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Suanar Daranaus
Seykal Expeditionary Group
Minmatar Republic
106
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Posted - 2014.01.04 21:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
If CCP would just give Swarm launchers back their Lock Range and keep the damage nerf they have implemented.
It would fix a lot of the problems with 'Red line ' tanks, Un-droppable Drop ships.
Not Enough damage for one person to kill them but enough range to be peskey to them and make them have to use their Skills to out maneuver them to a safer, ( note I said "SAFER" ) not SAFE zone to regroup.
It would also give them a chance to use those new skills/mods that most find OP. j/k.
It might also settle down some of the complaints about Militia type tanks and dropships being to cheap and ever body being a 'pro' with them and them having no skills to back it up.
The 'Cheaper' models of those vehicles would be at the Most disadvantage of increased range of the old lock range on the swarms.
Just a thought.
You may now release the hounds with flame throwers on this idea. 
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Soldiersaint
Deepspace Digital
650
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 22:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
No CCP needs to give back the range AND damage. The swarm is a caldari weapon. Caldari specialize in long range and high damage. They are betraying the lore of the game and that is not right. By changing the swarm they are lying to the people who play this game. All they needed to do was reduce the price on vehicles thats it. But no they went and betrayed the lore which is the worst thing a game developer can do. |
THUNDERGROOVE
ZionTCD
Public Disorder.
449
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 23:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Suanar Daranaus wrote:If CCP would just give Swarm launchers back their Lock Range and keep the damage nerf they have implemented. It would fix a lot of the problems with 'Red line ' tanks, Un-droppable Drop ships. Not Enough damage for one person to kill them but enough range to be peskey to them and make them have to use their Skills to out maneuver them to a safer, ( note I said "SAFER" ) not SAFE zone to regroup. It would also give them a chance to use those new skills/mods that most find OP. j/k. It might also settle down some of the complaints about Militia type tanks and dropships being to cheap and ever body being a 'pro' with them and them having no skills to back it up. The 'Cheaper' models of those vehicles would be at the Most disadvantage of increased range of the old lock range on the swarms. Just a thought. You may now release the hounds with flame throwers on this idea.
No, you guys don't deserve to be able to sit on a tower all game with no threat other than snipers and orbitals.
Don't **** over the real tankers because scrubs in militia abuse it.
ZionTCD Director & Ammar Loyalist
Amarr Sentinel | Amarr Logi | Losematar Scout
What is a signature?
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2032
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 23:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
I still say:
Buff missile damage by 30 = 250 damage per missile (down from 330 in 1.6)
Buff range by 25m = 200m range (down from 400 in 1.6)
These small buffs would get the Swarm Launcher a lot closer to being balanced. After seeing the how that plays out we can determine if they need to be buffed any further.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
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Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
3393
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 23:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Well, here's something to think about:
Redline rails are cheap, but so are swarm users sitting on towers that can lock onto just about anything on the map.
We used to have a time machine
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Zunist Tae
Single Player Opps
22
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 00:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Well, here's something to think about:
Redline rails are cheap, but so are swarm users sitting on towers that can lock onto just about anything on the map.
So are drop ships that float overhead dropping missiles on me while safely out of reach. |
Suanar Daranaus
Seykal Expeditionary Group
Minmatar Republic
107
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 18:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:I still say:
Buff missile damage by 30 = 250 damage per missile (down from 330 in 1.6)
Buff range by 25m = 200m range (down from 400 in 1.6)
These small buffs would get the Swarm Launcher a lot closer to being balanced. After seeing the how that plays out we can determine if they need to be buffed any further.
That's a reasonable place to start with.
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Knight Soiaire
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
4290
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 18:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
"I WANT TO CAMP MOUNTAINS AGAIN!"
- OP
Provider of Vanilla Scented Soap Bars
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Suanar Daranaus
Seykal Expeditionary Group
Minmatar Republic
107
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 18:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Knight Soiaire wrote:"I WANT TO CAMP MOUNTAINS AGAIN!"
- OP
So go Do it. |
Geo MERCEDES
Daft Punk Fan Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 18:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Suanar Daranaus wrote:If CCP would just give Swarm launchers back their Lock Range and keep the damage nerf they have implemented. It would fix a lot of the problems with 'Red line ' tanks, Un-droppable Drop ships. Not Enough damage for one person to kill them but enough range to be peskey to them and make them have to use their Skills to out maneuver them to a safer, ( note I said "SAFER" ) not SAFE zone to regroup. It would also give them a chance to use those new skills/mods that most find OP. j/k. It might also settle down some of the complaints about Militia type tanks and dropships being to cheap and ever body being a 'pro' with them and them having no skills to back it up. The 'Cheaper' models of those vehicles would be at the Most disadvantage of increased range of the old lock range on the swarms. Just a thought. You may now release the hounds with flame throwers on this idea.
I'd almost rather they buff the damage and keep the range how it is.
I ran swarms a fair bit before 1.7 and I have to admit it was a little silly how I could stand on hills, not worry about dying, and pop tanks anywhere on the map.
On the other hand, the way swarms are now is also silly in that they can't really destroy tanks at all. Since it can't lock on to infantry there's no reason why it shouldn't have more damage per hit.
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Soraya Xel
The Corporate Raiders
Top Men.
904
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 18:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
I was amazed how close to a derpship I had to be to swarm it. Practically right under it when it wasn't even that high off the ground. And when I got near actually making a dent in it... it flew well higher than I could lock.
