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True Adamance
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
4448
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Posted - 2013.11.30 12:11:00 -
[31] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:No I don't agree
If the only way to take down a tank is with another tank
1) If you are only tanker in match god mode 4 u 2) If other team also has tanks, whoever has better tanks wins 3) Infantry only become good for capping points
4) entire rock paper scissors gameplay ruined 5) Infantry interaction with tanks devolves into hiding
6) World of tanks ensues
Tanks should be a force multiplier 1) 1 tank should not be more effective against infantry on its own, than 1 infantry player 2) 1 tank alone should not be the equivalent worth of more than 1 infantry player
3) Vehicle infantry co-operation should be the main point of a vehicle 4) a tanks role, is not to slaughter everyone and let the infantry clean up the mess 5) a tank guarantees nothing and will only improve chances of success when utilised with a supporting squad
Yeah! Let's not have something that is more effective at killing infantry than infantry because I don't feel like it! Even though there are dozens of countermeasures to the role! Maybe if you stop painting infantry with one colour you might understand what I mean. Your tank is nothing more than a weapon, it will be good at some roles but not others, but at no point should excel more than its counterparts outside of its niche.
Meh I've been on both sides 20mill combined SP in infantry across most characters I have made, rolled with every corp imaginable from OH, to Teamplayers, to Dead Six, and more.
Infantry is infantry we're all the same. KILL MAIM BURN! That's basically our motto. If we have to take time out from that its to fun, it needs to be nerfed is the general consensus I have most often heard.
And I have heard every argument from Tanks are OP cause we cant blow them up with normal grenades, I have to spec into a new class of weapons to do what to a dropship?, and an oldie but a goodie, if my weapon even slightly takes a nerf then it'll be TANK 514 not AR514....
All are pretty laughable reasons and for that is why I don't take Infantry seriously when we try to talk balance....
Consequently I don't really take Tankers seriously either....
But my main point is....infantry only comes in one colour, a KILL MAIM BURN BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD red. Doesn't matter how you try to tell me what shade you are tactical, thoughtful, team oriented. Red is still red.
"All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
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CharCharOdell
1703
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Posted - 2013.11.30 12:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
Swarms and yolonades should be a hard counter to LAVs but a soft counter to HAVs and drop ships. Forges should be a hard counter to dropships HAVs should win vs all except an assault dropship
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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KalOfTheRathi
Nec Tributis
913
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Posted - 2013.11.30 13:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
No. I do not agree. It is not true on a real battlefield and there is little indication that it will be true in the future.
If installations weren't equipped with junk weapons they should be able to pop you with one round like a 155mm HE can do today.
If you only want to run tank versus tank. Then you need to find a different game. |
Alpha 443-6732
232
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Posted - 2013.11.30 19:45:00 -
[34] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:No I don't agree
If the only way to take down a tank is with another tank
1) If you are only tanker in match god mode 4 u 2) If other team also has tanks, whoever has better tanks wins 3) Infantry only become good for capping points
4) entire rock paper scissors gameplay ruined 5) Infantry interaction with tanks devolves into hiding
6) World of tanks ensues
Tanks should be a force multiplier 1) 1 tank should not be more effective against infantry on its own, than 1 infantry player 2) 1 tank alone should not be the equivalent worth of more than 1 infantry player
3) Vehicle infantry co-operation should be the main point of a vehicle 4) a tanks role, is not to slaughter everyone and let the infantry clean up the mess 5) a tank guarantees nothing and will only improve chances of success when utilised with a supporting squad
Yeah! Let's not have something that is more effective at killing infantry than infantry because I don't feel like it! Even though there are dozens of countermeasures to the role! Maybe if you stop painting infantry with one colour you might understand what I mean. Your tank is nothing more than a weapon, it will be good at some roles but not others, but at no point should excel more than its counterparts outside of its niche.
Part of its niche is having significantly more offense AND defense than infantry, so I don't understand what you're saying. One man operating a tank can't be better than one infantry operating a tank? HAH!
Why should we pay 1.2 mil isk to do a job infantry can do much better (at this point)?
