The simplest way to do this is one that I think would have broad support. The elimination of tanks in ambush pub matches. Or at the very least a tank free version of the ambush mode available to players to choose.

The maps must be the smaller ones, so the action is never too far away. I really do think that having such an option for new players to be able to select will go a long way to help player retention as they get more confident to try the other game modes.

The problem with vehicle recall is that it works too well.

Especially shield tanks, since most of the time they can recall cause the shields are just about up.

I think not letting you recall while your modules are still in cool down or active. That really is the easiest fix.

Edit: also, I'm fine with range we have not. But the dmg is just crap. If a Dropship get close enough I can hit him and make him run, but I shouldn't be able to him once he goes far enough away. Same goes for tanks, I should be able to sit on a tower and blow them up.

Really digging Hans' post further above. I refrained from commenting previously because I wanted to discuss things through with CPM members. I'll make sure the relevant Design guys see this thread.

General consensus between ourselves and the CPM appears to be that - Vehicles have taken a step in the right direction but we will be looking to make some additional adjustments to bring them in line with where we think they should finally sit.

b) Strongly disagree. Without getting into somewhat irrelevant real-world examples, there's really nothing wrong with a fast tank. And certainly given the fact that these are the tanks of the future, I see no reason to make them crawl like sitting ducks all the time. From a gameplay perspective, the current speed of tanks is annoying - but its not unmanageable.

I think the range nerf will actually make the Swarm Launcher more fun once they are made a bit more effective. The lock-on time made the challenge of using it to survive while getting the lock, rather than aiming skill, and getting the lock from a sniper nest was not too much of a challenge.

The one thing I see missing in most of these discussions is the role of turret installations. If tanks should be hard to destroy, hardened permanent gun emplacements should be nearly indestructible. Right now they are the easiest things to destroy in the whole game and give a huge reward for zero risk. Turrets make a great tank deterrent when they are active, and can be accessed by those not skilled into AV. I think they should play a larger role in the game. I think they should be indestructible but capable of being disabled, this would allow infantry to engage tanks, but only in certain areas but allows tanks to disable them but not able to ignore them after that, their will be a constant struggle for control of the turrets, which I think makes for good gameplay.

Other than that, what other posters have said, hardeners and escapability are the main problems and no WP for AV work unless their is a kill. Even then it is limited considering the teamwork that is necessary.

Why does there have to be just one missile launcher in the game? Can't there be a long-range low DPS missile and a high DPS short range (possibly unguided) missile?

There IS a problem with drive shaft reversals at those speeds. Without getting into somewhat irrelevant real-world examples of my decade of operational experience in aircraft carrier and submarine engine rooms, I can say that the torque would snap any super galactic space shaft with the way tanks alternate forward and reverse currently in DUST.

There should be a counter every time a particular tank reaches a speed threshold that prevents it from reversing direction. The counter would start when the tank is stopped or at a very low speed. What would that do? It would prevent tanks from outmaneuvering freakin scouts in close quarters. If tanks were that good, why even manufacture dropsuits? I'd put my R&D into tank control point hacking mods instead.

If this isn't a good idea, and since we are hitting the "I Believe Button", why aren't dropsuits of the future equipped with magnetic devices that alter the trajectory of large caliber rounds away from them? From a gameplay standpoint, that would mean tanks would need to shoot infantry with anti-infantry weapons (go figure). I think it makes zero sense that the best anti-infantry weapon is the best anti-vehicle weapon. Maybe that feature could be unique to small and/or medium suits and only applicable over a certain distance (say 15-20 meters?), but I think it would add some balance and strategy into the current gameplay.

Really digging Hans' post further above. I refrained from commenting previously because I wanted to discuss things through with CPM members. I'll make sure the relevant Design guys see this thread.

General consensus between ourselves and the CPM appears to be that - Vehicles have taken a step in the right direction but we will be looking to make somemany additional adjustments to bring them in line with where we think they should finally sit.

Part time AV guys, ya'll are funny. Bamm Havoc has a great vid on exactly why you lot are such ....well to put it mildly, scrubs. In the intro to another one he forge kills 3 tanks in 1.8, in about a minute.

You don't want to become a dedicated AV player. You don't want to get proficiency in Forge Guns, Swarms, or Grenades or Proximity Mines. You haven't bothered to figure out a standard tank with ADV modules is over 250K isk. That the turret is still the cost of a proto suit. That red rail turrets will kill most tanks in 3 -4 shots.

Nope not for you lot. You want to be your own little infantry protostomper, and you want to be able to put tanks down like a friggin MLT suit. You can't anymore and its wonderful.

CCP you could end this debate witth 1 single change to the game:
-allow the usage of all weapons while beeing a passanger in a dropship/LAV.
The current situation is mainly frustrating for AV cause tanks can just drive off with too much speed which results getting out of range or into cover. With dropships and swarm/forgegunners standing in the door to continue pressure to hostile vehicles on the move could solve the whole balance. Tankers claim that it should take teamwork to take them out. Then we should get the tools to achieve this.

Now you could hear tankers complain "but a LAV with a forgegun is like a tank!" no its not. It has much lower HP and can be taken out with 2 swarm volleys. If tankers say that AV should require teamwork then it should take teamwork to protect them against AV dropships.

