracy of the AR to give an even greater advantage to the opposite racial (i.e. caldari vs gallente) weapon. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 695	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:01:00 - [116] - Quote Quick addendum...to my previous post. If the Caldari CQC weapon (MagSec SMG) had no charge time I would think it much more acceptable to tweak the spool time of the RR. That would actually make a lot of sense...Caldari dominate in long range and prefer that style but it doesn't mean they wouldn't use one of their other weapon options to mitigate that disadvantage. I've also noticed the MagSec currenlty lists a .3 sec charge time, more than the current RR. That leads me to believe they will probably increase the RR spool time to .3 sec. This further high lights my point that the MagSec should fill a gap in the base rifle capability by having the spool time be lowered with at least SP investment in the skill tree. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1649	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:02:00 - [117] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype versions Ranges can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 Damage profile: -10% shields, +10% armor RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 Damage profile: +10% shields, -10% armor [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. The shields/armor advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out since neither has a bigger bonus or disadvantage to their respective strong point (shield or armor) than the other. there is a reason sniper rifles don't have the same DPS as ARs. Same DPS plus a lot more range = OP. While the RR isn't a sniper rifle, the same principle applies here [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. Sorry could you break down your DPS calculation for me. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8448	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:04:00 - [118] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't want it to be completely useless at close range, but I want close range weapons that only function at close range to have an actual edge against the RR at close range since that is their niche. RR has almost identical DPS compared to the AR, and the spool up time doesn't make enough of a difference in CQC to really give close range weapons the edge they need. Why would anyone use an AR instead of RR? 0.5 spool up time would not make it useless in CQC, just give it enough of a disadvantage to balance out its range advantage. I would be fine if the RR's spool up time stays the same, but the DPS (preferably through ROF decrease) was reduced to make the AR shine in its own element. AR should have a clear DPS advantage. I also think you are underestimating the medium and long range weapon usefulness. You don't have to get that close to an objective to make a difference, from 40-50 meters away you can clear an objective from enemies and be very useful. Yeah, I'm an armor tanker, but I don't let it cloud my judgement when it comes to balance; I have always defended the mass driver from claims of it being OP despite being susceptible to it. I didn't make the thread because RRs kill me KAGE, first I have a lot of respect for your opinions and I appreciate the mature and logical approach when laying this out. My isssue and I think to degree Martin Kirby's is the effect of the charge time is NOT the way to go on balancing this rifle specifically. There are other ways of controlling or shaping the balance of the base weapons. I have a very similar experience with Martin in CQC - the intended effect of the spool time does in fact put me at a real disadvantage. In fact, I routinely switch to my SMG when pushing into an OBJ or transitioning through tight areas of the maps to gain back that critical reaction time. I don't think anyone doubts this is a difficult area to determine how to use the subtlest of touches to achieve the desired effect on weapon function or balance between weapons. I think the spool time is one of those factors that can legitmately ruin a weapon if you go a shade overboard with the tweak. Additionally, this is one of the few drawback mechanics that do not have some method of offsetting them; examples would be Amarr advantages for SCR overheat, Minmatar bonuses ref. ammo supply, and in the skill trees how you tone down dispersion, recoil, and ammo capacity via SP investment. The concern of tapping R1 to overcome the spool issue can be fixed. Similar to how large rail turrets work if you balk on the trigger (come off it before firing a round) you incur an increased charge delay. The most logical area to tweak seems to be the hip fire accuracy. You could lower that factor and that would make a fair amount of sense...this is a pretty common trade off for distance weapons in other games. In the same vein you could slightly increase the hip fire accuracy of the AR to give an even greater advantage to the opposite racial (i.e. caldari vs gallente) weapon. I like the idea of a hipfire buff for AR, and a hipfire nerf for the RR. I don't know it will be enough, but its a reasonable start, and it might really be enough. +1 Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8448	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:05:00 - [119] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype versions Ranges can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 Damage profile: -10% shields, +10% armor RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 Damage profile: +10% shields, -10% armor [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. The shields/armor advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out since neither has a bigger bonus or disadvantage to their respective strong point (shield or armor) than the other. there is a reason sniper rifles don't have the same DPS as ARs. Same DPS plus a lot more range = OP. While the RR isn't a sniper rifle, the same principle applies here [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. Sorry could you break down your DPS calculation for me. ROF stat in the game shows rounds minute, so I divided by 60 to get the rounds per second. I multiply the rounds per second by the damage of each round to get damage per second. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1649	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:10:00 - [120] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype versions Ranges can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 Damage profile: -10% shields, +10% armor RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 Damage profile: +10% shields, -10% armor [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. The shields/armor advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out since neither has a bigger bonus or disadvantage to their respective strong point (shield or armor) than the other. there is a reason sniper rifles don't have the same DPS as ARs. Same DPS plus a lot more range = OP. While the RR isn't a sniper rifle, the same principle applies here [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. Sorry could you break down your DPS calculation for me. ROF stat in the game shows rounds minute, so I divided by 60 to get the rounds per second. I multiply the rounds per second by the damage of each round to get damage per second. Wait the RR hits 60 damage a shot then? Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8449	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:13:00 - [121] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype versions Ranges can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 Damage profile: -10% shields, +10% armor RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 Damage profile: +10% shields, -10% armor [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. The shields/armor advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out since neither has a bigger bonus or disadvantage to their respective strong point (shield or armor) than the other. there is a reason sniper rifles don't have the same DPS as ARs. Same DPS plus a lot more range = OP. While the RR isn't a sniper rifle, the same principle applies here [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. Sorry could you break down your DPS calculation for me. ROF stat in the game shows rounds minute, so I divided by 60 to get the rounds per second. I multiply the rounds per second by the damage of each round to get damage per second. Wait the RR hits 60 damage a shot then? 60.5 damage per shot at prototype. