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Heinrich Jagerblitzen
D3LTA FORC3
1403
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Posted - 2014.01.16 08:59:00 -
[61] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:The elimination of tanks in ambush pub matches. Or at the very least a tank free version of the ambush mode available to players to choose.
Nah, vehicles and OB's in ambush just need to GTFO entirely. There's no need for them whatsoever. Ambush is the simplest of game modes, the most accessible to new players coming from other games with Team DM, and Ambush should provide an initial comfort level and familiarity that eases new players into the game without overwhelming them. There's no need to split Ambush either, PCU already makes matchmaking difficult, and there's other game modes that involve all the bells and whistles. Besides, many veterans enjoy the simple pleasure of pure infantry combat, there needs to be a place where they can experience this as well.
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Heinrich Jagerblitzen
D3LTA FORC3
1403
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Posted - 2014.01.16 09:02:00 -
[62] - Quote
Shion Typhon wrote: This "waves" design principle is absolutely 1000% the wrong approach, just think about how it works, if you can't see the gameplay problem of surges of invulnerability I think you should stop designing games.
Saberwing isn't even the one designing the game, first of all. You're throwing your disrespect at a community manager who's trying to help. Secondly - you might try taking a moment to share a compelling argument instead of simply acting indignant.
I'm listening. |
ChromeBreaker
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
1504
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Posted - 2014.01.16 09:11:00 -
[63] - Quote
Please see signature below....
Seriously tho, bump up the cost of tanks (DS and LAV's are fine), give web grenades/mines, increase swarm range, % dmg bonus to plasma cannons to vehicles. Increase mine dmg but make the detector more obvious, area denial.
Then its just a learning experiance lol, wait for hardeners to finish and pummel (a vehicle weakspot...)
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:Kevall Longstride wrote:The elimination of tanks in ambush pub matches. Or at the very least a tank free version of the ambush mode available to players to choose. Nah, vehicles and OB's in ambush just need to GTFO entirely. There's no need for them whatsoever. Ambush is the simplest of game modes, the most accessible to new players coming from other games with Team DM, and Ambush should provide an initial comfort level and familiarity that eases new players into the game without overwhelming them. There's no need to split Ambush either, PCU already makes matchmaking difficult, and there's other game modes that involve all the bells and whistles. Besides, many veterans enjoy the simple pleasure of pure infantry combat, there needs to be a place where they can experience this as well.
Id rather a choice of no tanks, then just saying to tankers "no ambush for you!!"... maybe when we get bigger maps
The answer is "ForgeGun"... doesnt matter what the question is...
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Amarrgheddon
Warcaste
93
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Posted - 2014.01.16 09:17:00 -
[64] - Quote
Eltra Ardell wrote:Learn to spell before you scold others.
Spelling is easy. Tablets do what they want. Editing during a rant is infuriating. |
Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens League of Infamy
313
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Posted - 2014.01.16 09:51:00 -
[65] - Quote
Saberwing, if you see this, remember that big fat guy that was all "fix tanks!" in EVE Vegas and was concerned that 1.7 would make Tanks worse? Well, that was me! Yup, you got to see who the real Joseph is! In all things, I am happy with how Tanks are now.
Please thank the design team for making Tanks control feel smooth and elegant. They handle so damn nice now. I am also not getting stuck on stuff so if the poopoo hits the fan, I can GTFO and live to fight another day. A few things probably need to change (Militia Tanks should probably be made weaker as they are so much free power, certain AV weaponry needs to have a damage increase) but the two of the three most important things have already happened. Tank controlling is smooth and bumps in the road don't cause Shields to just explode. Module Wheel is still finicky though but it is less important now that there aren't 5 modules to use at a time.
Thanks for being a good ambassador between us jerks on the forums and the developers.
Now that my apple polishing is out of the way, I will address one of the things that seem to be talked about: Balancing Tanks around price is a bad idea. I have 100 million isk. I always called in a Tank when my Tank was 700k and I always call in a Tank now that it is 240ish. Lil' Johnny with his 3 million isk but his 4 million SP couldn't possible afford that. Having the cash to call in Tanks has very little to do with skill. Sure, if you are more skilled you will lose less Tanks and be more cash efficient but if you can't afford to learn, you can't afford to play.
Be well. -Joseph |
jerrmy12 kahoalii
The Phoenix Federation
386
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Posted - 2014.01.16 10:00:00 -
[66] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Saberwing, if you see this, remember that big fat guy that was all "fix tanks!" in EVE Vegas and was concerned that 1.7 would make Tanks worse? Well, that was me! Yup, you got to see who the real Joseph is! In all things, I am happy with how Tanks are now.