Have you done the math to put a tank together?

I agree with Fox and others that the whole dynamic seems pretty balanced now in theory. The main problems that I see are the ability for tanks to fit multiple hardeners with no penalty, and the uselessness of Swarms and AV Grenades.

I think a lot of the current problems with tanks would be solved if they had more risk with engaging in close quarters combat (disregarding the issues with rail tanks). I don't know exactly what the solution is, but I know that having perma-hardened tanks is detrimental. Buffing AV grenades to be a scary weapon would also help with this I think, although perhaps with a slight range nerf to keep them from being as overpowered and versatile as they were previously. If a tank gets close enough to be withing grenade range then they should be punished for it.

The top turrets of all variants used to cost almost a million ISK each. Made a really good tank cost 1.2mil ISK at the very least. How would you like to lose out on that much ISK each death?

Only the most tanker homer guys and lovers of 'I win' buttons can defend the current state of tank dominance. CCP u guys are apparently looking at the metrics and are aware of the problems. What vehicle issues are you looking to resolve in 1.8?

the vehicle issues as I see them are:

a) Tanks dont cost nearly enough compared to their raw power. A tank should be 3x the cost of a proto suit if its going to be anywhere near as powerful as they are now.

b) They are too fast. Faster than infantry is no problem but right now they're sportscar fast.

c) You can't cripple them. Vehicles with less than half of its total health should be moving at 1/4 of normal speed.

d) The enter/exit animation is a glitch. lets do away with teleporting in and out of vehicles and add actual animations that people cant take advantage of in a gunfight or to abandon a tank about to explode. Especially mr pop-out-in-an-instant Heavy in his LAV.

e) The modules repair way too fast. going from crippled to full health in a split second? No Way. The increase should be gradual.

f) Too many AV weapons are crap. The plasma cannon has a silly firing arc and doesn't do nearly enough damage for a weapon that reloads after every shot. Prox mines dont do enough damage (they should start @ 2000 per) and every vehicle has a mine detector. Shouldnt that be a module? REs should stick to tanks.

g) You can recall them in an instant. No vehicle should be recalled if its damaged and they should have to wait on the RDV just like when theyre dropped off. No teleporting. Recalling cant be an exploit to get your tank out of harm's way when things go badly.

h) AV was tuned badly. Swarms were taken down too much and AV grenades were too. Forges are the direct counter to vehicles and the hits should be devastating to them. Reduce grenade spam by making people equip grenades and then throw them with R1.

Got a problem with tanks? Call in a missile or railgun tank. Problem solved.

Also - I don't think the blaster is overpowered against infantry like most people. If you don't have something that devastates infantry at the base of the tank tree then there is no reason for other tanks to be called in to deal with it. The outcome would be no tanks on the battlefield.

But yes - AV needs a bit of a buff - especially the Plasma Cannon and Swarms.

General consensus between ourselves and the CPM appears to be that - Vehicles have taken a step in the right direction t.

Really digging Hans' post further above. I refrained from commenting previously because I wanted to discuss things through with CPM members. I'll make sure the relevant Design guys see this thread.

General consensus between ourselves and the CPM appears to be that - Vehicles have taken a step in the right direction but we will be looking to make some additional adjustments to bring them in line with where we think they should finally sit.

Anyone who simply says "use teamwork" has clearly never encountered tankers doing the same. A squad with a couple tankers will roll the squad with none..

Also, while we're on the subject, I totally think that hacked enemy vehicles should be allowed to be RDV recalled and put into your own inventory stock. This just makes sense. Its New Eden after all, if someone leaves you something awesome you should be allowed to just steal it and own it.

the tanks speed has been crippled enough. the base speed is definitely not hard to deal with and the nitrus is useless unless its complex. its not hard to take out tanks, use teamwork and tanks wont stand for long. railguns are broken and everyone knows it, nerf damage by 25% and RoF by 15% and everyone is happy

Anyone who simply says "use teamwork" has clearly never encountered tankers doing the same. A squad with a couple tankers will roll the squad with none. If you need to dedicate half your squad to AV to take out one tank, that tanker now has squadmates free to 2:1 your non AV then mop up the AV.

I kill a lot of idiots with my pistol when AV but any decent players would destroy me due to my lack of range. And even the idiots usually distract me long enough for the tanks to escape.


Also, chasing off tanks all day isn't fun. Sorry but I want kills. Even WP won't make it much better unless the WP is significant enough to earn me a solo orbita like infantry play would.

Finally I have hopped in militia tanks to see what I'm up against. I literally started laughing my ass off at how useless swarms are. With harderner on I literally outrepped and off I could just ignore them. Only other tanks have ever killed me while my blaster destroys AV. And I'm a complete skill less noob in a tank.

Really digging Hans' post further above. I refrained from commenting previously because I wanted to discuss things through with CPM members. I'll make sure the relevant Design guys see this thread.

General consensus between ourselves and the CPM appears to be that - Vehicles have taken a step in the right direction but we will be looking to make some additional adjustments to bring them in line with where we think they should finally sit.