DUST Search - Why Shouldn't Tanks Be Soloed?

Skihids wrote:

People need to stop focusing on their little niche and think about the game as a whole.
Forget "It's a tank!" or "It's a freaking Javelin!", and think about balance and variety.

CCP is ultimately in charge, but people need to come to some agreement about how much ISK or SP should influence game balance, and do it outside the context of any particular role.

There is a spectrum of opinions, ranging from the hardcore tiericide that ISK and SP should buy only variety and not a single percentage of advantage, to folks who advocate WoW levels of advantage for either. The first is espoused by those who want player skill to be the determining factor in every situation and the latter by folks more comfortable with MMOs than traditional FPS.

If you think ISK should buy a 100-300% advantage, then that holds true for every role, not just the one you happened to choose. So if an expensive tank should be worth three standard infantry AV, then infantry should be able to purchase gun just as expensive such that they would be able to fight 2-3 normal tanks at once.

You choose the level of imbalance people can buy, and then anyone can buy it. It's just like when your mother makes you or your bother cut the cake and allows the other to choose the piece. It leads to a much more balanced division.

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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4520	Posted - 2014.02.22 10:04:00 - [181] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: 3 people in a tank should match 3 AV players. Not to potentially veer into trolling, but when was the last time you saw a tank fit with light turrets? I don't know about Shayz, but the last time I saw this was the last time I played on my tank alt. That was a few days ago now, because I've been busy with Armored Core, Dragon's Dogma and Strider lately.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2021	Posted - 2014.02.22 11:01:00 - [182] - Quote The most recurring arguement hear is basically . . . . I put Money and SP into this, I should be nigh on invincible. So just a simple question, what about someone who has a full SP Tree for nova knives, who is paying 50,000 per weapon at Proto (over 10 times more expensive than my entire fit), why can't he carve through tens of people per fit? If you are basing your argument on the fact that you SP down a certain route why can't anyone make that arguement? Instead of saying, I invested in this it should be OP by design try thinking If my tank should be weaker, I should get cheaper costs. Mlt : 75,000 Total Std: 125,000 Total Adv: 175,000 Total Pro: 250,000 Total Combat Engineer in training. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
Piraten Hovnoret Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 346	Posted - 2014.02.22 11:06:00 - [183] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: well, an 80k isk sica should be soloed, yes, but my half million isk tank should be right about where it is bc i invested half my Sp in it. So, to answer your question, a very expensive, very well planned tank piloted by a high SP and highly skilled and seasoned pilot should be nigh invincible. A mlt tank piloted by a noob should get soloed every single time someone tries. The quickest fix would be to nerf mlt tank fitting power AND buff AV so that AV can actually punch through tanks when their hardeners are off. It usually takes 3 shots from a swarm or forge, but a bad tanker is gone by the time the second shot lands, and a good tanker will only let one hit. What about if we do the same for infantry. My proto 200+k should not go down to any militia or standard gear Or are you just a trololololol War never changes
Leonid Tybalt Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 254	Posted - 2014.02.24 12:42:00 - [184] - Quote Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: well, an 80k isk sica should be soloed, yes, but my half million isk tank should be right about where it is bc i invested half my Sp in it. So, to answer your question, a very expensive, very well planned tank piloted by a high SP and highly skilled and seasoned pilot should be nigh invincible. A mlt tank piloted by a noob should get soloed every single time someone tries. The quickest fix would be to nerf mlt tank fitting power AND buff AV so that AV can actually punch through tanks when their hardeners are off. It usually takes 3 shots from a swarm or forge, but a bad tanker is gone by the time the second shot lands, and a good tanker will only let one hit. What about if we do the same for infantry. My proto 200+k should not go down to any militia or standard gear Or are you just a trololololol I seriously doubt your 200k+ proto suit goes down to a militia or std suit in a straight up fight as often as 500k tanks takes a beating from cheap 80k Sicas. Mainly because even ur you run a cheap militia tank it's extremely easy to fit it to get roughly the same damage output as a more expensive tank. It's not as easy to do with dropsuits and infantry weaponry.
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 691	Posted - 2014.02.24 12:57:00 - [185] - Quote I think the argument is kind of redundant now - of course they should be able to solo tanks. They are only supposed to be effective against tanks (which is not currently the case). Also, people seem to forget, you have a limited 16 v 16 engagement, having an asset that requires multiple people to take down makes that asset overpowered as it gives you a "soft" numerical advantage. I think we just have to wait what CCP have in mind to swing the pendulum back the other way.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1092	Posted - 2014.02.24 13:40:00 - [186] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: well, an 80k isk sica should be soloed, yes, but my half million isk tank should be right about where it is bc i invested half my Sp in it. So, to answer your question, a very expensive, very well planned tank piloted by a high SP and highly skilled and seasoned pilot should be nigh invincible. A mlt tank piloted by a noob should get soloed every single time someone tries. The quickest fix would be to nerf mlt tank fitting power AND buff AV so that AV can actually punch through tanks when their hardeners are off. It usually takes 3 shots from a swarm or forge, but a bad tanker is gone by the time the second shot lands, and a good tanker will only let one hit. Wow you are actually making sense ?!