Why do you think a tank is only a weapon? A forge and duvolle can perform just as well, with (at the least) 10x less cost per suit.
AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
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Demetrius Grenaline
Imperfect Bastards
0
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Posted - 2013.11.30 20:06:00 -
[35] - Quote
SILVERBACK 02 wrote:The dark cloud wrote:yeah right thats why landmines, RPG's and IED's can destroy or badly damage any kind of vehicle. You just wait till i dig a hole and put 60 remote explosives inside of it. Then i wait for you to drive over it and boom a big ass explosion. not tanks.. that have class 5 choban armour mesh... something the americans have been trying to get there hands on for years now but the british military will never release such documents
America has had access to Chobhan* Armour for years, and it's currently fitted on the M1 Abrams MBT. |
Hecarim Van Hohen
Knights of Eternal Darkness
307
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Posted - 2013.11.30 20:12:00 -
[36] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:No. I do not agree. It is not true on a real battlefield and there is little indication that it will be true in the future. If installations weren't equipped with junk weapons they should be able to pop you with one round like a 155mm HE can do today. If you only want to run tank versus tank. Then you need to find a different game.
World of Tanks
Cheer up a bit will you
(n+ëGùòpâ«Gùò)n+ë:n+Ñn+ƒG£º:n+Ñn+ƒG£º
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Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
3896
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Posted - 2013.11.30 20:14:00 -
[37] - Quote
SILVERBACK 02 wrote:The dark cloud wrote:yeah right thats why landmines, RPG's and IED's can destroy or badly damage any kind of vehicle. You just wait till i dig a hole and put 60 remote explosives inside of it. Then i wait for you to drive over it and boom a big ass explosion. not tanks.. that have class 5 choban armour mesh... something the americans have been trying to get there hands on for years now but the british military will never release such documents Special mesh or not, during the armored push into Baghdad in 2003, the American tanks took hundreds of RPG hits, and the only tank to be disabled was one that was hit in the exhaust grille by a recoiless-rifle. The RPGs only set the bags on their carriage racks on fire.
That said, making infantry useless against vehicles is bad for gameplay, and gameplay>reality.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star. EoN.
1386
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Posted - 2013.11.30 22:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:SILVERBACK 02 wrote:the only thing that should be able to take out a tank is... ANOTHER TANK
do you agree?
personally i agree.. i think tanks should be a dominating presence on the battlefield as is such the case in real life.
air strikes from fast air seem to be the only counter.. iv seen CHALLENGER 2 battle tanks shrug off rpg-7s and anti tank mines. My double complex damage modded Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun disagrees... violently =.= If something can take down a Bolas in 2 shots, it's overpowered. This coming from someone with proficiency 3 in forge guns.
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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SILVERBACK 02
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
409
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Posted - 2013.11.30 22:47:00 -
[39] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:No I don't agree
If the only way to take down a tank is with another tank
1) If you are only tanker in match god mode 4 u 2) If other team also has tanks, whoever has better tanks wins 3) Infantry only become good for capping points
4) entire rock paper scissors gameplay ruined 5) Infantry interaction with tanks devolves into hiding
6) World of tanks ensues
Tanks should be a force multiplier 1) 1 tank should not be more effective against infantry on its own, than 1 infantry player 2) 1 tank alone should not be the equivalent worth of more than 1 infantry player
3) Vehicle infantry co-operation should be the main point of a vehicle 4) a tanks role, is not to slaughter everyone and let the infantry clean up the mess 5) a tank guarantees nothing and will only improve chances of success when utilised with a supporting squad
are you an idiot!!???
so you want one 100k proto suit to be the same worth as a 2.3 mil isk tank?>>? you nooob go home
level 0 forum warrior
self-proclaimed slayer
weapon of choice:
GEK-38 gallante assault rifle
-STB infantry
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Xender17
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
940
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Posted - 2013.11.30 22:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
Darken-Sol wrote:What would anti vehicle weapons do? Minus the SL probably what they seem to do more of. Kill infantry.
