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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution
1337
   |
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Stop ruining the good name of those who stayed with tanks from 1.0-.1.7
You are no better than the Duvolle/Gallogi tryhards of 1.7 or the MD/Flaylock/Callogis of 1.4 or callogi/Tars of 1.0; you disgust me. I want you to know that I dedicate every battle to hunting you down and farming your SP-less death machines like a Thale farms Frontline suits.
Cease and desist or I will QQ until a visit to the GD section makes your skull bleed.
To those who QQ about tanks being "OP":
No, REAL tanks are not OP. They cost around half a million ISK and losing 1 puts us in debt for the next 2-3 battles. That is PERFECT. 7 was ridiculous, but so is 1/3- like the soma and sica fits which cost 80k- I can lose 3 and still profit in a good battle. That is broken. That is why tanks are being spammed. These leaves us with 2 options, which I, as the Highest Level Unicorn, have deemed best choice:
1) Nerf militia tank hulls into the ground- cut CPU/PG by 40%, cut speed 30%, and reduce base SH/AR by 20%. Make militia LARGE turrets absolute garbage too-> Cut mot 80gj rail damage to 900 and 80gj blaster ROF by 35%
2) Increase militia tank cost to 150k and STD hulls to 200k. Now, the real tankers will not be affected, but mlt tnk spam is impossible because losing more than 1 puts the user in the hole for the next battle- just like a tank should.
A tank should be powerful, yes, but it should not be something deployed more than once in a pub match. At the same time, it should not take 7 battles to generate enough ISK to deploy one tank.
Right now, a good gunlogi/maddy cost 400k. A good sica/soma costs 80k. Most battles will give someone around 200k. Ratios are as follows: STD(2:1) MLT (1:2). It needs to change to: MLT(1:1). MEaning, losing 1 STD tank fit takes 2 battles to regernate, losing 1 militia takes 1 battle to regenerate.
If this change was implemented, we would no longer see people spamming tanks because it bumps their KDR because most somas/sicas do not survive an entire battle- especially if there is a real tanker on the other team. Because of this, only expert tankers and those curious about driving tanks all deploy tanks. MLT tanks will still be powerful and accessible, STD well fitted tanks will not be only accessible to the rich, and infantry can enjoy a game with much less tank spam than we have now, while still delighting in the 3-Dimensional battlefield that 1.7 has brought us. |
TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
5192
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
*watches Atiim slowly circle the thread*
Never forget
How to fix the Logi
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution
1339
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:*watches Atiim slowly circle the thread*
i feel like he has a list of tankers and he watches the GD section, refreshing every 10 seconds, and check the top posts, to check if one of us authored it, if so, then he clicks and says something along the lines of "stupid tankers, don't bother arguing with them." Then All 20 of us swarm on him and then I post a picture of him going 2/9 in a pub and then everyone calls him bad and I comment that he may be mad because he is bad, and so forth. I don't like Atiim. He is not my friend. Twilight Sparkle and the Mane 6 are my friends.
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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KenKaniff69
Fatal Absolution
1710
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:*watches Atiim slowly circle the thread*
Atiim wrote:How am I supposed to solo tanks if they actually have resistance now and my no-skill 360 ladder stall swarm volleys don't deal 3k damage? It's not fair.
So about those vehicle locks...
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
1459
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
"Puts pipe in mouth" But I only do so because the other team did. Can't beat them join them by showing how much money you have
"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution
1339
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Atiim wrote:I'm mad because I am bad.
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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DJINN Marauder
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
3998
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
But how will I blow up tanks?
I use my dmg mod rail sica fit to blow up the damn gunlogis and maddys.... After this nerf I won be able to do that :(
GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢
Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà
Forum Warrior LV. 3 | Warframe is awesome! | PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
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Piraten Hovnoret
Chatelain Rapid Response
Gallente Federation
192
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Or just increase the cost of the tanks.
No scrub noob can spam tanks if the militia tanks cost 110-150k isk.( maybe about 200-250 fitted) However it's low inuf to try them out and have a look if you like that game style.
Regards
War never changes
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THUNDERGROOVE
ZionTCD
Public Disorder.
429
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:*watches Atiim slowly circle the thread* i feel like he has a list of tankers and he watches the GD section, refreshing every 10 seconds, and check the top posts, to check if one of us authored it, if so, then he clicks and says something along the lines of "stupid tankers, don't bother arguing with them." Then All 20 of us swarm on him and then I post a picture of him going 2/9 in a pub and then everyone calls him bad and I comment that he may be mad because he is bad, and so forth. I don't like Atiim. He is not my friend. Twilight Sparkle and the Mane 6 are my friends.
A script running 24/7 that checks for new posts by a list of people that sends him a text message/email and calls his home phone when they post a new thread. 
ZionTCD Director & Ammar Loyalist
Amarr Sentinel | Amarr Logi | Losematar Scout
What is a signature?
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution
1339
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
lol. I think Atiim is the most hated person since Lueko and Checkmate
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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Ander Thedas
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
190
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Stop ruining the good name of those who stayed with tanks from 1.0-.1.7
You are no better than the Duvolle/Gallogi tryhards of 1.7 or the MD/Flaylock/Callogis of 1.4 or callogi/Tars of 1.0; you disgust me. I want you to know that I dedicate every battle to hunting you down and farming your SP-less death machines like a Thale farms Frontline suits.
Cease and desist or I will QQ until a visit to the GD section makes your skull bleed.
To those who QQ about tanks being "OP":
No, REAL tanks are not OP. They cost around half a million ISK and losing 1 puts us in debt for the next 2-3 battles. That is PERFECT. 7 was ridiculous, but so is 1/3- like the soma and sica fits which cost 80k- I can lose 3 and still profit in a good battle. That is broken. That is why tanks are being spammed. These leaves us with 2 options, which I, as the Highest Level Unicorn, have deemed best choice:
1) Nerf militia tank hulls into the ground- cut CPU/PG by 40%, cut speed 30%, and reduce base SH/AR by 20%. Make militia LARGE turrets absolute garbage too-> Cut mot 80gj rail damage to 900 and 80gj blaster ROF by 35%
2) Increase militia tank cost to 150k and STD hulls to 200k. Now, the real tankers will not be affected, but mlt tnk spam is impossible because losing more than 1 puts the user in the hole for the next battle- just like a tank should.
A tank should be powerful, yes, but it should not be something deployed more than once in a pub match. At the same time, it should not take 7 battles to generate enough ISK to deploy one tank.
Right now, a good gunlogi/maddy cost 400k. A good sica/soma costs 80k. Most battles will give someone around 200k. Ratios are as follows: STD(2:1) MLT (1:2). It needs to change to: MLT(1:1). MEaning, losing 1 STD tank fit takes 2 battles to regernate, losing 1 militia takes 1 battle to regenerate.
If this change was implemented, we would no longer see people spamming tanks because it bumps their KDR because most somas/sicas do not survive an entire battle- especially if there is a real tanker on the other team. Because of this, only expert tankers and those curious about driving tanks all deploy tanks. MLT tanks will still be powerful and accessible, STD well fitted tanks will not be only accessible to the rich, and infantry can enjoy a game with much less tank spam than we have now, while still delighting in the 3-Dimensional battlefield that 1.7 has brought us.
I agree with you. But there's another angle you're missing. I started running MLT tanks today. I FG quite a bit when I need AV. It's really fun, and I enjoy both the thrill of the hunt with one and the stress of pulling off a perfectly aligned shot leading a target. It's my go to AV when I have to swap out of my logibro to tackle the challenges of a changing battlefield.
The problem with running forges in 1.7? There are too many targets, and most of them are interweaving around each other. When I actually CAN get a drop on a forge my DPS is usually JUST enough that I can scare it before it can find cover. I find myself going for infantry targets over vehicle targets in tank heavy games because it feels less futile than wasting ammo and exposing myself to incoming fire to delay a tank pilot 30 seconds.
So, today I figured I'd fire up a rail Sica and see what I could do with that. My second game in I got 6 tank kills. The 4th or 5th I got double digit vehicle kills. People are spamming tanks because it's the only option some of us have left. I could swap back to AV and just sweat it out and hope for a single tank kill by some coordinated AV, or apparently I can just sit in a Sica and pick off targets with impunity.
That's a big part of the issue, I think. AV is not rewarding enough so no one's using it. The balance needs to be reworked in multiple ways before people are comfortable switching back out of tanks to get things done. Until that's handled this is what we all get. Trust me, as much fun as it is I'm not doing as much for my team riding a rail instead of being on the ground handling logistics. And I get far less WP from it. But when your team NEEDS AV and nothing else works what else are you supposed to do?