I actually had far better luck this patch killing a dropship with a blaster installation. More range, more damage. Less fail.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Lynn Beck
Granite Mercenary Division
Top Men.
494
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 18:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
175 meters is a long enough range, ever tried shooting a rail rifle past 150? That's some huge frickin distance.
Past 200m they don't even render, so stop wishing for gamebreaking things.
Under 28db
Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14)
I have a God, His name is Dakka.
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Everything Dies
Chatelain Rapid Response
Gallente Federation
414
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 18:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Soldiersaint wrote:No CCP needs to give back the range AND damage. The swarm is a caldari weapon. Caldari specialize in long range and high damage. They are betraying the lore of the game and that is not right. By changing the swarm they are lying to the people who play this game. All they needed to do was reduce the price on vehicles thats it. But no they went and betrayed the lore which is the worst thing a game developer can do.
I disagree. CCP scr*wed the pooch when they made too many changes at once to tanks AND swarms. They need to fix it by taking it one step at a time. Start out by offering a weaker (i.e. the current version,) longer-range (older) version of swarms at first and then adjust accordingly.
For the record, I have proto swarms.
Life is killing me.
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Soraya Xel
The Corporate Raiders
Top Men.
906
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 18:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Everything Dies wrote:I disagree. CCP scr*wed the pooch when they made too many changes at once to tanks AND swarms. They need to fix it by taking it one step at a time. Start out by offering a weaker (i.e. the current version,) longer-range (older) version of swarms at first and then adjust accordingly.
For the record, I have proto swarms.
The gradual changes thing is a big thing I keep trying to emphasize. CCP tries to "balance" things by changing three or four elements of an imbalanced situation at a time. This leads to massive over-nerfs and massive over-buffs. That's why the following list of formerly overpowered weapons are now 100% completely useless:
Tactical Assault Rifle, Flaylock Pistol, Impact Grenade, Swarm Launcher
CCP should only be buffing or nerfing things by like 10% at a time. Gradual balance changes will nudge things where they need to be, but CCP's current procedure is to take OP weapons and make them useless, and take UP weapons and make them unstoppable.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Poonmunch
Sanguis Defense Syndicate
760
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 19:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Soldiersaint wrote:No CCP needs to give back the range AND damage. The swarm is a caldari weapon. Caldari specialize in long range and high damage. They are betraying the lore of the game and that is not right. By changing the swarm they are lying to the people who play this game. All they needed to do was reduce the price on vehicles thats it. But no they went and betrayed the lore which is the worst thing a game developer can do.
The problem with too much damage is that dropships are too easy to kill.
I think they should have separate AV for tanks (no change in damage but slightly increased range) and dropships (moderately less damage in return for moderately increased range).
Munch
Dedicated Sniper.
Minmatar Patriot (6).
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
2154
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 19:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Get good OP
Intelligence is OP
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
3086
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 19:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Get good OP
Sadly Tankahiro, that would imply that your "good" in the first place.
Tanker > Logi > Scout > AV > Heavy > Assault > Sniper > Ninja > Forum Warrior.
And more weapons than you can count!
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
3086
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 19:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Range does need an increase, but 400m was way too far.
As for damage, increase the damage by 110HP per Missile and go from there.
Tanker > Logi > Scout > AV > Heavy > Assault > Sniper > Ninja > Forum Warrior.
And more weapons than you can count!
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
2154
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 19:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Get good OP Sadly Tankahiro, that would imply that your "good" in the first place.
I am good
I dont get killed by milita dropships like you do
Intelligence is OP
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
3087
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 19:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
I am good
I dont get killed by milita dropships like you do
I got killed by an Incubus with both a PRO and a MLT missile Launcher firing at me.
The fact that you couldn't survive a match against AV before 1.7 means that you weren't good at all.
Scrub maybe?
Tanker > Logi > Scout > AV > Heavy > Assault > Sniper > Ninja > Forum Warrior.
And more weapons than you can count!
|
calisk galern
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
1597
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 19:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
rather damage be returned then range.
range makes it possible to get away, range adds risk to the swarmer, hell I'd be fine hitting the range another 10% if it meant having the damage back.
damage being laughably low is what makes the swarms impotent.
on top of that range was also inadvertently causing the invisible swarm bug which is now gone because of the range nerf. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
2154
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 19:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
I am good
I dont get killed by milita dropships like you do
I got killed by an Incubus with both a PRO and a MLT missile Launcher firing at me. The fact that you couldn't survive a match against AV before 1.7 means that you weren't good at all. Scrub maybe?
Dont lie it was a militia DS with a milita turret
But i could survive and you couldnt
Intelligence is OP
|
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
3087
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 19:28:00 -
[23] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
Dont lie it was a militia DS with a milita turret
But i could survive and you couldnt
Then link the video, because I'm pretty sure there aren't any while MLT DS.
And the turret that Pyrex was using was an XT-1. Pretty sure that's PRO.
Funny considering how you spent almost all of Uprising QQing about how you couldn't survive PRO AV, when I and many others could. You must not be as good as you think you are.
Should I be embarrassed for you right now?
Tanker > Logi > Scout > AV > Heavy > Assault > Sniper > Ninja > Forum Warrior.
