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jerrmy12 kahoalii
The Phoenix Federation
324
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Posted - 2014.01.11 05:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:Leonid Tybalt wrote:Atiim wrote:Aizen Intiki wrote:Reported for being a douche trying to troll people. I'm not even trolling. It's been over 6 months and I have yet to actually see a decent answer to the question at hand. Because it's stupid. A good tank costs a LOT more than a couple of av grenadea carried by one infantryman. They even tend to cost more than a proto heavy suit with a proto forge gun. Also, real world infantry rarely "solo kill" real world tanks. Then why should sci-fi infantry "solo kill" sci-fi tanks? because its a game, but my assault forge gun needs a buff
I use a tablet so beware of typos
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
6
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Posted - 2014.01.11 06:12:00 -
[32] - Quote
Personally, I think that vehicle kills are far too limited in Dust currently. Taking a look at tanks, you can only get a "catastrophic kill" currently. Introducing other ways of eliminating tanks and other vehicles as threats on the battlefield opens up more options for game balance around features. Other kills include Mobility Kill (Disable tank/vehicle propulsion, but the vehicle retains full use of its weapons), Firepower Kill (Disable offensive capabilities of a vehicle, even if one turret at a time), and maybe a visual kill? (Knocking out the Camera Drones that give vehicles their magic 3rd person view, forcing the operator into first person)
Use a mobility kill to keep a tank in one place, and either run it out of ammo, or disable its main gun, do the actual killing with demolition charges...
Should an infantry be able to solo a tank? Absolutely, provided the infantry is outfit to do basically just that...and as a tanker and true logi, infantry EHP needs buffed...Also, tanks are used as more than just mobile killing machines, they should also be looked at as potential mobile cover...and all the other applications tanks where designed for...I want to be able to deploy an HAV Frame with ONLY DEFENSIVE/SUPPORT MODS ON IT |
Marad''er
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
145
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Posted - 2014.01.11 06:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
I think so provided the tanks themselves are solo.
The moment it takes more than 1 person to down 1 person, it is OP due to spamability. Regardless of the cost
GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢
Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà
Forum Warrior LV. 4 | Warframe is awesome! | PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
3312
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Posted - 2014.01.11 07:02:00 -
[34] - Quote
Leonid Tybalt wrote:
Because it's stupid.
A good tank costs a LOT more than a couple of av grenadea carried by one infantryman. They even tend to cost more than a proto heavy suit with a proto forge gun.
Also, real world infantry rarely "solo kill" real world tanks. Then why should sci-fi infantry "solo kill" sci-fi tanks?
Because it's stupid? So your saying that I should be able to pull 3-6 people out of combat just by driving a tank? isn't that buying a WIN button if I field enough of them then?
And how many times are you likely to die in your AV fit? 2-4 times. And at 150-215k a pop, an AVer can easily match the price of a good tank. ~ Lets not go there.
This isn't real life, this is a video game. And in real life a solo infantry man can OHK a tank ~ Lets not go there.
Look up the Javelin on YouTube and get back to me on that one. ~ Mkay?
And while we are bringing up real life facts, 1 = 1. Just saying.
CoD ----->
<----- WoT
Please AR and Tank scrubs, go to your respective games. Leave DUST alone!
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Jade Dragonis
GRIM MARCH
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
272
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Posted - 2014.01.11 07:02:00 -
[35] - Quote
you hit a tank in the right place and you can one shot a MAddy.....
Other than that team work does wonders. 3 of us took out 5 tanks in a match. (dropships didnt count)
Forged again? Your welcome.
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Soraya Xel
The Corporate Raiders
Top Men.
1052
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Posted - 2014.01.11 07:10:00 -
[36] - Quote
Marad''er wrote:I think so provided the tanks themselves are solo.
