It would be prudent if as few systems were connected to the market as possible as this will allow the market to reach its dynamic equilibrium sooner, and would provide much cleaner data to boot.

Could you explain this a bit more please, I'm not sure which things you recommend not connecting to the market? The idea that player trading become active is to A: remove the npc manufactured items and B: to allow players to get rid of the items they don't want or need. There would need to be a replacement for the npc market. The clear solution is to allow Eve pilots to build and sell the items to us or to allow us to build them somehow ourselves (extremely large addition of extra parts to this game, mineral extraction and industry to name a few). This produces a system where the supply must rise to fill the demand and make it worthwhile to have Eve allies.

The reason contracts would need to be in place is for people wishing to sell gear to specific groups who would place an order for say 50,000 Duvolle Assault Rifles. Rather than sell the rifles to everyone, they would be assigned a bulk cost and sold to the group for X amount of Isk through the purchase price of the contract. Ensuring that shipments need only go to one location for pickup and it allows Eve corps to help equalize the playing field or stack it in their favor, limiting supply to allies rather than supplying the enemies with arms.

Stabilizing the market is all fine and good but there will never be an entirely stable market and there will always be fluctuations in it as popular items sell faster and so less popular may be cheaper or non-existent in some areas. This is also normal and in the genre of game this is I see it as being vital for shaping the game and the way the meta game is played.

Could you explain this a bit more please, I'm not sure which things you recommend not connecting to the market? The idea that player trading become active is to A: remove the npc manufactured items and B: to allow players to get rid of the items they don't want or need. There would need to be a replacement for the npc market. The clear solution is to allow Eve pilots to build and sell the items to us or to allow us to build them somehow ourselves (extremely large addition of extra parts to this game, mineral extraction and industry to name a few). This produces a system where the supply must rise to fill the demand and make it worthwhile to have Eve allies.

The reason contracts would need to be in place is for people wishing to sell gear to specific groups who would place an order for say 50,000 Duvolle Assault Rifles. Rather than sell the rifles to everyone, they would be assigned a bulk cost and sold to the group for X amount of Isk through the purchase price of the contract. Ensuring that shipments need only go to one location for pickup and it allows Eve corps to help equalize the playing field or stack it in their favor, limiting supply to allies rather than supplying the enemies with arms.

Stabilizing the market is all fine and good but there will never be an entirely stable market and there will always be fluctuations in it as popular items sell faster and so less popular may be cheaper or non-existent in some areas. This is also normal and in the genre of game this is I see it as being vital for shaping the game and the way the meta game is played.

You are right, there is a plan for manufacturing but as of yet I have not seen any blueprints on the market for items which says to me that there is no plan in place yet for the fabrication process. In Eve when you build a T2 ship there is a good deal of research time on the blueprint that needs to occur before any manufacturing can be done.

This system is what I speculate would provide us with our Advanced and Prototype gear which I am sure there will be a good market for, and what worries me is that if tomorrow they were to put the market up for use, we would not have items we all like available for purchase anymore unless the NPC market would have an initial offering of items which we could buy up in a finite quantity to slowly remove the NPC market.

The solution is to add the blueprints to the Eve market for sale pre-market. This allows people to buy the BPOs to research them and start the manufacture process so that we can actually have player made modules, suits and weapons.

Sorry, i was a little vague there. I meant that, as a temporary measure, just releasing the ISK-mediated player market would allow the pent-up demand for player trading to settle out to something like its normal behaviour.

The advantages of this would be to contain any unforeseen weirdness , to give a clean dataset by which to model DUST player-market behaviour without introducing multiple new variables.

Once that initial unloading of Thales has happened, and we've seen the very interesting answer as to how much peeps will pay for Balacs and Gastuns once the stockpiles are gone, then yes, we should start connecting all these disparate systems(LP, player contracts, bounties, gambling, drone rewards, salvage, etc). I'd also be tempted to do that one system at a time for the very same reasons as presented above.