And more weapons than you can count!
|
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
2154
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 19:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
Dont lie it was a militia DS with a milita turret
But i could survive and you couldnt
Then link the video, because I'm pretty sure there aren't any while MLT DS. And the turret that Pyrex was using was an XT-1. Pretty sure that's PRO. Funny considering how you spent almost all of Uprising QQing about how you couldn't survive PRO AV, when I and many others could. You must not be as good as you think you are. Should I be embarrassed for you right now?
lol changing your story like you do your views
If you were as good at tanking as you are flip flopping about you might be good enough for PC but then again you get killed by milita dropships far too much
Intelligence is OP
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
3092
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 20:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
lol changing your story like you do your views
If you were as good at tanking as you are flip flopping about you might be good enough for PC but then again you get killed by milita dropships far too much
You and I both know it was an Incubus, and you and I both know that Pyrex was using XT-1s.
Heck, I'll even ask Pyrex and Evo-7 themselves.(Evo's in my local, shouldn't be too hard to find him.)
Changing my views about what?
I'm now embarrassed for you. I though that Sokr4TheDead was an embarrassment, but you sir take the cake.
Though I'm convinced that you and Spkr are the same person.
Tanker > Logi > Scout > AV > Heavy > Assault > Sniper > Ninja > Forum Warrior.
And more weapons than you can count!
|
danthrax martin
Butcher's Nails
24
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 22:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
Yeah, just a little more range is all i WANT, but teamwork with our tankers is starting to pay off good... So how it stands with dropships does suck the big one.
Adv. Commando, AR / swarm
Adv. Sentinel, AR / HMG
"I need More Ammo!!!"....."Medic!"
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tastzlike chicken
ROGUE SPADES
112
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 00:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
GÇ£AdaptGÇ¥ , GÇ£You have to change your tacticsGÇ¥, GÇ£You have to time your attackGÇ¥, GÇ£Know the vehicleGÇÖs weaknessesGÇ¥, GÇ£YouGÇÖre just used to the OP god gun swarm launchers used to beGÇ¥, GÇ£Get goodGÇ¥, GÇ£Use a smoke grenadeGÇ¥ ( Oh, sorry, that last disingenuous unhelpfully helpful auto-answer was from a different gameGǪ)
I agree most of the tactical advice tankers are flogging would be AVGÇÖers with. Speaking as a part time proto swarm user I would like to think that most of us rapidly adopted the tactics that tankers and others have outlined and still find our AV weapon of choice lacking. The swarm launcher is nowhere near as pathetic as the plasma cannon but at least they can shoot infantry with it when they need to. (Please, do not reinstitute dumb fire Swarms).
I use it as an area denial weapon, to give infantry some breathing room or a brief opportunity to traverse an open killzone. It is currently the most effective use of the Swarm Launcher GÇôbut if you look at my score at the end of a match where I was doing this as a dedicated function, you would wonder if I had done anything at all the whole match. Crap-ton of damage dealt but little reward for it.
Current hardeners +current tank speed = extremely low risk engagement of infantry for all but the most inept tankers. Swarm launchers needed to be nerfed but the HAV changes plus the changes to the SL was a little bit much from the SL users point of view. I do think they are closer to being balanced than they were before.
A good first step would be to restore the swarm launcher damage. Leave the lock on range as is; it was broken before. LetGÇÖs see how that goes for a while.
Something that CCP could do that would augment the swarm launcher and complicate combat (in a good way) would be to create a tackler role. Give me a means to slow your escape -- Webifier technology (as has been suggested by others) to slow your roll. (Stasis webifiers reduce the speed of a target by a certain percentage and the effects stack (subject to penalty)).
I would engineer them to have high fitting costs and be short range, line of sight infantry modules so that HAV gunners (and enemy infantry) can un-ass the tank by dealing with the tacklers. GÇôand/or create a vehicle module that can perform this duty. This provides a new role for the battlefield and should promote GÇ£teamworkGÇ¥ both to kill a tank and to keep it up and running.
It doesnGÇÖt inherently buff the swarm launcher but does tie up more infantry to increase the effectiveness of the existing AV systems.
I shy away from the idea of a webifier grenade (spam abuse and too low risk for infantry compared to its effect. I also donGÇÖt think webs should be AOE) however, I could support a deployable equipment item.
The lock on range of SL's was a problem. It was too easy for SL infantry to destroy vehicles from relative safety. |
Joel II X
Dah Gods O Bacon
432
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 00:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
Poonmunch wrote:Soldiersaint wrote:No CCP needs to give back the range AND damage. The swarm is a caldari weapon. Caldari specialize in long range and high damage. They are betraying the lore of the game and that is not right. By changing the swarm they are lying to the people who play this game. All they needed to do was reduce the price on vehicles thats it. But no they went and betrayed the lore which is the worst thing a game developer can do. The problem with too much damage is that dropships are too easy to kill. I think they should have separate AV for tanks (no change in damage but slightly increased range) and dropships (moderately less damage in return for moderately increased range). Munch
Do give swarms their old range back and take out some Forge Gun range? Because that's what I think you're asking for (which I agree with you). |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
185
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 00:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Suanar Daranaus wrote:If CCP would just give Swarm launchers back their Lock Range and keep the damage nerf they have implemented. It would fix a lot of the problems with 'Red line ' tanks, Un-droppable Drop ships. Not Enough damage for one person to kill them but enough range to be peskey to them and make them have to use their Skills to out maneuver them to a safer, ( note I said "SAFER" ) not SAFE zone to regroup. It would also give them a chance to use those new skills/mods that most find OP. j/k. It might also settle down some of the complaints about Militia type tanks and dropships being to cheap and ever body being a 'pro' with them and them having no skills to back it up. The 'Cheaper' models of those vehicles would be at the Most disadvantage of increased range of the old lock range on the swarms. Just a thought. You may now release the hounds with flame throwers on this idea. No, you guys don't deserve to be able to sit on a tower all game with no threat other than snipers and orbitals. Don't **** over the real tankers because scrubs in militia abuse it.