Please thank the design team for making Tanks control feel smooth and elegant. They handle so damn nice now. I am also not getting stuck on stuff so if the poopoo hits the fan, I can GTFO and live to fight another day. A few things probably need to change (Militia Tanks should probably be made weaker as they are so much free power, certain AV weaponry needs to have a damage increase) but the two of the three most important things have already happened. Tank controlling is smooth and bumps in the road don't cause Shields to just explode. Module Wheel is still finicky though but it is less important now that there aren't 5 modules to use at a time.
Thanks for being a good ambassador between us jerks on the forums and the developers.
Now that my apple polishing is out of the way, I will address one of the things that seem to be talked about: Balancing Tanks around price is a bad idea. I have 100 million isk. I always called in a Tank when my Tank was 700k and I always call in a Tank now that it is 240ish. Lil' Johnny with his 3 million isk but his 4 million SP couldn't possible afford that. Having the cash to call in Tanks has very little to do with skill. Sure, if you are more skilled you will lose less Tanks and be more cash efficient but if you can't afford to learn, you can't afford to play.
Be well. -Joseph Madrugar turn a bit too slow and the gunlogi needs a very slight speed buff and the dropships need more climbingmspeed
Closed beta vet
I use a tablet so beware of typos
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
4644
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Posted - 2014.01.16 10:35:00 -
[67] - Quote
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:Kevall Longstride wrote:The elimination of tanks in ambush pub matches. Or at the very least a tank free version of the ambush mode available to players to choose. Nah, vehicles and OB's in ambush just need to GTFO entirely. There's no need for them whatsoever. Ambush is the simplest of game modes, the most accessible to new players coming from other games with Team DM, and Ambush should provide an initial comfort level and familiarity that eases new players into the game without overwhelming them. There's no need to split Ambush either, PCU already makes matchmaking difficult, and there's other game modes that involve all the bells and whistles. Besides, many veterans enjoy the simple pleasure of pure infantry combat, there needs to be a place where they can experience this as well.
Can agree to this. If anything they need to reduce the vehicle quota for Ambush since it is, in fact, higher than the other game modes as I describe here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1726831#post1726831
And while it is anecdotal evidence.....: http://i.imgur.com/h8aiKt3.jpg
Useful Links
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
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Jacques Cayton II
Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention
540
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Posted - 2014.01.16 10:46:00 -
[68] - Quote
X7 lion wrote:Prius Vecht wrote:
b) They are too fast. Faster than infantry is no problem but right now they're sportscar fast.
c) You can't cripple them. Vehicles with less than half of its total health should be moving at 1/4 of normal speed.
d) The enter/exit animation is a glitch. lets do away with teleporting in and out of vehicles and add actual animations that people cant take advantage of in a gunfight or to abandon a tank about to explode. Especially mr pop-out-in-an-instant Heavy in his LAV.
e) The modules repair way too fast. going from crippled to full health in a split second? No Way. The increase should be gradual.
f) Too many AV weapons are crap. The plasma cannon has a silly firing arc and doesn't do nearly enough damage for a weapon that reloads after every shot. Prox mines dont do enough damage (they should start @ 2000 per) and every vehicle has a mine detector. Shouldnt that be a module? REs should stick to tanks.
g) You can recall them in an instant. No vehicle should be recalled if its damaged and they should have to wait on the RDV just like when theyre dropped off. No teleporting. Recalling cant be an exploit to get your tank out of harm's way when things go badly.
h) AV was tuned badly. Swarms were taken down too much and AV grenades were too. Forges are the direct counter to vehicles and the hits should be devastating to them. Reduce grenade spam by making people equip grenades and then throw them with R1.
just for the record a modern tank max speed is about 65 km/h & these are future tanks so thats just abit of bitching with out a solution offered, maybe change up the way the move and are controlled. plasma cannon isnt av its anti material "good for dealing with groups of peope" (if it wasnt a broken pile of arse) you cant recall damaged vehicles but you a few hundred hp is more then a drop suit witch over a surface area of a tank is recoverable. swarms distance was nerf'd to make them a defense weapon, as apossed to i sit far away from you and fire i win tracking missile at you. tank pricing may need to be looked at but most importantly ITS A TANK ITS NOT MENT TO BE KILLED BY ONE GUY *cough* unless its a **** tank and good av but ya know.... 1 the us main battle tank m1 Abrahams only runs for 4 hours roughly in full performance so does that mean these future tanks should stop after a set time based on performance based on your idea it would be yes but it's a game and if you make something fast and hard hitting with a god mode it's op. Imagine a heavy with these abilities and realize how dumb you just sounded. 2 plc is anti material that's correct but the forge gun is also anti material so that's invalid 3 one guy with a javelin can take down any tank. Swarms = javelin. Yes javelin teams consist of two guys but that's for ammo purposes. So technically one guy can take down a tank oh also their's c4. You ever see 3 pounds of c4 go off? It's a big blast.