Of all these systems, the one that matters most for New Eden is the player contracts, imo. The integrated market is crucial, ofc, but the potential of New Eden to generate stories depends heavily on the flexibility and robustness of the player contract system. So it's not that i don't want all these things, it's just a question about what the 'right' order to release them in is.

well they could ease the transition like they did in eve by taking npc items off as they went along, as for the advanced and prototype i bet right about now there are a tonne of players that have these and aren't using them for whatever reason, because there is too much experimentation happening because there is no clear information on what is actively a good or bad fit for you (the practice room/shooting range might fix this but then again it depends on it's flexibility.)

You're right we have stockpiles of weapons that we may or may not want to sell. I am not sure that one at a time would be better than all at once in this case though. I am talking about two systems at once, the player market and the contract market. These allow players to trade directly with other players and I feel like they are separate beasts enough in their own rights and able to stand alone but fail to see the benefit of doing them separately.

CCP already has a good deal of experience implementing the player trading system and think that it would be relatively easy to set up a system that would allow us all what we need without compromising one portion for a time until they see some stability. In the end dev choices will cause fluctuations and FOTM attitudes as well as war and peace. This game is built around offering mercs the ability to make choices that make a difference and some of those choices in Eve affect them economically, the one driving factor that should allow this game to rise from the ashes. There is no amount of time that can prevent devs and players from changing things and I don't think that we would need a cool-down period but rather expect prices to continue wild fluctuations for the first year if not more as there are many more items to add to game and fix.

Yes but what they are currently planning if i am understanding correctly is the removal of a source of isk one of the very few and no replacement and yeah you could say lp is a replacement, but i have gone my whole eve play time of 4-5 years with barely touching any of the lp items because it's not a replacement especially when there is an isk cost and item cost along side it. dust players are mercs correct would you hand a real merc toy money that can only be spent at certain places or give him real money that can be used everywhere.

You have hit the nail on the head. I have not had much use for LP unless I want faction ammo or implants, and see the bling ships as a big target to shoot at that looks good on a killboard. For instance, Megathron vs Vindicator, I would pick the Vindi as my target rather than the Megathron. There is way too much value put on the faction items without having a way to sell them are we going to actually want to buy them?

and often the effort one player has to put in to gain these non transferable points is ridiculous for what the player gets in return. "ooohh this ship has one extra high mid and low with a little bit of a stats buff." i say so what at the end of the day it doesn't matter when a non faction ship can wipe the floor with that expensive faction ship for cheaper cost and less time invested.

In the case of Dust, with current TTK being rather high I would think that adding a faction mod market would be a bad idea (TTK=2-3 s for the toughest fit available). Combined DPS should be a concern for people considering using faction weapons, tank and gank mods and so we are back to what is better right now, an Isk sink or a resource for mercs to make a bit more Isk before getting geared up with Faction everything.

I saw/read somewhere recently (I want to say it was the Dust panel at EVE Vegas, CCP LeKjart speaking) something along these lines:

"We could come up with a reward system for FW that we'd want to change once the in-game market was available, which we expect to be soon (but not as soon as FW changes), or we could implement a long-term solution that assumes the presence of the market now, and let things be a little akward in-game for FW while the market is missing. To save dev time in the long run, we decided to go with the latter option."

All terribly paraphrased, but that's the gist of it. So, they know it's an issue, but consider it to be the lesser of evils. Personally, I tend to agree, as I hope that an extra isk sink will reduce proto-stomping for a while. That could just be a pipe dream on my part, though -_-

I saw/read somewhere recently (I want to say it was the Dust panel at EVE Vegas, CCP LeKjart speaking) something along these lines:

"We could come up with a reward system for FW that we'd want to change once the in-game market was available, which we expect to be soon (but not as soon as FW changes), or we could implement a long-term solution that assumes the presence of the market now, and let things be a little akward in-game for FW while the market is missing. To save dev time in the long run, we decided to go with the latter option."

All terribly paraphrased, but that's the gist of it. So, they know it's an issue, but consider it to be the lesser of evils. Personally, I tend to agree, as I hope that an extra isk sink will reduce proto-stomping for a while. That could just be a pipe dream on my part, though -_-

The market is something that's being pushed for heavily. We probably won't see it in 1.7 but it is something that is *apparently* under active work (IE: NOT on the backburner), judging by our chats with CCP.

So, fear not. CCP knows the market is a big deal and wants to deliver. As far as when? No idea.