What the fox say?
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Monkey MAC
killer taxi company
1091
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Posted - 2013.12.01 00:23:00 -
[41] - Quote
SILVERBACK 02 wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:No I don't agree
If the only way to take down a tank is with another tank
1) If you are only tanker in match god mode 4 u 2) If other team also has tanks, whoever has better tanks wins 3) Infantry only become good for capping points
4) entire rock paper scissors gameplay ruined 5) Infantry interaction with tanks devolves into hiding
6) World of tanks ensues
Tanks should be a force multiplier 1) 1 tank should not be more effective against infantry on its own, than 1 infantry player 2) 1 tank alone should not be the equivalent worth of more than 1 infantry player
3) Vehicle infantry co-operation should be the main point of a vehicle 4) a tanks role, is not to slaughter everyone and let the infantry clean up the mess 5) a tank guarantees nothing and will only improve chances of success when utilised with a supporting squad
are you an idiot!!??? so you want one 100k proto suit to be the same worth as a 2.3 mil isk tank?>>? you nooob go home Yes please continue to only gleen half of my point. Make assumptions based on your closed perspective. Tell me im a noob based on views you accuse me of having.
However to answer your question directly. No im not an idiot, you obviously have trouble following my argument.
Yes, a tank with out support should not be worth more than a medium suit on the battlefield. Without support he should have the equivalent strength of 1 infantry player.
No alpha, that does not mean a tanker should not be any better at driving a tank, I mean a tank without support should be of no more use than a soilder with an assault rifle.
HOWEVER a tank with good and relevant support SHOULD have the more than equivalent strength of 1 infantry player, so to should the infantry. To put it mathmatically
1 AR == 1 AR 1 TANK == 1 AR 1 TANK + 1 AR > 2 AR
Alpha, yes I do believe a tank is a weapon, it is bought, wielded and operated by a single person. If you want get real technical its actually a drop suit with a weapon nothing more. NO that does not mean I think tanks should require multiple people to run, thats unfair. But tanks are no different to any other suit/weapon combo.
They should excel in their niche and have a prelevant weakness that is not the same combo. A tanks niche is effectively to be close infantry ground support.
That means drawing enemy fire, ultimately their attention as well. Suppressing enemy combatants. And providing both fire support and breaching protection against entrenched locations.
That DOES NOT mean kill every mother-****** you see.
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
1475
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Posted - 2013.12.01 00:28:00 -
[42] - Quote
I gotta favorite this.
And people said I was exaggerating when I said pilots want to be the only counter to themselves.
Thanks bro, here's 1 ISK. Don't spend it all in one place
(Also, your a terrible troll)
Check out my corp's new website here :D
-HAND
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
1477
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Posted - 2013.12.01 00:41:00 -
[43] - Quote
SILVERBACK 02 wrote: BOOOM! there you go i was waiting for someone to say this^^
so what do you think infantry players do?? the best fit logi slayer seems to have the best kdr at the end of the match no matter how many miltia suit blueberrys are thrown at it...
BALANCE IS THERE.
You have no idea how infantry mechanics work do you?
A PRO suit, no matter what class or tier is capable of being destroyed by another suit regardless of class or tier.
What you are suggesting is not balanced, as it forces people to skill into vehicles to destroy vehicles, which would remove the Anti-Vehicle class completly, not that vehicle pilots and the LOLTank Brigade wouldn't like this.
That is the exact definition of Tank 514.
Check out my corp's new website here :D
-HAND
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KING CHECKMATE
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
2587
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Posted - 2013.12.01 00:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
SILVERBACK 02 wrote:the only thing that should be able to take out a tank is... ANOTHER TANK
do you agree?
Thats stupid
The game is supossd to be Rock/paper/scissors.
Something beings its OWN counter is ONLY fine,if it cannot harm anything else. In the Case that Tanks are so powerful they can only destroy each other then they should not be able to kill infantry.
Its called balance.
The Best Damage Mod, its a Headshot....