The moment it takes more than 1 person to down 1 person, it is OP due to spamability. Regardless of the cost
Exactly. Which is why I think they should introduce the MAV as a solo vehicle, and retune the HAV to require three users to gain the full effectiveness of it. So MAVs can replace the current solo tanker role, and the HAV, the unmatched superior on the battlefield, becomes a team effort to operate, and a team effort to take down.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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daishi mk03
BLACK-GUARD
Die Fremdenlegion
558
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Posted - 2014.01.11 07:16:00 -
[37] - Quote
There are many stupid / invalid arguments in here:
- a fully fitted tank with a tanker SP character should be invincible <- worst argument ever
A proto suit should also be killed by a MLT suit, if catched from behind. This is absolutely right. This is not WoW and characters which level up or sh!t, this is a shooter. You shoot stuff, stuff dies.
For the same reason tanks should pop to AV like balloons to needles. Don't talk about ISK costs, since a proto tanks is close to a proto logi suit right now. (maybe a factor of 2, but not like orders of magnitudes)
- it should take 3 people to reliable take out a tank
crap argument. this would mean calling in one tank, would change numbers on infantry ground to 15 vs 13 in your favor (or our tank steamrolls them)
How to fix tanks:
MLT / STD tanks should be taken out by a single MLT / STD remote explosive package.
MLT / STD tanks should be taken out by 3 MLT / STD swarm volleys. delete adv / proto swarms and give ppl SP back.
some tankers I met are stupid "i want to be invincible and have fun shooting other people" scums.
To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin.
The Scriptures,Book of Missions
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Sir Snugglz
Red Star.
EoN.
242
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Posted - 2014.01.11 07:23:00 -
[38] - Quote
light weapon (swarms) vs heavy attack vehicle......
swarms should be able to solo LAV....
LAV shouldnt be able to solo HAV...
therefore, swarms shouldnt solo HAV
Now, Heavy weapon (forge) vs HAV
Forges does lots of damage to HAV. it is possible to solo if skilled enough |
Jade Dragonis
GRIM MARCH
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
272
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Posted - 2014.01.11 07:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
Sir Snugglz wrote:light weapon (swarms) vs heavy attack vehicle......
swarms should be able to solo LAV....
LAV shouldnt be able to solo HAV...
therefore, swarms shouldnt solo HAV
Now, Heavy weapon (forge) vs HAV
Forges does lots of damage to HAV. it is possible to solo if skilled enough
Breach Forge up the backside will one shot a Maddy. It is possible. Just takes planning.
Forged again? Your welcome.
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution
Covert Intervention
1568
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Posted - 2014.01.11 07:32:00 -
[40] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Atiim wrote:Title is Self-Explanatory Stop lumping all tankers into the same category. It makes you look stupid. How am I lumping all tankers into a general category? When I said "Self Explanatory", I meant that the title of the thread is the actual question at hand, which does make it "Self Explanatory." Please, show me where I am "lumping all tankers into the same category".
In your signature.
There are no "scrub" tankers.
The only "tankers" I know have been around longer than you've been a forum troll.
Everyone else is a FOTM chaser in a tank.
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
3313
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Posted - 2014.01.11 07:37:00 -
[41] - Quote
Sir Snugglz wrote:light weapon (swarms) vs heavy attack vehicle......
swarms should be able to solo LAV....
LAV shouldnt be able to solo HAV...
therefore, swarms shouldnt solo HAV
Now, Heavy weapon (forge) vs HAV
Forges does lots of damage to HAV. it is possible to solo if skilled enough
Uhh. Have you seen a 20GJ Particle Cannon in action? I saw a guy rip a tanker's @$$ a new with it on an LAV.
And weapon strengths and weaknesses aren't classified by their weight (Sidearm/Light/Heavy). They are classified and balanced around factors such as Range, Damage Type, RPM, etc.
Saying that something shouldn't solo simply because of the fact that it is deemed Light and the opponent is deemed Heavy is idiotic at best.
If you truly agree that light shouldn't solo heavy, then I expect you to be the first one to like my OP when I make a thread calling for a Shotgun and Nova Knife nerf. As the Shotgun is a Light Weapon and the Nova Knife is a sidearm, so by your logic these two weapons need to be nerfed.
LAVs can and should solo HAVs. ~ See the 20GJ Particle Cannon
Additionally, if one AV weapon can solo HAVs yet another one can't, then why use anything other than that AV weapon? There is no good reason as to why something should be theoretically 100% better at something than another.