I saw/read somewhere recently (I want to say it was the Dust panel at EVE Vegas, CCP LeKjart speaking) something along these lines:

"We could come up with a reward system for FW that we'd want to change once the in-game market was available, which we expect to be soon (but not as soon as FW changes), or we could implement a long-term solution that assumes the presence of the market now, and let things be a little akward in-game for FW while the market is missing. To save dev time in the long run, we decided to go with the latter option."

All terribly paraphrased, but that's the gist of it. So, they know it's an issue, but consider it to be the lesser of evils. Personally, I tend to agree, as I hope that an extra isk sink will reduce proto-stomping for a while. That could just be a pipe dream on my part, though -_-

sigh just when i thought the proto-stomping would disappear.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118481&find=unread
a november long event about proto stomping to get drop suits >.<

Now that is a proper isk sink, play the accelerated week, log in the next week for the black eagle suits, skip the event, login the next week after, play with a Toxin fit BPO suit in that week to win proto weapons, I like the plan already. BTW are there any Black Eagle Logi suits?

I will buy your salvaged/AUR vehicles for ISK. If I can find a high skill level pilot whom can fit all vehicles with most modules I will be able to deal in vehicle modules also but it will be more time consuming. I NEED a merc who knows vehicles and what they are worth. When I say need I mean I should have already had one. I am already in a negotiation with another player and I don't know vehicles well enough to make intelligent offers.

If you are bored with the every day PVP of DUST then maybe becoming a Procurement Officer (PO) for the Terrestrial Trading Consortium of New Eden (TTCoNE) is for you. PILOTS are badly needed! If you don't want to become a PO then donations are being accepted from individuals and corporations. The upcoming vehicle and AV tweaks my change piloting for the better and securing you spot in the auction channels may save you or your corporation tons of ISK.

Solo mercs who want access to our inventory and free access to auction channels are welcome to put in applications. Our corporate tax rate is 7% and all donations and taxes go directly to our purchasing wallets. Any merc seen fighting for TTCoNE does so under their own wallet and independently of the TTCoNE. Only POs are autorized to do business under the TTCoNE banner and all orders should only be placed with TTCoNE POs.

Why, for the love of Dust, has this not been implemented yet?

I don't think that moving between stations is necessary for this, this is the part where eve side support comes in, moving goods to the appropriate locations and making them available for consumption. Implementing a buy order system in this game would give us the ability to purchase items at our locations without the need to go somewhere else. This would also by necessity involve a trade items option between dust and dust as well as eve to dust and dust to eve.

I don't think that moving between stations is necessary for this, this is the part where eve side support comes in, moving goods to the appropriate locations and making them available for consumption. Implementing a buy order system in this game would give us the ability to purchase items at our locations without the need to go somewhere else. This would also by necessity involve a trade items option between dust and dust as well as eve to dust and dust to eve.

EVE integration can be phased in later, such as EVE manufacturing replacing the NPC market, and EVE players buying DUST Drone salvage to build gear to sell to DUST mercs.

Fox, Jackal, I like both of your ideas, but wonder, are mercenaries going to want to spend the SP training manufacturing skills? I have seen numerous posts on ideas from mining to PI to manufacture but can't help but think that New Eden is already reliant on capsuleers for minerals, PI products and research as well as manufacturing.

With such a strong base towards all these things, doesn't it make sense to give Eve players a reason to care about what goes on in the Dust areas? I see little interaction with the Dust players in so far as to not feel rewarded in one bit for successfully dropping an orbital, and while it helps Dust players to have the backup in space there is no payoff for Eve players to do this.

A kill mail doesn't pay for a ship that drops the orbital and it is silly to think that having an Eve fleet of Battleships, Battlecruiser, Cruisers, destroyers and Frigates even at low tech levels and often at higher tech levels, could pay for itself. Where is the benefit to losing a 300mil isk ship, even just one, to make sure the fleet can get the orbital off. Where is the benefit to losing even a 10 mil isk ship to get the orbital off? There is none other than to Dust players.

This interaction of being able to destroy equipment and gear and then sell it to the same person is what makes New Eden great. Only allowing mercenaries to manufacture the equipment used detracts from the interaction that many of us long for and hope for. One of a symbiotic nature rather than just being ants on the ground to be crushed, the lifeblood of a new economy, one that strengthens both parties and binds them together.