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 258	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:13:00 - [122] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: 1. I don't want it to be completely useless at close range, but I want close range weapons that only function at close range to have an actual edge against the RR at close range since that is their niche. 2 RR has almost identical DPS compared to the AR, and the spool up time doesn't make enough of a difference in CQC to really give close range weapons the edge they need. Why would anyone use an AR instead of RR? 3 0.5 spool up time would not make it useless in CQC, just give it enough of a disadvantage to balance out its range advantage. 4 I would be fine if the RR's spool up time stays the same, but the DPS (preferably through ROF decrease) was reduced to make the AR shine in its own element. AR should have a clear DPS advantage. 5 I also think you are underestimating the medium and long range weapon usefulness. You don't have to get that close to an objective to make a difference, from 40-50 meters away you can clear an objective from enemies and be very useful. 6 Yeah, I'm an armor tanker, but I don't let it cloud my judgement when it comes to balance; I have always defended the mass driver from claims of it being OP despite being susceptible to it. I didn't make the thread because RRs kill me 1 - So we want the same thing. The question is to what degree. I gave the odds 3/5 in favor of the AR. What would be your preference? 2 - I think it does make a difference. One of my biggest gripes about the gun is the charge-up time. While the initial delay takes away potential damage being done it also takes away the ability to fire sometimes at all. Remember when I said the enemy will occasionally play "peek-a-boo?" If the enemy knows I'm around, he has a even larger advantage oppose if I was using any other rifle. 3. - The quarter second is already a huge hindrance. See #2 4. - That would be better, but again, CCP has a horrible track record for nerfing weapons. I just hope it isn't too much. I may not think the RR is OP, but if it really needs to be nerfed, then this the way to go about it, not increasing the charge time. 5. - Only if you have the significant high ground and I still need to push up eventually. 6. - Then why did you make it? Because everyone else was complaining about it? I once made a thread (which I don't believe in anymore because of aim-assist [seriously, get rid of aim-assist]) that the camera shake from explosions should be reduced or removed. That was my solution to the problem. Had nothing to do with damage or blast radius. Mortedeamor wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: In my opinion, every rifle except for sniper-like weapons should be usable at almost any range. If two people, one with an AR and the other with a RR, with equal FPS skill shoot each other in CQC, the guy with the AR should win 3/5 times and vice versa. The extreme of 9/10 times is irrational. I think part of the problem here is that people are getting killed in CQC a few times and people complain forgetting all the times when the RR guy didn't even get a chance to fire because of the charge time. If someone gets the up on someone else, regardless if he/she has a RR, he/she is usually going to win. if my lr worked just as well in cqc as everything else i wouldnt want the rr nerfed as is when compared to the other weapons in dust its cqc should be nerfed One of the problems with this game it that there are so many weird weapons that don't appear in any other game, the LR being one of them. I have no idea how to effectively balance the LR. If it were up to me, I'd have the chromosome LR brought back. That thing kicked my ass, but still terrible in CQC. Still would have LR users use an SMG or something instead. Effectively making it like a MG42 from WWII. This thread isn't about the LR though. The not Logic Bomb! -->We need better comms!<--
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 259	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:18:00 - [123] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: KAGE, first I have a lot of respect for your opinions and I appreciate the mature and logical approach when laying this out. My isssue and I think to degree Martin Kirby's is the effect of the charge time is NOT the way to go on balancing this rifle specifically. There are other ways of controlling or shaping the balance of the base weapons. I have a very similar experience with Martin in CQC - the intended effect of the spool time does in fact put me at a real disadvantage. In fact, I routinely switch to my SMG when pushing into an OBJ or transitioning through tight areas of the maps to gain back that critical reaction time. I don't think anyone doubts this is a difficult area to determine how to use the subtlest of touches to achieve the desired effect on weapon function or balance between weapons. I think the spool time is one of those factors that can legitmately ruin a weapon if you go a shade overboard with the tweak. Additionally, this is one of the few drawback mechanics that do not have some method of offsetting them; examples would be Amarr advantages for SCR overheat, Minmatar bonuses ref. ammo supply, and in the skill trees how you tone down dispersion, recoil, and ammo capacity via SP investment. The concern of tapping R1 to overcome the spool issue can be fixed. Similar to how large rail turrets work if you balk on the trigger (come off it before firing a round) you incur an increased charge delay. The most logical area to tweak seems to be the hip fire accuracy. You could lower that factor and that would make a fair amount of sense...this is a pretty common trade off for distance weapons in other games. In the same vein you could slightly increase the hip fire accuracy of the AR to give an even greater advantage to the opposite racial (i.e. caldari vs gallente) weapon. This^ But why does everyone call me "Martin?" It "Marlin," M-A-R-L-I-N. You know, like the fish. The not Logic Bomb! -->We need better comms!<--
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8449	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:43:00 - [124] - Quote Marlin Kirby wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: 1. I don't want it to be completely useless at close range, but I want close range weapons that only function at close range to have an actual edge against the RR at close range since that is their niche. 2 RR has almost identical DPS compared to the AR, and the spool up time doesn't make enough of a difference in CQC to really give close range weapons the edge they need. Why would anyone use an AR instead of RR? 3 0.5 spool up time would not make it useless in CQC, just give it enough of a disadvantage to balance out its range advantage. 4 I would be fine if the RR's spool up time stays the same, but the DPS (preferably through ROF decrease) was reduced to make the AR shine in its own element. AR should have a clear DPS advantage. 5 I also think you are underestimating the medium and long range weapon usefulness. You don't have to get that close to an objective to make a difference, from 40-50 meters away you can clear an objective from enemies and be very useful. 6 Yeah, I'm an armor tanker, but I don't let it cloud my judgement when it comes to balance; I have always defended the mass driver from claims of it being OP despite being susceptible to it. I didn't make the thread because RRs kill me 1 - So we want the same thing. The question is to what degree. I gave the odds 3/5 in favor of the AR. What would be your preference? 2 - I think it does make a difference. One of my biggest gripes about the gun is the charge-up time. While the initial delay takes away potential damage being done it also takes away the ability to fire sometimes at all. Remember when I said the enemy will occasionally play "peek-a-boo?" If the enemy knows I'm around, he has a even larger advantage oppose if I was using any other rifle. 3. - The quarter second is already a huge hindrance. See #2 4. - That would be better, but again, CCP has a horrible track record for nerfing weapons. I just hope it isn't too much. I may not think the RR is OP, but if it really needs to be nerfed, then this the way to go about it, not increasing the charge time. 5. - Only if you have the significant high ground and I still need to push up eventually. 