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KING CHECKMATE
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
2588
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Posted - 2013.12.01 00:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
Let me elaborate:
Av takes out Vehicles Vehicles Take down Infantry Infantry takes down AV
See ? Rock/Paper/scissors
But you want to be Rock with no paper. You want: GÖªTank kills AV GÖªTank kills Infantry GÖªTanks Kill Tanks
I mean, SERIOUSLY, tankers are demented... I see how you guys can like this idea, but CCP SHOULD NOT LISTEN to any of you. LOL
MAdmen....
The Best Damage Mod, its a Headshot....
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CharCharOdell
1706
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Posted - 2013.12.01 02:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:No I don't agree
If the only way to take down a tank is with another tank
1) If you are only tanker in match god mode 4 u 2) If other team also has tanks, whoever has better tanks wins 3) Infantry only become good for capping points
4) entire rock paper scissors gameplay ruined 5) Infantry interaction with tanks devolves into hiding
6) World of tanks ensues
Tanks should be a force multiplier 1) 1 tank should not be more effective against infantry on its own, than 1 infantry player 2) 1 tank alone should not be the equivalent worth of more than 1 infantry player
3) Vehicle infantry co-operation should be the main point of a vehicle 4) a tanks role, is not to slaughter everyone and let the infantry clean up the mess 5) a tank guarantees nothing and will only improve chances of success when utilised with a supporting squad
so you want tanks to have 1000 HP and 800 DPS? That's your average AR fit on a gallogi.
Exactly how would this work?
You have no idea and nobody else does.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Alpha 443-6732
232
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Posted - 2013.12.01 03:16:00 -
[47] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Let me elaborate:
Av takes out Vehicles Vehicles Take down Infantry Infantry takes down AV
See ? Rock/Paper/scissors
But you want to be Rock with no paper. You want: GÖªTank kills AV GÖªTank kills Infantry GÖªTanks Kill Tanks
I mean, SERIOUSLY, tankers are demented... I see how you guys can like this idea, but CCP SHOULD NOT LISTEN to any of you. LOL
MAdmen....
So you actually want this game to be as simple as a game of rock paper scissors? You're deluded.
AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
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Alpha 443-6732
232
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Posted - 2013.12.01 03:19:00 -
[48] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:SILVERBACK 02 wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:No I don't agree
If the only way to take down a tank is with another tank
1) If you are only tanker in match god mode 4 u 2) If other team also has tanks, whoever has better tanks wins 3) Infantry only become good for capping points
4) entire rock paper scissors gameplay ruined 5) Infantry interaction with tanks devolves into hiding
6) World of tanks ensues
Tanks should be a force multiplier 1) 1 tank should not be more effective against infantry on its own, than 1 infantry player 2) 1 tank alone should not be the equivalent worth of more than 1 infantry player
3) Vehicle infantry co-operation should be the main point of a vehicle 4) a tanks role, is not to slaughter everyone and let the infantry clean up the mess 5) a tank guarantees nothing and will only improve chances of success when utilised with a supporting squad
are you an idiot!!??? so you want one 100k proto suit to be the same worth as a 2.3 mil isk tank?>>? you nooob go home Yes please continue to only gleen half of my point. Make assumptions based on your closed perspective. Tell me im a noob based on views you accuse me of having. However to answer your question directly. No im not an idiot, you obviously have trouble following my argument. Yes, a tank with out support should not be worth more than a medium suit on the battlefield. Without support he should have the equivalent strength of 1 infantry player. No alpha, that does not mean a tanker should not be any better at driving a tank, I mean a tank without support should be of no more use than a soilder with an assault rifle. HOWEVER a tank with good and relevant support SHOULD have the more than equivalent strength of 1 infantry player, so to should the infantry. To put it mathmatically 1 AR == 1 AR 1 TANK == 1 AR 1 TANK + 1 AR > 2 AR Alpha, yes I do believe a tank is a weapon, it is bought, wielded and operated by a single person. If you want get real technical its actually a drop suit with a weapon nothing more. NO that does not mean I think tanks should require multiple people to run, thats unfair. But tanks are no different to any other suit/weapon combo. They should excel in their niche and have a prelevant weakness that is not the same combo. A tanks niche is effectively to be close infantry ground support. That means drawing enemy fire, ultimately their attention as well. Suppressing enemy combatants. And providing both fire support and breaching protection against entrenched locations. That DOES NOT mean kill every mother-****** you see.