A proto swarm with prof 3 and 3 complex damage mods is barely enough to kill a dropship in one clip as is. Dropships could easily fly up and destroy someone camping on a building just by activating hardeners. As far as only snipers being a threat then just consider how FGs are a tanks only threat right now. I'd argue that the ratio of snipers to SLs is higher than FGs to tanks recently.
The only thing that the range buff would really do is make it harder to run away from SLs. It's too easy to do as of now. Add a little more range to the SL and they'll start catching the weaker/less skilled tankers. If you're a "real tanker" then you should have no problem beating SLs with your modules and speed. |
Echo 1991
Deadly Blue Dots
RISE of LEGION
21
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 01:18:00 -
[30] - Quote
I just find it funny that tanks can things from 200-250m away but if we have the same thing its OP. Look you guys have to remember that you are mostly using standard/militia tanks and dropships and proto AV isn't quite good enough to deal with it unless it is within an organized squad or the tanker is a complete idiot, what happens when the better tanks and dropships are introduced and do not even get dented by the AV we currently have? (Hopefully they'll be balance by then) I'll admit that sitting on a roof with a swarm launcher doesn't take much skill, but neither does red-line sniping. While tanks can move as fast as they can and can sit in the red line without any fear of dying, swarms should at the very least have their range back at the very least a 75m increase. The main counter to a tank should not be a tank. Also dropships are practically invincible in the hands of a skilled pilot, when swarms hit it, it just flies off out of range unless we have a decent forge gunner. |
ballistic surgeon
killer taxi company
12
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 02:32:00 -
[31] - Quote
Keep dmg same but give it a huge speed buff (never seen missles move so slow b4) and range buff (std/mlt stay as is, 200m for adv, 250m for proto). Wouldnt mind CCP adding a dumbfire swarm version to the mix. Kinda like a rpg, shoots 1 projectile at a time (dmg, reload time and distance all increase with higher skill).
|
Poonmunch
Sanguis Defense Syndicate
760
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 02:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:
The gradual changes thing is a big thing I keep trying to emphasize.
This is very true.
Tiny changes in complex systems can cause very large downstream effects.
I agree that they should try to gently change things when they do make changes.
I've been using Swarm Launchers of late and I have to get Kamikaze close to tanks and dropships to do damage.
I'm not asking to be able to solo a tank but a Swarm Launcher should make the area unpleasant enough for a tank that it won't linger.
Having said this, I think dropships need to get some sort of buff because they suffer badly from hits by Swarm Launchers.
Munch
Dedicated Sniper.
Minmatar Patriot (6).
|
Pvt Numnutz
Black Phoenix Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
613
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 03:53:00 -
[33] - Quote
Suanar Daranaus wrote:If CCP would just give Swarm launchers back their Lock Range and keep the damage nerf they have implemented. It would fix a lot of the problems with 'Red line ' tanks, Un-droppable Drop ships. Not Enough damage for one person to kill them but enough range to be peskey to them and make them have to use their Skills to out maneuver them to a safer, ( note I said "SAFER" ) not SAFE zone to regroup. It would also give them a chance to use those new skills/mods that most find OP. j/k. It might also settle down some of the complaints about Militia type tanks and dropships being to cheap and ever body being a 'pro' with them and them having no skills to back it up. The 'Cheaper' models of those vehicles would be at the Most disadvantage of increased range of the old lock range on the swarms. Just a thought. You may now release the hounds with flame throwers on this idea.
Dropships can still be destroyed. It takes a more powerful weapon than a swarm to bring down a proto fit assault dropship. And why should it? Its cost compared to a proto fit assault dropship is nothing, should a weapon like that really be able to destroy a well fit and skilled dropship.
I could understand increasing the damage slightly, but the range should remain the same. Now here me out, the old swarms could Cover most if not all of the map depending on the map. The new swarm lock range Makes it so that one man cannot lock down the map.
I know you think that pilots should be able to skillfully avoid or out maneuver swarms, the simply fact is swarms will turn straight 90 degree angles to hit the target. Unless the dropship is fit with afterburners and manages to speed away in time. There is no skill or fun in that situation. |
P14GU3
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
475
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 04:02:00 -
[34] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:175 meters is a long enough range, ever tried shooting a rail rifle past 150? That's some huge frickin distance.
Past 200m they don't even render, so stop wishing for gamebreaking things.
Did you know blasters can shoot farther than swarms right now?
Seems like balance to me |
Soraya Xel
The Corporate Raiders
Top Men.
942
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 04:25:00 -
[35] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:
Dropships can still be destroyed. It takes a more powerful weapon than a swarm to bring down a proto fit assault dropship. And why should it? Its cost compared to a proto fit assault dropship is nothing, should a weapon like that really be able to destroy a well fit and skilled dropship.