And just for the record the tanks I've ran into are about 2 or 3:1 ratio MLT to STD. So, cutting the amount of MLT tanks would certainly help a few things, but it's a bandaid that's not completely addressing the issues. |
Ghost Kaisar
Titans of Phoenix
1405
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:lol. I think Atiim is the most hated person since Lueko and Checkmate
I still hate Kobrah more.
Minmatar Faction Warfare: Let's get Organized
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Rusty Shallows
630
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
The facts are pretty clear, HAVs are OP. You can call that QQ but the truth doesn't change.
No on the Nerfing. The one thing the Devs did right was grant everyone access to the craziness. Besides nerfing Militia HAVs would be the first step in making Uprising just like late Chromosome. We know where things will go from there.
I can agree on the pricing via principle. Not sure on the numbers, rather no clue since the payment system is FUBAR. It wouldn't hurt for us to wait and see if 1.8 will bring some kind of radical drop to suit/gear prices. So other than KDR the problem might actually be solved by the Devs.
If CCP really wants to cut back on the tomfoolery then they can change the forward sponson seat to the main turret control. That much power should require teamwork? Along with finally adding vehicle access permissions set in the Options section of the Neo Com to prevent other problems. What I like best on this option is no need for nerfs.
MCC Lounge Lizard
Forums > Game
Fix the game CCP
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Stinker Butt
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
286
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
I just took my noob alt and ran 4 matches with a Sica, and no mods. took first place every match and didn't die until the very end - that was to a redline rail tank. I lost 59k out of 4 matches. You can make them 150k if you want, but they're still OP. Everyone does it because they're easy wins. Gunnlogi and Madruger are even easier wins.
Please give tanks some balance
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution
1339
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Stinker Butt wrote:I just took my noob alt and ran 4 matches with a Sica, and no mods. took first place every match and didn't die until the very end - that was to a redline rail tank. I lost 59k out of 4 matches. You can make them 150k if you want, but they're still OP. Everyone does it because they're easy wins. Gunnlogi and Madruger are even easier wins.
Gunlogi/Maddy are more costly and not spammable because of it.
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
5196
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:lol. I think Atiim is the most hated person since Lueko and Checkmate
Oh wow, I could feel the heat of that burn through my monitor.
Could also be radiation. If the latter, bury me with my stuff.
Never forget
How to fix the Logi
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Stinker Butt
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
287
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 07:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Stinker Butt wrote:I just took my noob alt and ran 4 matches with a Sica, and no mods. took first place every match and didn't die until the very end - that was to a redline rail tank. I lost 59k out of 4 matches. You can make them 150k if you want, but they're still OP. Everyone does it because they're easy wins. Gunnlogi and Madruger are even easier wins. Gunlogi/Maddy are more costly and not spammable because of it.
When you don't die, there's no need to spam anything.
Please give tanks some balance
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Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
758
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 08:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
it's costs a lot of ISK argument is a weak one in support of a high KDR since AT PRESENT ISK is dirt cheap in this game.
Also it starts a slippery slope toward 'pay to win' - I don't need to explain why I hope. I am sure CCP would want to end up with a covert 'pay to win' game but we should not make it too easy for them.
Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
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Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light
Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
160
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 08:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rule #1
If CEOPyrex starts using an item consistently, it is OP.
(it isn't overpowered because he uses it, it is OP so he uses it)
Rule #2
Tryhards all flocking to the same thing? It is OP.
Rule #3
If the best counter to something is itself: OP.
Three simple rules, they never fail. |
Tectonious Falcon
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
828
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 08:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
Most of these militia tank spammers are terribad and can be dealt with easily enough if they're alone - it's the fact that there's 4 or 5 people constantly bringing in new tanks and blobbing together that's an issue for me.
"If your enemy is equal prepare for him, if greater elude him, if weaker.... crush him"
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
Legacy Rising
49
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Posted - 2013.12.31 08:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
The price and power of MLT tanks i think is just fine. New players should have access to tanks, and decide if thats' the role they want to specialize in. You forget how expensive in ISK it is for new players who have to spend quite a lot just to get any skill books, let alone running tanks continually.
Most of them are getting wiped out by experienced tankers. I've noticed an over all reduction in tank spam. Also, good AV squads, the kind that set up RE ambushes, jihad jeeps, deploy proximity mines, forge guns, and wyrokami swarms are starting to take take their toll.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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NAV HIV
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
672
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 13:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Stop ruining the good name of those who stayed with tanks from 1.0-.1.7
You are no better than the Duvolle/Gallogi tryhards of 1.7 or the MD/Flaylock/Callogis of 1.4 or callogi/Tars of 1.0; you disgust me. I want you to know that I dedicate every battle to hunting you down and farming your SP-less death machines like a Thale farms Frontline suits.
Cease and desist or I will QQ until a visit to the GD section makes your skull bleed.
To those who QQ about tanks being "OP":
No, REAL tanks are not OP. They cost around half a million ISK and losing 1 puts us in debt for the next 2-3 battles. That is PERFECT. 7 was ridiculous, but so is 1/3- like the soma and sica fits which cost 80k- I can lose 3 and still profit in a good battle. That is broken. That is why tanks are being spammed. These leaves us with 2 options, which I, as the Highest Level Unicorn, have deemed best choice:
1) Nerf militia tanksGǪGǪjust kidding. What this does is give no truly effective counter to the real tankers who will roflstomp infantry otherwise. Having powerful militia tank is necessary to keep tanks in check, when one is not a 'tanker'.
1.5) Buff AV. Sounds great until you realize that dropships are finally becoming useful, and an AV buff would knock them back into the dark ages.
1.6) Award 10 WP / 1000 DMG inflicted vs vehicles w/ AV weapons
2) Increase militia tank cost to 150k and STD hulls to 200k. Now, the real tankers will not be affected, but mlt tnk spam is impossible because losing more than 1 puts the user in the hole for the next battle- just like a tank should.
A tank should be powerful, yes, but it should not be something deployed more than once in a pub match. At the same time, it should not take 7 battles to generate enough ISK to deploy one tank.
Right now, a good gunlogi/maddy cost 400k. A good sica/soma costs 80k. Most battles will give someone around 200k. Ratios are as follows: STD(2:1) MLT (1:2). It needs to change to: MLT(1:1). MEaning, losing 1 STD tank fit takes 2 battles to regernate, losing 1 militia takes 1 battle to regenerate.
If this change was implemented, we would no longer see people spamming tanks because it bumps their KDR because most somas/sicas do not survive an entire battle- especially if there is a real tanker on the other team. Because of this, only expert tankers and those curious about driving tanks all deploy tanks. MLT tanks will still be powerful and accessible, STD well fitted tanks will not be only accessible to the rich, and infantry can enjoy a game with much less tank spam than we have now, while still delighting in the 3-Dimensional battlefield that 1.7 has brought us.
Also, award WP/DMG when using AV weapons
1. Militia tanks are cheap. almost 3 tanks for the cost of 1 proper AV suit. LOL
2.AV is useless. Jihad works a lot better. AV vs Tank right now, is well laughable. Anyone who says they are balanced is either a KDR ho ho or too afraid to fight fair. Tanks had a lot of issues before 1.7. But right now they are great. It would've been fine if CCP didn't nerf Proto AV to oblivion. Standard and militia tier should be on the same page with sica, soma. But two AV players with full efficiency can't fight a Soma lol
3. Dropships have bigger things to worry about. Not swarms or Forges. They have to deal with Rail Turrets.
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
1457
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 14:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:
1) Nerf militia tanksGǪGǪjust kidding. What this does is give no truly effective counter to the real tankers who will roflstomp infantry otherwise. Having powerful militia tank is necessary to keep tanks in check, when one is not a 'tanker'.
Except militia tanks are often used to kill infantry not other tanks.
1.5) Buff AV. Sounds great until you realize that dropships are finally becoming useful, and an AV buff would knock them back into the dark ages.
Buff AV or not it doesn't matter for dropships rail guns and rail installations reign hell on dropships, it only takes 2 shots regardless of the dropship, soreally a dropship HP buff is greatly needed along with a AV buff.
1.6) Award 10 WP / 1000 DMG inflicted vs vehicles w/ AV weapons
2) Increase militia tank cost to 150k and STD hulls to 200k. Now, the real tankers will not be affected, but mlt tnk spam is impossible because losing more than 1 puts the user in the hole for the next battle- just like a tank should.
Lol 10 WP for 1000 damage if only I could hit 1000 damage. At least 500 during hardened phase.
A tank should be powerful, yes, but it should not be something deployed more than once in a pub match. At the same time, it should not take 7 battles to generate enough ISK to deploy one tank.