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 384	Posted - 2014.03.28 20:25:00 - [187] - Quote Skihids wrote: People need to stop focusing on their little niche and think about the game as a whole. Forget "It's a tank!" or "It's a freaking Javelin!", and think about balance and variety. CCP is ultimately in charge, but people need to come to some agreement about how much ISK or SP should influence game balance, and do it outside the context of any particular role. There is a spectrum of opinions, ranging from the hardcore tiericide that ISK and SP should buy only variety and not a single percentage of advantage, to folks who advocate WoW levels of advantage for either. The first is espoused by those who want player skill to be the determining factor in every situation and the latter by folks more comfortable with MMOs than traditional FPS. If you think ISK should buy a 100-300% advantage, then that holds true for every role, not just the one you happened to choose. So if an expensive tank should be worth three standard infantry AV, then infantry should be able to purchase gun just as expensive such that they would be able to fight 2-3 normal tanks at once. You choose the level of imbalance people can buy, and then anyone can buy it. It's just like when your mother makes you or your bother cut the cake and allows the other to choose the piece. It leads to a much more balanced division. Hear, hear. I'm beginning to feel like almost everyone on this forum is here just to shout and not to solve problems, so appeals to reason generally go without any kind of response. Appreciate the thought you've put into this. This isn't as simple as 100k ISK > 30k ISK, though. Infantry AV could be more expensive than tanks even though a single fit of AV is less expensive than a single fit of a tank as a result of what we will call "mean time in combat" or MTIC. An AV fit's MTIC is lower due to its increased vulnerability, while a tank can frequently run an entire battle or at least be destroyed only a couple of times. Therefore in order to match the cost of AV, a tank's straight ISK cost per fit must be higher than an AV infantry's straight ISK cost per fit. How much higher? I don't know whether CCP even collects the kind of data you'd need to make a specific determination. You'd have to know the time between drop and destruction for each type of vehicle, and the time between spawn and destruction for each type of infantry weapon, and even then end-of-combat could skew results if it doesn't register as destruction. But I would venture a guess that vehicles should be at least 50% more expensive than the infantry AV counterpart, and possibly as much as 300%, provided all other factors are in balance (see my previous post in this thread). From there, you can calculate your premium. The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing
Bro-metheus Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 79	Posted - 2014.03.28 21:15:00 - [188] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: well, an 80k isk sica should be soloed, yes, but my half million isk tank should be right about where it is bc i invested half my Sp in it. So, to answer your question, a very expensive, very well planned tank piloted by a high SP and highly skilled and seasoned pilot should be nigh invincible. A mlt tank piloted by a noob should get soloed every single time someone tries. The quickest fix would be to nerf mlt tank fitting power AND buff AV so that AV can actually punch through tanks when their hardeners are off. It usually takes 3 shots from a swarm or forge, but a bad tanker is gone by the time the second shot lands, and a good tanker will only let one hit. wrong, any fool could see that balancing that kind of EHP spread on any game asset would be impossible. They should cut the costs of you tank down and 1 proto AV forge gun should be able to bring it down if all the rounds in the forgegun magazine land. 2 proto swarm launchers if they hit you with all the rounds in their magazine before they have to reload should also bring down the proto tank. That should always be the max required. You cannot have tanks have this insane amount of EHP spread and find a way to balance them, because the counters do no have that same level of DMG spread. The EHP spread for tanks should be the same % increase as it is for Dropsuits and the AV levels should have a spread to reflect that. You have to close the spread on tanks EHP. just think with the current tank spread once we get the other racials in order to show any real difference between them you would have to make them insane to see a effective difference. All tanks EHP has to be brought closer to the center. Reduce tank prices to reflect it. Everyone should have a equal chance to die to their counters. Tanks and Dropsuits included. Bring the tank prices down close the EHP spread. Let players spawn in veh from their redline quickly as well as allowing a call in anywhere. also allow recall only from redline and supply depots.
Black SlaverX Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2014.03.28 21:21:00 - [189] - Quote Aizen Intiki wrote: Reported for being a douche trying to troll people. Reported for: Harassment Name calling Adding nothing to original post Watch your back because I might be there.
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1998	Posted - 2014.03.28 21:24:00 - [190] - Quote Due to the lack of difference between High level, and no-level tanks, having a random AV guy be able to pop your tank solo, which could have cost quite a few matches would be a bad idea. Nerf Militia Tanks, Nerf the permahard tanks (limit hardners to one per vehicle), and lolpassive reppers, and then the issue of TANKKKKKKSSSSS! will be resolved. Because you wanted to be something you're not.