In conclusion, I respectfully submit that you both are being shortsighted in your desires to contain the market to the Dust community, there is a bigger universe out there with opportunities to bring new Eve pilots into your corporations and teach them about the other half of New Eden. Don't you want to manufacture your own equipment with the support of your Eve pilots bringing their considerable industrial might to bear?

It's not so much that we want to contain ourselves to DUST only, it's that DUST needs to stand alone in the first instance. having it be reliant on EVE only puts our players at EVE's mercy. Something CCP and most of the community will not want.

The fact that EVE already has a manufacturing base doesn't preclude DUST having one, however the implementation WILL have to be different. I have a few ideas on how it could be implemented with little to no 'Roid Shooting', but DUST needs to take care of DUST.

Imagine if the tables were flipped. Do you think EVE Players would like it if they HAD to come to DUST players to get their ships? We manufactured for them, and removed their ability to manufacture?

EVE to EVE, and DUST to DUST at first. Let them stand apart and whole, then fill in the grey area to 'enhance' but not make reliant upon each other.

Consider the Yulai Accord as a good reason not to mine. Consider also the vast number of additions in assets to the game that would be needed for this just in manufacturing alone. I also humbly submit that if you think you can mine better with a pickaxe than a Hulk and Rorqual, have at er. Manufacturing in Dust would be a joke.

It's not like we actually have a reason to at the moment and if we have people scouring planets for parts etc, what would happen to the lobby? OMG another good reason to go Open World, still I don't believe that manufacturing items in Dust is realistic. Are you going to haul the stuff to the market on your back, across countless solar systems and regions, with scotty the drunken matchmaker sending you there? I think not.

Actually I'd prefer to keep it within DUST at all times.

Being reliant on EVE makes the game subject to EVE whim, and forces us to play EVE to some extent. DUST should be able to be contained just within DUST, but reward for using EVE on top of the 'complete' game itself.

So DUST Manufacture would have to replace the NPC Market, with some high-grade weapons, vehciles, armours possible only through interaction between the two (and vice versa for EVE-side using DUST Materials to further augment EVE-based markets items) rather than be dependant on each other.

If DUST becomes dependant on EVE, then it's a weighted scaled since EVE would either a) be the 'lord', able to control DUST via markets, or b) ALSO be dependant on DUST in an EQUAL way which would mean changing EVE and probably annoying most of their player base that suddenly they can't master their own universe without help from outside the game itself.

Let's keep markets in DUST, DUST controlled, with EVE augmentation, not reliance.

Fox, Jackal, I like both of your ideas, but wonder, are mercenaries going to want to spend the SP training manufacturing skills? I have seen numerous posts on ideas from mining to PI to manufacture but can't help but think that New Eden is already reliant on capsuleers for minerals, PI products and research as well as manufacturing.

With such a strong base towards all these things, doesn't it make sense to give Eve players a reason to care about what goes on in the Dust areas? I see little interaction with the Dust players in so far as to not feel rewarded in one bit for successfully dropping an orbital, and while it helps Dust players to have the backup in space there is no payoff for Eve players to do this.

A kill mail doesn't pay for a ship that drops the orbital and it is silly to think that having an Eve fleet of Battleships, Battlecruiser, Cruisers, destroyers and Frigates even at low tech levels and often at higher tech levels, could pay for itself. Where is the benefit to losing a 300mil isk ship, even just one, to make sure the fleet can get the orbital off. Where is the benefit to losing even a 10 mil isk ship to get the orbital off? There is none other than to Dust players.

This interaction of being able to destroy equipment and gear and then sell it to the same person is what makes New Eden great. Only allowing mercenaries to manufacture the equipment used detracts from the interaction that many of us long for and hope for. One of a symbiotic nature rather than just being ants on the ground to be crushed, the lifeblood of a new economy, one that strengthens both parties and binds them together.

In conclusion, I respectfully submit that you both are being shortsighted in your desires to contain the market to the Dust community, there is a bigger universe out there with opportunities to bring new Eve pilots into your corporations and teach them about the other half of New Eden. Don't you want to manufacture your own equipment with the support of your Eve pilots bringing their considerable industrial might to bear?