And why do you believe this?
AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
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Alpha 443-6732
232
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Posted - 2013.12.01 03:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
Hecarim Van Hohen wrote:
Penetration (total annihilation) kills are not the only way to take out a tank.
A mobility kill: (or M-kill) in armoured warfare is a weapon or vehicle that is immobilized
A firepower kill: damage inflicted by a weapon on a vehicle that destroys its weapon systems, or substantially reduces its ability to deliver weapons accurately
A catastrophic kill, K-Kill or complete kill refers to damage inflicted on an armored vehicle that amounts to complete destruction of the vehicle, rendering it both permanently non-functional and unrepirable (only option for AV atm besides harassing it)
So before infantry AV can harm tanks by disabling it's movement and/or hinder it's damage output this is kinda out of the question but, as always, I might be wrong here.
Here's an idea, how about infantry have weapons that are better at disabling tanks in weak points than doing just straight armor/shield damage to them? It would even give them a niche, mines would be more useful and dumb tankers will get abused easily (even when they use the best of tanks) by smart AVers. The tracks, main gun, fuel tank/reactor would all have flat health values that could not be modified, so accurate fire from infantry could easily disable a tank without actually blowing it up and costing the tanker ISK (though they easily could, now that the tanker is immobilized and can't escape).
Maybe, what we need here is simply more mechanics instead of a competition on just who can do more damage to vehicles? Even webifiers would add a large balancing factor to infantry vs. tank combat (who cares if your swarm only does 1200 or so dmg, if the vehicle is immobilized, he's condemned!). Also, AVers would need WP for dealing critical hits to tanks, IN ADDITION to WP for doing straight up damage and destroying tanks.
So basically, the vehicle hitboxes are archaic, revamp them and add more mechanics to vehicle vs. vehicle/infantry combat.
Any other suggestions?
AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
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Benjamin Ciscko
The Generals General Tso's Alliance
255
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Posted - 2013.12.01 03:51:00 -
[50] - Quote
AV should be used to take out retreating tanks (basically a tank with It's mods off) Coordinated AV 4 guys or more millions into AV hitting the tank simultaneously AV should give your teams tank the edge it needs to win a tank battle DS should be able to take out tanks or at least cause a retreat Tanks should be the primary solution to take out other Tanks
Vehicle rework scheduled for 1.5.... 1.6.... 1.7........
Tanker/Logi
Wait until AV feels the pain vehicle users have
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Alpha 443-6732
232
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Posted - 2013.12.01 03:54:00 -
[51] - Quote
Benjamin Ciscko wrote:AV should be used to take out retreating tanks (basically a tank with It's mods off) Coordinated AV 4 guys or more millions into AV hitting the tank simultaneously AV should give your teams tank the edge it needs to win a tank battle DS should be able to take out tanks or at least cause a retreat Tanks should be the primary solution to take out other Tanks
Not current dropships, right? Assault dropships aren't necessarily designed with anti-vehicle usage in mind. Jets with air to ground missiles would fair much better in that role IMO.
AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
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KING CHECKMATE
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
2600
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Posted - 2013.12.01 04:02:00 -
[52] - Quote
Alpha 443-6732 wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:Let me elaborate:
Av takes out Vehicles Vehicles Take down Infantry Infantry takes down AV
See ? Rock/Paper/scissors
But you want to be Rock with no paper. You want: GÖªTank kills AV GÖªTank kills Infantry GÖªTanks Kill Tanks
I mean, SERIOUSLY, tankers are demented... I see how you guys can like this idea, but CCP SHOULD NOT LISTEN to any of you. LOL
MAdmen.... So you actually want this game to be as simple as a game of rock paper scissors? You're deluded.
Still better than tanks being their only true counter.