Here's the problem: ISK should not allow you to be invulnerable for an entire match. If you aren't losing your vehicle in a match, your vehicle is OP. They can make them cheaper, they can make swarms more expensive, but the last thing you should get, is the ability to buy a slightly more expensive fit (a vehicle) that can't die, so it doesn't end up costing you anything 90% of the time.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Nirwanda Vaughns
261
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 04:57:00 -
[36] - Quote
personally i think swarm damage is fine. i have mine to prof 3 and run 3 complex damage mods to it. yes its a lot to get them killing effectivly but i think it helps keep more balance.
i had a few ideas about swarms to try keep balance together vs ground and air vehicles applying one or two could help bring them more back in line
1. lock range of swarms increases with tier. STD - 200m. ADV - 250m. PRO - 300m
2. Instead of Assault Swarms have a specialized Ariel Swarm. starting at 400m lock range as before at ADV/Lv4 and upto 500m PRO that can only lock air vehicles
3. More specialized skills. Instead of just applying changes to the swarms introduce specialization skills so AV'ers can truly specialize. these 3, 4x skill training skills (ammo is 3x prof is 5x) could be Swarm Lock range, Swarm missile flight time and swarm missile velocity. each one adds 10% per level to their attribute.
using a mix of the above suggestions will help keep swarms and vehicles baalnced but gives those who want to be true AV'ers the ways to improve their weapons and give tanks and dropships a true run for their money
Real Gallente structure tank :)
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Beck Weathers
Ghosts of Dawn
General Tso's Alliance
224
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 05:03:00 -
[37] - Quote
You should have to keep a continuous lock on the target until the missles impact or they fly off into space, Then you can have your range and damage back. |
Zunist Tae
Single Player Opps
29
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 05:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:Dropships can still be destroyed. It takes a more powerful weapon than a swarm to bring down a proto fit assault dropship. And why should it? Its cost compared to a proto fit assault dropship is nothing, should a weapon like that really be able to destroy a well fit and skilled dropship.
I could understand increasing the damage slightly, but the range should remain the same. Now here me out, the old swarms could Cover most if not all of the map depending on the map. The new swarm lock range Makes it so that one man cannot lock down the map.
I know you think that pilots should be able to skillfully avoid or out maneuver swarms, the simply fact is swarms will turn straight 90 degree angles to hit the target. Unless the dropship is fit with afterburners and manages to speed away in time. There is no skill or fun in that situation.
The issue is they can currently hover just out of range firing without fear. That's just bad design. Assault DS make the situation worse by providing a single player the ability to kill essentially without fear of reprisal (unless you count tanks...and even then DS's are agile enough to stay overhead while still dropping missiles on the tank) . Even worse, with speed boost they're frequently pushing well past the red line to abuse ground troops in a manner very similar to tanks.
Beyond that these are weapons designed to destroy vehicles. If a weapon designed to destroy vehicle is incapable of doing so then it's a failure as a weapon.
As to being unable to avoid swarms, they're suppose to be hard to dodge. However, the devs were nice enough to provide multiple tools for dealing with this. Hardeners, afterburners, shield boosters, extra armor, armor reps etc...Additionally I frequently see DS pilots dip behind buildings etc. While being airborne should provide benefits it shouldn't mean you can't be killed. |
Jason Pearson
3799
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 05:27:00 -
[39] - Quote
Beck Weathers wrote:You should have to keep a continuous lock on the target until the missles impact or they fly off into space, Then you can have your range and damage back.
I wouldn't be opposed to this.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
You're a total git, Jason. - Kingbabar
|
FAKIR REDETTa
0uter.Heaven
108
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 05:40:00 -
[40] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Atiim wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
I am good
I dont get killed by milita dropships like you do
I got killed by an Incubus with both a PRO and a MLT missile Launcher firing at me. The fact that you couldn't survive a match against AV before 1.7 means that you weren't good at all. Scrub maybe? Dont lie it was a militia DS with a milita turret But i could survive and you couldnt
impossible once a assault dropship is on top of you ur ****** |
Mercenary Anti Armor
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
25
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 06:13:00 -
[41] - Quote
Im a swarm guy and i personally think swarm shouldnt go back to how it was in1.6. But it should get a LITTLE buff, not too much and not too little. Like 50more damage or somewhere around there, the range should increase a little,but not too much.
I'll swarm the out of you guys
|
Ld Collins
Titans of Phoenix
Legacy Rising
102
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 06:31:00 -
[42] - Quote
Are there any commandos that use the swarm launcher? Having 20% reload speed over 10% reload speed should help you down a vehicle. |
Beld Errmon
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
1207
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 07:25:00 -
[43] - Quote
My protoswarms still nail tanks, I guess it takes a tanker to know how to kill a tank, maybe its because I understand them or perhaps its cause I'm not sitting around balling my eyes out about the loss of easy mode AV, btw swarms won't do jack about redline rail tanks, they never have and never will. |
Nirwanda Vaughns
262
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 07:50:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:Are there any commandos that use the swarm launcher? Having 20% reload speed over 10% reload speed should help you down a vehicle.
i have a dual proto swarm commando and the reload speed is pretty nice but the main issue isn't reload but locking time. with overdrivers and afterburners a vehicle can be out of lock range before 2nd or 3rd lock
Real Gallente structure tank :)
|
Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders
Top Men.
