To whom do you think you are speaking?

Have I not openly called for buffs to AV?

Who amongst the AV crying circle can say the same? Where are the AV'ers who did call for nerfs when swarms or AV nades were OP? Can you find them? I doubt it very much. No, when AV was too strong, the AV group called everyone else scrubs. Yet today, you find more than just me repping the tankers saying that things need to change for AV to be more effective.

When the forge was OP I was one of those calling for it be nerfed only in a manner that would not limit its use as an AV weapon. Where can you display an AV person arguing for missile and blaster tanks?

No, I have a long and proven track record of being sensible, and making arguments that would promote balance and engaging gameplay.

I am so sick and tired of the medium frame crybabies. The new patch has been out for long enough now that there is no reason for people to not have proto forges and basic advanced heavy frames, which makes a fantastic AV fit.

I see plenty of idiots running around trying to swarm my shield tank. These are the types of people who complain about tanks being OP.

Those "Medium Frame Crybabies" do have a point though.

You should not have to skill into a certain dropsuit class just to deal with a niche role. What If I told Scouts that if they wanted to kill Medium Frames, they had to skill into heavies? That wouldn't seem too logical now would it?

Also, I believe that everyone else (like me) that your telling to become a heavy is also refusing to do so because they are trying to save up as much SP as possible for when the other racial heavies are released in 1.8. (150k SP can be the difference between Operation IV or V.)

And what if somebody's a Scout? What should they do if they want to kill tanks effectively?

As for your first statement, that was a direct reply to your "somebody sucks at AV" statement. I will however, admit that I probably should have payed more attention to the conversation as opposed to simply dismissing the statement as "trash talk." My apologizes.

And what if somebody's a Scout? What should they do if they want to kill tanks effectively?

Only the most tanker homer guys and lovers of 'I win' buttons can defend the current state of tank dominance. CCP u guys are apparently looking at the metrics and are aware of the problems. What vehicle issues are you looking to resolve in 1.8?

the vehicle issues as I see them are:

a) Tanks dont cost nearly enough compared to their raw power. A tank should be 3x the cost of a proto suit if its going to be anywhere near as powerful as they are now.

b) They are too fast. Faster than infantry is no problem but right now they're sportscar fast.

c) You can't cripple them. Vehicles with less than half of its total health should be moving at 1/4 of normal speed.

d) The enter/exit animation is a glitch. lets do away with teleporting in and out of vehicles and add actual animations that people cant take advantage of in a gunfight or to abandon a tank about to explode. Especially mr pop-out-in-an-instant Heavy in his LAV.

e) The modules repair way too fast. going from crippled to full health in a split second? No Way. The increase should be gradual.

f) Too many AV weapons are crap. The plasma cannon has a silly firing arc and doesn't do nearly enough damage for a weapon that reloads after every shot. Prox mines dont do enough damage (they should start @ 2000 per) and every vehicle has a mine detector. Shouldnt that be a module? REs should stick to tanks.

g) You can recall them in an instant. No vehicle should be recalled if its damaged and they should have to wait on the RDV just like when theyre dropped off. No teleporting. Recalling cant be an exploit to get your tank out of harm's way when things go badly.

h) AV was tuned badly. Swarms were taken down too much and AV grenades were too. Forges are the direct counter to vehicles and the hits should be devastating to them. Reduce grenade spam by making people equip grenades and then throw them with R1.

To whom do you think you are speaking?

Have I not openly called for buffs to AV?

Who amongst the AV crying circle can say the same? Where are the AV'ers who did call for nerfs when swarms or AV nades were OP? Can you find them? I doubt it very much. No, when AV was too strong, the AV group called everyone else scrubs. Yet today, you find more than just me repping the tankers saying that things need to change for AV to be more effective.

When the forge was OP I was one of those calling for it be nerfed only in a manner that would not limit its use as an AV weapon. Where can you display an AV person arguing for missile and blaster tanks?

No, I have a long and proven track record of being sensible, and making arguments that would promote balance and engaging gameplay.

I am so sick and tired of the medium frame crybabies. The new patch has been out for long enough now that there is no reason for people to not have proto forges and basic advanced heavy frames, which makes a fantastic AV fit.

I see plenty of idiots running around trying to swarm my shield tank. These are the types of people who complain about tanks being OP.

Tell me, which suit specifically mentions engaging vehicles in its description? Is it the medium frame? Is it the light frame?

If someone has a desire to perform AV as a role, they spec heavy. If someone wants to have supplemental AV, they get the swarms and the PLC. That is the meta right now.