CCP still consjder dust their little side project. Hilmar said in a recent interview that they would rather work on the fps part instead of improving the connection so I guess we'll be waiting a long time

Ok, let's look at this from an EVE point of View.

(And yes, there are trader coalitions that force set price bubbles in systems and / or regions to maintain profit... if you undercut them, they buy at your discounted price, and relist it at their price. It is VERY common in EVE.)

The smallest ship that EVE players can make is the Shuttle. It has a 5,000m3 Volume, and 1,600 metric tonnes. It requires 2750 Tritanium (Extremely Common Element) at 'perfect' skills to mak.

Now though we don't have the detailed information of volume and weight in DUST, we can be pretty accurate that a HAV weighs at least 1/10th of that (16 metric tonnes) probably less, but I'm doing this to illustrate a point.

Now the Caldari Shuttle sells for an average of 10-15k ISK in The Forge (Main Trade Hub is Jita). You reduce the materials by 1/10th and the cost as well (since EVE pilots wont need as much materials to manufacture) and you get a Tank on a rough equivalent scale of 275 Tritanium, and an average sale price of 1 - 1.5k for 'baseline' averages.

Imagine if HAVs started costing that little... and suits, weapons, anything that is DUST, since it's relative scale is so much smaller. Where as, if you make the materials to build things DUST-side, you have the ability to further modify the prices by changing the requirements to build it outside of EVE-based material levels.

I think this problem, is in part, one of the costs of poor implementation of the currency values in DUST, compared to EVE, but yeah. All you need is for DUST mercs to gain special materials used for DUST gear. Eventually through PvE perhaps, but one source, for now, could be the reprocessing of salvage.

Draco, that was a well thought out post and a solid argument.

Edit: So, minus the mining part, what do you think of my suggestion for PVE/PVP raiding in districts?

I would be very doubtful you will see an "open map" for years, if ever. Given the limitations they're hitting with their design on the PS3, I'd expect such a drastic expansion to be after a PS4 version, and then the eventual closure of the PS3 version. As even once we get a PS4 version, backwards compatibility will likely keep certain limitations in place.

I can see that you have a hard time believing that this is possible, but NASA landed on the moon with 640kb of Ram, couldn't CCP do better? Do you play COD?

It sounds like you need an introduction to CCP.

Look at DUST right now. This is CCP with like five years of development work.

Draco, the problem is that the suggestion that CCP switch to an open world model is simply not in the bounds of reality. If a CPM member starts going on about open world, it'd actually be harmful to the CPM, because CCP would disregard what they say entirely, due to how unrealistic the goal is. For the CPM to be effective, the goals have to be realistic.

There's a ton of options on where to go to make gameplay more dynamic, to make the game feel more like a sandbox, and such. But any sort of open world would likely involve years of development time, and an outright abandonment of the current game in the meantime. You talk about switching game engines like that is less than actually deleting everything and starting over from scratch.

And throwing some money at the problem and hiring more people does not actually make a problem go away, or even necessarily become quicker to solve.

any sort of open world would likely involve years of development time, and an outright abandonment of the current game in the meantime.

I don't agree with you nor am I currently running for CPM. Neither should you be, and bringing in the idea that you have already been elected to CPM1 is not something I suggest you do in any future dealings with players.

Switching game engines doesn't need to be deleting everything and starting from scratch, for instance, player stats, skills and gear is stored on a SQL D-base on the Eve server. The maps are but a graphic that has been vectored to have structure, something that can easily be replicated in something such as Blender, and in all reality can be copied over to any new game engine they choose to use.

Don't run for CPM, you don't want to fix things. If you did you would offer ideas, rather than just saying it can't be done.

At no point did I ever do this.

Switching game engines doesn't need to be deleting everything and starting from scratch, for instance, player stats, skills and gear is stored on a SQL D-base on the Eve server. The maps are but a graphic that has been vectored to have structure, something that can easily be replicated in something such as Blender, and in all reality can be copied over to any new game engine they choose to use.

I think you vastly underestimate how much of the game is actual code that has to actually be rewritten to use a different game engine. Like vastly. Years of development work. The entire game code, as a whole. I'm not talking about user data. I'm talking about the game mechanics. Rewriting all of them, from scratch.