1965
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 07:54:00 -
[45] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Atiim wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Get good OP Sadly Tankahiro, that would imply that your "good" in the first place. I am good I dont get killed by milita dropships like you do
Challenge Accepted, does Stayy Freshh Still play, get me and him and I'll give you a new *******...
A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
|
Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders
Top Men.
1965
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 07:55:00 -
[46] - Quote
Mercenary Anti Armor wrote:Im a swarm guy and i personally think swarm shouldnt go back to how it was in1.6. But it should get a LITTLE buff, not too much and not too little. Like 50more damage or somewhere around there, the range should increase a little,but not too much.
This^ a little more dam and lock-on
A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
|
Zunist Tae
Single Player Opps
29
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 07:57:00 -
[47] - Quote
Beck Weathers wrote:You should have to keep a continuous lock on the target until the missles impact or they fly off into space, Then you can have your range and damage back.
No. We usually use three back to back volleys just to drive them off. Having to maintain a lock means we get one volley, even at the old damage it isn't enough to more than make them giggle. Additionally it increases my vulnerability 10 fold by keeping me focused on a target that I still won't be able to kill. This means it'll be even easier for infantry to kill me. |
Echoist
Fenrir's Wolves
Zero-Day
106
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 10:05:00 -
[48] - Quote
Why are people having so much trouble with the new swarm launcher? I mostly use my Adv. swarm fit and still have no problem taking out tanks, you just have to learn when to attack and team up with a forge gunner. I'm just glad that now swarm launcher users can't solo tanks cause before that was ridiculous lol.
Noobasaures: "Rawr"
Ex-Laser Rifle Specialist, fuck you CCP.
|
P14GU3
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
484
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 10:33:00 -
[49] - Quote
Echoist wrote:Why are people having so much trouble with the new swarm launcher? I mostly use my Adv. swarm fit and still have no problem taking out tanks, you just have to learn when to attack and team up with a forge gunner. I'm just glad that now swarm launcher users can't solo tanks cause before that was ridiculous lol.
Right... cus ONE guy in a tank, with same isk/sp investment as ONE guy with a swarm, should be so much more powerful |
Echoist
Fenrir's Wolves
Zero-Day
106
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 10:47:00 -
[50] - Quote
P14GU3 wrote:Echoist wrote:Why are people having so much trouble with the new swarm launcher? I mostly use my Adv. swarm fit and still have no problem taking out tanks, you just have to learn when to attack and team up with a forge gunner. I'm just glad that now swarm launcher users can't solo tanks cause before that was ridiculous lol. Right... cus ONE guy in a tank, with same isk/sp investment as ONE guy with a swarm, should be so much more powerful
He's in a -->tank<-- he should have more fire power over me with one swarm launcher. Since when did rocket launchers make more of a bang than a tank cannon?? I couldn't give two ***** about sp investment balance thats not how you balance things. Numbers don't balance things its how they perform in the field and how well they do out in the field that should be the deciding factor of a balance.
Noobasaures: "Rawr"
Laser Rifle Specialist, Rail Rifles... Lol fail
|
ballistic surgeon
killer taxi company
12
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 12:15:00 -
[51] - Quote
Echoist wrote:P14GU3 wrote:Echoist wrote:Why are people having so much trouble with the new swarm launcher? I mostly use my Adv. swarm fit and still have no problem taking out tanks, you just have to learn when to attack and team up with a forge gunner. I'm just glad that now swarm launcher users can't solo tanks cause before that was ridiculous lol. Right... cus ONE guy in a tank, with same isk/sp investment as ONE guy with a swarm, should be so much more powerful He's in a -->tank<-- he should have more fire power over me with one swarm launcher. Since when did rocket launchers make more of a bang than a tank cannon?? I couldn't give two ***** about sp investment balance thats not how you balance things. Numbers don't balance things its how they perform in the field and how well they do out in the field that should be the deciding factor of a balance.
A javelin will f'up a tank real quick. It can reach up to 2500 yds in a couple of seconds. U tellin me in the future we have gone backwards in weapon technology. Im not askin for a OHK swarm but at least give the guys who put the SP investment into SL a chance. |
KingBabar
The Rainbow Effect
1604
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 12:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
So I Wonder, how about them Assault suits????
http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/KingBabar/media/BannerKingbabarcopy.png.html
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steve0809
GRIM MARCH
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
3
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 12:31:00 -
[53] - Quote
ballistic surgeon wrote:Echoist wrote:P14GU3 wrote:Echoist wrote:Why are people having so much trouble with the new swarm launcher? I mostly use my Adv. swarm fit and still have no problem taking out tanks, you just have to learn when to attack and team up with a forge gunner. I'm just glad that now swarm launcher users can't solo tanks cause before that was ridiculous lol. Right... cus ONE guy in a tank, with same isk/sp investment as ONE guy with a swarm, should be so much more powerful He's in a -->tank<-- he should have more fire power over me with one swarm launcher. Since when did rocket launchers make more of a bang than a tank cannon?? I couldn't give two ***** about sp investment balance thats not how you balance things. Numbers don't balance things its how they perform in the field and how well they do out in the field that should be the deciding factor of a balance. A javelin will f'up a tank real quick. It can reach up to 2500 yds in a couple of seconds. U tellin me in the future we have gone backwards in weapon technology. Im not askin for a OHK swarm but at least give the guys who put the SP investment into SL a chance.