We fight for the future of the State not our
personal goals
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
5171
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Posted - 2014.01.16 10:54:00 -
[69] - Quote
Just for the record, making comparisons to real life or starting an argument with "this is the future so . . ." really doesn't hold much weight. In real life, things are designed to be over powered, why wouldn't they if they could? It's not like you have to listen to the enemy on forums QQing about your tanks and demanding them get nerfed.
This is a game, but it is not a simulator. There needs to be a balance of powers.
ARC Commander
CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star. EoN.
1665
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Posted - 2014.01.16 10:58:00 -
[70] - Quote
Justicar Karnellia wrote:If I recall correctly, they already acknowledged there is a problem and will fix it - the "when" will be the interesting part. some of the solutions are so basic they could be hotfixed really - and they do have a history of hotfixing out of patch cycles... the TAC AR comes to mind... There is a problem, and it's infantry wanting vehicles to be useless and/or removed from the game.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star. EoN.
1665
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Posted - 2014.01.16 11:01:00 -
[71] - Quote
Prius Vecht wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Prius Vecht wrote:Only the most tanker homer guys and lovers of 'I win' buttons can defend the current state of tank dominance. CCP u guys are apparently looking at the metrics and are aware of the problems. What vehicle issues are you looking to resolve in 1.8?
the vehicle issues as I see them are:
a) Tanks dont cost nearly enough compared to their raw power. A tank should be 3x the cost of a proto suit if its going to be anywhere near as powerful as they are now.
Probably true, I like that I can lose one and not go negative for the next 6 matches. I'd up the price but not to the insane levels it was at before.
b) They are too fast. Faster than infantry is no problem but right now they're sportscar fast.
Going to disagree on this one, I think they're sufficiently fast considering some of the dowsides. For example Caldari HAVs are significantly slower than Armor, and Armor HAVs have a ****** ass turning radius.
c) You can't cripple them. Vehicles with less than half of its total health should be moving at 1/4 of normal speed.
I'd be ok with something like this, but a 75% reduction to speed is excessive. I think it would be much better to give infantry the means to forcefully slow a tank down, but not have it tied to total damage.
d) The enter/exit animation is a glitch. lets do away with teleporting in and out of vehicles and add actual animations that people cant take advantage of in a gunfight or to abandon a tank about to explode. Especially mr pop-out-in-an-instant Heavy in his LAV.
Who gives a **** if you kill the pilot or not? I always go down with my tank unless I know I can hop out and finish off an enemy tank on foot. Destroying the tank is sufficient though, you've removed the immediate threat.
e) The modules repair way too fast. going from crippled to full health in a split second? No Way. The increase should be gradual.
You must be referring to Shield Boosters. Remember that shield boosters can only be used once in a while due to large cooldowns, and that the slow regeneration of an armor repairer is actually better in terms of total HP regenerated in the long run.
f) Too many AV weapons are crap. The plasma cannon has a silly firing arc and doesn't do nearly enough damage for a weapon that reloads after every shot. Prox mines dont do enough damage (they should start @ 2000 per) and every vehicle has a mine detector. Shouldnt that be a module? REs should stick to tanks.
Plasma Cannon needs a lot of work. Swarm Damage is fine but give it some more range. Forges are still highly effective with proper positioning. Remotes do stick to tanks as well as any other vehicle. AVers need to be less focused on asking for more damage, and more focused on asking for more tools to assist in vehicle destruction. Webifiers would be a good start.
g) You can recall them in an instant. No vehicle should be recalled if its damaged and they should have to wait on the RDV just like when theyre dropped off. No teleporting. Recalling cant be an exploit to get your tank out of harm's way when things go badly.
You can't recall a vehicle that is critically damage (on fire). Also in many cases I will fit a shield HAV with armor plates as part of a buffer, but with no way to repair it. Should I be penalized if I want to switch turrets, solely because my fit chooses to use armor that can't be repaired normally? The No-Recall if a vehicle has any damage is just not a good idea. I'm find with critical damage, but ANY damage? No.
As for an RDV coming to actually pick the vehicle up? That's reasonable.
h) AV was tuned badly. Swarms were taken down too much and AV grenades were too. Forges are the direct counter to vehicles and the hits should be devastating to them. Reduce grenade spam by making people equip grenades and then throw them with R1.
