We had damage-based WP many moons ago but they were removed because of WP farming. Now, however, we have a global limiter that prevents mass-WP farming so it's definitely something I'd like to add back. If it's not possible to hot-fix in I'll poke the guys about getting in for 1.8. I think it's fair enough that you get rewarded for chasing off vehicles if not being able to outright destroy them.

That said, we hot-fixed the militia fuel injector last night. And right now we're testing increased recharge times on fuel injectors and slightly reduced speed on HAVs.

We had damage-based WP many moons ago but they were removed because of WP farming. Now, however, we have a global limiter that prevents mass-WP farming so it's definitely something I'd like to add back. If it's not possible to hot-fix in I'll poke the guys about getting in for 1.8. I think it's fair enough that you get rewarded for chasing off vehicles if not being able to outright destroy them.

That said, we hot-fixed the militia fuel injector last night. And right now we're testing increased recharge times on fuel injectors and slightly reduced speed on HAVs.

Hello.

So as usual with most of my longer posts, CCP I must state this is a general discussion not feedback nor any other board you feel necessary to place it in, while I would like you to read and take interest in the following ideas, I would like to start a discussion with the community, most of which spend their time in GD rather than feedback.

So onto the topic of my post, the balancing of AV and Vehicles. There's a problem and a rather large problem that presents itself currently, now before anyone QQs about me being an AV scrub crying about tanks, I am an experienced Tanker and many times I have been biased in the vehicle favour and despite loving this build (am loving it) there is a line in which must admit we're strong for what we are.

In this post I suggested we look at removing the speed of the Tanks, not just their nitrous injectors, but their overall movement speed, because it's unfair to those who wait around for their hardeners to drop, timing it correctly only to have the enemy speed away.

But I don't think this will be the end of balance, and I also don't think balance can be achieved with the current items in play. You see, if AVers and Tankers continue to ***** at one another and demand nerfs and buffs to their play styles, we're going to be in a never ending tug of war, personally it's not one I'm going to enjoy if we continue this, as many of you feel throughout these nerfs and buffs. Over time we've had godly tanks, then godly AV, then other random things and now we're here, Tanks are strong, AV isn't as strong but can still kill things though not very easily. Which while Tankers will claim it's only fair because teamwork makes tanks easy kills, so? Tanks using teamwork make for easy games full stop.

So what we actually need is more content, rather than fight over the same things as of old, we need new ways to kill each other. We've got a great platform right now, you cannot deny these things are a lot more challenging and fun to fight, especially if you're smart, but still (most of the time) offer a way to kill them through vulnerabilities in their actives.

So in list format, we need things like these:

• Speed Nerfs - Tanks run away too easily, it's ridiculous
• One Hardener on a fit - imo, though I do not speak the views of everyone, two-three hardener setups are ridiculous, and if we ever get advanced/proto tanks with these it's just going to be sad
• Webifiers - EVE Desc. These things would slow tanks down to a crawl, perhaps Grenade and Mine format, allow Infantry to trigger mines (or both, I'm not your mother)
• Webifier Counters - The ability to counter a webifier mine/grenade, by activating a module that sends out a wave removing the one that hit you, long cooldowns of course.
• EMP Weaponry - Weaponry that increases cooldowns, or removes the active on at the time, or just decreases the duration left on the vehicle
• EMP shielding - more sacrifices allowing you to be immune/less affected by EMP weapons

Honestly there's a lot more we can think of if we put our heads together offering viable attacks and counters to make it fair for both parties, it increases diversity and makes the game a lot more enjoyable for all.

And before people say "CCP needs to add all these graphics and effects for this to work", you don't. For webifiers, you need a funky sound effect, and maybe something showing the vehicle slowing down, but EMPs just need flux like animations.

Again, this platform is wonderful, it's more interesting and more of a laugh, numbers don't mean **** in tank battles any more either, just timing and tactics. If anything else should be added for tanks, it should be more viability to assist one another through the use of modules that buff/debuff other vehicles.

Thank you for reading, if you read this far, for the TL;DR just read the list and then say something about it, I'll answer you back asap, that is if anyone actually interested in reading this -¼_-¼

EDIT: IMPORTANT, NITROUS GLITCH IS FIXED.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=128294&find=unread

May I make a suggestion?
-Greatly reduce the damage and RoF for all turrets by 25% and have the operation bonus increase it by 5% per level
-Reduce the speed and torque for all HAVs by 50% and make HAV operation give 10% back per level.
As it currently stands anyone can pick up a militia stock fit HAV and completely dominate even seasoned vets. This suggestion would grant only those who spend the SP full power of the HAV. Tanks will still have the damage and speed they do now, you just have to get level 5 in order to use it.