Further, even if the swarms and PLC get buffed, this fundamental balance should not change. AV should be centered on the heavy suit, which has drawbacks against infantry, because then you can increase the power of AV without completely ******* up the balance of everything else. Do everything medium frames are not balanced.

The heavy with a FG should be the peak of infantry based AV. It should have the HP and the damage output to drop vehicles while still being vulnerable to medium and light frames.

As to the argument about people saving SP: That is complete BS.

If you are on the forums complaining about tanks but refuse to drop 310k SP into an assault forge to deal with them, then I have no sympathy for you. If you refuse to put on a MLT heavy suit because it is not a medium frame, then why should anyone care about your opinion?

On my alt, I normally run around in a Amarr logi suit, but as soon as a tank shows up, I immediately grab my forge and the necessary grenade. I don't have to fundamentally alter how I play the game just so that I have an effective AV fit. But I definitely have that option. If you don't, that is on you.

At the very least people could use a MLT forge in a MLT fatsuit if they want to struglle at AV. Or they can invest some SP and watch stuff explode.

But you can't sit on your SP and cry like a *****. Unless you want to be derided for it.




Not be a scout?

Throw down an uplink and have an AV player spawn?

Scan and track to feed intel to the heavies with FG's?

Why does every frame need to be effective at killing tanks?

THIS, omfg so much of this!!! The reasons you enumerated are why I ******* hate the community now...
Everyone needs to grow a ******* pair and HTFU instead of complaining like little kids over subjects that have already been discussed to death.

Hypocrite much?

1: No, prices are fine, for MLT anyways. Nerf em', and the MLT modules, and STD and enhanced ones, and less problems will occour.

2: No they are not too fast. webs need to come in.

3: lolno. EWAR (which includes webs) is the solution, not that. we've passed that point of failure in engineering in New Eden, where our **** doesn't break until it breaks.

4: Agreed. Would be much cooler that way anyways. I would love to see myself climbing into a pod.

5: Firing arc for PLC is fine, and PLC is also a AI weapon (arguably more so than a AV weapon). Doesn't mean it needs work, just that isn't how to fix it. proxy mines can go up to 2k damage, but the detector needs to stay. Half the time they don't show up when scanned down, and the sound is quite low when fighting. Most of the time, I see them before I hear them.

6: No, that's stupid. Rather, it should be a instant timer, and a RDV picks it up. Once picked up, if there is a cooldown on a module, the vehicle can't be called back until it's done. once the cooldown is gone, it will repair the shields and the armor up to 100HP/s or anything higher if the repper can do so. If you have multiple hulls of the same fit, you can call in those. That works far better.

7:AV weapons are fine. People is just still used to easy mode, and doesn't want to change from that. stop sitting still, go a pair, and chase that ****** down.

Man, it's a good thing you have no final say nor affiliation with CCP. Otherwise this game would quickly become HeavyForgeGun 514.

The Meta? The current meta is Medium Frames holding rifles? You want that? God help us all if anyone ever takes your statement on the meta seriously.

Which brings me to my second point. I am not refusing to spec into heavy frames simply because it's not a Medium Frame. However, I won't discuss my reasons with you; for I'm sure that you'll simply use 3rd grade logic to lead back to your baseless argument about how "He won't do it because it's not a Medium Frame." Good attempt at trolling though. 5/10.

310k? I don't even have 100k yet. But since we are on the whole SP subject.

I have spent nearly 10m SP maxing out skills involving Swarm Launchers. Why would I (or any logical person), go spend millions more SP on something simply because some nut on the forums said that the other gun should be the MASTER RACE of that role?

Which brings me to yet another point. Why would anyone in their right mind use a weapon when one weapon is theoretically better in literally every way possible? You can have a gun that kills things in 2-4 shots and requires two people at best, coupled by a suit that gives you a good defense against enemy attacks, and twice the range OR you can have a gun that kills things in 5-8 shots, requires coordination from an entire squad, and leaves you practically defenseless from every weapon in the game.

Why does every frame have to be effective at killing tanks you ask? Because tanks are...

Wait for it....

Wait for it...

A NICHE!

That's like asking why every frame type needs to be good against Laser Rifles. A niche is not supposed to have only 1 effective counter.

And last time I checked, tanks are a niche role, not a "be all, end all things but one" class. If you can quote and link a post from a CCP developer saying otherwise, then I'll gladly accept your FORGE MASTER RACE bull$#!t.

PS:
If you can give me one good reason as to why anyone should use a Forge Gun over Swarms and Plasma Cannons (assuming they haven't invested SP into the latter) under your logic, then I will empty what little ISK I have left into refunding the ISK of every vehicle that I have ever destroyed. (And looking at the numbers from the AV registry, that's a lot of ISK).