6. - Then why did you make it? Because everyone else was complaining about it? I once made a thread (which I don't believe in anymore because of aim-assist [seriously, get rid of aim-assist]) that the camera shake from explosions should be reduced or removed. That was my solution to the problem. Had nothing to do with damage or blast radius. Mortedeamor wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: In my opinion, every rifle except for sniper-like weapons should be usable at almost any range. If two people, one with an AR and the other with a RR, with equal FPS skill shoot each other in CQC, the guy with the AR should win 3/5 times and vice versa. The extreme of 9/10 times is irrational. I think part of the problem here is that people are getting killed in CQC a few times and people complain forgetting all the times when the RR guy didn't even get a chance to fire because of the charge time. If someone gets the up on someone else, regardless if he/she has a RR, he/she is usually going to win. if my lr worked just as well in cqc as everything else i wouldnt want the rr nerfed as is when compared to the other weapons in dust its cqc should be nerfed One of the problems with this game it that there are so many weird weapons that don't appear in any other game, the LR being one of them. I have no idea how to effectively balance the LR. If it were up to me, I'd have the chromosome LR brought back. That thing kicked my ass, but still terrible in CQC. Still would have LR users use an SMG or something instead. Effectively making it like a MG42 from WWII. This thread isn't about the LR though. 1) I would like it if 2 players of equal skill fight at close range, one with RR, another with AR, that the AR one always wins. Just like right now if 2 players of equal skill fight at long range, the RR user will win. If the RR user should be able to win at close range if he is sufficiently more skilled than the AR user, but its hard to quantify skill to say how much more skill he would need compared to the AR-wielding enemy. 2-3) Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree whether its enough. 4) I'd willing to take the chance despite their track record. 5) Even on flat terrain, you will win fights at 40-50 meters with an RR because of damage dropoff of other weapons. 6) I made the thread because I found it way too good from experience; I only used the standard one with only lv1 operation, and I found it way too good. I also noticed the "tryhard" protostomp corps are disproportionately gravitating towards is (usually a sign something is OP). Because of these things I decided to do a bit of research, look at the ranges, the DPS, etc and found it in need of rebalancing. It started with a suspicion, but had the numbers contradicted my suspicions, then I would have adjusted my opinion accordingly. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1650	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:49:00 - [125] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype versions Ranges can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 Damage profile: -10% shields, +10% armor RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 Damage profile: +10% shields, -10% armor [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. The shields/armor advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out since neither has a bigger bonus or disadvantage to their respective strong point (shield or armor) than the other. there is a reason sniper rifles don't have the same DPS as ARs. Same DPS plus a lot more range = OP. While the RR isn't a sniper rifle, the same principle applies here [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. Sorry could you break down your DPS calculation for me. ROF stat in the game shows rounds minute, so I divided by 60 to get the rounds per second. I multiply the rounds per second by the damage of each round to get damage per second. Wait the RR hits 60 damage a shot then? 60.5 damage per shot at prototype. That's just insane, no wondervwhy people hate it. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 261	Posted - 2014.01.26 01:13:00 - [126] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: 1. I don't want it to be completely useless at close range, but I want close range weapons that only function at close range to have an actual edge against the RR at close range since that is their niche. 2 RR has almost identical DPS compared to the AR, and the spool up time doesn't make enough of a difference in CQC to really give close range weapons the edge they need. Why would anyone use an AR instead of RR? 3 0.5 spool up time would not make it useless in CQC, just give it enough of a disadvantage to balance out its range advantage. 4 I would be fine if the RR's spool up time stays the same, but the DPS (preferably through ROF decrease) was reduced to make the AR shine in its own element. AR should have a clear DPS advantage. 5 I also think you are underestimating the medium and long range weapon usefulness. You don't have to get that close to an objective to make a difference, from 40-50 meters away you can clear an objective from enemies and be very useful. 6 Yeah, I'm an armor tanker, but I don't let it cloud my judgement when it comes to balance; I have always defended the mass driver from claims of it being OP despite being susceptible to it. I didn't make the thread because RRs kill me 1 - So we want the same thing. The question is to what degree. I gave the odds 3/5 in favor of the AR. What would be your preference? 2 - I think it does make a difference. One of my biggest gripes about the gun is the charge-up time. While the initial delay takes away potential damage being done it also takes away the ability to fire sometimes at all. Remember when I said the enemy will occasionally play "peek-a-boo?" If the enemy knows I'm around, he has a even larger advantage oppose if I was using any other rifle. 3. - The quarter second is already a huge hindrance. See #2 4. - That would be better, but again, CCP has a horrible track record for nerfing weapons. I just hope it isn't too much. I may not think the RR is OP, but if it really needs to be nerfed, then this the way to go about it, not increasing the charge time. 5. - Only if you have the significant high ground and I still need to push up eventually. 6. - Then why did you make it? Because everyone else was complaining about it? I once made a thread (which I don't believe in anymore because of aim-assist [seriously, get rid of aim-assist]) that the camera shake from explosions should be reduced or removed. That was my solution to the problem. Had nothing to do with damage or blast radius. 1) I would like it if 2 players of equal skill fight at close range, one with RR, another with AR, that the AR one always wins. Just like right now if 2 players of equal skill fight at long range, the RR user will win. If the RR user should be able to win at close range if he is sufficiently more skilled than the AR user, but its hard to quantify skill to say how much more skill he would need compared to the AR-wielding enemy. 2-3) Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree whether its enough. 4) I'd willing to take the chance despite their track record. 5) Even on flat terrain, you will win fights at 40-50 meters with an RR because of damage dropoff of other weapons. 6) I made the thread because I found it way too good from experience; I only used the standard one with only lv1 operation, and I found it way too good. I also noticed the "tryhard" protostomp corps are disproportionately gravitating towards is (usually a sign something is OP). Because of these things I decided to do a bit of research, look at the ranges, the DPS, etc and found it in need of rebalancing. It started with a suspicion, but had the numbers contradicted my suspicions, then I would have adjusted my opinion accordingly. 1). So we strongly disagree with each other. I should of asked if two randomly selected people, one with an AR and the other with a RR in a CQC situation then the AR guy should win 3/5 times. An AR guy can still rill the RR guy at long range, it's just harder as it should be. In fact, I think a *small* (let me stress the word small) buff to the AR range is in order. 2-3). Trying using the STD RR in a city at sometime. It can be a real pain in the ass. 4). I would still rather them touch the damage instead. 5). I can't win fights I can't finish. These are objectives I'm talking about where the enemy can play "peek-a-boo" or dash between cover at level ground before I can even fire. I said high ground because cover isn't as nearly as valuable. 6). I've haven't been running into entire squads of better players lately. So I don't really know what they're using as a majority. But the individuals I run into use a variety of weapons. The not Logic Bomb! -->We need better comms!<--
