DUST Search - Tank vs AV: In my opinion.

ratamaq doc wrote:

Roger Cordill wrote:

Message from Godin:

1: 10-15%speed or 20% acceleration nerf.

2: hardeners are fine. 2 hardener settups can't perma run it, and 3 has no repps. (Not sure if 3 can even perma run it)

No, but 2 cplx hardeners leave only a 14 second engagement window.

I like these ideas, the more ways to engage the better, it makes intel gathering worth it as appose to "look tank, switch to my AV Swarm fit, never heard of the guy, let's roll with a STD setup" it felt good to rebuild a flux swarm fit last night. I bought a few AUR PLCs to give them a try also.

I may run out of fitting room though if we get all new grenades and equipment, I've already reached my limit.

I would like to make this suggestion though. Though I do agree that I'm here to kill vehicles, not detour them. I was in a game the night before last one peaks where two tank took the high ground above C, one was a Rail, the socket was the one where the hack point was completely exposed from that vantage point. C was unhackable on our side but the team managed to deny it to the reds also. Manus peaks, 4 - 5 minutes into the game and C is still yellow 0.o.

Anyway I knew I wasn't going to kill these fools alone, but I swapped to AV anyway and suppressed them for half the game. When 3-1, dealt over 50k damage, was the reason we were able to capture that point, was sitting like 12th on the leader board. It was boring as **** , but needed to be done.

What would be a fair way to compensate me for that that would not be exploitable? If there is an argument to be made about infantry doing there job if they are causing tanks to disengage, then we should be compensated for it, because there are times when it is the strategically correct thing to do. Thoughts there?