Dude we must have gone backwards, in the future apparently they cant jump anymore because my clone cant clear a 2 inch high barrier !
|
Sirys Lyons
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 12:39:00 -
[54] - Quote
steve0809 wrote:
Dude we must have gone backwards, in the future apparently they cant jump anymore because my clone cant clear a 2 inch high barrier !
Apparently, the future economies of scale in tanks must be absurd. My AV clone and an AV Sica are almost equal in cost.
Bonus: I can pretty much ignore infantry (including AV infantry) in the tank.
Benefit: The railgun projectile moves quickly, and doesn't get confused by small hills.
Plus: I can actually do serious alpha damage to a tank. And when they run off - I can follow them.
If you've got AV problems, you just need a tank.
And yes, that's broken. |
Echoist
Fenrir's Wolves
Zero-Day
106
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 13:10:00 -
[55] - Quote
ballistic surgeon wrote:Echoist wrote:P14GU3 wrote:Echoist wrote:Why are people having so much trouble with the new swarm launcher? I mostly use my Adv. swarm fit and still have no problem taking out tanks, you just have to learn when to attack and team up with a forge gunner. I'm just glad that now swarm launcher users can't solo tanks cause before that was ridiculous lol. Right... cus ONE guy in a tank, with same isk/sp investment as ONE guy with a swarm, should be so much more powerful He's in a -->tank<-- he should have more fire power over me with one swarm launcher. Since when did rocket launchers make more of a bang than a tank cannon?? I couldn't give two ***** about sp investment balance thats not how you balance things. Numbers don't balance things its how they perform in the field and how well they do out in the field that should be the deciding factor of a balance. A javelin will f'up a tank real quick. It can reach up to 2500 yds in a couple of seconds. U tellin me in the future we have gone backwards in weapon technology. Im not askin for a OHK swarm but at least give the guys who put the SP investment into SL a chance.
People who invested in swarm launchers (myself included) do have a chance at killing tanks. Just yesterday I was with some corp and alliance members and we destroyed a number of tanks. What people are wanting is to be able to solo kill raspberry tanks, which in my opinion is stupid and I'm not even a tanker myself. So what i'm trying to say is maybe the problem isn't in AV vs. Tanks but rather in how many tanks each side is able to call in at once. Its actually surprising easy to kill a tank when working with one or more AV users, of course that's depending on the skill of said hunted tanker. And i'm not saying that every tanker 8've come across I've been able to kill, but there IS an outline of AV vs. Tank balance people just need to learn how to adapt and accept that some actics from the past just aren't viable anymore. No matter how much fun they used to be.
Noobasaures: "Rawr"
Laser Rifle Specialist, Rail Rifles... Lol fail
|
Big Swool
fux'd your mom DP
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 13:19:00 -
[56] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:I still say:
Buff missile damage by 30 = 250 damage per missile (down from 330 in 1.6)
Buff range by 25m = 200m range (down from 400 in 1.6)
These small buffs would get the Swarm Launcher a lot closer to being balanced. After seeing the how that plays out we can determine if they need to be buffed any further.
I like the range idea but the damage should be brought all the way back and I'd like too see then swarms fly faster. |
NAV HIV
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
694
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 13:37:00 -
[57] - Quote
Suanar Daranaus wrote:If CCP would just give Swarm launchers back their Lock Range and keep the damage nerf they have implemented. It would fix a lot of the problems with 'Red line ' tanks, Un-droppable Drop ships. Not Enough damage for one person to kill them but enough range to be peskey to them and make them have to use their Skills to out maneuver them to a safer, ( note I said "SAFER" ) not SAFE zone to regroup. It would also give them a chance to use those new skills/mods that most find OP. j/k. It might also settle down some of the complaints about Militia type tanks and dropships being to cheap and ever body being a 'pro' with them and them having no skills to back it up. The 'Cheaper' models of those vehicles would be at the Most disadvantage of increased range of the old lock range on the swarms. Just a thought. You may now release the hounds with flame throwers on this idea.
I want my swarm Launcher Skills back CCP |
Echoist
Fenrir's Wolves
Zero-Day
106
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 18:40:00 -
[58] - Quote
Big Swool wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:I still say:
Buff missile damage by 30 = 250 damage per missile (down from 330 in 1.6)
Buff range by 25m = 200m range (down from 400 in 1.6)
These small buffs would get the Swarm Launcher a lot closer to being balanced. After seeing the how that plays out we can determine if they need to be buffed any further. I like the range idea but the damage should be brought all the way back and I'd like too see then swarms fly faster.
I don't mind the damage the swarm launcher does right now it's quite fitting, although I do agree with you on how fast the missiles travel for us to make do with the range we have right now faster missiles would help without needing to increase the damage at all.
Noobasaures: "Rawr"
Laser Rifle Specialist, Rail Rifles... Lol fail
|
The Robot Devil
Molon Labe.
Public Disorder.
1398
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 18:42:00 -
[59] - Quote
Suanar Daranaus wrote:If CCP would just give Swarm launchers back their Lock Range and keep the damage nerf they have implemented. It would fix a lot of the problems with 'Red line ' tanks, Un-droppable Drop ships. Not Enough damage for one person to kill them but enough range to be peskey to them and make them have to use their Skills to out maneuver them to a safer, ( note I said "SAFER" ) not SAFE zone to regroup. It would also give them a chance to use those new skills/mods that most find OP. j/k. It might also settle down some of the complaints about Militia type tanks and dropships being to cheap and ever body being a 'pro' with them and them having no skills to back it up. The 'Cheaper' models of those vehicles would be at the Most disadvantage of increased range of the old lock range on the swarms. Just a thought. You may now release the hounds with flame throwers on this idea.