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 695	Posted - 2014.01.26 04:48:00 - [127] - Quote Marlin Kirby wrote: But why does everyone call me "Martin?" It "Marlin," M-A-R-L-I-N. You know, like the fish. Apologies! I should have caught that. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 695	Posted - 2014.01.26 05:23:00 - [128] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: [quote=Marlin Kirby][quote=KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf] 1 - So we want the same thing. The question is to what degree. I gave the odds 3/5 in favor of the AR. What would be your preference? 1) I would like it if 2 players of equal skill fight at close range, one with RR, another with AR, that the AR one always wins. Just like right now if 2 players of equal skill fight at long range, the RR user will win. The RR user should be able to win at close range if he is sufficiently more skilled than the AR user, but its hard to quantify skill to say how much more skill he would need compared to the AR-wielding enemy. KAGE..."always wins" is pretty strong. That's what would pretty much ruin the RR - when it stops being at least functional across the spectrum of engagements that's when folks aren't going use it. How would the "always wins" paradigm work for CR and SCR? Where should they always win? I think the biggest concern is the engagement range...that's what ultimately makes it a concern and it's really difficult to balance. The SCR delivers more damage, the CR has better ROF, and the AR out preforms all in CQC (at least on paper), and the signature advantage of the RR is the range. All the other signature strengths seem to be more palatable for understandable reasons. I wonder what the average engagement range for kills would be over, say, a given week or month. I think you would find that the vast majority of kills fall into the a range band that all four racial rifles can at least effect. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8465	Posted - 2014.01.26 05:26:00 - [129] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: [quote=Marlin Kirby][quote=KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf] 1 - So we want the same thing. The question is to what degree. I gave the odds 3/5 in favor of the AR. What would be your preference? 1) I would like it if 2 players of equal skill fight at close range, one with RR, another with AR, that the AR one always wins. Just like right now if 2 players of equal skill fight at long range, the RR user will win. The RR user should be able to win at close range if he is sufficiently more skilled than the AR user, but its hard to quantify skill to say how much more skill he would need compared to the AR-wielding enemy. KAGE..."always wins" is pretty strong. That's what would pretty much ruin the RR - when it stops being at least functional across the spectrum of engagements that's when folks aren't going use it. How would the "always wins" paradigm work for CR and SCR? Where should they always win? I think the biggest concern is the engagement range...that's what ultimately makes it a concern and it's really difficult to balance. The SCR delivers more damage, the CR has better ROF, and the AR out preforms all in CQC (at least on paper), and the signature advantage of the RR is the range. All the other signature strengths seem to be more palatable for understandable reasons. I wonder what the average engagement range for kills would be over, say, a given week or month. I think you would find that the vast majority of kills fall into the a range band that all four racial rifles can at least effect. Always wins if 2 players are of equal skill (which hardly ever happens). Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 695	Posted - 2014.01.26 06:47:00 - [130] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: [quote=Marlin Kirby][quote=KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf] 1 - So we want the same thing. The question is to what degree. I gave the odds 3/5 in favor of the AR. What would be your preference? 1) I would like it if 2 players of equal skill fight at close range, one with RR, another with AR, that the AR one always wins. Just like right now if 2 players of equal skill fight at long range, the RR user will win. The RR user should be able to win at close range if he is sufficiently more skilled than the AR user, but its hard to quantify skill to say how much more skill he would need compared to the AR-wielding enemy. KAGE..."always wins" is pretty strong. That's what would pretty much ruin the RR - when it stops being at least functional across the spectrum of engagements that's when folks aren't going use it. How would the "always wins" paradigm work for CR and SCR? Where should they always win? I think the biggest concern is the engagement range...that's what ultimately makes it a concern and it's really difficult to balance. The SCR delivers more damage, the CR has better ROF, and the AR out preforms all in CQC (at least on paper), and the signature advantage of the RR is the range. All the other signature strengths seem to be more palatable for understandable reasons. I wonder what the average engagement range for kills would be over, say, a given week or month. I think you would find that the vast majority of kills fall into the a range band that all four racial rifles can at least effect. Always wins if 2 players are of equal skill (which hardly ever happens). If the RR user is more skilled than the AR user; then the RR user should win, or be capable of winning; not sure how more more skill should be required compared to the AR user, but I'm not saying the AR user should win always no matter what, period. Sounds like the AR is pretty close to delivering what you are asking acording to the stats you posted earlier. If two guys of same skill, same dropsuit fits, proto AR vs RR and engage each other at the same time the AR wins the DPS race. Let's say they are strafe dancing and not all shots hit and the engagement and things extend. The reload time for the RR is significantly faster and you stack on the .25sec charge time against an evading opponent...major advantage to AR user. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."

Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1588	Posted - 2014.01.26 07:09:00 - [131] - Quote I don't think increasing the spool up time is the right way to go, since that would make the thing nearly impossible to kill with at long range too. I find that the spool up hurts me more when trying to fight at range because it gives people time to duck back into cover. I think the way to go would be to introduce a kind of burst mechanic. You spool up like normal and it fires at the same rate it does now, except there's a short pause after every 4th or 5th projectile. I think that should take away the ability to spray and pray up close. If you're a really, really good shot then you still be able to kill someone who is right on top of you but you wouldn't be able to just hold down R1 while suppressing a yawn with your other hand.
Ivy Zalinto Bobbit's Hangmen 260	Posted - 2014.01.26 07:20:00 - [132] - Quote I could care less about the actual argument but does it really do additional to shielding? I always felt like it did more to armor and chewed through shields slowly. Could be my eyes or something x.x Edit: Something to contribute here. Spool up time wouldnt matter if it was increased or stayed the same. A smart player with good eyes will know when to start their spool up to hit you the moment you come into los in cqc. I do this often. The rail seems to be good yes but not overpowered. In the right hands though it will chew through people. Dedicated Stealth Scout. Scout instructor; Learning Coalition Scrambler Pistol dedication