7/10 You managed to put me in a bad mood. Now I'm gonna go play some ROMs on my laptop to go blow of some steam.

[/HAND]

I invested wasted over 10mil. That gives me the right to watch things explode. Care to troll again?

Willfully ignorant, ignored.

And your insult as to why I won't spec into heavies wasn't?



You won't discuss why you won't spec AV, then don't discuss why you think tanks are OP.

Heavy Frames aren't AV. And I am already deeply 'speced' into AV, so I will discuss why I think tanks are OP.



So you spent 10 mill SP into swarms, an OP weapon, and complain when they get nerfed. Go ask the Cal logis how that worked out for them. When tanks get nerfed, the only people who will still be playing them are people who like tanking.

If you like spamming fire and forget missiles, then you spent your SP wisely. If you invested heavily because they were OP, then you are paying the price for being a scrub.

But if you refuse to spend a weeks worth of SP for an effective vehicle counter, than you are in no position to complain about tanks messing you up.

Should I willfully ignore this? According to what you stated, you have no rights, especially in a video game. So by your sayings alone, you have no right to say that Swarm Launchers were OP. (But since playing Ocarina of Time put me in such a good mood, I'll respond to this blatant double standard anyway).

I love how tankers like to use the fire and forget tern, Unfortunately, the insult doesn't mean much when turrets themselves don't require any skill beyond joystick rotation and R1. Heck, that actually applies to tanks themselves as well. Unless you find that there is an actual skill in activating a hardener and holding down R1.

I invested into Swarm Launchers because there is no Minmatar or Caldari heavy, and because Plasma Cannons are not viable. But hey keep making more baseless assumptions that are in the form of insults. It won't make your point any more or less truthful.

The answer to something being underpowered is not to skill into something else, nor is it to stop using your weapon. If you truly believe this, then you would go into Scout Registry right now and tell every scout there to HTFU and skill into a Medium Frame. You and I both know that you wouldn't do this, so I'll just leave this other double standard at ease for now.



I don't know why people would still be using swarms, especially against shield tanks. But it happens all the time. People are just stupid I guess.

Continued below.

I don't know, maybe it's because they have 10mil+ SP invested and don't want to waste nearly 2 months worth of SP skilling into something else? But your right, it's abusrd to use the thing that you invested months worth of time and SP into

Though not many are actually using Swarms anymore. They've moved on to Sicas/Gunnlogies with Particle Accelerators and State Particle Cannons. I guess that's mission accomplished for the pilot community eh?

Reading on now.

Vehicles are a role, just like a heavy, a logi, or a scout.
Even if they were not, there are more than one counter.
FG, RE's and Prox, or a combo of medium frames.
Not to mention the vehicle counters.

Roles don't have only one effective counter, they have multiple counters. And vehicles are also a Niche. Why?

Because there is a hard-cap on the amount that can be in the field, they can't access indoor areas that infantry can, and most importantly, you need an infantry dropsuit to use them. moving on now.

Technically, Plasma Cannons are an counter to a Dropship, but is it effective? Lolno.

Removing multiple people from the rest of the battle to deal with one person is not effective .Remote Explosives are a joke, and anyone who is killed by them either has their TV muted or is a complete scrub. Then again, if tankers are advocating them as viable, that would explain a lot wouldn't it?

If something is theoretically better than every other weapon designed for it's purpose in every way possible, then every other weapon designed for the same purpose is ineffective.

Maybe I wasn't clear the last few times, So I'll state it again.

No item should ever be theoretically better than the other item intended for it's same purpose in every way that matters. This makes the other weapons ineffective, and guarantees that nobody will use anything other than said weapon; which negates the purpose of it's existence in the first place.

Despite your belief, AV isn't, nor should be FORGE MASTER RACE. It should be SL=/=FG=/=PLC




Last time I checked, armor is a critical component on battlefields, not just a sideshow.

As for your request for a reason to spec FG, here is the only one you should need:

It works.

If you claim to be an AV'er, then that is reason enough.

Otherwise, stop pretending that you have any considerations for real AV work, and just admit you want your OP swarms
back so you can go back to being a scrub camped up on a tower spamming missiles.

I'm not saying vehicles are a sideshow. I'm saying they aren't the "Be all, End all but one" class that your FORGE MASTER RACE mentality would like to believe.

Because "It Works?" lmao

If you believe that true AVers actually follow that ideal, then you clearly have no idea of what a true AVer is whatsoever. This is why I always get a good laugh everytime a dedicated tanker calls themselves AV. You may sit down now.

Dude, I want to send you a bro-hug and some ISK right now. Nothing any tanker has ever told me (or anyone) has been so hilarious before. I thought that my last laugh would have been when Spkr4TheDead sent me mail calling himself dedicated AV.