AV Grenades were out of control before, you could easily solo a tank using them. Swarm damage is much more reasonable now, but the range nerf should be reduced. Forge guns are devastating, especially Assault Forges. Use elevation! I **** my pants when I feel an assault forge hitting me from up high.
How much did tanks cost before? forgive me i'm not a tanker. OAN: the issues with instant exit/entering should be obvious. Easily one of the most abused mechanics in the game. Webs would be nice, but the AV that its in the game has to work first. Plasma Launcher/Prox Mines are both crap. The top turrets of all variants used to cost almost a million ISK each. Made a really good tank cost 1.2mil ISK at the very least. How would you like to lose out on that much ISK each death?
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
3530
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Posted - 2014.01.16 11:17:00 -
[72] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote: There is a problem, and it's infantry wanting vehicles to be useless and/or removed from the game.
Has anyone here ever said that they want vehicles removed and/or useless?
Creator of The AV Registry
The Pilot's Whipin' Boy // DJINN Lukeoplast's alleged sock
FORGE MASTER RACE
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star. EoN.
1665
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Posted - 2014.01.16 11:18:00 -
[73] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:Loki Patera wrote:Got a problem with tanks? Call in a missile or railgun tank. Problem solved. Got a problem with infantry? Get a rifle and some skills. Problem solved. Or, be a little FotM ***** and get a splashy Railgun or Missile Turret and 3000+ HP with instant reppers and outrun even the fastest Scout. (******* scrubs.) You know, not everybody wants to be an infantryman, running around like a chicken without a head, looking for the next kill, not even counting on the next guy to hack the objective, because it seems like most people that complain about individual encounters with tanks only play ambush, and nothing else. We don't care about the status quo infantry has for this game, which is the hope that it will become 100% infantry.
Suck it up and deal with it, or find another game to play. We can't be reasonable with you.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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Monkey MAC
Lost Millennium
1586
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Posted - 2014.01.16 11:34:00 -
[74] - Quote
Shion Typhon wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:
General consensus between ourselves and the CPM appears to be that - Vehicles have taken a step in the right direction
Really? Seriously? This "waves" design principle is absolutely 1000% the wrong approach, just think about how it works, if you can't see the gameplay problem of surges of invulnerability I think you should stop designing games.
Who said invulnerability? That's the point, the current version of the waves of opportunity is a step in the right direction, it just means the waves need to become more of an oppurtunity.
And less of death
Tanks 514
I told you, I bloody well told you.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
2067
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Posted - 2014.01.16 11:36:00 -
[75] - Quote
Did any 1 even had a read about my post? Or do we want to keep going on with the current meta? The issue is not that AV doesnt do enough damage. The problem is that they cant apply their damage properly due to the high mobility on vehicles. Allow passangers to use all weapons/equipment and you change the whole AV mechanics without changing stats on vehicles nor AV.
Just have a look at what we have: -LAV's cant even be destroyed with a proto assault forgegun. They usually surive with a tiny bit of HP which means you have to chase them which is as AV infantry next to impossible (except its open ground and you get 2 swarms off)
-dropships (assaults) are very quick and swarms do less damage against them. A proper fitted incubus with passive tank will require at least 3 proto forgegun hits in a row to take it down. Plus it can outrun swarms with a afterburner.
-tanks can soak up quite alot of damage when a hardener is running. knowing that they can still drive off very quickly leaving the AV infantry behind without a chance to finish him. What usually follows is that he hides for like 10 secs and has full HP again. Consistant damage application is needed otherwise you dont even need to shot it.
So knowing that you could combine the mobility of a dropship+LAV to keep chasing a tank. While the passanger can fire his AV weapon from the passanger seat. This would require at least 2 people to work together (driver and AV) and tankers cant say that they get "soloed".
I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
3530
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Posted - 2014.01.16 11:38:00 -
[76] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote: You know, not everybody wants to be an infantryman, running around like a chicken without a head, looking for the next kill, not even counting on the next guy to hack the objective, because it seems like most people that complain about individual encounters with tanks only play ambush, and nothing else. We don't care about the status quo infantry has for this game, which is the hope that it will become 100% infantry. I haven't played Ambush in the past 6 months. Your argument (or lack thereof) is invalid.
People who complain about individual counters complain about them because it only takes one individual to pilot a tank, making AV ineffective at AV; and making the best counter another tank.
Which brings me to my 3rd point. Not everyone wants to be a tanker, driving around in an "ez-mode" steel box, just to hunt down other tanks, because it seems like most people who think they should be better at AV because they are in a tank only play Skirmish, nothing else.