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8474	Posted - 2014.01.26 08:03:00 - [133] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: [quote=KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf][quote=Marlin Kirby] KAGE..."always wins" is pretty strong. That's what would pretty much ruin the RR - when it stops being at least functional across the spectrum of engagements that's when folks aren't going use it. How would the "always wins" paradigm work for CR and SCR? Where should they always win? I think the biggest concern is the engagement range...that's what ultimately makes it a concern and it's really difficult to balance. The SCR delivers more damage, the CR has better ROF, and the AR out preforms all in CQC (at least on paper), and the signature advantage of the RR is the range. All the other signature strengths seem to be more palatable for understandable reasons. I wonder what the average engagement range for kills would be over, say, a given week or month. I think you would find that the vast majority of kills fall into the a range band that all four racial rifles can at least effect. Always wins if 2 players are of equal skill (which hardly ever happens). If the RR user is more skilled than the AR user; then the RR user should win, or be capable of winning; not sure how more more skill should be required compared to the AR user, but I'm not saying the AR user should win always no matter what, period. Sounds like the AR is pretty close to delivering what you are asking acording to the stats you posted earlier. If two guys of same skill, same dropsuit fits, proto AR vs RR and engage each other at the same time the AR wins the DPS race. Let's say they are strafe dancing and not all shots hit and the engagement extends. The reload time for the RR is significantly faster and you stack on the .25sec charge time against an evading opponent...major advantage to AR user. The AR does have an edge in close range, but that edge can easily be overcome by pre-spooling. Even without pre-spooling it isn't enough to justify the range difference. The massive range advantage more than makes up for the spool disadvantage at close range, so while the AR is preferable at close range, the RR is overwhelmingly preferable to an AR in general. A point 0.25 spool up time is not much of a sacrifice for a huge range advantage. Because of this, the AR's advantage in close range should be bigger. I also think a high range weapon with the same DPS as the AR is inherently OP, because in close range most weapons you can fight back and perhaps win, but its kind of hopeless to fight back against that same DPS when you're being hit from outside the range of of most other weapons. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 590	Posted - 2014.01.26 08:25:00 - [134] - Quote Nerf rr damage by 15%, or RoF by 20%. Either make it so you need more thab 5 shots to kill someone, or make it so those 5 shots need to be consecutive. Currently it's 'spray this 42 shot clip till 6-8 land correctly, then i win!' With AR it's 'spray 5/6 of this clip to maybe kill them' CR it's 'time these bursts JUST RIGHT, AND keep on target 86% of the time, and -maybe- i'll kill them.' With SCR it's 'spam this for the right time-frame, or just charge shot it correctly' Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) I have a God, His name is Dakka.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8477	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:03:00 - [135] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Nerf rr damage by 15%, or RoF by 20%. Either make it so you need more thab 5 shots to kill someone, or make it so those 5 shots need to be consecutive. Currently it's 'spray this 42 shot clip till 6-8 land correctly, then i win!' With AR it's 'spray 5/6 of this clip to maybe kill them' CR it's 'time these bursts JUST RIGHT, AND keep on target 86% of the time, and -maybe- i'll kill them.' With SCR it's 'spam this for the right time-frame, or just charge shot it correctly' I think the ROF nerf would be fine, honestly I think just a 15% ROF nerf would probably fix it. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 696	Posted - 2014.01.26 18:30:00 - [136] - Quote Good points...however, I think the thrust of our discussion was AR vs RR in CQC, right? The RR works at the range it's supposed to. The RR, SCR, and CR work across the board...so really are we talking about the "RR is OP and needs nerf" or does the AR just need to be tweaked in it's optimal area? A bit of my concern is that you nerf the long range weapon too much and the CQC optimized weapon is still perceived as underpreforming against SCR / CR due to engagement ranges/ROF/alpha damage. The effect would be people just use the SCR and CR since it has the broadest overlap of engagement ranges. I honestly wonder if there are ways to fix some of these issues without crushing one weapon over the other...that seems to be the washing machine cycle of aggravation. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8567	Posted - 2014.01.27 04:39:00 - [137] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Good points...however, I think the thrust of our discussion was AR vs RR in CQC, right? The RR works at the range it's supposed to. The RR, SCR, and CR work across the board...so really are we talking about the "RR is OP and needs nerf" or does the AR just need to be tweaked in it's optimal area? A bit of my concern is that you nerf the long range weapon too much and the CQC optimized weapon is still perceived as underpreforming against SCR / CR due to engagement ranges/ROF/alpha damage. The effect would be people just use the SCR and CR since it has the broadest overlap of engagement ranges. I honestly wonder if there are ways to fix some of these issues without crushing one weapon over the other...that seems to be the washing machine cycle of aggravation. The CR's range is closer to the AR, so its higher DPS compared to the RR would be justified, though I think its likely OP. The SCR can only fire 15 quick shots before damaging and paralyzing its user with overheat. I feel the rifles in general are too effective compared to other weapons, so I would rather seem them nerfed than buffed (RR more than the others since it is the best). Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Sir Petersen Valhalla Nord 506	Posted - 2014.01.27 16:46:00 - [138] - Quote Been here since beta and never before have I experienced weapons sooooo over powered. Got to a point that I-¦m not playing that much anymore. This is not fun at all. The RR & CR need a HUGE nerf. My Channel : Valhalla South
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 701	Posted - 2014.01.28 20:44:00 - [139] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Good points...however, I think the thrust of our discussion was AR vs RR in CQC, right? The RR works at the range it's supposed to. The RR, SCR, and CR work across the board...so really are we talking about the "RR is OP and needs nerf" or does the AR just need to be tweaked in it's optimal area? A bit of my concern is that you nerf the long range weapon too much and the CQC optimized weapon is still perceived as underpreforming against SCR / CR due to engagement ranges/ROF/alpha damage. The effect would be people just use the SCR and CR since it has the broadest overlap of engagement ranges. I honestly wonder if there are ways to fix some of these issues without crushing one weapon over the other...that seems to be the washing machine cycle of aggravation. The CR's range is closer to the AR, so its higher DPS compared to the RR would be justified, though I think its likely OP. The SCR can only fire 15 quick shots before damaging and paralyzing its user with overheat. I feel the rifles in general are too effective compared to other weapons, so I would rather seem them nerfed than buffed (RR more than the others since it is the best). I definitely agree that the rifles and other weapon options need to be evened out with each other. You and I both know that's easier said than done or you quickly go back to MD rounds landing like rain every match. I actually think we could work a bit of the RR vs AR issue by changing the racial weapon classes around. How about shift the Caldari weapons to the Tactical role and lower the damage per shot by about 15% but leave the other characteristics alone. It does have the longest range which fits well with the descriptions and the lowered dmg per shot gives the AR more of an edge in CQC. Give the Amarr the breach role since that implies high alpha damage and the SCR certainly fits that. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8709	Posted - 2014.01.29 22:32:00 - [140] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Good points...however, I think the thrust of our discussion was AR vs RR in CQC, right? The RR works at the range it's supposed to. The RR, SCR, and CR work across the board...so really are we talking about the "RR is OP and needs nerf" or does the AR just need to be tweaked in it's optimal area? A bit of my concern is that you nerf the long range weapon too much and the CQC optimized weapon is still perceived as underpreforming against SCR / CR due to engagement ranges/ROF/alpha damage. The effect would be people just use the SCR and CR since it has the broadest overlap of engagement ranges. I honestly wonder if there are ways to fix some of these issues without crushing one weapon over the other...that seems to be the washing machine cycle of aggravation. The CR's range is closer to the AR, so its higher DPS compared to the RR would be justified, though I think its likely OP. The SCR can only fire 15 quick shots before damaging and paralyzing its user with overheat. I feel the rifles in general are too effective compared to other weapons, so I would rather seem them nerfed than buffed (RR more than the others since it is the best). I definitely agree that the rifles and other weapon options need to be evened out with each other. You and I both know that's easier said than done or you quickly go back to MD rounds landing like rain every match. I actually think we could work a bit of the RR vs AR issue by changing the racial weapon classes around. How about shift the Caldari weapons to the Tactical role and lower the damage per shot by about 15% but leave the other characteristics alone. It does have the longest range which fits well with the descriptions and the lowered dmg per shot gives the AR more of an edge in CQC. Give the Amarr the breach role since that implies high alpha damage and the SCR certainly fits that. I don't want my SCR being messed with, I like the SCR being the tactical type, and I like the current types and their associated the other racial rifles. Nerfing the RR's DPS by like 10% seems like a much simpler solution than changing the types completely. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1334	Posted - 2014.01.29 22:38:00 - [141] - Quote Some people are in love with their op gun, I hope they're lying because the amount of ignorance is ridiculous. And no I'm not just bashing Rr users, even though I use it enough to know how it functions, in some cases the Cr seems decently sketchy. I feel like only the ar isn't AS blatantly stronger than every other non rifle, it's still better by a decennt margin still but not as strong. And before anyone claims bias I've dumped sp into every rifle. "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8874	Posted - 2014.02.05 23:53:00 - [142] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Some people are in love with their op gun, I hope they're lying because the amount of ignorance is ridiculous. And no I'm not just bashing Rr users, even though I use it enough to know how it functions, in some cases the Cr seems decently sketchy. I feel like only the ar isn't AS blatantly stronger than every other non rifle, it's still better by a decennt margin still but not as strong. And before anyone claims bias I've dumped sp into every rifle. +1 Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Heathen Bastard The Bastard Brigade 869	Posted - 2014.02.06 00:47:00 - [143] - Quote Cr needs a tweak, Rr needs a nerfbat to the kneecaps. it has great damage, range, rate of fire, hip fire, and a very nice ammo count. pretty much every other gun has some crippling issue to deal with for excelling at one or two of those. the RR has a negligible charge time, that can be almost completely ignored if you know what you're doing with it. CR: excellent rate of fire, good range, good damage, good ammo. burst weapon, oversampling(pulling the trigger faster than the gun can fire makes it do nothing), chews through it's ammo very quickly. AR: good rate of fire, good damage, very good ammo, excellent hipfire spread. Shortest range of any rifle. ScR:Excellent damage, good range, good hipfire. single fire weapon, overheats. RR: excellent damage, good rate of fire, great hipfire, longest range, very nice ammo count. tiny charge up time that can be circumvented rather easily. One of these things is not like the others, one of these things is OP! there could stand to be some minor tweaks(5-10% ROF on the standard variant CR maybe, those bursts are a bit ridiculous sometimes) but the only one that really needs a nerfbat due to massive OP is the RR If you hear the words "WORTH IT!" look about, something hilarious just happened.
Summ Dude OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 180	Posted - 2014.02.06 01:17:00 - [144] - Quote This is pretty close to what I suggested. Not just a laymen, but the laymen.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8915	Posted - 2014.02.07 01:38:00 - [145] - Quote Its getting really annoying Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4414	Posted - 2014.02.07 01:44:00 - [146] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Its getting really annoying What is? AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8915	Posted - 2014.02.07 01:53:00 - [147] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Its getting really annoying What is? Just had 2 battles in a row where organized corps in proto all using rail rifles were dominating everyone, even at close range and my team wouldn't even bother spawning on the uplinks I set or CRUs I hack. 80% of my deaths were from rail rifles, I thought the weapon was OP for a while now, but this is the first time rail rifles made the game just stop being fun for me; I suppose protostomping is frustrating regardless of the weapon, but there is a reason why it is now their weapon of choice. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4414	Posted - 2014.02.07 01:56:00 - [148] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Its getting really annoying What is? Just had 2 battles in a row where organized corps in proto all using rail rifles were dominating everyone, even at close range and my team wouldn't even bother spawning on the uplinks I set or CRUs I hack. 80% of my deaths were from rail rifles, I thought the weapon was OP for a while now, but this is the first time rail rifles made the game just stop being fun for me; I suppose protostomping is frustrating regardless of the weapon, but there is a reason why it is now their weapon of choice. You said it yourself. Its just tough luck. If it was 10 guys with CR or SCR or even ARs... It doesnt make a difference. They would still own since they are proto stomping. I get your issue because of the RR the range got you zoned, but imagine fighting at CQ vs 6+ Proto CR users? You wont have the chance to even blink and you will be dead. RR is powerful,but very situational. I know i CANT convince you, but i think RR are not OP.... AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 3077	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:00:00 - [149] - Quote You really can't decide the OPness of a weapon from a pub match perspective. CR is lethal. You don't know that. Go into a more competitive arena...say PC, and you will see the CR rip you to shreds. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. For the State!! [email protected]
Lazy Scumbag Intara Direct Action Caldari State 135	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:07:00 - [150] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob ..... Only if you're a RR noob who can only land half his shots.... no becuase im not RR noob im pilot speding most of my time in the sky but the time i spend on the ground i know that RR isent Op you just cant get over the fact that now there is more then 1 dominating gun,now there are 3. Running domination last night, and Scottie spawned me into yet another lopsided match. My first few deaths, I was running a lv. 3 combat rifle... got maybe 1 kill, since all enemies were standing at the objective with rail rifles. Then I switched to a lv 1 rail rifle, and got 3 kills within about 30 seconds. If everyone is running RR, more cover is needed in all maps just to get close enough to use a different weapon. I did notice that while the effective range may be around 100 meters, I was hitting opponents at 160 meters ( got confirmation from crosshair) . The distance is also pretty solid, since the enemy was standing at the objective, which has a distance tag floating on it. 160 meters is truly broken compared to other rifles, anyone else care to test max distance?

KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4418	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:10:00 - [151] - Quote Lazy Scumbag wrote: darkiller240 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: darkiller240 wrote: really RR isent OP only the combat is a bit, the only reason your getting killed so quikely is becuase your amour tanking and your at their optimal range, RR at point blank range does half the damage AR noob ..... Only if you're a RR noob who can only land half his shots.... no becuase im not RR noob im pilot speding most of my time in the sky but the time i spend on the ground i know that RR isent Op you just cant get over the fact that now there is more then 1 dominating gun,now there are 3. Running domination last night, and Scottie spawned me into yet another lopsided match. My first few deaths, I was running a lv. 3 combat rifle... got maybe 1 kill, since all enemies were standing at the objective with rail rifles. Then I switched to a lv 1 rail rifle, and got 3 kills within about 30 seconds. If everyone is running RR, more cover is needed in all maps just to get close enough to use a different weapon. I did notice that while the effective range may be around 100 meters, I was hitting opponents at 160 meters ( got confirmation from crosshair) . The distance is also pretty solid, since the enemy was standing at the objective, which has a distance tag floating on it. 160 meters is truly broken compared to other rifles, anyone else care to test max distance? Bro, you pinpointed it PERFECTLY. The RR is ok. The Lack of cover (AKA BAD MAP DESIGN TY TO CCP) Is not. AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 3077	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:11:00 - [152] - Quote But that doesn't prove the RR is OP, it just says the players were dumb. So no one decide to spawn at MCC, drop in a DS or LAV, round the enemy taking the long way around and dropping uplinks at two different locations to form a rush pinch move? There's plenty of cover in the maps...just a small molehill and a crouch can give you enough time to shake these ups on the attacker. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. For the State!! [email protected]
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8916	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:13:00 - [153] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Its getting really annoying What is? Just had 2 battles in a row where organized corps in proto all using rail rifles were dominating everyone, even at close range and my team wouldn't even bother spawning on the uplinks I set or CRUs I hack. 80% of my deaths were from rail rifles, I thought the weapon was OP for a while now, but this is the first time rail rifles made the game just stop being fun for me; I suppose protostomping is frustrating regardless of the weapon, but there is a reason why it is now their weapon of choice. You said it yourself. Its just tough luck. If it was 10 guys with CR or SCR or even ARs... It doesnt make a difference. They would still own since they are proto stomping. I get your issue because of the RR the range got you zoned, but imagine fighting at CQ vs 6+ Proto CR users? You wont have the chance to even blink and you will be dead. RR is powerful,but very situational. I know i CANT convince you, but i think RR are not OP.... A 0.25 spool up time does not make up for the weapon having practically the same DPS as an AR, and gain a ton more range. The range itself is not the issue, its the fact that it also comes with the same DPS. Th spool up time, while not enough, can make the weapon a bit disavantaged against other weapons (like the CR as you mentioned), but its not enough of a disadvantage to balance out the advantages. The fact that a weapon is a favorite of the month is not proof that a weapon is OP, but it certainly is a sign if the top corps are gravitating to it, especially if the math backs it up (which it does). Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8916	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:15:00 - [154] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: You really can't decide the OPness of a weapon from a pub match perspective. CR is lethal. You don't know that. Go into a more competitive arena...say PC, and you will see the CR rip you to shreds. I'm not deciding its OP based on my experiences in a pub match today, I decided its OP while making the thread by comparing stats and weighing pros and cons. Kind of convenient that only those who play PC can decide what's OP Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
HYENAKILLER X KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND Legacy Rising 552	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:17:00 - [155] - Quote So what. I kill tons of rr users. S h I t I kill these rr guys with breach ar. Rail rifle is only range. You are welcome for my leadership. Proven Aggressive Type I have spoken.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8916	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:22:00 - [156] - Quote HYENAKILLER X wrote: So what. I kill tons of rr users. S h I t I kill these rr guys with breach ar. Rail rifle is only range. Oh, so you killed RR users, guess that proves they aren't OP. I killed some dumbfire swarm launcher users back in the closed beta replication build, guess that means they weren't actually OP. I'm just going to get off the forums and watch something on Netflix now. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 3077	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:34:00 - [157] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Michael Arck wrote: You really can't decide the OPness of a weapon from a pub match perspective. CR is lethal. You don't know that. Go into a more competitive arena...say PC, and you will see the CR rip you to shreds. I'm not deciding its OP based on my experiences in a pub match today, I decided its OP while making the thread by comparing stats and weighing pros and cons. Kind of convenient that only those who play PC can decide what's OP You putting words in my mouth. But let me explain to keep you from making further assumptions and guess on what I'm implying. I'm not saying that PC is the only place that can decide what's OP or not. I didn't even say that, you assumed that. I say two things. First, I say pub matches are not a good base to decide them on. Pub matches are pub matches. They are not that competitive for one. The majority of players does that COD perk(forget name) in Dust. Meaning, they will see what they got killed with several times in a row and spec into it after match. Which unfortunately causes a viral reaction to many players who follow the same route. The second states that in more competitive arenas where the battles are hard fought, folks don't use the RR and slaughter with the CR. This does not state that PC is better grounds to decide the nerfs and buffs on. The latter is quite interesting because coming to the forums, you would think that RR is trump. But players who are without the narrow vision can see that SCR and CR are more of problem than the RR. So basically, I find it interesting if we look at the ENTIRE data block instead of just judging from public matches and looking at its stats. Cause in action, and in different circumstances, the RR wouldn't be trump. Just like when folks talk about protostomping. Nothing is mentioned but this happens in Ambush more than any other game modes. Yet, to a new onlooker, you would think prototypes are running wild in all game modes. Yet the person who made the post only judged from his immediate, being that the only game mode he mostly plays is Ambush. So he really has no sense of the game as a whole since he's only judging from that game mode's perspective. Put him in Skirm/Dom, he wouldn't say the same. That's what I'm talking about here. Having the WHOLE data, not just basing it on what has been experienced in pubs. Especially since there has been mercs who have stated that in PC, the RR isn't even king or instances where mercs where destroyed by CR users(me being a victim, several times) and they had RR in their hands. If the RR is easymode, then how come they couldn't beat the CR user? You cannot come to a conclusive statement without having all the data. You not having all the data continues to skew the viewpoint of players who have no knowledge base to judge from. So when they do play and get killed twice by the RR, they instantly say, "he's right! The RR is OP!" So wrong and why changes voiced by the community is often met with scrutiny. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. For the State!! [email protected]
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 3077	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:35:00 - [158] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: HYENAKILLER X wrote: So what. I kill tons of rr users. S h I t I kill these rr guys with breach ar. Rail rifle is only range. Oh, so you killed RR users, guess that proves they aren't OP. I killed some dumbfire swarm launcher users back in the closed beta replication build, guess that means they weren't actually OP. I'm just going to get off the forums and watch something on Netflix now. That's the problem with this discussion. When more data comes into play, you refute it. Instead of considering the data, if it doesn't sound like its on your bandwagon, you don't want to talk about it. You view it negatively. But yet you want to have changes done that involves affecting the community but you don't want to hear their difference of opinion, from the community? Smh. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. For the State!! [email protected]
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 4419	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:39:00 - [159] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The fact that a weapon is a favorite of the month is not proof that a weapon is OP, but it certainly is a sign if the top corps are gravitating to it, especially if the math backs it up (which it does). Im sorry to have to be the one to break it to you bro... But TOP CORPS players (FA,OH,IMPs,TP,AE etc..) Run Mostly SCR RIFLES and Proto Combat Rifles with Dam mods. Sometimes even AR's. NOT RR.... RR Is a good ''im playing solo'' weapon or a ''protostomping'' weapon, but a it is,its not seen a lot in competitive matches proto vs protos... AceOfJokers666 [ + ] AimBot / VALOR / MAG
HYENAKILLER X KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND Legacy Rising 552	Posted - 2014.02.07 02:58:00 - [160] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: HYENAKILLER X wrote: So what. I kill tons of rr users. S h I t I kill these rr guys with breach ar. Rail rifle is only range. Oh, so you killed RR users, guess that proves they aren't OP. I killed some dumbfire swarm launcher users back in the closed beta replication build, guess that means they weren't actually OP. I'm just going to get off the forums and watch something on Netflix now. If its not the duvolle its the rr. If its not the rr its the cr. Then someone thinks its the scrambler. Give me a fcking break already. Its not the old mass driver, flaylock or current tanks that literally cannot be fought. You are welcome for my leadership. Proven Aggressive Type I have spoken.

DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 3982	Posted - 2014.02.07 03:52:00 - [161] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: All stats are from prototype version Rages can be found here [Comparison] AR Range: 45m optimal, 78m effective DPS: (750 x 37.4 / 60) = 467.5 Damage profile: -10% shields, +10% armor RR Range: 75 optimal, 102 effective DPS: (461.54 x 60.5 / 60) Gëê 465.39 Damage profile: +10% shields, -10% armor [Analysis] The RR is basically the same as the AR DPS-wise (about s 2 point difference), but with waaaaaaaaay more range; the RR's optimal range is almost as high as the AR's effective range. For this massive range advantage. The only downside is a bit of kick, and a short spool up time. There is a problem. The RR must suffer disadvantages at close range (close range is meant to be the AR's domain) to counter its amazing long range, and lack of DPS sacrifice. The RR has to spool up as a close range disadvantage, but the problem is the spool up time is so negligible; this allows the RR to still be effective at close range. The RR has much more kick than the AR, but recoil only matters at long ranges. The shields/armor advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out since neither has a bigger bonus or disadvantage to their respective strong point (shield or armor) than the other. there is a reason sniper rifles don't have the same DPS as ARs. Same DPS plus a lot more range = OP. While the RR isn't a sniper rifle, the same principle applies here [Solution] It needs to have a higher spool up time (0.5 seconds) to make it not as good in close range. A damage or ROF reduction might also be necessary, something with that much range should not have as much DPS. I actually think the RR and breach AR should switch ROF stats, the RR is too good, and the breach AR doesn't have anything going for it. The breach AR shouldn't even exist. It was created as a placeholder for weapons that did not exist at the time, and its purpose has been outlived. It should not be balanced, it should be removed. The AR has too many variations. It's only natural they are ass. Don't even attempt it. CCP has already stated that there will exist 4 variations of of all rifles. Seriously, you AR haters need to let it go. If you can't, then the assault variants must be removed from the Scrambler, Rail and Combat Rifle respectively. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8929	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:05:00 - [162] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Michael Arck wrote: You really can't decide the OPness of a weapon from a pub match perspective. CR is lethal. You don't know that. Go into a more competitive arena...say PC, and you will see the CR rip you to shreds. I'm not deciding its OP based on my experiences in a pub match today, I decided its OP while making the thread by comparing stats and weighing pros and cons. Kind of convenient that only those who play PC can decide what's OP You putting words in my mouth. But let me explain to keep you from making further assumptions and guess on what I'm implying. I'm not saying that PC is the only place that can decide what's OP or not. I didn't even say that, you assumed that. I say two things. First, I say pub matches are not a good base to decide them on. Pub matches are pub matches. They are not that competitive for one. The majority of players does that COD perk(forget name) in Dust. Meaning, they will see what they got killed with several times in a row and spec into it after match. Which unfortunately causes a viral reaction to many players who follow the same route. The second states that in more competitive arenas where the battles are hard fought, folks don't use the RR and slaughter with the CR. This does not state that PC is better grounds to decide the nerfs and buffs on. The latter is quite interesting because coming to the forums, you would think that RR is trump. But players who are without the narrow vision can see that SCR and CR are more of problem than the RR. So basically, I find it interesting if we look at the ENTIRE data block instead of just judging from public matches and looking at its stats. Cause in action, and in different circumstances, the RR wouldn't be trump. Just like when folks talk about protostomping. Nothing is mentioned but this happens in Ambush more than any other game modes. Yet, to a new onlooker, you would think prototypes are running wild in all game modes. Yet the person who made the post only judged from his immediate, being that the only game mode he mostly plays is Ambush. So he really has no sense of the game as a whole since he's only judging from that game mode's perspective. Put him in Skirm/Dom, he wouldn't say the same. That's what I'm talking about here. Having the WHOLE data, not just basing it on what has been experienced in pubs. Especially since there has been mercs who have stated that in PC, the RR isn't even king or instances where mercs where destroyed by CR users(me being a victim, several times) and they had RR in their hands. If the RR is easymode, then how come they couldn't beat the CR user? You cannot come to a conclusive statement without having all the data. You not having all the data continues to skew the viewpoint of players who have no knowledge base to judge from. So when they do play and get killed twice by the RR, they instantly say, "he's right! The RR is OP!" So wrong and why changes voiced by the community is often met with scrutiny. I feel like I need to reiterate this: My conclusions are not derived from public battles, sure public battles that made me want to investigate the RR, but the conclusion is from the numbers. I feel like I need to reiterate this in response to your comparison the the CR: "OP weapons don't appear OP when compared to other arguably OP weapons (CR). The fact that its beaten by something else specifically at close does not disprove that it isn't OP in a general sense." Post 154 While the CR has the advantage at close range (It also kills faster than the AR AND has more range), the RR is generally better at the majority of ranges. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8929	Posted - 2014.02.07 04:06:00 - [163] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: HYENAKILLER X wrote: So what. I kill tons of rr users. S h I t I kill these rr guys with breach ar. Rail rifle is only range. Oh, so you killed RR users, guess that proves they aren't OP. I killed some dumbfire swarm launcher users back in the closed beta replication build, guess that means they weren't actually OP. I'm just going to get off the forums and watch something on Netflix now. That's the problem with this discussion. When more data comes into play, you refute it. Instead of considering the data, if it doesn't sound like its on your bandwagon, you don't want to talk about it. You view it negatively. But yet you want to have changes done that involves affecting the community but you don't want to hear their difference of opinion, from the community? Smh. Like I thought I explained sarcastically, killing a bunch of RR users is in no way evidence that the RR is not OP because a player with an OP weapon can still lose to another more skilled player without an OP weapon. If the "data" actually followed good logic, perhaps it would not be refutable. I welcome reliable data backed by sound logic, not anecdotal evidence that can be applied to everything, even things we know to be OP (was my point with the Replication swarm launcher example). Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
HYENAKILLER X KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND Legacy Rising 552	Posted - 2014.02.07 06:16:00 - [164] - Quote You dont really have a point. The rail rifle is just range. In the optimal range of ANY other weapon it can be countered and defeated like any other weapon. Everytime I see these threads I just lol. If anything rail rifle users are getting soft in cqc from rellying on range. Thats why I dont skill into them. You are welcome for my leadership. Proven Aggressive Type I have spoken.


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