Right now, a good gunlogi/maddy cost 400k. A good sica/soma costs 80k. Most battles will give someone around 200k. Ratios are as follows: STD(2:1) MLT (1:2). It needs to change to: MLT(1:1). MEaning, losing 1 STD tank fit takes 2 battles to regernate, losing 1 militia takes 1 battle to regenerate.
If this change was implemented, we would no longer see people spamming tanks because it bumps their KDR because most somas/sicas do not survive an entire battle- especially if there is a real tanker on the other team. Because of this, only expert tankers and those curious about driving tanks all deploy tanks. MLT tanks will still be powerful and accessible, STD well fitted tanks will not be only accessible to the rich, and infantry can enjoy a game with much less tank spam than we have now, while still delighting in the 3-Dimensional battlefield that 1.7 has brought us.
Also, award WP/DMG when using AV weapons
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Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
162
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 14:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
I was informed that running scrub tank fits was the appropriate way to run AV these days? If not feel free to let me know how to adapt without spending 2 mil SP.
K thx bye. |
trraacx
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 14:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
There are maps that tanks are dominate on but for most they accomplish little if your goal is to win a match.
They are so fast now that I've often been caught in the open but not noticed because the tanker is high balling
it to some unseen easy kill.
I say let people have their fun. Boosting forge guns a bit would be good. A heavy in the open with a forge gun is pretty useless for anything but attacking tanks but it is futile for anything other than making the tanker go away for a bit. |
Elba Hekki
Blue-Fire Ground
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 14:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
You could actually improve anti tank weapons, the trick is to reduce damage against anything flying so it scales correctly. Lots of damage against a slow moving large ground target, less versus a fast moving flying moving target.
Maybe implement flares for the missiles for airborne craft? |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
637
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 15:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ander Thedas wrote:
I agree with you. But there's another angle you're missing. I started running MLT tanks today. I FG quite a bit when I need AV. It's really fun, and I enjoy both the thrill of the hunt with one and the stress of pulling off a perfectly aligned shot leading a target. It's my go to AV when I have to swap out of my logibro to tackle the challenges of a changing battlefield.
The problem with running forges in 1.7? There are too many targets, and most of them are interweaving around each other. When I actually CAN get a drop on a forge my DPS is usually JUST enough that I can scare it before it can find cover. I find myself going for infantry targets over vehicle targets in tank heavy games because it feels less futile than wasting ammo and exposing myself to incoming fire to delay a tank pilot 30 seconds.
So, today I figured I'd fire up a rail Sica and see what I could do with that. My second game in I got 6 tank kills. The 4th or 5th I got double digit vehicle kills. People are spamming tanks because it's the only option some of us have left. I could swap back to AV and just sweat it out and hope for a single tank kill by some coordinated AV, or apparently I can just sit in a Sica and pick off targets with impunity.
That's a big part of the issue, I think. AV is not rewarding enough so no one's using it. The balance needs to be reworked in multiple ways before people are comfortable switching back out of tanks to get things done. Until that's handled this is what we all get. Trust me, as much fun as it is I'm not doing as much for my team riding a rail instead of being on the ground handling logistics. And I get far less WP from it. But when your team NEEDS AV and nothing else works what else are you supposed to do?
And just for the record the tanks I've ran into are about 2 or 3:1 ratio MLT to STD. So, cutting the amount of MLT tanks would certainly help a few things, but it's a bandaid that's not completely addressing the issues.
I think you and the OP basically have the crux of things. When a milita tank is the cheapest and most effective AV you have and gives you a tasty side dish of crushing infantry...recipe for tank spam.
Keep tanks and AV at the same stats...increase tank cost and decrease infantry costs, give some WP for AV damage dealt. Honestly, I would like CCP to come up with a way to tweak this without touching game stats for once.
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution
1344
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 15:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
tanks are too easyGǪI hate to admit it but they are OP. However, I would like to NOT double buff/nerf them again and cause a 1.0 twice. We should wait until 1.8 to seriously start considering big changes to pricing because this is something the meta is already solving- I'm noticing more and more tanks per battle which means there are usually 2 battles going on at once. If the problem does not fix itself by 1.9, I'd say more than pricing changes are in order, and I'd support a series of small nerds until Pyrex stops using them.
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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CRYPT3C W0LF
Krullefor Organization
Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 15:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
I cant hear you over the sound of my 60 wp's
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster"
Friedrich Nietzsche-
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Monkey MAC
Lost Millennium
1357
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 15:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
How is there nothing wrong with 'REAL' tanks? The only way 'REAL' tanks could be balanced by comparison to there WEAKER counterparts is if you consider tank spam a problem.
Which poses a lot of questions.
What's wrong with plenty of tanks? It's like saying the Plasma Cannon is overpowered because I went against a team who only used Plasma cannons.
What's wrong with everyone having access to tanks? Its meant to be all out war around here, the tank threat should be constant.
Why can't we use 0SP tanks? Didn't you tell us that we should be countering tanks with tanks?
Why can't tanks be cheap? Why should tanks be reserved for the chosen elite with enough money to run them?
Also I severly disagree with the use of ISK to balance spam, that's not the way to do, because you then get overpowered weapons only the rich, or those using aurum can wield, which is counterproductive. You should not balance on ISK, but price should be determined by balance. Therefore a balanced aspect will have an ISK value that reflects its survivability and usefulness on the battlefield.
REAL tanks are in no way balanced, you cannot at this point in time defend against any tank without the use of a squads worth of AV, or using your own tank.
The first is throughly impractical, the second you sit and complain about. Tanks need to be around often enough that a squad will consider running wjth one member as Full Time AV.
1.7 tanks were grossly underpowered not gonna deny that, but in this iteration tanks are grossly overpowered.
Tanks 514
I told you, I bloody well told you.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution
1346
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 16:02:00 -
[31] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:How is there nothing wrong with 'REAL' tanks? The only way 'REAL' tanks could be balanced by comparison to there WEAKER counterparts is if you consider tank spam a problem.
Which poses a lot of questions.
What's wrong with plenty of tanks? It's like saying the Plasma Cannon is overpowered because I went against a team who only used Plasma cannons.
What's wrong with everyone having access to tanks? Its meant to be all out war around here, the tank threat should be constant.
Why can't we use 0SP tanks? Didn't you tell us that we should be countering tanks with tanks?
Why can't tanks be cheap? Why should tanks be reserved for the chosen elite with enough money to run them?
Also I severly disagree with the use of ISK to balance spam, that's not the way to do, because you then get overpowered weapons only the rich, or those using aurum can wield, which is counterproductive. You should not balance on ISK, but price should be determined by balance. Therefore a balanced aspect will have an ISK value that reflects its survivability and usefulness on the battlefield.
REAL tanks are in no way balanced, you cannot at this point in time defend against any tank without the use of a squads worth of AV, or using your own tank.
The first is throughly impractical, the second you sit and complain about. Tanks need to be around often enough that a squad will consider running wjth one member as Full Time AV.
1.7 tanks were grossly underpowered not gonna deny that, but in this iteration tanks are grossly overpowered.
I agree with you that they are overpowered. It is a very controversial issue and extremely complicated. A MLT tank nerd, iso increase, hardener nerd, and a swarm buff might all be required to balance tanks, though these changes must be very conservative. I want tanks to be challenging again.
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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axis alpha
Red Star.
EoN.
129
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Posted - 2013.12.31 16:12:00 -
[32] - Quote
Crimson Cerberes wrote:Rule #1
If CEOPyrex starts using an item consistently, it is OP.
(it isn't overpowered because he uses it, it is OP so he uses it)
Rule #2
Tryhards all flocking to the same thing? It is OP.
Rule #3
If the best counter to something is itself: OP.
Three simple rules, they never fail.
That's so got damn ignorant.
The best part of waking up,
is whiskey in my cuuuuup!
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King Kobrah
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
1426
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 16:14:00 -
[33] - Quote
I love popping both militia damage mods on my militia railgun on my militia tank to blow up a madrugar someone dumped 10m sp into
Tank babby tears are delicious. |
Benjamin Ciscko
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
1068
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 16:25:00 -
[34] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:*watches Atiim slowly circle the thread* i feel like he has a list of tankers and he watches the GD section, refreshing every 10 seconds, and check the top posts, to check if one of us authored it, if so, then he clicks and says something along the lines of "stupid tankers, don't bother arguing with them." Then All 20 of us swarm on him and then I post a picture of him going 2/9 in a pub and then everyone calls him bad and I comment that he may be mad because he is bad, and so forth. I don't like Atiim. He is not my friend. Twilight Sparkle and the Mane 6 are my friends.