Nobody cares about the status quo pilots have for this game, which is the hope that AV is removed or requires a ridiculous amount of people to destroy a tank.
Spkr4theDead wrote: Suck it up and deal with it, or find another game to play. We can't be reasonable with you.
That's hilarious coming from you. I thought it was funny hearing Flix Keptix say that.
Now all we need is your boyfriend Tankahiro to say this and I'll finally be able to bring about my "Red Star Conspiracy"
Creator of The AV Registry
The Pilot's Whipin' Boy // DJINN Lukeoplast's alleged sock
FORGE MASTER RACE
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Monkey MAC
Lost Millennium
1586
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Posted - 2014.01.16 11:42:00 -
[77] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Rynoceros wrote:Loki Patera wrote:Got a problem with tanks? Call in a missile or railgun tank. Problem solved. Got a problem with infantry? Get a rifle and some skills. Problem solved. Or, be a little FotM ***** and get a splashy Railgun or Missile Turret and 3000+ HP with instant reppers and outrun even the fastest Scout. (******* scrubs.) You know, not everybody wants to be an infantryman, running around like a chicken without a head, looking for the next kill, not even counting on the next guy to hack the objective, because it seems like most people that complain about individual encounters with tanks only play ambush, and nothing else. We don't care about the status quo infantry has for this game, which is the hope that it will become 100% infantry. Suck it up and deal with it, or find another game to play. We can't be reasonable with you.
You can't be reasonable with us? You have a vehicle which is no more expensive than my suit, (which is a good thing), has 1000s of EHP, is invunerable to all but SPECALIST infantry weapons, is highly mobile across multiple terrain types and comes with a weapon 100s of times better than that off infantry, yet we are unreasonable when we think it fair that AV should suppress/destroy a tank with a similar effort to the tanker.
Please, for the love of God, why don't you play a role where you don't kill people, you will be much less upset when you can't do it.
Tanks 514
I told you, I bloody well told you.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
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Obodiah Garro
Tech Guard RISE of LEGION
519
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Posted - 2014.01.16 11:57:00 -
[78] - Quote
all of the OPs points are spot on, especially fond of the 1/4 speed at 1/4 damage right now tanks are just too damn fast.
Also return the swarm launcher to pre hyper nerf levels, **** boost it beyond what it was before the nerf Dust is a joke atm. |
Shion Typhon
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
368
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Posted - 2014.01.16 11:58:00 -
[79] - Quote
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:Shion Typhon wrote: This "waves" design principle is absolutely 1000% the wrong approach, just think about how it works, if you can't see the gameplay problem of surges of invulnerability I think you should stop designing games.
Saberwing isn't even the one designing the game, first of all. You're throwing your disrespect at a community manager who's trying to help. Secondly - you might try taking a moment to share a compelling argument instead of simply acting indignant. I'm listening.
To make a very long argument very short it essentially boils down to this. Where the main point of player interaction occurs, "the fight", the person with the invulnerability is the controller. Its like any other get-out-of-jail-free card type ability in games, such as invisibility or super speed.
So when you fight, the tanker is not required to engage skill, only press a button, the choice for the AVer isn't to engage his skill, its to hide until the invulnerability wears off. So basically at the peak point where you want the players testing themselves against one another, the natural strategy is to disengage rather than fight. Both sides get less out of the combat than they otherwise would.
There's more to it than that re the binary tanking model vs an attrition model but that's one of the big elements.
Notice how in TF2 they didn't give the invincibility to the Heavy, they gave it to the medic instead who applies it to the heavy and is vulnerable himself? Think about the different dynamic that creates in the actual combat itself.
They should have gone down the route (simplistically speaking) giving vehicles 1/100 the regen and 10x the HP. |
Spkr4theDead
Red Star. EoN.
1665
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Posted - 2014.01.16 12:20:00 -
[80] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Rynoceros wrote:Loki Patera wrote:Got a problem with tanks? Call in a missile or railgun tank. Problem solved. Got a problem with infantry? Get a rifle and some skills. Problem solved. Or, be a little FotM ***** and get a splashy Railgun or Missile Turret and 3000+ HP with instant reppers and outrun even the fastest Scout. (******* scrubs.) You know, not everybody wants to be an infantryman, running around like a chicken without a head, looking for the next kill, not even counting on the next guy to hack the objective, because it seems like most people that complain about individual encounters with tanks only play ambush, and nothing else. We don't care about the status quo infantry has for this game, which is the hope that it will become 100% infantry. Suck it up and deal with it, or find another game to play. We can't be reasonable with you. You can't be reasonable with us? You have a vehicle which is no more expensive than my suit, (which is a good thing), has 1000s of EHP, is invunerable to all but SPECALIST infantry weapons, is highly mobile across multiple terrain types and comes with a weapon 100s of times better than that off infantry, yet we are unreasonable when we think it fair that AV should suppress/destroy a tank with a similar effort to the tanker. Please, for the love of God, why don't you play a role where you don't kill people, you will be much less upset when you can't do it. Have you done the math to put a tank together?