Problem with that is that if you start new players out with the worst handling and worst performing tank possible, they'd hardly be incentivized to skill into it, and even if they were it wouldn't be terribly fun until they did, don't you think?

In a racing game, don't you ussually start out with a crappy car, with crappy handling, acceleration, top speed and braking ?

May I make a suggestion?
-Greatly reduce the damage and RoF for all turrets by 25% and have the operation bonus increase it by 5% per level
-Reduce the speed and torque for all HAVs by 50% and make HAV operation give 10% back per level.
As it currently stands anyone can pick up a militia stock fit HAV and completely dominate even seasoned vets. This suggestion would grant only those who spend the SP full power of the HAV. Tanks will still have the damage and speed they do now, you just have to get level 5 in order to use it.

May I make a suggestion?
-Greatly reduce the damage and RoF for all turrets by 25% and have the operation bonus increase it by 5% per level
-Reduce the speed and torque for all HAVs by 50% and make HAV operation give 10% back per level.
As it currently stands anyone can pick up a militia stock fit HAV and completely dominate even seasoned vets. This suggestion would grant only those who spend the SP full power of the HAV. Tanks will still have the damage and speed they do now, you just have to get level 5 in order to use it.

No, but 2 cplx hardeners leave only a 14 second engagement window.

I like these ideas, the more ways to engage the better, it makes intel gathering worth it as appose to "look tank, switch to my AV Swarm fit, never heard of the guy, let's roll with a STD setup" it felt good to rebuild a flux swarm fit last night. I bought a few AUR PLCs to give them a try also.

I may run out of fitting room though if we get all new grenades and equipment, I've already reached my limit.

I would like to make this suggestion though. Though I do agree that I'm here to kill vehicles, not detour them. I was in a game the night before last one peaks where two tank took the high ground above C, one was a Rail, the socket was the one where the hack point was completely exposed from that vantage point. C was unhackable on our side but the team managed to deny it to the reds also. Manus peaks, 4 - 5 minutes into the game and C is still yellow 0.o.

Anyway I knew I wasn't going to kill these fools alone, but I swapped to AV anyway and suppressed them for half the game. When 3-1, dealt over 50k damage, was the reason we were able to capture that point, was sitting like 12th on the leader board. It was boring as **** , but needed to be done.

What would be a fair way to compensate me for that that would not be exploitable? If there is an argument to be made about infantry doing there job if they are causing tanks to disengage, then we should be compensated for it, because there are times when it is the strategically correct thing to do. Thoughts there?

Another thing you didn't touch on was price. I think tanks were too expensive before, but now they are ridiculously Cheap. So cheap that it really isn't worth going after. The thing I think tankers forget is that I didn't start the game in an AV fit, by going after them I am no longer supporting my team, hacking points, or shooting reds which is what I WANT to be doing. I would never consider driving all the way to a supply depot to change out fits for a single proto merc on the field. Knowing that I am removing upwards of 500k average ISK was worth it.

Problem with that is that if you start new players out with the worst handling and worst performing tank possible, they'd hardly be incentivized to skill into it, and even if they were it wouldn't be terribly fun until they did, don't you think?

The main problem I have seen is lack of AV in FW and pub. I ran a ton of gallente and minmatar FW, about 15 games, and saw a whopping 4 people try to kill me with AV. Two when I was in an armor tank and two when I was in shield tanks. The first time in the armor tank I was in a madrugar with proto modules and they used standard swarms; very low threat level. The second time though, I got hit with proto swarms and dayum: about 2k damage off my 5k armor right away. Put my hardener on and got hit two more times, made it out with about 1300hp thanks to a brave building that sacrificed itself =(. With the shield tank, a different story. I saw the swarms coming this time, and hit my hardener and these proto swarms bounced off, I actually tried to run him over but he got pushed to the side of my tank and threw flux nades at me. Let me tell you, when you only have 3.3k shield hp fluxs hurt even with 60% dmg reduction. Proto av is still potent, it is just not as common. Now, maybe some things need to change but right now I think it's difficult to tell what changes are really needed, people are running around with rail rifles and combat rifles even when there are tanks right in front of them. If we had as many proto AV in matches now as we did before 1.7 none of these militia tanks would survive and then people would stop calling them in and go back to their suits, then the proto av can concentrate on the proto tanks and then we can see how this all works out.

With the current levels of tank speed i do expect webifiers to be put in next to counter act it

Also 1 hardener for each tank? lolno because without hardeners the tank is squishy as it is, thats the whole point of active hardeners but they come with a big consequence of PG/CPU

The issue is the balance of the "waves of opportunity" that underpins the current vehicle philosophy.

As I understand it the invulnerability of the active hardener is supposed to be balanced by the time the vehicle is out of the fight and in cool down. The pilot is doing 3x the damage for 1/3 the time.