I once had a thread almost slip past him though but he caught it on the second page.
Tanker/Assault
Can I have my ADV and PRO tanks now (Honeyed Lamb enroute).
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ROMULUS H3X
research lab
14
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Posted - 2013.12.31 16:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
All I do is Forge, since I am dedicated to this one role (22mil sp into Forge and Forge accessories) I take down ALL tanks, ALL dropships, ALL jeeps. Over the past month I've noticed so many people complaining about Tank spam and Tankbushes... Honestly I personally don't mind the tanks, they all get blown up soon enough. The true and real problem to this is that the Pilot suits are not yet released, once that factor is adding into the equation you will see a lot less people calling in tanks while wearing their Proto assault suits or Proto heavys just because they know they can hop out of the tank in HALF A FUCKIN SECOND and chase you down while you are using a Forge gun( or swarmer). Not saying I don't point blank forge some of these tankers that hop out... I just shouldn't have to always kill the tank THEN have to chase down the god dam pilot.
All in all, there are just 2 main flaws that need to be balanced- the fact that the MLT ones are apparently too cheap which I don't think needs to even be mentioned it's such common knowledge and the fact that pilots can pretty much EJECT from a tank in a millisecond...... GO DOWN WITH YOUR SHIPS YOU ROTTEN TANKERS, thank you have a good day :) |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
1448
|
Posted - 2013.12.31 16:46:00 -
[36] - Quote
Benjamin Ciscko wrote:Charlotte O'Dell wrote:TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:*watches Atiim slowly circle the thread* i feel like he has a list of tankers and he watches the GD section, refreshing every 10 seconds, and check the top posts, to check if one of us authored it, if so, then he clicks and says something along the lines of "stupid tankers, don't bother arguing with them." Then All 20 of us swarm on him and then I post a picture of him going 2/9 in a pub and then everyone calls him bad and I comment that he may be mad because he is bad, and so forth. I don't like Atiim. He is not my friend. Twilight Sparkle and the Mane 6 are my friends. I once had a thread almost slip past him though but he caught it on the second page.
Now now, somebody has to have impossibly biased opinions on the AV side to counter Spkr4TheDead. They are the yin and yang of Dust AV vs pilots.
I very much like the idea of points for damage vs vehicles, because honestly area denial is about the best you can hope for with even a proto swarm launcher against any non-reckless tank at present. And that's fine, I would argue that proto AV should be a bit more effective against a (dirt-cheap!) militia vehicle, but obviously I should not have been able to solo a 500k+ ISK tank as easily as I could a month ago.
Give me points for area denial and maybe make milita tanks a little more expensive and maybe I'll undelete my AV suit fitting. Until then, I'm off to build my own AV tanks....
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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Flix Keptick
Red Star.
EoN.
3198
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Posted - 2013.12.31 17:51:00 -
[37] - Quote
Very good read. I personally think that if solution 1.6 and 2 were implemented than tanks would become extremely close to perfect balance (cause we still need webs)
Lack of content makes stuff broken...
Tank driver // specialized tank destroyer
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Monkey MAC
Lost Millennium
1359
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Posted - 2013.12.31 19:44:00 -
[38] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:How is there nothing wrong with 'REAL' tanks? The only way 'REAL' tanks could be balanced by comparison to there WEAKER counterparts is if you consider tank spam a problem.
Which poses a lot of questions.
What's wrong with plenty of tanks? It's like saying the Plasma Cannon is overpowered because I went against a team who only used Plasma cannons.
What's wrong with everyone having access to tanks? Its meant to be all out war around here, the tank threat should be constant.
Why can't we use 0SP tanks? Didn't you tell us that we should be countering tanks with tanks?
Why can't tanks be cheap? Why should tanks be reserved for the chosen elite with enough money to run them?
Also I severly disagree with the use of ISK to balance spam, that's not the way to do, because you then get overpowered weapons only the rich, or those using aurum can wield, which is counterproductive. You should not balance on ISK, but price should be determined by balance. Therefore a balanced aspect will have an ISK value that reflects its survivability and usefulness on the battlefield.
REAL tanks are in no way balanced, you cannot at this point in time defend against any tank without the use of a squads worth of AV, or using your own tank.
The first is throughly impractical, the second you sit and complain about. Tanks need to be around often enough that a squad will consider running wjth one member as Full Time AV.
1.7 tanks were grossly underpowered not gonna deny that, but in this iteration tanks are grossly overpowered. I agree with you that they are overpowered. It is a very controversial issue and extremely complicated. A MLT tank nerd, iso increase, hardener nerd, and a swarm buff might all be required to balance tanks, though these changes must be very conservative. I want tanks to be challenging again.
Good, however the mlt variants don't need a nerf, in their current they can fight off skilled in tankers with superior tactics and position - which is how it should be.
Like I said above, don't increase the price of tanks UNTIL tanks are balanced, ISK isn't a balancing tool.
However I do agree on nerfing hardners in some way or another, we don't need to nerf the strength or time of hardeners, what we do need to do is add stacking penalties to them to make cycling them impossible and to discourage the use of multiple hardners (both one after the other, or at the same time).
AV could do with a little damage back, Proto AV should be strong enough to make a std tank with ADV modules soil his trousers, SOLO. However unless the AV is part of a vehicle squad, it shouldn't be worthwhile chasing it for the kill.
Tanks 514
I told you, I bloody well told you.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
260
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Posted - 2013.12.31 20:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
How can you tell when someone is a tank scrub ??? Does a Gunnlogi or a Madrugar that uses militia turrets and mods constitute a tank scrub ??? Is it just those who use militia tanks that are considered tank scrubs ??? How do you know that they don't have SP's invested into the core items and mods and if so , would you still consider then tank scrubs ???
What if someone who uses high end items on their tank because they know it's easier to destroy a militia tank ... instead of facing them with militia tanks , one on one ( hell they already have the advantage of SP's invested ) and if the militia tank still destroys them are they still considered a tank scrub ???
What I'm getting at is that EVERYONE starts somewhere and in all actuality being a tank vet doesn't make you better than one who is just starting to speck or those who have not specked at all into tanks . They might have SP's into the core and mods for all you know . No one should be called a scrub because one day you might get smashed by that same scrub and then you will be considered the scrub .
Everyone has to start somewhere . When the prototype tanks come out then all the garbage talking can start but right now it's just too early to be calling anyone a scrub . High end gear , as everybody knows , can actually hide someone's flaws and weaknesses .
Stand toe to toe with the same fits and see what the results will be and that would be tipped in those who consider themselves pro's favor because of the skill points present , if they are placed into the right places .
Let your game speak for it's self and stop the name calling and insults . I know for a fact that a " REAL TANKER " doesn't have to keep on letting everyone know that and second they don't insult other tankers because they started on the bottom just like those who are attempting to establish themselves now are doing .
" BANE " of ALL vehicle users , Crush , Kill and Destroy ALL vehicles !!!!!
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
Public Disorder.
166
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Posted - 2013.12.31 20:14:00 -
[40] - Quote
Well said, Shinobi. I don't get all the looking down at others thing that seems to go along with tankers (and frankly, many people on this forum).
What happened to respecting your competition?
At the end of the day there will always be someone better than you. If not now, eventually..... |
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Everything Dies
Chatelain Rapid Response
Gallente Federation
394
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Posted - 2013.12.31 20:24:00 -
[41] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Stop ruining the good name of those who stayed with tanks from 1.0-.1.7
You are no better than the Duvolle/Gallogi tryhards of 1.7 or the MD/Flaylock/Callogis of 1.4 or callogi/Tars of 1.0; you disgust me. I want you to know that I dedicate every battle to hunting you down and farming your SP-less death machines like a Thale farms Frontline suits.
Cease and desist or I will QQ until a visit to the GD section makes your skull bleed.
I'll stop calling in my militia rail tank just as soon as it's no longer the cheaper---and more effective--AV option when compared to my proto SL build. Hell, my scout + RE suit is more effective than swarms at this point.
Life is killing me.
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THUNDERGROOVE
ZionTCD
Public Disorder.
438
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Posted - 2013.12.31 20:42:00 -
[42] - Quote
Everything Dies wrote:I'll stop calling in my militia rail tank just as soon as it's no longer the cheaper---and more effective--AV option when compared to my proto SL build. Hell, my scout + RE suit is more effective than swarms at this point.
If you had half a brain you'd be able to deal with tanks with proper AV.
I'm sorry but that's honestly how it is.