The Best Damage Mod, its a Headshot....
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Alpha 443-6732
232
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Posted - 2013.12.01 04:16:00 -
[53] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Alpha 443-6732 wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:Let me elaborate:
Av takes out Vehicles Vehicles Take down Infantry Infantry takes down AV
See ? Rock/Paper/scissors
But you want to be Rock with no paper. You want: GÖªTank kills AV GÖªTank kills Infantry GÖªTanks Kill Tanks
I mean, SERIOUSLY, tankers are demented... I see how you guys can like this idea, but CCP SHOULD NOT LISTEN to any of you. LOL
MAdmen.... So you actually want this game to be as simple as a game of rock paper scissors? You're deluded. Still better than tanks being their only true counter.
Of course it would be. Only the dumb tankers say that.
AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
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Monkey MAC
killer taxi company
1092
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Posted - 2013.12.01 12:00:00 -
[54] - Quote
Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:SILVERBACK 02 wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:No I don't agree
If the only way to take down a tank is with another tank
1) If you are only tanker in match god mode 4 u 2) If other team also has tanks, whoever has better tanks wins 3) Infantry only become good for capping points
4) entire rock paper scissors gameplay ruined 5) Infantry interaction with tanks devolves into hiding
6) World of tanks ensues
Tanks should be a force multiplier 1) 1 tank should not be more effective against infantry on its own, than 1 infantry player 2) 1 tank alone should not be the equivalent worth of more than 1 infantry player
3) Vehicle infantry co-operation should be the main point of a vehicle 4) a tanks role, is not to slaughter everyone and let the infantry clean up the mess 5) a tank guarantees nothing and will only improve chances of success when utilised with a supporting squad
are you an idiot!!??? so you want one 100k proto suit to be the same worth as a 2.3 mil isk tank?>>? you nooob go home Yes please continue to only gleen half of my point. Make assumptions based on your closed perspective. Tell me im a noob based on views you accuse me of having. However to answer your question directly. No im not an idiot, you obviously have trouble following my argument. Yes, a tank with out support should not be worth more than a medium suit on the battlefield. Without support he should have the equivalent strength of 1 infantry player. No alpha, that does not mean a tanker should not be any better at driving a tank, I mean a tank without support should be of no more use than a soilder with an assault rifle. HOWEVER a tank with good and relevant support SHOULD have the more than equivalent strength of 1 infantry player, so to should the infantry. To put it mathmatically 1 AR == 1 AR 1 TANK == 1 AR 1 TANK + 1 AR > 2 AR Alpha, yes I do believe a tank is a weapon, it is bought, wielded and operated by a single person. If you want get real technical its actually a drop suit with a weapon nothing more. NO that does not mean I think tanks should require multiple people to run, thats unfair. But tanks are no different to any other suit/weapon combo. They should excel in their niche and have a prelevant weakness that is not the same combo. A tanks niche is effectively to be close infantry ground support. That means drawing enemy fire, ultimately their attention as well. Suppressing enemy combatants. And providing both fire support and breaching protection against entrenched locations. That DOES NOT mean kill every mother-****** you see. And why do you believe this?
Believe what? Why a tank works like a weapon is already there.
If you mean how a tank should be used, this based off modern military tanks. Even if a modern tank were fully automated it still needs support in urban combat areas, in open ground tanks will rule.
CharChar I did not say nerf them to dropsuit health and damage levels. But a tank is a dropsuit it is not a special case that should be defeated only by itself.
If you ask why believe that, its called escalation gameplay, which in game like this, is bad. Escalation gameplay requires many more levels than would make sense in this game.
Examples of escalation gameplay: XCOM Civilisation V Risk
What we want is circular gameplay, what this means is there is no top of the food chain. So tanks will be weak to something other than tanks. It doesn't have to be AV but somewhere pure INFANTRY have to be able to beat something.
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
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KalOfTheRathi
Nec Tributis
917
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Posted - 2013.12.01 13:07:00 -
[55] - Quote
The most consistent QQ Kitten burst of pure emotion from tankers is ISK. As in a 1.4M ISK tank should not be taken out by a 147K ISK something that is not a tank.