TL;DR? With that logic, Shotguns & Nova Knifes are OP.
CoD ----->
<----- WoT
Please AR and Tank 'scrubs', go to your respective games. Leave DUST alone!
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution
Covert Intervention
1569
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Posted - 2014.01.11 07:40:00 -
[42] - Quote
I like when people use the argument:
1 grunt = 1x
1 tank = 3x
12g+4t=24x
Well that makes sense until you realize that one really good tanker can take on 6 average tankers easy, so 1gt=18x
Then:
12g+4t = 15g+1gt
The balance of power depends on the skill of tankers involved. 6 tanks don't guarantee victory. 1 good tank does. Therefore, tanks require a lot of skill. Winning a battle requires vehicles, but it doesn't require tank spam. (Just took on 6 enemy tanks by myself. Killed 14. Lost 2)
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
3313
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Posted - 2014.01.11 07:45:00 -
[43] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:
In your signature.
There are no "scrub" tankers.
The only "tankers" I know have been around longer than you've been a forum troll.
Everyone else is a FOTM chaser in a tank.
The terms "AR Scrub" and "Tank Scrub" refer to the small group of radicals who want this game to be nothing but a CoD clone but simply in outer space (the "AR Scrubs") or the other small group of radicals who wants this game to be nothing but a Tank simulator (referred to as the "Tank Scrubs").
When I use terms such as "Tank Scrub" or "LOLTank Brigader", I am not referring to all tankers. Just the small group of people (you know who they are) who clearly want an imbalance between V/AV that favors vehicles ~ And vice versa with the "AR Scrubs" term.
Forum Troll? I guess not allowing the LOLTank Brigade to shovel bull$#!t down my throat is considered trolling then. 
But fine, I guess I'll edit my signature. Mkay?
CoD ----->
<----- WoT
Please AR and Tank 'scrubs', go to your respective games. Leave DUST alone!
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Denchlad 7
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
52
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Posted - 2014.01.11 08:09:00 -
[44] - Quote
Irony of it is is that most people seem to want to go back to 1.6 Tanks and AV. Hmm.
If you can't accept change, you will fail in this world.
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Eurydice Itzhak
Providence Guard
Templis CALSF
323
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Posted - 2014.01.11 08:56:00 -
[45] - Quote
Slim Winning wrote:Because most tankers suck at tactics and skill. Hence is why they're in the tank to begin with.
You don't here anyone saying "a starter dropsuit shouldn't be able to solo my prototype dropsuit."
Being outplayed is being outplayed. Only delusional tankers can't accept this. You can't simply spend your way to an easy button.
A starter dropsuit killed your proto dropsuit? I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but being awful ain't one. |
Snagman 313
Carbon 7
CRONOS.
263
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:00:00 -
[46] - Quote
Actually quite a constructive thread, good work keeping it in line Attim.
Just to throw my 2 pence in.
HAV's while tough are soloable but currently only really by dedicated AV'ers, yes someone with lower skills but good tactics or a lot of luck can manage it but to regularly do it you need a huge chunk of SP in the associated skills, not just weapon skills but PG and CPU skills to allow you to mount Complex dmg mods especially if you're using the FG on a heavy suit.
Now this was were I had an interesting conversation with a fellow the other day, lets just say I took out his state Gunnloggi in short order and I received a bit of mail over it.
Without going too much into it after the first couple of rude messages he mentioned that he had 14 mil SP invested in HAV skills and that no way I should have killed his tank. This got me thinking, now I'm not a hardcore player by any means but I have just over 17 mil SP and I'd say at least 14 mil in skills for my AV build maybe a bit more now I think about it. Regardless anyway here we have 2 players with similar SP one with a Shield HAV using a high end blaster turret designed for killing infantry and then the other with a Proto AFG and basic AV nades rigged for killing Tanks. Now I did have to use 1 and a bit mags to put him down as he managed to hit his shield booster as I finished off his shields and I had to start again but if he had simply used his mobility to run away or called in some infantry I would have been done and if I had been in a sqd and not running solo I might have not needed the second mag.