Never once spammed missiles from a tower unless I was fighting an Assault Dropship that was also hovering over a tower (which wouldn't really be spamming tbh).

No, I don't want to 3 shot tanks again (unless it's MLT/STD fitted). No I do not want 400m back. Heck, the "It works" mentality that your biased, tunnelvisioned. head that believes that AV actually follows that mentality would imply that we want to 3 shot properly fitted vehicles again (which wasn't even capable in the first place). It would also imply that we want the ability to destroy MCCs like Forge Guns used to do.

And until you can present any irrefutable proof of the dedicated AV community ever following or saying the "it works" statement or anything in that last paragraph, your "argument" (or lack thereof) is ad-hominem at best.

You may sit down now. And please refrain from acting as if you have even the slightest thing about true AVers, for you clearly have none.

Get back in your tank.

Someone sucks at AV.

When you start talking about your rights in video games, it is time to step away and reevaluate your life.

You have no rights, certainly not in a video game.

Grow up.

I will add one last missing piece of the puzzle - now that CCP has implemented an anti-farming mechanism, its time to reinstate War Points for partial damage on vehicles. Part of all the QQ over tank power (which I attribute more accurately to A/V being underpowered) is rooted in this deep-seated assumption that the role of the A/V specialist is to actually kill the vehicle. And really, the only reason we've grown used to this is because of a long period where HAV's and vehicles in general were a joke in terms of how easy they were to pop. Vehicle users deserve gameplay where they can stay in their vehicles most of the time, and to accomplish this we really need the existing "windows of opportunity" system to do its job. That said, successfully sending a dropship high in the air or a sending a tank off into the hills is still removing it as an immediate threat, and isn't that much different than popping it and forcing the tanker to call in another from somewhere distant. It's time to bring back WP's and for A/V users to get credit for protecting their infantry brethren whether or not they actually kill the HAV to get rid of it for a period of time.

o7

b) They are too fast. Faster than infantry is no problem but right now they're sportscar fast.

c) You can't cripple them. Vehicles with less than half of its total health should be moving at 1/4 of normal speed.

d) The enter/exit animation is a glitch. lets do away with teleporting in and out of vehicles and add actual animations that people cant take advantage of in a gunfight or to abandon a tank about to explode. Especially mr pop-out-in-an-instant Heavy in his LAV.

e) The modules repair way too fast. going from crippled to full health in a split second? No Way. The increase should be gradual.

f) Too many AV weapons are crap. The plasma cannon has a silly firing arc and doesn't do nearly enough damage for a weapon that reloads after every shot. Prox mines dont do enough damage (they should start @ 2000 per) and every vehicle has a mine detector. Shouldnt that be a module? REs should stick to tanks.

g) You can recall them in an instant. No vehicle should be recalled if its damaged and they should have to wait on the RDV just like when theyre dropped off. No teleporting. Recalling cant be an exploit to get your tank out of harm's way when things go badly.

h) AV was tuned badly. Swarms were taken down too much and AV grenades were too. Forges are the direct counter to vehicles and the hits should be devastating to them. Reduce grenade spam by making people equip grenades and then throw them with R1.

General consensus between ourselves and the CPM appears to be that - Vehicles have taken a step in the right direction

Learn to spell before you scold others.

Really digging Hans' post further above. I refrained from commenting previously because I wanted to discuss things through with CPM members. I'll make sure the relevant Design guys see this thread.

General consensus between ourselves and the CPM appears to be that - Vehicles have taken a step in the right direction but we will be looking to make some additional adjustments to bring them in line with where we think they should finally sit.

CCP you could end this debate witth 1 single change to the game:
-allow the usage of all weapons while beeing a passanger in a dropship/LAV.
The current situation is mainly frustrating for AV cause tanks can just drive off with too much speed which results getting out of range or into cover. With dropships and swarm/forgegunners standing in the door to continue pressure to hostile vehicles on the move could solve the whole balance. Tankers claim that it should take teamwork to take them out. Then we should get the tools to achieve this.

Now you could hear tankers complain "but a LAV with a forgegun is like a tank!" no its not. It has much lower HP and can be taken out with 2 swarm volleys. If tankers say that AV should require teamwork then it should take teamwork to protect them against AV dropships.

Really digging Hans' post further above. I refrained from commenting previously because I wanted to discuss things through with CPM members. I'll make sure the relevant Design guys see this thread.

General consensus between ourselves and the CPM appears to be that - Vehicles have taken a step in the right direction but we will be looking to make some additional adjustments to bring them in line with where we think they should finally sit.

I can say the same.