Plant traps. Setup an ambush. Hell, position yourself in a half decent spot instead of standing in the middle of the road not even strafing in your "Anti-armor" fit. I will say that tanks accelerate a bit too fast but that hasn't stopped me from destroying every tank I've had to with pretty much every form of AV including a plasma cannon, forge, swarm, remotes, proprieties and hell I even popped a Soma with my HMG.
Not to mention I only have ADV plasma cannons, ADV swarms, PRO forge gun, ADV remotes and proxies.
Redline rail tank? What ever are you going to do?
- Get a dropship
- Get 3 friends who have AV fits
- Fly low and fast all the way to their redline
- Use afterburner as you get into the redline so he can't track you.
- Bail out and deal with him
If you don' t have friends and are somewhat decent at flying you can pack it with remotes and crash into him. Which is only the 3rd most scrubby tactic in DUST for dealing with tanks.
Teamwork > Skill
Teamwork wins matches.
ZionTCD Director & Ammar Loyalist
Amarr Sentinel | Amarr Logi | Losematar Scout
What is a signature?
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5218
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Posted - 2013.12.31 22:16:00 -
[43] - Quote
Buff AV and buff dropships in proportion to the AV buff?
Maybe?
No?
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Foundation Seldon
Gespenster Kompanie
335
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Posted - 2013.12.31 22:48:00 -
[44] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Everything Dies wrote:I'll stop calling in my militia rail tank just as soon as it's no longer the cheaper---and more effective--AV option when compared to my proto SL build. Hell, my scout + RE suit is more effective than swarms at this point. If you had half a brain you'd be able to deal with tanks with proper AV. I'm sorry but that's honestly how it is. Plant traps. Setup an ambush. Hell, position yourself in a half decent spot instead of standing in the middle of the road not even strafing in your "Anti-armor" fit. I will say that tanks accelerate a bit too fast but that hasn't stopped me from destroying every tank I've had to with pretty much every form of AV including a plasma cannon, forge, swarm, remotes, proprieties and hell I even popped a Soma with my HMG. Not to mention I only have ADV plasma cannons, ADV swarms, PRO forge gun, ADV remotes and proxies. Redline rail tank? What ever are you going to do?
- Get a dropship
- Get 3 friends who have AV fits
- Fly low and fast all the way to their redline
- Use afterburner as you get into the redline so he can't track you.
- Bail out and deal with him
If you don' t have friends and are somewhat decent at flying you can pack it with remotes and crash into him. Which is only the 3rd most scrubby tactic in DUST for dealing with tanks. Teamwork > Skill Teamwork wins matches.
Oh, please. This is a ridiculous post.
"Proper" AV is prohibitively expensive and, in most cases, simply isn't as effective. He's absolutely right to be using the tactics he's using. The fact that he's using the REAL counter to tanks (Large Rail + Damage mods) and NOT wasting his time with the damn near worthless incarnations of the Forge Gun (due to the speed buff) and Swarms (due to the everything) shows that he has more in the way of brainpower than anyone I see still wasting their times with a Proto Swarm / AV suit that costs more than the Tank he's trying to take out.
Remotes or Remotes + Vehicles
That's the only relevant infantry based AV, for everything else fit a Sica with 2 Damage Mods in the highs and go to town.
1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
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CYRAX SERVIUS
Death Firm.
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
412
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Posted - 2013.12.31 23:06:00 -
[45] - Quote
I am on both sides of the fence cause my alt is a tanker, "thanks charlotte for all the help a long long time ago" "Go honey badgers!!!!!!"
I've been doing pretty well with AV, solo'd quite a few maddy's with my wyrikomi's, but for the most part it takes a co-ordinated effort, which my AV guys are doing very well at.
Nav Hiv brought up a good point about drop ships, they are being used a LOT more, infantry,tanks, assault dropships that can chase off a tank makes for some interesting matches.
CEO
Invictus Maneo~ "I remain unvanquished"
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
224
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Posted - 2013.12.31 23:06:00 -
[46] - Quote
Crimson Cerberes wrote:Rule #3
If the best counter to something is itself: OP.
Dropships are good counters to HAVs. Unfortunately, the Redline prevents HAVs from having to actually expose themselves to danger. |
Scout Registry
208
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Posted - 2014.01.01 00:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
Hi O'Dell!
Good post. If I may ask your thoughts on ...
1) ... REs and RE-based tactics?
2) ... the state of infantry-based AV weapons?
3) ... current and future HAV count limits?
4) ... Hardeners and Hardener stacking?
5) ... HAV landspeed?
4) ... Nyain San swapping GalLogi spam for HAV spam?
@ Spkr / Ghosts Chance
I understand that you two are big boys now, and I know you are both very strong and very brave. But the above questions are for grown ups only, which is why I've specifically asked O'Dell. Thank you both. I know you're eager to help. I promise to make time for your derpa derp in other threads. |
BobThe 844-1 CakeMan
Murder Cakes Of Doom
1368
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 00:23:00 -
[48] - Quote
Crimson Cerberes wrote:Rule #1
If CEOPyrex starts using an item consistently, it is OP.
(it isn't overpowered because he uses it, it is OP so he uses it)
Rule #2
Tryhards all flocking to the same thing? It is OP.
Rule #3
If the best counter to something is itself: OP.
Three simple rules, they never fail.
a sniper breaks rule 3, so it's OP
AR's break rule 2, so they are OP
CEOPryex uses scouts so tht's OP
worst rules Ever.
Main - BobThe843CakeMan
Ringing for PC for a price, msg for details.
Prices are based on who ur facing and how i feel.
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Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
353
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Posted - 2014.01.01 00:31:00 -
[49] - Quote
IMHO a noob with a mlt tank is less of a scrub then a bunch of vets squading up to pubstomp in high SP tanks.
Henchmen21: Infantry
Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2885
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Posted - 2014.01.01 00:42:00 -
[50] - Quote
I say 10WP is way too little. I'd say something like 25WP.
As for your thoughts on lowering the cost to an extent, I doubt it considering how many people are already expecting a price increase and have purchased excess amounts of them (like 200 of them). But it is a step in the right direction.
I disagree with 1.5. To an extent. Buffing AV will not send Dropships back to the "Dark Ages". They now rely on a much higher eHP ceiling than they did in 1.6. On the other hand, outright buffing AV wouldn't really solve most of the problems we currently face.
I also must disagree with what your final statement in regards to the "3 Dimensional Battlefield we currently see in 1.7".
Uprising 1.7 has no 3 dimensional battlefield. The battlefield consits of 5 Tanks + 2 ADSs + 11 Infantry vs 14 Infantry + 2AV.
Also, what part of "Investing SP does not justify power" do you not get?
...
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2886
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Posted - 2014.01.01 00:50:00 -
[51] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:lol. I think Atiim is the most hated person since Lueko and Checkmate
Oh noes, I am hated.
King Checkmate? I'm actually quite fond of the guy (No homo)
Luekoplast? Don't know him.
...
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2886
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Posted - 2014.01.01 00:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:*watches Atiim slowly circle the thread* i feel like he has a list of tankers and he watches the GD section, refreshing every 10 seconds, and check the top posts, to check if one of us authored it, if so, then he clicks and says something along the lines of "stupid tankers, don't bother arguing with them." Then All 20 of us swarm on him and then I post a picture of him going 2/9 in a pub and then everyone calls him bad and I comment that he may be mad because he is bad, and so forth. I don't like Atiim. He is not my friend. Twilight Sparkle and the Mane 6 are my friends.
Not gonna lie, I actually kinda smirked at that first sentence.
Yes, I went 2/9 in a PUB match. Trying out PLCs for the 1st time in months does that to you. Shall I bake the cookies?
I'm not saying I'm a good player. In fact, I admit to being a not-so-good player. I have terrible gun-game, I can't go pull of scores like 30/0 or 60/0 unless I am using "special things". However, I can bet all of my ISK that if somebody was to record my game-play, it wouldn't be 2/9 bad. You can post the pics if you desire, for I am already admitting to going 2/9 in a PUB match.
I don't really like you either. Nor am I trying or wanting to be your friend. Working as Intended I assume?
...
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2886
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Posted - 2014.01.01 01:05:00 -
[53] - Quote
BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote:Crimson Cerberes wrote:Rule #1
If CEOPyrex starts using an item consistently, it is OP.
(it isn't overpowered because he uses it, it is OP so he uses it)
Rule #2
Tryhards all flocking to the same thing? It is OP.
Rule #3
If the best counter to something is itself: OP.
Three simple rules, they never fail. a sniper breaks rule 3, so it's OP AR's break rule 2, so they are OP CEOPryex uses scouts so tht's OP worst rules Ever.