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star. EoN.
1665
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Posted - 2014.01.16 12:21:00 -
[81] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote: You know, not everybody wants to be an infantryman, running around like a chicken without a head, looking for the next kill, not even counting on the next guy to hack the objective, because it seems like most people that complain about individual encounters with tanks only play ambush, and nothing else. We don't care about the status quo infantry has for this game, which is the hope that it will become 100% infantry. I haven't played Ambush in the past 6 months. Your argument (or lack thereof) is invalid.
People who complain about individual counters complain about them because it only takes one individual to pilot a tank, making AV ineffective at AV; and making the best counter another tank. Which brings me to my 3rd point. Not everyone wants to be a tanker, driving around in an "ez-mode" steel box, just to hunt down other tanks, because it seems like most people who think they should be better at AV because they are in a tank only play Skirmish, nothing else. Nobody cares about the status quo pilots have for this game, which is the hope that AV is removed or requires a ridiculous amount of people to destroy a tank. Spkr4theDead wrote: Suck it up and deal with it, or find another game to play. We can't be reasonable with you.
That's hilarious coming from you. I thought it was funny hearing Flix Keptix say that. Now all we need is your boyfriend Tankahiro to say this and I'll finally be able to bring about my "Red Star Conspiracy" I thought having an endocrine disease that's ruining my life and causing me to have crappy sleep patterns, such as being awake now was bad, but damn, you're on the forums 24/7, aren't you.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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843-BANE
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
307
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Posted - 2014.01.16 12:33:00 -
[82] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Atiim wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote: You know, not everybody wants to be an infantryman, running around like a chicken without a head, looking for the next kill, not even counting on the next guy to hack the objective, because it seems like most people that complain about individual encounters with tanks only play ambush, and nothing else. We don't care about the status quo infantry has for this game, which is the hope that it will become 100% infantry. I haven't played Ambush in the past 6 months. Your argument (or lack thereof) is invalid.
People who complain about individual counters complain about them because it only takes one individual to pilot a tank, making AV ineffective at AV; and making the best counter another tank. Which brings me to my 3rd point. Not everyone wants to be a tanker, driving around in an "ez-mode" steel box, just to hunt down other tanks, because it seems like most people who think they should be better at AV because they are in a tank only play Skirmish, nothing else. Nobody cares about the status quo pilots have for this game, which is the hope that AV is removed or requires a ridiculous amount of people to destroy a tank. Spkr4theDead wrote: Suck it up and deal with it, or find another game to play. We can't be reasonable with you.
That's hilarious coming from you. I thought it was funny hearing Flix Keptix say that. Now all we need is your boyfriend Tankahiro to say this and I'll finally be able to bring about my "Red Star Conspiracy" I thought having an endocrine disease that's ruining my life and causing me to have crappy sleep patterns, such as being awake now was bad, but damn, you're on the forums 24/7, aren't you.
Why would you bring real life health problems into Dust forums? Are you looking for pity or trying to guilt trip him?
Director // Ranking Officer // BurgezzE.T.F
Patron of War | GPæGPìGPî
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Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
466
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Posted - 2014.01.16 12:41:00 -
[83] - Quote
Prius Vecht wrote:Only the most tanker homer guys and lovers of 'I win' buttons can defend the current state of tank dominance. CCP u guys are apparently looking at the metrics and are aware of the problems. What vehicle issues are you looking to resolve in 1.8?
the vehicle issues as I see them are:
a) Tanks dont cost nearly enough compared to their raw power. A tank should be 3x the cost of a proto suit if its going to be anywhere near as powerful as they are now.
b) They are too fast. Faster than infantry is no problem but right now they're sportscar fast.
c) You can't cripple them. Vehicles with less than half of its total health should be moving at 1/4 of normal speed.
d) The enter/exit animation is a glitch. lets do away with teleporting in and out of vehicles and add actual animations that people cant take advantage of in a gunfight or to abandon a tank about to explode. Especially mr pop-out-in-an-instant Heavy in his LAV.
e) The modules repair way too fast. going from crippled to full health in a split second? No Way. The increase should be gradual.