So technically speaking we both lacked some tactics but we can't always have it the way we want this is war and we must make do with what we have. Now I did finish this guy off solo but also because he was solo which happens rarely the thing that surprised me most what how much he was sure that in no way should a single AV'er present such a threat to HAVs.
It's quite a common view at the moment mostly by the FOTM guys I think. However I think that a person such as myself who has accumulated a fair bit of SP and then invested it and time in building a top heavy FG build specifically for busting vehicles should present a real threat to an equivalent level HAV and an extremely high threat to a low level mlt one. I certainly don't want a change back to the 1.6 level tanks, the was boring for me but I think there should be a bigger gap between mlt HAVs and proper ones.
Also a bit off topic but the run and hide from tanks argument only works in matches other than Ambush. It almost makes my blood boil to see this statement especially when referring to ambush when you get 4 plus HAVs rolling a convoy in a tiny open map and it takes the whole of the rest of the team to run AV to deal with them if you keep your 3 av to 1 HAV ratio, just for someone to say "Hey where's the rest of the enemy team?" and then you see a squad of infantry charging in better switch to my sidearm!!! oh there's a HAV!!! .......dead....... My bank balance can take it but then what are the Newberries supposed to do? We haven't got a Highsec like EVE.
Closed Beta AV veteran
I drink because I play Dust
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
1490
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:01:00 -
[47] - Quote
Denchlad 7 wrote:Irony of it is is that most people seem to want to go back to 1.6 Tanks and AV. Hmm.
Oh no. No.
Hell no.
Keep the beefier tanks.
Give back the 1.6 AV
then tweak until crispy on both sides. |
Eurydice Itzhak
Providence Guard
Templis CALSF
323
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:04:00 -
[48] - Quote
Snagman I won't quote you and make the thread huge but ambush needs to be removed from the game. It's a garbage game mode that doesnt even make sense lore wise. |
R F Gyro
Clones 4u
953
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:21:00 -
[49] - Quote
I wasn't expecting much from this thread, but I'm pleasantly surprised to see that reason seems to be returning to this debate. I've given likes to a bunch of posts here.
Quote:My personal favourite approach is for tanks to be fairly weak by default, but if there are three players in one then the tank owner can enable "crew mode" at which point the driver gets the front small turret, the gunner gets the large turret (and also a limited field of view) and the top gunner (commander) gets the external view but is the only one who can activate modules.
In "crew mode" the tank gets significant bonuses to EHP and speed, making it worth at least 3, probably 4 or 5, infantry. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1625276#post1625276
RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
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Broonfondle Majikthies
Dogs of War Gaming
Zero-Day
704
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:28:00 -
[50] - Quote
I solo tanks regularly
With basic gear
"...where Bylothgar the Ill-postured was made King of the People With No Name But Decent Footwear"
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Soraya Xel
The Corporate Raiders
Top Men.
1057
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:29:00 -
[51] - Quote
R F Gyro: If you look at my version, I think having it dual mode might be a bit unnecessarily complicated. But we have the same general idea. Though my thought is that HAVs should become crew-based vehicles, since MAVs and mechs are both expected, which either/or could fill the solo vehicle role.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Marad''er
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
150
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:34:00 -
[52] - Quote
Broonfondle Majikthies wrote:I solo tanks regularly
With basic gear
And I stomp on proto squads
With basic commando and melee only
GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢
Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà
Forum Warrior LV. 4 | Warframe is awesome! | PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
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Vulpes Dolosus
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
589
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:35:00 -
[53] - Quote
Because this is a team-based game.
Attackers need multiple roles to win, tanks can't hack objectives and even with the best tanks, concentrated AV threaten them.
Defender's need of teamwork should be obvious.
Tanks don't win matches (ambush aside), teams win matches. Tanks are just another piece on the chess board.
Dropship Specialist
Kills- Incubus: 4; Pythons: 1; Other DS: 28 Gêå1; Tanks: 27 Gêå2
1/1
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R F Gyro
Clones 4u
953
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:37:00 -
[54] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:R F Gyro: If you look at my version, I think having it dual mode might be a bit unnecessarily complicated. But we have the same general idea. Though my thought is that HAVs should become crew-based vehicles, since MAVs and mechs are both expected, which either/or could fill the solo vehicle role.