I watched a video of CEOPyrex replace his Light Weapon Slot with Flaylock Pistols. I say Rule #1 has some weight behind it.
ARs aren't the best counter to themselves. I can 1-2 shot an AR user if I get the jump on them with a SCR, I'd melt an AR user with a RR if he's a good 20-30m away, and may God lay rest to the poor soul who attempts to face a CR user in CQC.
The ARs are balanced around themselves. Niche weapons, not so much.
...
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Saxbrin Shain
Ivory Vanguard
144
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Posted - 2014.01.01 01:37:00 -
[54] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Everything Dies wrote:I'll stop calling in my militia rail tank just as soon as it's no longer the cheaper---and more effective--AV option when compared to my proto SL build. Hell, my scout + RE suit is more effective than swarms at this point. If you had half a brain you'd be able to deal with tanks with proper AV. I'm sorry but that's honestly how it is. Plant traps. Setup an ambush. Hell, position yourself in a half decent spot instead of standing in the middle of the road not even strafing in your "Anti-armor" fit. I will say that tanks accelerate a bit too fast but that hasn't stopped me from destroying every tank I've had to with pretty much every form of AV including a plasma cannon, forge, swarm, remotes, proprieties and hell I even popped a Soma with my HMG. Not to mention I only have ADV plasma cannons, ADV swarms, PRO forge gun, ADV remotes and proxies. Redline rail tank? What ever are you going to do?
- Get a dropship
- Get 3 friends who have AV fits
- Fly low and fast all the way to their redline
- Use afterburner as you get into the redline so he can't track you.
- Bail out and deal with him
If you don' t have friends and are somewhat decent at flying you can pack it with remotes and crash into him. Which is only the 3rd most scrubby tactic in DUST for dealing with tanks. Teamwork > Skill Teamwork wins matches.
"Proper AV" means requiring 4 coordinated players, each in fits that cost more than a tank, to deal with a single enemy in a tank?
Nah. We'll just go with 4 Militia Rail Tanks for less and pop the tank like a pi+¦ata. HTFU.
IMMORTALS; From the Sands to the Stars
We fight until we die.
Then we fight some more.
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hgghyujh
Expert Intervention
Caldari State
211
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Posted - 2014.01.01 01:38:00 -
[55] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Stop ruining the good name of those who stayed with tanks from 1.0-.1.7
You are no better than the Duvolle/Gallogi tryhards of 1.7 or the MD/Flaylock/Callogis of 1.4 or callogi/Tars of 1.0; you disgust me. I want you to know that I dedicate every battle to hunting you down and farming your SP-less death machines like a Thale farms Frontline suits.
Cease and desist or I will QQ until a visit to the GD section makes your skull bleed.
To those who QQ about tanks being "OP":
No, REAL tanks are not OP. They cost around half a million ISK and losing 1 puts us in debt for the next 2-3 battles. That is PERFECT. 7 was ridiculous, but so is 1/3- like the soma and sica fits which cost 80k- I can lose 3 and still profit in a good battle. That is broken. That is why tanks are being spammed. These leaves us with 2 options, which I, as the Highest Level Unicorn, have deemed best choice:
1) Nerf militia tanksGǪGǪjust kidding. What this does is give no truly effective counter to the real tankers who will roflstomp infantry otherwise. Having powerful militia tank is necessary to keep tanks in check, when one is not a 'tanker'.
1.5) Buff AV. Sounds great until you realize that dropships are finally becoming useful, and an AV buff would knock them back into the dark ages.
1.6) Award 10 WP / 1000 DMG inflicted vs vehicles w/ AV weapons
2) Increase militia tank cost to 150k and STD hulls to 200k. Now, the real tankers will not be affected, but mlt tnk spam is impossible because losing more than 1 puts the user in the hole for the next battle- just like a tank should.
A tank should be powerful, yes, but it should not be something deployed more than once in a pub match. At the same time, it should not take 7 battles to generate enough ISK to deploy one tank.
Right now, a good gunlogi/maddy cost 400k. A good sica/soma costs 80k. Most battles will give someone around 200k. Ratios are as follows: STD(2:1) MLT (1:2). It needs to change to: MLT(1:1). MEaning, losing 1 STD tank fit takes 2 battles to regernate, losing 1 militia takes 1 battle to regenerate.
If this change was implemented, we would no longer see people spamming tanks because it bumps their KDR because most somas/sicas do not survive an entire battle- especially if there is a real tanker on the other team. Because of this, only expert tankers and those curious about driving tanks all deploy tanks. MLT tanks will still be powerful and accessible, STD well fitted tanks will not be only accessible to the rich, and infantry can enjoy a game with much less tank spam than we have now, while still delighting in the 3-Dimensional battlefield that 1.7 has brought us.
Also, award WP/DMG when using AV weapons
First of all go **** your self, tanks just became enjoyable to play, I'm no tank loyalist, but why should that keep me from playing something when ccp got it right???
Second tank spam is a good thing, that's how the game is suppose to be, vehicles at all times, now that said blaster is way too strong against infantry, swarms need a tweak(preferably dumb fire), and as you said WP for damage would help form a standing dedicated AV force which would allow all your boring infantry to fight on unbothered.
Third if they raise the price of tanks, they need to massively bonus the isk rewards for killing tanks. Or tanks will go away with only a few exceptions, which means there will be no dedicated AV for those few exceptions, making every one ***** that tanks are OP and unkillable, leading to tanks getting a further nerf.............. you get the Idea. |
Aizen Intiki
Hell's Gate Inc
625
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Posted - 2014.01.01 01:43:00 -
[56] - Quote
Also, the active modules up to enhanced needs nerfing. Why in the **** did Wolfman think it was a good idea to make them as good as the best ones?
"Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say
Alt of the great Godin
I like chocolate ^___^
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2887
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Posted - 2014.01.01 01:44:00 -
[57] - Quote
Aizen Intiki wrote:Also, the active modules up to enhanced needs nerfing. Why in the **** did Wolfman think it was a good idea to make them as good as the best ones?
So that Skill>SP.
Most hated person since Lueko and Checkmate
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Lorhak Gannarsein
952
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 01:52:00 -
[58] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Aizen Intiki wrote:Also, the active modules up to enhanced needs nerfing. Why in the **** did Wolfman think it was a good idea to make them as good as the best ones? So that Skill>SP.
Then what's the point of SP?
Might as well go play Battlefield.
PRO tanker and proud.
Lentarr Legionary.
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2887
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 01:54:00 -
[59] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Stinker Butt wrote:I just took my noob alt and ran 4 matches with a Sica, and no mods. took first place every match and didn't die until the very end - that was to a redline rail tank. I lost 59k out of 4 matches. You can make them 150k if you want, but they're still OP. Everyone does it because they're easy wins. Gunnlogi and Madruger are even easier wins. Gunlogi/Maddy are more costly and not spammable because of it.
97k Is not costly.
And the Federation Madrugar and State Gunnlogi throws your argument out the window,
Most hated person since Lueko and Checkmate
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2887
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 01:58:00 -
[60] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Atiim wrote:Aizen Intiki wrote:Also, the active modules up to enhanced needs nerfing. Why in the **** did Wolfman think it was a good idea to make them as good as the best ones? So that Skill>SP. Then what's the point of SP? Might as well go play Battlefield.
In terms of Tank vs Tank battles, little to none.
In terms of AV vs Tank battles, tons (assuming you don't just recall when your mods die like a smart person would).
Most hated person since Lueko and Checkmate
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Slightly-Mental
Planetary Research and Investments
26
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 02:02:00 -
[61] - Quote
HI
I am a Soma/Sica scrub
and here is why
1. AV needs to be fixed dont care what you say or think.. its ****** to the point of being useless.
2. snipping is bugged to hell, we still have the rendering bugs like you tankers had, along side hit detection bugs.