Which is utter bullshit.
I have trouble with kids of a certain age, teen to early adult in many cases. The word 'entitled' comes up repeatedly. They believe because they were born without enough cash in their butt to live comfortably for the rest of their lives without doing anything at all then life sucks and is unfair. Hugely unfair.
Somehow these ISK tankers seem to ring like the same set of whine chimes. Rap them once and its is all about ISK, my ISK, my ISK reverberating in the distance.
So why is that different from the QQ Tankers? It ain't little tanker babes. You spent a chunk of change. You got popped. HTFU. Remember that? Well you better. Because it is the motto of CCP/Mothership and it ain't changing.
If you cannot afford to lose it, don't bring it out.
But, we will enjoy your QQ our little Tanker Kittens. Once 1.7 hammers the truth of fragile tanks down your throats and the very limited modules will mean you spend all your time behind the red line, just remember. Please come to the forums so we can read your QQ. The rest of us need a laugh. Don't forget to post how much the tank you lost cost in ISK or AUR.
Expensive QQ are the bestest.
Welcome to DUST
* Although the Toxins have never done any latent damage like documented. Which is fine, none of the documentation was ever right and CCP/Shanghai has never cared. Nor will they, I expect. Truth and honorable actions, not being a New Eden sort of thing. |
Lorhak Gannarsein
639
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Posted - 2013.12.01 14:23:00 -
[56] - Quote
For sure the best counter for a tank should be a tank.
But the only counter?
I want what you're smoking! |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company
1094
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Posted - 2013.12.01 17:30:00 -
[57] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:For sure the best counter for a tank should be a tank. But the only counter? I want what you're smoking! Monkey MAC wrote:3) Infantry only become good for capping points Only saw your conversation after posting, so here's an edit! Basically, I think it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that a tank should be worth no more than an assault dropsuit (if you are in fact, as I presume, referring to its combat abilities) considering your quote. A tank is not like a dropsuit - it's entirely a niche item; it can perform one role, and one role only. In my tank, I can kill (and scatter the enemy, more importantly) more effectively than any protosuit (and if my blaster had decent hit detection.... but that's another matter ). What I can't provide is any kind of versatility. In an Assault dropsuit, I can slay, cap points and provide limited support. In a Logistics dropsuit, I can slay, cap points and provide ample support. In a Scout dropsuit... but you get the idea. A tank should be equivalent to somewhat more than a heavy suit, considering that the heavy suit is primarily a slayer suit (however poorly it performs that role) considering its lack of any support ability (I am referring, of course, to the absence of an equipment slot). In its niche, a tank should be unmatched. Unlike any other dropsuit, or even vehicle, an HAV is capable of performing only one role to any acceptable standard (in other words, it's not even capable of acting as a mobile spawnpoint, like a DS, or even an effective transport, like a LAV). There is no legitimate reason why any infantry suit should be able to match the HAV in its niche. Now, having made that point, I'm going to move on to OP's point. Even if the infantry has sacrificed its primary weapons slot for an AV-type weapon (or is one of those assholes who primaries grenades as AV) it still has far greater versatility than a tank; in fact, a tank that's fitted for primary AV is generally poor at anti-infantry action, and so has even smaller a niche than under normal circumstances. I think, for that reason, that the primary AV weapon on the field should be a tank, and that infantry AV should be supplemental (significant, but not catastrophic as it currently is). Certainly I don't think that a single AV player should be capable of utterly negating the entire opposing team's effective vehicle usage (assuming the other side is using equivalently tiered gear). And I avoided mentioning ISK for a very good reason (though I'd not say no to a significant price drop even were it accompanied by a nerf or two).
Fair enough, nice to see someone with logical arguements, in truth it would be better comparing to heavy but I merely wanted to get the point across.
However your definition of a tanks niche is my main problem, while I don't disagree with your statement that niche weapon should dominate in its niche.