Another thing you didn't touch on was price. I think tanks were too expensive before, but now they are ridiculously Cheap. So cheap that it really isn't worth going after. The thing I think tankers forget is that I didn't start the game in an AV fit, by going after them I am no longer supporting my team, hacking points, or shooting reds which is what I WANT to be doing. I would never consider driving all the way to a supply depot to change out fits for a single proto merc on the field. Knowing that I am removing upwards of 500k average ISK was worth it.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Jason Pearson 3300	Posted - 2013.12.13 00:43:00 - [1] - Quote Hello. So as usual with most of my longer posts, CCP I must state this is a general discussion not feedback nor any other board you feel necessary to place it in, while I would like you to read and take interest in the following ideas, I would like to start a discussion with the community, most of which spend their time in GD rather than feedback. So onto the topic of my post, the balancing of AV and Vehicles. There's a problem and a rather large problem that presents itself currently, now before anyone QQs about me being an AV scrub crying about tanks, I am an experienced Tanker and many times I have been biased in the vehicle favour and despite loving this build (am loving it) there is a line in which must admit we're strong for what we are. In this post I suggested we look at removing the speed of the Tanks, not just their nitrous injectors, but their overall movement speed, because it's unfair to those who wait around for their hardeners to drop, timing it correctly only to have the enemy speed away. But I don't think this will be the end of balance, and I also don't think balance can be achieved with the current items in play. You see, if AVers and Tankers continue to ***** at one another and demand nerfs and buffs to their play styles, we're going to be in a never ending tug of war, personally it's not one I'm going to enjoy if we continue this, as many of you feel throughout these nerfs and buffs. Over time we've had godly tanks, then godly AV, then other random things and now we're here, Tanks are strong, AV isn't as strong but can still kill things though not very easily. Which while Tankers will claim it's only fair because teamwork makes tanks easy kills, so? Tanks using teamwork make for easy games full stop. So what we actually need is more content, rather than fight over the same things as of old, we need new ways to kill each other. We've got a great platform right now, you cannot deny these things are a lot more challenging and fun to fight, especially if you're smart, but still (most of the time) offer a way to kill them through vulnerabilities in their actives. So in list format, we need things like these: Speed Nerfs - Tanks run away too easily, it's ridiculous One Hardener on a fit - imo, though I do not speak the views of everyone, two-three hardener setups are ridiculous, and if we ever get advanced/proto tanks with these it's just going to be sad Webifiers - EVE Desc. These things would slow tanks down to a crawl, perhaps Grenade and Mine format, allow Infantry to trigger mines (or both, I'm not your mother) Webifier Counters - The ability to counter a webifier mine/grenade, by activating a module that sends out a wave removing the one that hit you, long cooldowns of course. EMP Weaponry - Weaponry that increases cooldowns, or removes the active on at the time, or just decreases the duration left on the vehicle EMP shielding - more sacrifices allowing you to be immune/less affected by EMP weapons Honestly there's a lot more we can think of if we put our heads together offering viable attacks and counters to make it fair for both parties, it increases diversity and makes the game a lot more enjoyable for all. And before people say "CCP needs to add all these graphics and effects for this to work", you don't. For webifiers, you need a funky sound effect, and maybe something showing the vehicle slowing down, but EMPs just need flux like animations. Again, this platform is wonderful, it's more interesting and more of a laugh, numbers don't mean **** in tank battles any more either, just timing and tactics. If anything else should be added for tanks, it should be more viability to assist one another through the use of modules that buff/debuff other vehicles. Thank you for reading, if you read this far, for the TL;DR just read the list and then say something about it, I'll answer you back asap, that is if anyone actually interested in reading this -¼_-¼ King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3300	Posted - 2013.12.13 00:47:00 - [2] - Quote Cosgar wrote: I think the tank speed is an indication that we'll be getting webs in 1.8. Even if we do, tank speed still seems a little to fast. shrugs I say that because am running away a lot. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3306	Posted - 2013.12.13 01:35:00 - [3] - Quote BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote: i only use 1 hardener now. why use more? Lol. my 330 rep a sec tank is much more effective than 180 reps a sec with 2 hards. want to know why. because my tanks reps r insane. Bro. O_o Because Shield Tankers are dirty little fucks. Talk to a tanker "Why you using only 1 hardener bro? you can use two" because it's a dirty tactic and isn't playing fair, at all, you're just kidding yourself if you think you're good because of it. ambitter2daysin King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3307	Posted - 2013.12.13 02:05:00 - [4] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: Roger Cordill wrote: Message from Godin: 1: 10-15%speed or 20% acceleration nerf. 2: hardeners are fine. 2 hardener settups can't perma run it, and 3 has no repps. (Not sure if 3 can even perma run it) No, but 2 cplx hardeners leave only a 14 second engagement window. I like these ideas, the more ways to engage the better, it makes intel gathering worth it as appose to "look tank, switch to my AV Swarm fit, never heard of the guy, let's roll with a STD setup" it felt good to rebuild a flux swarm fit last night. I bought a few AUR PLCs to give them a try also. I may run out of fitting room though if we get all new grenades and equipment, I've already reached my limit. I would like to make this suggestion though. Though I do agree that I'm here to kill vehicles, not detour them. I was in a game the night before last one peaks where two tank took the high ground above C, one was a Rail, the socket was the one where the hack point was completely exposed from that vantage point. C was unhackable on our side but the team managed to deny it to the reds also. Manus peaks, 4 - 5 minutes into the game and C is still yellow 0.o. Anyway I knew I wasn't going to kill these fools alone, but I swapped to AV anyway and suppressed them for half the game. When 3-1, dealt over 50k damage, was the reason we were able to capture that point, was sitting like 12th on the leader board. It was boring as **** , but needed to be done. What would be a fair way to compensate me for that that would not be exploitable? If there is an argument to be made about infantry doing there job if they are causing tanks to disengage, then we should be compensated for it, because there are times when it is the strategically correct thing to do. Thoughts there? Another thing you didn't touch on was price. I think tanks were too expensive before, but now they are ridiculously Cheap. So cheap that it really isn't worth going after. The thing I think tankers forget is that I didn't start the game in an AV fit, by going after them I am no longer supporting my team, hacking points, or shooting reds which is what I WANT to be doing. I would never consider driving all the way to a supply depot to change out fits for a single proto merc on the field. Knowing that I am removing upwards of 500k average ISK was worth it. Thanks for going through and replying :) also 2 hardeners on shields with the skills done on cooldown reduction and increased duration gives a 10 second window of attack time, some shield tankers run 3 hardeners just to show how terribad they are. I think a way to do it would be to have warpoints for damage, 25 for say every 1000, a bit more? I usually throw ideas out there and hope someone else could come up with numbers, those AVers that do suppress should be rewarded for the effort. Pricing, it's around 500k for me to run my fit, which I feel is a little cheap, perhaps upping the Hull price on vehicles would be a good course of action, I mean look at the Sica/Soma's, they're at 59,565 and come with weapons, so it's peanuts to keep chucking them at things. same with Gunnlogi/Madrugars, they're 97,500, I was always fine with the standards costing around 200k. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3309	Posted - 2013.12.13 02:13:00 - [5] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: message from Godin: That's for shields. Can't believe I'm saying this, but nerf shield hardeners. Erm, Complex with no skills CD: 50s - AD: 36 Complex with 25% reduction CD: 37.5 - AD: 45 King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3313	Posted - 2013.12.13 02:46:00 - [6] - Quote gbghg wrote: this is the kind of discussion i'm talking about. civil, full of interesting ideas, and useful. anyway i find myself liking pretty much all of your suggestions jason, except for the hardener one, i dislike arbitrary fitting restrictions, gives us less room to play around with (not like that's much right now with like 6-7 module types top). besides i don't really