3. ITS FUN..
get points 1 and 2 fixed and then i'll probably play less in tanks
*its better being a scrub cos the game style forces you into that situation, than being a elitist scrub that thinks their **** doesn't stink
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Justin Tymes
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
573
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 02:39:00 -
[62] - Quote
Tanks are OP and need to be changed this upcoming patch, but I don't think people are scrubs for using the best available option. Militia tanks > Proto Infantry, so it's only logical to use tanks, especially when the best way to take down tanks is with another tank. |
Mortedeamor
1162
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 03:52:00 -
[63] - Quote
i may not have stuck with it as i have a very financial aproach and haveing proto amar logi heavy and assault was just to nice to pass up on..and while i do have a fleet of about 8k somas..i also have a variety of higher end havs thats range cost up to 300k and rising..i also and dedicating all sp as of 1.7 because i now have the 3 proto suits i wanted and im going to wait to specc suits intil ccp looks at ttk(financial thinker) ive already turned a profit of 75 mill isk from my 160k maddy and 170k gunlogi
come at me ill enjoy a good challenge tanks are allot of fun now that the price is cut down so much its very easy to profit and stomp in cheaper isk tanks..i can only imagine how awesome my cheaper tanks will be when they have 20+ mill sp dedicated.
you other tankers should really consider budget tanks to fun you max best gear..when you run in cheaper tanks you run better when you use your best tanks. and financially its a better way to do things as there is always that ******* whos only partially specced sitting in the cliffs with 2 x enhanced dmg mods ona mlt rail ina budget gunlogi that may just get you by suprise.
long for the moment where i have 30 + mill sp into tanks and 36+ mil sp into infantry and has my amarian death machine
why use suits when ccp gave us nice shiny op as hell tanks that cost next to nothing
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Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light
Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
180
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 08:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote:Crimson Cerberes wrote:Rule #1
If CEOPyrex starts using an item consistently, it is OP.
(it isn't overpowered because he uses it, it is OP so he uses it)
Rule #2
Tryhards all flocking to the same thing? It is OP.
Rule #3
If the best counter to something is itself: OP.
Three simple rules, they never fail. a sniper breaks rule 3, so it's OP AR's break rule 2, so they are OP CEOPryex uses scouts so tht's OP worst rules Ever.
Best counter to a sniper is a sniper? Not really, that would be a dropship.
I don't see anyone flocking to ARs anymore.... must mean that they aren't the most OP option.
CEOPYREX barely ever uses scouts anymore, instead he uses his tanks, or whatever with a rail rifle. Just go over his video history.
When lasers were op, pyrex was there with a viziam
When flaylocks were op, pyrex was there with acore
When FGs were OP, pyrex was there with an ishikune (sp?)
When ARs > all... pyrex was there with a duvolle
When scrambler rifles were becoming an OP option, pyrex was there with an AUR imperial
Now that tanks are OP, pyrex is there
Now that Rail rifles are OP, pyrex is therewith a Kaalokia (sp?)
Face it, when something is obviously OP, you will see him migrate to it in his videos. |
PARKOUR PRACTIONER
Redline Defense Force
Seekers of the Unseen
175
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 09:53:00 -
[65] - Quote
^ EPIC
'Don't talk to stranger, shoot them.' Snow LOCKOUT
I will never stop killing you.
Dropship Pilot/Ninja/Sniper
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PARKOUR PRACTIONER
Redline Defense Force
Seekers of the Unseen
175
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 09:55:00 -
[66] - Quote
He's just a follower with a NoobTube account.
YouTube isn't bad, just CEOPYREX abuses anything that's OP
and then talks about how balanced it is.
'Don't talk to stranger, shoot them.' Snow LOCKOUT
I will never stop killing you.
Dropship Pilot/Ninja/Sniper
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daishi mk03
BLACK-GUARD
Die Fremdenlegion
526
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 11:05:00 -
[67] - Quote
lol, tankers crying about MLT 0SP tanks who popped them is the new forum meta 2014.
Get used to it
To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin.
The Scriptures,Book of Missions
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PARKOUR PRACTIONER
Redline Defense Force
Seekers of the Unseen
175
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 11:07:00 -
[68] - Quote
^
'Don't talk to stranger, shoot them.' Snow LOCKOUT
I will never stop killing you.
Dropship Pilot/Ninja/Sniper
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demonkiller 12
G.L.O.R.Y
Public Disorder.
291
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 11:56:00 -
[69] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Stop ruining the good name of those who stayed with tanks from 1.0-.1.7
You are no better than the Duvolle/Gallogi tryhards of 1.7 or the MD/Flaylock/Callogis of 1.4 or callogi/Tars of 1.0; you disgust me. I want you to know that I dedicate every battle to hunting you down and farming your SP-less death machines like a Thale farms Frontline suits.
Cease and desist or I will QQ until a visit to the GD section makes your skull bleed.
To those who QQ about tanks being "OP":
No, REAL tanks are not OP. They cost around half a million ISK and losing 1 puts us in debt for the next 2-3 battles. That is PERFECT. 7 was ridiculous, but so is 1/3- like the soma and sica fits which cost 80k- I can lose 3 and still profit in a good battle. That is broken. That is why tanks are being spammed. These leaves us with 2 options, which I, as the Highest Level Unicorn, have deemed best choice:
1) Nerf militia tanksGǪGǪjust kidding. What this does is give no truly effective counter to the real tankers who will roflstomp infantry otherwise. Having powerful militia tank is necessary to keep tanks in check, when one is not a 'tanker'.
1.5) Buff AV. Sounds great until you realize that dropships are finally becoming useful, and an AV buff would knock them back into the dark ages.
1.6) Award 10 WP / 1000 DMG inflicted vs vehicles w/ AV weapons
2) Increase militia tank cost to 150k and STD hulls to 200k. Now, the real tankers will not be affected, but mlt tnk spam is impossible because losing more than 1 puts the user in the hole for the next battle- just like a tank should.
A tank should be powerful, yes, but it should not be something deployed more than once in a pub match. At the same time, it should not take 7 battles to generate enough ISK to deploy one tank.
Right now, a good gunlogi/maddy cost 400k. A good sica/soma costs 80k. Most battles will give someone around 200k. Ratios are as follows: STD(2:1) MLT (1:2). It needs to change to: MLT(1:1). MEaning, losing 1 STD tank fit takes 2 battles to regernate, losing 1 militia takes 1 battle to regenerate.
If this change was implemented, we would no longer see people spamming tanks because it bumps their KDR because most somas/sicas do not survive an entire battle- especially if there is a real tanker on the other team. Because of this, only expert tankers and those curious about driving tanks all deploy tanks. MLT tanks will still be powerful and accessible, STD well fitted tanks will not be only accessible to the rich, and infantry can enjoy a game with much less tank spam than we have now, while still delighting in the 3-Dimensional battlefield that 1.7 has brought us.
Also, award WP/DMG when using AV weapons
but tanks are op and everyone should spam them constantly so CCP make them top priority |
Lorhak Gannarsein
1006
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 13:17:00 -
[70] - Quote
Mortedeamor wrote:i may not have stuck with it as i have a very financial aproach and haveing proto amar logi heavy and assault was just to nice to pass up on..and while i do have a fleet of about 8k somas..i also have a variety of higher end havs thats range cost up to 300k and rising..i also am dedicating all sp as of 1.7 because i now have the 3 proto suits i wanted and im going to wait to specc suits intil ccp looks at ttk(financial thinker) ive already turned a profit of 75 mill isk from my 160k maddy and 170k gunlogi
come at me ill enjoy a good challenge tanks are allot of fun now that the price is cut down so much its very easy to profit and stomp in cheaper isk tanks..i can only imagine how awesome my cheaper tanks will be when they have 20+ mill sp dedicated.
you other tankers should really consider budget tanks to fund your max best gear..when you run in cheaper tanks you run better when you use your best tanks. and financially its a better way to do things as there is always that ******* whos only partially specced sitting in the cliffs with 2 x enhanced dmg mods ona mlt rail ina budget gunlogi that may just get you by surprise.
long for the moment where i have 30 + mill sp into tanks and 36+ mil sp into infantry and has my amarian death machine
Yeah basically this. I fitted out an MLT Blaster permahardened Gunnlogi today; 169k ISK. My favourite fitting by far. I actually managed to 1v1 some poor bastard in a PRO rail Madrugar :P more manouevrable, so he couldn't escape, faster acceleration, so he couldn't track, and permahardened, so I waited his hardeners out xD
I'm thinking I'm only going to drop in the rail for AV purposes; 2x damage mods, you die, I switch back.
PRO tanker and proud.
Lentarr Legionary.
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution
1372
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 16:19:00 -
[71] - Quote
Scout Registry wrote:Hi O'Dell!
Good post. If I may ask your thoughts on ...
1) ... REs and RE-based tactics?
2) ... the state of infantry-based AV weapons?
3) ... current and future HAV count limits?
4) ... Hardeners and Hardener stacking?
5) ... Veteran tank squads (i.e. the Nyain San effect)?
@ Spkr / Ghosts Chance
I understand that you two are big boys now, both so strong and brave. I appreciate that you're eager to help, but the above questions are for grown ups only, which is why I've specifically asked O'Dell. Thank you both for your understanding.
1) Perfectly fair and ingenious. It takes advantage of the hardener's weakness- the tanker must know it's coming and he rarely does.