To label a tanks niche as slaughter, is incredibly narrow minded, you are a vehicke, your niche is providin vehicle support. That in the case of a tank is offensively based, quite correctly. However that does not mean a tank should guarantee taking control of an entrenched position, it doesn't mean the mindless slaughter of hundreds of enemy mercs.
A tank is a tactical tool, often the spearhead of an assault, it breakes the line, fractures it, allowing infantry and other ground units such as mechs lav mav, mtacs etc, to assault the enemy on an advantagous battle ground.
What im saying is a tank, without support should have the tactical worth of a dropsuit. If you are assaulting an entrenched pisition, I would expect a tank to fair no better than an infantry unit.
But unlike infantry, its worth multiples as he gains more support. You might still only use one tank, but the fact you didn't send him in alone means he isn't completly useless. make sense?
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
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Posted - 2013.12.01 19:23:00 -
[58] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:For sure the best counter for a tank should be a tank. But the only counter? I want what you're smoking! Monkey MAC wrote:3) Infantry only become good for capping points Only saw your conversation after posting, so here's an edit! Basically, I think it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that a tank should be worth no more than an assault dropsuit (if you are in fact, as I presume, referring to its combat abilities) considering your quote. A tank is not like a dropsuit - it's entirely a niche item; it can perform one role, and one role only. In my tank, I can kill (and scatter the enemy, more importantly) more effectively than any protosuit (and if my blaster had decent hit detection.... but that's another matter ). What I can't provide is any kind of versatility. In an Assault dropsuit, I can slay, cap points and provide limited support. In a Logistics dropsuit, I can slay, cap points and provide ample support. In a Scout dropsuit... but you get the idea. A tank should be equivalent to somewhat more than a heavy suit, considering that the heavy suit is primarily a slayer suit (however poorly it performs that role) considering its lack of any support ability (I am referring, of course, to the absence of an equipment slot). In its niche, a tank should be unmatched. Unlike any other dropsuit, or even vehicle, an HAV is capable of performing only one role to any acceptable standard (in other words, it's not even capable of acting as a mobile spawnpoint, like a DS, or even an effective transport, like a LAV). There is no legitimate reason why any infantry suit should be able to match the HAV in its niche. Now, having made that point, I'm going to move on to OP's point. Even if the infantry has sacrificed its primary weapons slot for an AV-type weapon (or is one of those assholes who primaries grenades as AV) it still has far greater versatility than a tank; in fact, a tank that's fitted for primary AV is generally poor at anti-infantry action, and so has even smaller a niche than under normal circumstances. I think, for that reason, that the primary AV weapon on the field should be a tank, and that infantry AV should be supplemental (significant, but not catastrophic as it currently is). Certainly I don't think that a single AV player should be capable of utterly negating the entire opposing team's effective vehicle usage (assuming the other side is using equivalently tiered gear). And I avoided mentioning ISK for a very good reason (though I'd not say no to a significant price drop even were it accompanied by a nerf or two).
This is what I've been trying to say the entire time. Thank you.
AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
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Posted - 2013.12.01 20:04:00 -
[59] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:SILVERBACK 02 wrote:The dark cloud wrote:yeah right thats why landmines, RPG's and IED's can destroy or badly damage any kind of vehicle. You just wait till i dig a hole and put 60 remote explosives inside of it. Then i wait for you to drive over it and boom a big ass explosion. not tanks.. that have class 5 choban armour mesh... something the americans have been trying to get there hands on for years now but the british military will never release such documents Special mesh or not, during the armored push into Baghdad in 2003, the American tanks took hundreds of RPG hits, and the only tank to be disabled was one that was hit in the exhaust grille by a recoiless-rifle. The RPGs only set the bags on their carriage racks on fire. That said, making infantry useless against vehicles is bad for gameplay, and gameplay>reality. Rpg is not an anti tank weapon.
CEO
Invictus Maneo~ "I remain unvanquished"
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Posted - 2013.12.01 20:10:00 -
[60] - Quote
Took out two maddys this morning, yummy.
CEO
Invictus Maneo~ "I remain unvanquished"
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