Yeah, that would work too. One would be harder for the game programmers, the other harder for the art department. I'd be happy for CCP to decide which to implement.
RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
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Summ Dude
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
96
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:39:00 -
[55] - Quote
Just thought I'd pop in real quick to say: Attim, I think this is a very good question to ask. And also, I can't help but notice that no one on the anti tank nerf side has actually answered it yet. I've seen a lot of random ideas given, and some anecdotes here and there, but really no solid logical definitive answer.
Anyway, I'm actually really liking the idea of HAVs requiring 3 people to run effectively, and then requiring 3 AVers to be destroyed. |
R F Gyro
Clones 4u
958
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:40:00 -
[56] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Because this is a team-based game.
Attackers need multiple roles to win, tanks can't hack objectives and even with the best tanks, concentrated AV threaten them.
Defender's need of teamwork should be obvious.
Tanks don't win matches (ambush aside), teams win matches. Tanks are just another piece on the chess board.
Not right now. Right now, tanks do win matches, and all you need for most skirmish is one of the tanks to fit a light gun seat so that it can ferry around a single infantry player for hacking.
Concentrated AV threatens individual tanks. Four AV players working as a team don't threaten 4 tanks working as a team, in any meaningful way.
RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
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Marad''er
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
150
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:41:00 -
[57] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Because this is a team-based game.
Attackers need multiple roles to win, tanks can't hack objectives and even with the best tanks, concentrated AV threaten them.
Defender's need of teamwork should be obvious.
Tanks don't win matches (ambush aside), teams win matches. Tanks are just another piece on the chess board.
You're right.
Tanks are like having queens on a chess board...
From an ambush perspective since that's mainly what I play
GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢
Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà
Forum Warrior LV. 4 | Warframe is awesome! | PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
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Soraya Xel
The Corporate Raiders
Top Men.
1059
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:41:00 -
[58] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Tanks are just another piece on the chess board.
Yeah. If on that chess board any pawn can upgrade to being a queen at any time, from any where. And the queen now has to be checkmated just to hold it in place, and it can only be killed by another queen.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Ghost Kaisar
Titans of Phoenix
Legacy Rising
1746
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:42:00 -
[59] - Quote
Here is my problem with the whole tank argument.
"I shouldn't be soloed, this thing is expensive and cost me a lot of SP"
Well guess what. My Minja scout is freaking expensive as well, and cost me a ton of SP. Doesn't stop that freaking Duvolle focused from scanning me. And it shouldn't.
Because the Duvolle focused is made to scan me. It cost SP and is hard to fit, and expensive. It's doing it's job.
Proto AV costs SP and is expensive. It shouldn't be the bane of tanks incarnate, but it should sure as hell scare one away.
Right now, Tanks laugh in the face of AV. AV needs to scare tanks. Not kill them, but firmly tell them "NO. GO PLAY SOMEWHERE ELSE". It should become a definate "Leave or Die" scenario. If you go, we won't have enough time to kill you. If you wanna stay here there is a good chance you will die. Your choice.
Dropsuits face this same issue as well. A good proto suit is strong, but not invincible. If you keep running into enemy fire, you will die. Not immediatly, but eventually. Even in Proto dropsuits, enemy fire creates the same "Leave or Die" scenario.
Why should tanks be any different with regards to AV?
Get over it. If you don't play to win in FW, then you're playing for Caldari. -Patrick57
Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
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R F Gyro
Clones 4u
958
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Posted - 2014.01.11 09:43:00 -
[60] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:Just thought I'd pop in real quick to say: Attim, I think this is a very good question to ask. And also, I can't help but notice that no one on the anti tank nerf side has actually answered it yet. I've seen a lot of random ideas given, and some anecdotes here and there, but really no solid logical definitive answer.
If you search back through the forums you'll see that people have been asking this question for at least 6 months. And no, there has never been a decent answer.
I am grateful to Atiim for keeping at it, and taking on all the hate and rage that resulted. I pretty much gave up months ago. He has stuck with it and it looks like he just might be finally getting somewhere.
RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
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