2) Forges smash gunlogis with any less than 2 hardeners, swarms are horribly UP- even 2 pro swarms have trouble with a soma. their lock on range is fine, but they could use a higher DPS byGǪ15%
3) Needs to be changed for pubs. Ambushes should be limited to 1/team. Skirms/Doms should be 3/team. FW/PC no limits on HAV
4) Seems perfectly fair to me. When I do it, I have to give up A LOT of AV ability by losing dog mods, or speed, or the ability to recover from an ambush with a booster. It is a great tactic for the infantry stomping blaster tank who knows what is coming, but it sucks when you've been ambushed. The problem is that sicas and somas can use the tactic just as effectively. I'd propose making the duration of militia active modules much shorter than they are right now by 50%.
5) When you consider how many 'veteran tankers' there actually are (maybe 20-30), they're pretty rare, therefore, cause nowhere near the problem that the sica//soma spam does.
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution
1372
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 16:23:00 -
[72] - Quote
Atiim wrote:I say 10WP is way too little. I'd say something like 25WP.
As for your thoughts on lowering the cost to an extent, I doubt it considering how many people are already expecting a price increase and have purchased excess amounts of them (like 200 of them). But it is a step in the right direction.
I disagree with 1.5. To an extent. Buffing AV will not send Dropships back to the "Dark Ages". They now rely on a much higher eHP ceiling than they did in 1.6. On the other hand, outright buffing AV wouldn't really solve most of the problems we currently face.
I also must disagree with what your final statement in regards to the "3 Dimensional Battlefield we currently see in 1.7".
Uprising 1.7 has no 3 dimensional battlefield. The battlefield consits of 5 Tanks + 2 ADSs + 11 Infantry vs 14 Infantry + 2AV.
Also, what part of "Investing SP does not justify power" do you not get?
Then what does investing SP justify?
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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noob cavman
Tickle My Null-Sac
337
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 17:19:00 -
[73] - Quote
Soma/sica plus large miss turret and damage mods is my fav av toy
Hey mlt tank guess what my lav is ready and I GOT TWO TICKETS TO PARADISE!!!
Renegade minja fighting for the empress
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Everything Dies
Chatelain Rapid Response
Gallente Federation
400
|
Posted - 2014.01.01 21:20:00 -
[74] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:
I'm thinking I'm only going to drop in the rail for AV purposes; 2x damage mods, you die, I switch back.
Bingo. I don't bring in my tank until I see an enemy HAV/Dropship on the field; from then on, it's all about pushing tanks back and keeping them away from my infantry.
Far more effective and it costs 1/2 of what my proto swarm suit does...not to mention the fact that it only takes one of me in rail tank and not 3-4 infantry guys to counter the blaster tanks running roughshod over the battlefield.
Life is killing me.
|
Munin-Frey
Fish Spotters Inc.
68
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 03:33:00 -
[75] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Stop ruining the good name of those who stayed with tanks from 1.0-.1.7
You are no better than the Duvolle/Gallogi tryhards of 1.7 or the MD/Flaylock/Callogis of 1.4 or callogi/Tars of 1.0; you disgust me. I want you to know that I dedicate every battle to hunting you down and farming your SP-less death machines like a Thale farms Frontline suits.
Cease and desist or I will QQ until a visit to the GD section makes your skull bleed.
To those who QQ about tanks being "OP":
No, REAL tanks are not OP. They cost around half a million ISK and losing 1 puts us in debt for the next 2-3 battles. That is PERFECT. 7 was ridiculous, but so is 1/3- like the soma and sica fits which cost 80k- I can lose 3 and still profit in a good battle. That is broken. That is why tanks are being spammed. These leaves us with 2 options, which I, as the Highest Level Unicorn, have deemed best choice:
1) Nerf militia tanksGǪGǪjust kidding. What this does is give no truly effective counter to the real tankers who will roflstomp infantry otherwise. Having powerful militia tank is necessary to keep tanks in check, when one is not a 'tanker'.
1.5) Buff AV. Sounds great until you realize that dropships are finally becoming useful, and an AV buff would knock them back into the dark ages.
1.6) Award 10 WP / 1000 DMG inflicted vs vehicles w/ AV weapons
2) Increase militia tank cost to 150k and STD hulls to 200k. Now, the real tankers will not be affected, but mlt tnk spam is impossible because losing more than 1 puts the user in the hole for the next battle- just like a tank should.
A tank should be powerful, yes, but it should not be something deployed more than once in a pub match. At the same time, it should not take 7 battles to generate enough ISK to deploy one tank.
Right now, a good gunlogi/maddy cost 400k. A good sica/soma costs 80k. Most battles will give someone around 200k. Ratios are as follows: STD(2:1) MLT (1:2). It needs to change to: MLT(1:1). MEaning, losing 1 STD tank fit takes 2 battles to regernate, losing 1 militia takes 1 battle to regenerate.
If this change was implemented, we would no longer see people spamming tanks because it bumps their KDR because most somas/sicas do not survive an entire battle- especially if there is a real tanker on the other team. Because of this, only expert tankers and those curious about driving tanks all deploy tanks. MLT tanks will still be powerful and accessible, STD well fitted tanks will not be only accessible to the rich, and infantry can enjoy a game with much less tank spam than we have now, while still delighting in the 3-Dimensional battlefield that 1.7 has brought us.
Also, award WP/DMG when using AV weapons
Nice post. I like your ideas.
Also, I am impressed by your title, my liege. |
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2938
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 03:36:00 -
[76] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:
Then what does investing SP justify?
I didn't word that well.
What I meant to say was "SP does not justify the power that Madrugars/Gunnlogies have."
Most hated person since Lueko and Checkmate
|
Soldiersaint
Deepspace Digital
643
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 03:40:00 -
[77] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Stop ruining the good name of those who stayed with tanks from 1.0-.1.7
You are no better than the Duvolle/Gallogi tryhards of 1.7 or the MD/Flaylock/Callogis of 1.4 or callogi/Tars of 1.0; you disgust me. I want you to know that I dedicate every battle to hunting you down and farming your SP-less death machines like a Thale farms Frontline suits.
Cease and desist or I will QQ until a visit to the GD section makes your skull bleed.
To those who QQ about tanks being "OP":
No, REAL tanks are not OP. They cost around half a million ISK and losing 1 puts us in debt for the next 2-3 battles. That is PERFECT. 7 was ridiculous, but so is 1/3- like the soma and sica fits which cost 80k- I can lose 3 and still profit in a good battle. That is broken. That is why tanks are being spammed. These leaves us with 2 options, which I, as the Highest Level Unicorn, have deemed best choice:
1) Nerf militia tanksGǪGǪjust kidding. What this does is give no truly effective counter to the real tankers who will roflstomp infantry otherwise. Having powerful militia tank is necessary to keep tanks in check, when one is not a 'tanker'.
1.5) Buff AV. Sounds great until you realize that dropships are finally becoming useful, and an AV buff would knock them back into the dark ages.
1.6) Award 10 WP / 1000 DMG inflicted vs vehicles w/ AV weapons
2) Increase militia tank cost to 150k and STD hulls to 200k. Now, the real tankers will not be affected, but mlt tnk spam is impossible because losing more than 1 puts the user in the hole for the next battle- just like a tank should.
A tank should be powerful, yes, but it should not be something deployed more than once in a pub match. At the same time, it should not take 7 battles to generate enough ISK to deploy one tank.
Right now, a good gunlogi/maddy cost 400k. A good sica/soma costs 80k. Most battles will give someone around 200k. Ratios are as follows: STD(2:1) MLT (1:2). It needs to change to: MLT(1:1). MEaning, losing 1 STD tank fit takes 2 battles to regernate, losing 1 militia takes 1 battle to regenerate.
If this change was implemented, we would no longer see people spamming tanks because it bumps their KDR because most somas/sicas do not survive an entire battle- especially if there is a real tanker on the other team. Because of this, only expert tankers and those curious about driving tanks all deploy tanks. MLT tanks will still be powerful and accessible, STD well fitted tanks will not be only accessible to the rich, and infantry can enjoy a game with much less tank spam than we have now, while still delighting in the 3-Dimensional battlefield that 1.7 has brought us.
Also, award WP/DMG when using AV weapons
This post is beyond pointless. The only person who is a scrub here is you. Actually your more of a jerk then a scrub. People can play however they want. Shut up and play the game. |
Charlotte O'Dell
Fatal Absolution
1381
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 06:35:00 -
[78] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Charlotte O'Dell wrote:
Then what does investing SP justify?
I didn't word that well. What I meant to say was "SP does not justify the power that Madrugars/Gunnlogies have."
I agree with you. PRO tanks only deserve power like tht. these r standard level and should not be this powerful
Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
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