Just introduce modules and skills that augment how the SL works and make being a dedicated AV a real profession.
GÇ£No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride."
Hunter S. Thompson
|
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
3148
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 18:56:00 -
[60] - Quote
Echoist wrote:
He's in a -->tank<-- he should have more fire power over me with one swarm launcher. Since when did rocket launchers make more of a bang than a tank cannon?? I couldn't give two ***** about sp investment balance thats not how you balance things. Numbers don't balance things its how they perform in the field and how well they do out in the field that should be the deciding factor of a balance.
Look up the Javelin. And it is a TANK.
Against ANTI-VEHICLE weaponry.
You may sit down now.
CoD ----->
<----- WoT
Please AR and Tank scrubs, go to your respective games. Leave DUST alone!
|
Nirwanda Vaughns
263
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 19:02:00 -
[61] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:Suanar Daranaus wrote:If CCP would just give Swarm launchers back their Lock Range and keep the damage nerf they have implemented. It would fix a lot of the problems with 'Red line ' tanks, Un-droppable Drop ships. Not Enough damage for one person to kill them but enough range to be peskey to them and make them have to use their Skills to out maneuver them to a safer, ( note I said "SAFER" ) not SAFE zone to regroup. It would also give them a chance to use those new skills/mods that most find OP. j/k. It might also settle down some of the complaints about Militia type tanks and dropships being to cheap and ever body being a 'pro' with them and them having no skills to back it up. The 'Cheaper' models of those vehicles would be at the Most disadvantage of increased range of the old lock range on the swarms. Just a thought. You may now release the hounds with flame throwers on this idea. Just introduce modules and skills that augment how the SL works and make being a dedicated AV a real profession.
ah bugger that reminds me about having hislot module to increase lock range. that way you either have damage mods or locking range. bit like the sensor booster ammo in eve
Real Gallente structure tank :)
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Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
3436
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 19:38:00 -
[62] - Quote
Zunist Tae wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Well, here's something to think about:
Redline rails are cheap, but so are swarm users sitting on towers that can lock onto just about anything on the map. So are drop ships that float overhead dropping missiles on me while safely out of reach.
Small missiles have about the same range as swarm launchers. I agree that the range should be buffed, but not too much.
We used to have a time machine
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Suanar Daranaus
Seykal Expeditionary Group
Minmatar Republic
113
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 21:08:00 -
[63] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:personally i think swarm damage is fine. i have mine to prof 3 and run 3 complex damage mods to it. yes its a lot to get them killing effectivly but i think it helps keep more balance.
i had a few ideas about swarms to try keep balance together vs ground and air vehicles applying one or two could help bring them more back in line
1. lock range of swarms increases with tier. STD - 200m. ADV - 250m. PRO - 300m
2. Instead of Assault Swarms have a specialized Ariel Swarm. starting at 400m lock range as before at ADV/Lv4 and upto 500m PRO that can only lock air vehicles
3. More specialized skills. Instead of just applying changes to the swarms introduce specialization skills so AV'ers can truly specialize. these 3, 4x skill training skills (ammo is 3x prof is 5x) could be Swarm Lock range, Swarm missile flight time and swarm missile velocity. each one adds 10% per level to their attribute.
using a mix of the above suggestions will help keep swarms and vehicles baalnced but gives those who want to be true AV'ers the ways to improve their weapons and give tanks and dropships a true run for their money
Some good ideas there.  |
Big Swool
1
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 21:40:00 -
[64] - Quote
All these ideas have real good points, it does sux that one thing that changes with each upgrade of the SL is a extra rocket, Nirwanda has a good idea speacilized swarms for air and ground and the very best that would probably cost a arm and a leg locks on both. But you know they probably won't listen lol
Bullsh*t
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Marluk Visconti
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
8
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 06:13:00 -
[65] - Quote
I do miss the effectiveness of my swarm launcher and would also appreciate a range that doesn't so severely hamper the weapon. Damage is one thing, and I agree with the nerf there, but the range limitation has crippled what was once a favourite.
I miss my swarm. The only way it's even remotely effective is if I'm right on top of something, and even then every vehicle can now easily move out of the disappointing range.
Like most one-time swarm users, I'll have to switch to the forge gun to have any hope of overcoming the mass of people now jumping into tanks to get kills now that the launcher is no longer as significant a threat. |
Michael Arck
Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu
2841
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 07:10:00 -
[66] - Quote
Range and damage should be buffed. It's amazing that you will see a DS clear as day in front of you but because of the range nerf, you can't lock on. Now you have to get closer and with onboard DS scanner, you have to play a real good mouse game to get a lock, maintain it while being shot at and fire.
I can handle it okay but the thing is, my swarms acts a deterrent now, not as a destroyer. Switching to my swarm fit is like pulling out a fly swatter to shoo away a fly I know I can't catch or kill. I never look at my swarms as the end for tanks/DS. If I see tanks fall in HP quickly, I'm happy for I know they aren't skilled up or without modules.
But if it is, I hope that someone else is beside me swarming a tank so that we can "scare" off the comp when it sees a volley of 12 missiles heading in its direction.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu.
For the State!!
[email protected]
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