f) Too many AV weapons are crap. The plasma cannon has a silly firing arc and doesn't do nearly enough damage for a weapon that reloads after every shot. Prox mines dont do enough damage (they should start @ 2000 per) and every vehicle has a mine detector. Shouldnt that be a module? REs should stick to tanks.
g) You can recall them in an instant. No vehicle should be recalled if its damaged and they should have to wait on the RDV just like when theyre dropped off. No teleporting. Recalling cant be an exploit to get your tank out of harm's way when things go badly.
h) AV was tuned badly. Swarms were taken down too much and AV grenades were too. Forges are the direct counter to vehicles and the hits should be devastating to them. Reduce grenade spam by making people equip grenades and then throw them with R1.
Tanks should cost less than proto suits, that much is obvious. Why? Proto suits are NEVER supposed to be profitable, they're the "I wanna punch someone in the face" suits of the game, and the STD and ADV suits are the ones that should allow earning currency. Currently the tank population makes it so "You wanna pull out that PRO suit? Fine, but you're not gonna make a profit this round!" And frankly it's mostly Proto suit spammers who claim tanks are ruining the fields... STD and ADV users apparently have no issue with tanks cause they can still make profit if they run into one. AV on basic suits, or calling in your own tanks are more than adequate to take out other tanks..
Speed is only an issue if you're one of those idiots who runs after a tank and tries to kill it every engagement. The people who sit back and know how to deter tanks and deny huge areas of terrain to the tanks are a lot smarter than the dirt runners.
AV weaponry does need to be looked at, but as long as there is an abundance of ways to pursue AV, the cheaper and easier ways should always be weaker, while the specialized ways, such as Forge guns should be the strongest ranged AV ground units have.
The vehicle recall has always been in development and an RDV was always planned to pick the vehicle up, but current pathing disallows reliable pickups as of yet... or something of that matter.
AV grenades and Swarms can be used by the same person at the same time. Weaponry that does the aiming for you should obviously have reduced power.
If you can read this, it means you are reading.
Unless you are skimming
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2185
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Posted - 2014.01.16 13:26:00 -
[84] - Quote
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Stuff...
As the author of the Swarm Launcher Guide, and a long time participant in the Vehicle/AV debate, as well as a current Forge Gun user, I totally agree with your assessment.
While balance seems way off, the foundation of the Vehicle/AV system seems more solid in 1.7. Some small tweaks would make a big difference in the balance. I think the Swarm Launcher and AV Grenades getting over nerfed is probably the biggest factor. Most people run Medium Frame suits, and they do not have access to effective AV weapons any more.
The Forge Gun seems to be fairly well balanced right now, so I think we should use it as the bench mark when balancing other AV weapons. The effectiveness of Swarms Launchers need to approach the current effectiveness of Forge Guns more closely. Of course these weapons are very different so you canGÇÖt compare them on DPS alone. So I favour a small buff to Swarm Launchers, and then an assessment of the impact of that buff before considering a second small adjustment.
I have been thinking: +30 Damage per missel = 250 Damage (Down from 330 in 1.6) +25m range = 200m (Down from 400 in 1.6)
The most fun I had with Swarm Launchers was in 1.0 and 1.1 having duels with blaster tanks from within their range where I was using cover to avoid their fire and then popping out at unexpected places and trying to get a shot off and get back behind cover before getting riddled by the Blaster. That was before the Swarm Launcher was buffed twice and became completely overpowered.
I think the range nerf will actually make the Swarm Launcher more fun once they are made a bit more effective. The lock-on time made the challenge of using it to survive while getting the lock, rather than aiming skill, and getting the lock from a sniper nest was not too much of a challenge.
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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poison Diego
NECROM0NGERS The CORVOS
287
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Posted - 2014.01.16 13:26:00 -
[85] - Quote
the tanks speed has been crippled enough. the base speed is definitely not hard to deal with and the nitrus is useless unless its complex. its not hard to take out tanks, use teamwork and tanks wont stand for long. railguns are broken and everyone knows it, nerf damage by 25% and RoF by 15% and everyone is happy
SUCK ON MY BIG BLACK BASIC BLASTER
WELCOME TO WORLDofTANKz514
put your seatbelts on, ITs GONNA BE A BUMPY RIDE!!