If you increase the active time percentage you will throw off the balance unless you decrease the DPS done during the active phase.

If a HAV is doing 4x the damage of a light weapon and is nigh invulnerable 50% of the time it is worth two sets of boots on the ground. At that point it makes sense to have more tanks than infantry.

I understand the desire for more active time from a pilot's perspective, but we have to maintain an overall game balance or we will end up with TANK514.

So you put restrictions on tanks, what about infantry? 3dmg mods on a suit can be easily done but you dont hear about restrictions for infantry and thats double standards

If i have the skills to fit the mods i should be able to do so

If i want 3 hardeners on then thats my choice such as putting on 3 dmg mods on a suit

With 3 hardeners i may seem invulnrable but im not, a FG will hit me hard and sometimes i wish i had a 2nd hardener to put on at that moment and i run anyways but also i sacrifice the abilty to put on a dmg mod or a booster to kick start my shield regen

Once you start putting on restriction on things where does it stop? only 1 plate and repper allowed on everything now, this is supposed to be a game where you can put a sniper on a fat suit and no small turrets on your vehicles

Also your wrong on the HAV, i cant enter a building or go up the stairs and hack an objective, if i play FW and 3 obj are in a compound im useless, we dont have vehicle friendly maps to begin with because infantry has places they can move from and to where a tank cannot follow

The issue is the balance of the "waves of opportunity" that underpins the current vehicle philosophy.

As I understand it the invulnerability of the active hardener is supposed to be balanced by the time the vehicle is out of the fight and in cool down. The pilot is doing 3x the damage for 1/3 the time.

If you increase the active time percentage you will throw off the balance unless you decrease the DPS done during the active phase.

If a HAV is doing 4x the damage of a light weapon and is nigh invulnerable 50% of the time it is worth two sets of boots on the ground. At that point it makes sense to have more tanks than infantry.

I understand the desire for more active time from a pilot's perspective, but we have to maintain an overall game balance or we will end up with TANK514.

So you put restrictions on tanks, what about infantry? 3dmg mods on a suit can be easily done but you dont hear about restrictions for infantry and thats double standards

If i have the skills to fit the mods i should be able to do so

If i want 3 hardeners on then thats my choice such as putting on 3 dmg mods on a suit

With 3 hardeners i may seem invulnrable but im not, a FG will hit me hard and sometimes i wish i had a 2nd hardener to put on at that moment and i run anyways but also i sacrifice the abilty to put on a dmg mod or a booster to kick start my shield regen

Once you start putting on restriction on things where does it stop? only 1 plate and repper allowed on everything now, this is supposed to be a game where you can put a sniper on a fat suit and no small turrets on your vehicles

Also your wrong on the HAV, i cant enter a building or go up the stairs and hack an objective, if i play FW and 3 obj are in a compound im useless, we dont have vehicle friendly maps to begin with because infantry has places they can move from and to where a tank cannot follow

No, but 2 cplx hardeners leave only a 14 second engagement window.

I like these ideas, the more ways to engage the better, it makes intel gathering worth it as appose to "look tank, switch to my AV Swarm fit, never heard of the guy, let's roll with a STD setup" it felt good to rebuild a flux swarm fit last night. I bought a few AUR PLCs to give them a try also.

I may run out of fitting room though if we get all new grenades and equipment, I've already reached my limit.

I would like to make this suggestion though. Though I do agree that I'm here to kill vehicles, not detour them. I was in a game the night before last one peaks where two tank took the high ground above C, one was a Rail, the socket was the one where the hack point was completely exposed from that vantage point. C was unhackable on our side but the team managed to deny it to the reds also. Manus peaks, 4 - 5 minutes into the game and C is still yellow 0.o.

Anyway I knew I wasn't going to kill these fools alone, but I swapped to AV anyway and suppressed them for half the game. When 3-1, dealt over 50k damage, was the reason we were able to capture that point, was sitting like 12th on the leader board. It was boring as **** , but needed to be done.

What would be a fair way to compensate me for that that would not be exploitable? If there is an argument to be made about infantry doing there job if they are causing tanks to disengage, then we should be compensated for it, because there are times when it is the strategically correct thing to do. Thoughts there?

Another thing you didn't touch on was price. I think tanks were too expensive before, but now they are ridiculously Cheap. So cheap that it really isn't worth going after. The thing I think tankers forget is that I didn't start the game in an AV fit, by going after them I am no longer supporting my team, hacking points, or shooting reds which is what I WANT to be doing. I would never consider driving all the way to a supply depot to change out fits for a single proto merc on the field. Knowing that I am removing upwards of 500k average ISK was worth it.

If the game engine supported it then all you need to balance tanks going too fast is a shovel.

It worked since the dawn of tanks in real life.