see the benefit to running more than 1 hardener on a fit, given stacking penalties and the way resists work i just don't think they're worth more than 1 slot. anyway getting a tad off topic there. personally i'm finding the LP store to be a great way to save isk, by switching over to State XT-1's i've reduced my python fit's cost from 503K to 416K, i'm eager to see what other areas i can save isk in. Thing is, it's not about running them at the same time, but when you can run them constantly without becoming vunerable, with two hardeners I'm pretty much unstoppable, with three you just have the extra one just in case, I mean I was running two with my rail (cos rail fights and rails being ridiculous) and activate them at the same time, there's a massive difference, before I'd be two shotted from a proto, now its taken 6 shots to lose my shields. by then I'm back in cover and regening. It's just rather silly. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3313	Posted - 2013.12.13 03:43:00 - [7] - Quote LuckyLuke Wargan wrote: I like how this post is suposed to be unbias yet only tankers are posting... As a swarmer range has been nerf to a pulp, tankers are moving too fast for us to get a lock on, damage is too low as well, as it takes me 4 proto shot to down a militia tank, we are talking proto vs militia here, it prove that when proto tanks come out, swarm will be totally inefective. My 2 cents, I know my comment will be drowned by the masses of "unbias" tankers populating these forums. Son did you even read the post? Or did you just jump straight in guns blazing to cry? King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3313	Posted - 2013.12.13 03:45:00 - [8] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: Cosgar wrote: I think the tank speed is an indication that we'll be getting webs in 1.8. Even if we do, tank speed still seems a little to fast. shrugs I say that because am running away a lot. its a very obvious typo actually. the militia fuel injector gives 100% speed boost. The proto version gives 30% so i am betting it should only be 10%. Mate, seriously, you need to read. A lot of you need to learn to read things. I'm not talking about a bugged militia injector, WHICH is now fixed at 30% by the way. So stop. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3318	Posted - 2013.12.13 04:38:00 - [9] - Quote Bump.. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3323	Posted - 2013.12.13 06:14:00 - [10] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: I am a part time AV and you can keep the crazy speed of the HAV and all the modules the way they are as long as you provide a web version of every explosive grenade and mine. We need at least a light and heavy web grenade and at least two types of mines. I would suggest that one mine be wide area that deploys instantly like a NH and a smaller version that deploys like the RE. These four things would fix any speed problems we have and create more diversity in the game. Some of the best things ever conceived was by accident and this bug could be one of them. I vote don't change anything and just add some counters to the screw up. The forums haven't been this positive in a while and I don't see why it's a bad thing or needs changing. Standard Web Same range and stats as a standard flux but creates a 5m bubble with a 10% drop in speed for 7s where ever it lands. Sleek Web Same range and stats as a sleek but creates a 3m bubble with a 10% drop in speed for 5s where ever it lands. Packed Web Same range and stats as a packed but creates a 7m bubble with a 10% drop in speed for 7s where ever it lands. Drop Web Works like a nanohive but has a 5 second deploy time and a 12m bubble dropping speed by 25%, the web would only last for one minute 30 seconds. Remote Web Works like a RE with the bubble being activated whenever the merc wants. The bubble would not have a deploy timer. The 10m bubble would have a speed drop of 25% and only last for 25s. Works on friend or foe and skills would change stats like deploy time, speed drop, lifespan and bubble area. Of course my numbers are me just me throwing things out so feel free to change what is needed. I don't think it is time to nerf anything, I think it is time to drop more skills and modules along with more suits and weapons. Lets use this opportunity to gain something. I think the web "grenades" should hit them rather than having a bubble, or have a bubble but forget the sleek and packed, keep it simple, Speed should also be massively reduced, I mean, by like 50-75% if we're keeping the current speed as you have suggested. R.Es should be the strongest, again slowing them down massively, and should also add a proxy version that isn't as strong. Makes for good traps :) King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul

Jason Pearson 3323	Posted - 2013.12.13 06:38:00 - [11] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Makes for good traps and adds another role that a scout can outperform other suits. Scouts are fast tackle and I wouldn't be opposed to having a tool that drains speed or something similar. A squad of scouts could hold and destroy a vehicle with teamwork. Two tackle scouts and four PC scouts would be hard on a vehicle. I am afraid that anything more than 20-25% speed reduction would be too much if multiple webs were used. It has to be fair to everyone and kept fun. We need fun and content, badly. Oh right, for multiple hits, I was looking at it as more of a one thing at a time kind of deal, didn't matter if 3 hit, the 1st would negate the rest. Reason being is I can see it now, everyone with web grenades just lobbing them and freezing anything that comes past lol. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3330	Posted - 2013.12.13 09:43:00 - [12] - Quote wripple wrote: Quote: We had damage-based WP many moons ago but they were removed because of WP farming. Now, however, we have a global limiter that prevents mass-WP farming so it's definitely something I'd like to add back. If it's not possible to hot-fix in I'll poke the guys about getting in for 1.8. I think it's fair enough that you get rewarded for chasing off vehicles if not being able to outright destroy them. That said, we hot-fixed the militia fuel injector last night. And right now we're testing increased recharge times on fuel injectors and slightly reduced speed on HAVs. May I make a suggestion? -Greatly reduce the damage and RoF for all turrets by 25% and have the operation bonus increase it by 5% per level -Reduce the speed and torque for all HAVs by 50% and make HAV operation give 10% back per level. As it currently stands anyone can pick up a militia stock fit HAV and completely dominate even seasoned vets. This suggestion would grant only those who spend the SP full power of the HAV. Tanks will still have the damage and speed they do now, you just have to get level 5 in order to use it. Reduce Damage and RoF for all tanks so we can't kill eachother? Nice one -¼_-¼ No, am all for a reduction, not outright 50%, gotta decrease it slowly see what the best fit is, but don't give it back through skills If you're being dominated by new players as a "seasoned vet", you're definitely not a seasoned vet, when vets are breezing through new tankers, usually 2 v 1 in the newbs favour King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3331	Posted - 2013.12.13 10:45:00 - [13] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: CCP Remnant wrote: wripple wrote: Quote: We had damage-based WP many moons ago but they were removed because of WP farming. Now, however, we have a global limiter that prevents mass-WP farming so it's definitely something I'd like to add back. If it's not possible to hot-fix in I'll poke the guys about getting in for 1.8. I think it's fair enough that you get rewarded for chasing off vehicles if not being able to outright destroy them. That said, we hot-fixed the militia fuel injector last night. And right now we're testing increased recharge times on fuel injectors and slightly reduced speed on HAVs. May I make a suggestion? -Greatly reduce the damage and RoF for all turrets by 25% and have the operation bonus increase it by 5% per level -Reduce the speed and torque for all HAVs by 50% and make HAV operation give 10% back per level. As it currently stands anyone can pick up a militia stock fit HAV and completely dominate even seasoned vets. This suggestion would grant only those who spend the SP full power of the HAV. Tanks will still have the damage and speed they do now, you just have to get level 5 in order to use it. Problem with that is that if you start new players out with the worst handling and worst performing tank possible, they'd hardly be incentivized to skill into it, and even if they were it wouldn't be terribly fun until they did, don't you think? In a racing game, don't you ussually start out with a crappy car, with crappy handling, acceleration, top speed and braking ? In a racing game you get put against the same level of competition as you, In New Eden, we don't have that comfort. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3337	Posted - 2013.12.13 15:24:00 - [14] - Quote Atom Heart Mother wrote: My opinion, CCP you should rebuff AV as it was b4 1.7 patch, I think the game should get balanced this way. -¼_-¼ Make your own opinion thread. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3340	Posted - 2013.12.13 19:00:00 - [15] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Skihids wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: With the current levels of tank speed i do expect webifiers to be put in next to counter act it Also 1 hardener for each tank? lolno because without hardeners the tank is squishy as it is, thats the whole point of active hardeners but they come with a big consequence of PG/CPU Oh wow aswesome, then we would need 1 guy to web it and 3 guys to shoot it to counter 1 guy in a tank that costs roughly as much as my proto-suit..... Teamworks hurts You want to solo with an AR? How about we put restrictions on suits too so you can only have 1 dmg mod 1 rep 1 plate etc We have restrictions. Infantry doesn't get to be invulnerable. That's a pretty big drawback compared to vehicles. Neither do we without active hardeners Infantry don't get to become invulnerable for 30 seconds out in the open, we do. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3348	Posted - 2013.12.14 11:22:00 - [16] - Quote Void Moose wrote: i think that new players should have to work towards having a tank skill right now the game is beyond unbalanced to the point of losing players. however if its unavoidable that this low level bad ass tank behavior is by design and not by error can you then limit the number of tanks that can be deployed by a team to a max of two tanks and two dropships at the same time because a team of 16 versus 5 indestructible tanks is beyond broken. it has quite literally ruined my experience of the game. What about your thoughts on the OP? That was the topic of this thread for discussion, numerous viable ways of balancing without doing something crazy like reducing tank numbers (because you'll always have some guy call in a militia tank and do nothing useful) despite the fact one tank can kill 5 easily. They're not indestructible, they're harder to kill for a period of time which is great, but the cooldowns mean you can decimate a tank with two forge shots, two AV grenades took off a massive amount of HP when my shield hardeners go down, it hurts. The problem with the entire thing, I feel I offered several viable solutions to it. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire Laugh at the idiots crying about four BPOs being removed erryday, lul
Jason Pearson 3394	Posted - 2013.12.15 03:33:00 - [17] - Quote Keeping this bumped because of all the crying. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire. Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
Jason Pearson 3447	Posted - 2013.12.15 23:33:00 - [18] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Keeping this bumped because of all the crying. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire. Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
Jason Pearson 3452	Posted - 2013.12.16 00:35:00 - [19] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: I hear alot of crying about tanks. Boo hoo. I personally feel they pushed the AV Nerf a tad to far. Having said that its always been a blast poppin tanks. Now more than ever. I get to take my guys out and teach them how to wreck stuff. I'm pullin some of our best guys off the frontline to crush tanks. I've had to resort to using rooftops lately, 3MLT tanks can do a number on a guy.it doesn't feel cheap to be up there anymore. It feels like hunting sharks......with a bazooka. tanking is a hell of alot of fun right now too. you can tell a good pilot from a bad one, bad ones explode more often. People keep saying it's less skill when driving a tank, this update completely separates the good from the bad, and the great from the good it's wonderful. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire. Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
Jason Pearson 3916	Posted - 2014.01.16 00:37:00 - [20] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: People keep saying it's less skill when driving a tank, this update completely separates the good from the bad, and the great from the good it's wonderful. Oh please. It takes almost no skill to sit back with a triple damage modded rail tank. Especially if you run a hardener and a plate and recall after taking a hit or burning through your modules. Oh, sorry, I meant people who aren't fucktards and don't run broken fits like triple hardener/damage mods :) King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire \\ Bad Mathematician You're a total git, Jason. - Kingbabar