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Reiki Jubo
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
241
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Posted - 2014.01.16 13:35:00 -
[86] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote: Webs would be nice, but the AV that its in the game has to work first. Plasma Launcher/Prox Mines are both crap. The top turrets of all variants used to cost almost a million ISK each. Made a really good tank cost 1.2mil ISK at the very least. How would you like to lose out on that much ISK each death?[/quote]
agree that PL and PMs need heavy tuning, but ur complaining about tank cost is irrelevant. In this game u pay for items with killing power/resistance and the tank is at the top of the food chain in both regards. Their cost should be significant higher than any protosuit...if u dont like that kindly refer to eves 'dont fly what you cant afford to lose' philosophy. |
Bones McGavins
TacoCat Industries
411
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Posted - 2014.01.16 13:49:00 -
[87] - Quote
Anyone who simply says "use teamwork" has clearly never encountered tankers doing the same. A squad with a couple tankers will roll the squad with none. If you need to dedicate half your squad to AV to take out one tank, that tanker now has squadmates free to 2:1 your non AV then mop up the AV.
I kill a lot of idiots with my pistol when AV but any decent players would destroy me due to my lack of range. And even the idiots usually distract me long enough for the tanks to escape.
Also, chasing off tanks all day isn't fun. Sorry but I want kills. Even WP won't make it much better unless the WP is significant enough to earn me a solo orbita like infantry play would.
Finally I have hopped in militia tanks to see what I'm up against. I literally started laughing my ass off at how useless swarms are. With harderner on I literally outrepped and off I could just ignore them. Only other tanks have ever killed me while my blaster destroys AV. And I'm a complete skill less noob in a tank. |
poison Diego
NECROM0NGERS The CORVOS
287
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Posted - 2014.01.16 14:03:00 -
[88] - Quote
Bones McGavins wrote:Anyone who simply says "use teamwork" has clearly never encountered tankers doing the same. A squad with a couple tankers will roll the squad with none. If you need to dedicate half your squad to AV to take out one tank, that tanker now has squadmates free to 2:1 your non AV then mop up the AV.
I kill a lot of idiots with my pistol when AV but any decent players would destroy me due to my lack of range. And even the idiots usually distract me long enough for the tanks to escape.
Also, chasing off tanks all day isn't fun. Sorry but I want kills. Even WP won't make it much better unless the WP is significant enough to earn me a solo orbita like infantry play would.
Finally I have hopped in militia tanks to see what I'm up against. I literally started laughing my ass off at how useless swarms are. With harderner on I literally outrepped and off I could just ignore them. Only other tanks have ever killed me while my blaster destroys AV. And I'm a complete skill less noob in a tank.
thats why we want prize raised by at least 50% YES MILITIA TO!!! then if you take out a tank he wont be so eager to call in another one ,
SUCK ON MY BIG BLACK BASIC BLASTER
WELCOME TO WORLDofTANKz514
put your seatbelts on, ITs GONNA BE A BUMPY RIDE!!
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Prius Vecht
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
199
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Posted - 2014.01.16 14:03:00 -
[89] - Quote
I appreciate all the well thought out responses from posters and CPM Jagerblitzen, I tried to list my issues under the premise that any counters would have to come from mechanics in the game. I would love, webifiers but its my opinion that the current tank issue is as bad as any we've seen previously a la early Swarms, The TAC AR and Flaylock......IMO it needs a hotfix and so I tried to use available gameplay rather than features that can be added in at a later date.
The few responses defending tank cost seem odd, I would ask those people if u first thought before typing or were you simply defending a mechanic that is FAR into your favor? You spend ISK for value in this game...as such, I cant think of anything that should be more expensive in the marketplace at the moment than the HAV.
I also scratched my head regarding the mine detectors that are included into every vehicle. No other weapon system in this game has any kind of alert. Area Denial is fine but vehicles have the option to scan, so theres ur detector right there. Adding a beeping sound is overkill, want a detector? spend the ISK/CPU/PG on a module.
The suggestions about allowing mercs to fire from LAVs and dropships was also very good...and WP for damage to vehicles really could be a game changer.
My last point would be regarding the Plasma Launcher. CPM Jagerblitzen detailed the skill/damage discrepancy perfectly. I think CCP should scrap the firing arc and utilize the same straight-line ADS that the Forge has. With that, I think that its a no brainer that the damage should also increase. |
TheWee BabySeamus
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
86
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Posted - 2014.01.16 14:13:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Really digging Hans' post further above. I refrained from commenting previously because I wanted to discuss things through with CPM members. I'll make sure the relevant Design guys see this thread.
General consensus between ourselves and the CPM appears to be that - Vehicles have taken a step in the right direction but we will be looking to make some additional adjustments to bring them in line with where we think they should finally sit. Bring Av back to what it was pre 1.7
Wee Baby Seamus-------------->DDB Director & #1 Sex chat operator
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