Gaurdian Satyr Glitched Connection 40	Posted - 2014.03.28 21:30:00 - [191] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: You have to be careful with AV buffs or dropships will go right back to where they were. We're actually really close to a state of balance right now, of course there are issues left that need to be addressed, but overall, it's coming along nicely for a change. Heres the thing the basic SW won't cut killing a tank which people want But it shouldn't They should invest it AV material I run advance and I solo fine No proto in public matches!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThWFhoB8kS8&feature=youtu.be
Luna Angelo We Who Walk Alone 940	Posted - 2014.03.28 21:32:00 - [192] - Quote If I may? I don't think one AV should be able to kill a tank, but it should make it think twice. As it is, you have scrubs with no talent not dying. And the ones WITH talent are racking it up. Just my two Isk. I'll expand on this later, back to cloaking it up. I don't need luck, I have a cloak. Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep. CEO of We Who Walk Alone
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6239	Posted - 2014.03.28 21:37:00 - [193] - Quote Gaurdian Satyr wrote: Heres the thing the basic HAVs wouldn't cut survivng AV which people wanted But it shouldn't They should've invest it HAV material I ran HAVs and I lived just fine Please refrain from using anecdotal evidence. As you can see from my revised version, it does not provide any facts to aid your argument. This thread is not about whether or not they can, it's about whether they should. Also, lolCBR7 SLs. My Madrugar's armor repairers could easily out-DPS you. The Snack That Smiles Back! "Swarmers" [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 389	Posted - 2014.03.28 21:44:00 - [194] - Quote Luna Angelo wrote: If I may? I don't think one AV should be able to kill a tank, but it should make it think twice. As it is, you have scrubs with no talent not dying. And the ones WITH talent are racking it up. Just my two Isk. I'll expand on this later, back to cloaking it up. I can appreciate where that's coming from, but here's my problem with it: An AV can't make a tank think twice without being able to kill it. You need to have the imminent threat of destruction in order to motivate any kind of behavior in the tanker. Otherwise you're just trying to annoy them into leaving. The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing


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