Incorrect. I have offered plenty of ideas, all over these forums. But they'd be wasted in a thread where the OP thinks the game engine is plug-and-playable. There's actually a document I wrote up that I'm waiting to run by someone else before I post up anywhere. It's kinda a high-concept long-term plan thing.

If CCP starts over from scratch it would take years to get back to the quality of game we have now.

I think a better solution is for CCP to do as much as they can within the bounds of their current technology, and then expand on that as the technology improves. Maybe someday they will be able to unlock that door in your merc quarters.

But for now, we could get a semblance of Open World by allowing players to enter their CorporationGÇÖs districts when there is not a battle going on. We could have less formal conflicts by having a total Cap for number of mercs in a District (due to hardware restrictions), but not capping how many per side (or having uneven caps so that defenders have a home field advantage and attackers have to behave like a raiding party.)

I'm running out hands to facepalm with. Out of curiosity, when you say you have "ten years of coding experience", have you ever worked with a game engine? Or Unreal, specifically?

I don't think this would necessarily need to be a start over from scratch, CCP can modify code, Eve has proved this with it's Open World play style and it shows that there is promise in the idea that Jackal posted during Open Beta. I can't find the link but I am sure he would remember it. Still the idea that the each part of new eden should need the other is important for this game. I don't think that asking for this kind of interconnection is unrealistic and rather would help introduce new things to do in both Eve and Dust, allowing us to have more fun. Honestly, it makes no sense to me as to why anyone would want to be trapped in their quarters all the time unless given a gun to go shoot some random redberries.

Just so you understand the problem, it is not hardware restrictions, rather it is coding restrictions, problems with the Unreal Engine that are causing the trouble. It was only ever meant to be a holdover until Open World gameplay had time to be developed. They were talking about designing their own engine to deal with Open World. This is something I feel should have its own separate team of Devs to accomplish, working alongside to maintain the game mechanics changes as they happen and implement them into the Open World coding.

Why live in a box, there is a whole universe out there?

EVE pilots can only leave their quarters by boarding their ship. Yes EVE is open world, but that world is space, which by definition is virtually empty. It is a sky box, and a few props scattered in a sea of black nothing. I donGÇÖt think the equivalent could be done with DUST. You could make a flat grey surface which stretched for miles in every direction, but it would not be very interesting.

I know WOW did open world by splitting the map into zones, so only one zone would load up at a time. Maybe something like that could be done in DUST with districts.

For all your 10 years of experience programming, your ideas sound like vapour-ware to me. You say the Unreal Engine is not good and that CCP could easily create a new Game Engine from scratch that would fix all their problems and allow them to do massive open world game play on the PS3. I may not have a lot of programming experience compared to you and Soraya Xel, but that sounds a bit far fetched to me.

Ok because I am not sure anyone in Dust understands the Yulai Accord, it outlawed mining the planetary surfaces. Players strip mined the planets for minerals causing wholesale destruction of people, animals and the vegetation of the planets.

I am not suggesting that anyone repeal this law, but rather suggest there are better ways to acquire minerals, for example Miners in Eve have vast resources, can do it better and faster than anyone on a planet ever could. I also think that extracting mins from salvage and giving parts of the pool to mercs would not help anyone and would rather make the market process for mercs more complicated, with less isk to go around.

Manufacturing large quantities of items is something that Eve pilots have become great at, have whole skill groups dedicated to and would be more than adequate to provide for Dust with little effort on their part involved.

Having Dust stand on its own as a game really isn't that difficult to do. For instance, Eve player contracts, and real benefits for players to acquire districts, would allow us to become a necessary part of Eve and not an afterthought. I thought we were supposed to be Mercenaries, not boardroom traders and industrialists.

In addition to this, PC battles could actually move the available PC districts up in number, spreading the conflict to the surrounding solar systems, and help Eve players maintain control over their PI while massive attacks from drones come to harvest the in place extraction materials.

Another benefit to PC battles could be the ability to deploy to districts owned to explore them, root out drones to kill and practice basic teamwork as well as make encroachments on other people's districts, areas they do PVE in and ambush them to cause tears, and I know CCP likes tears.

Including salvage from Drones found on planetary surfaces as materials for weapons, equipment and dropsuits would be a great way to make Eve players (again manufacturing items) dependant on the Dust market for their manufacturing processes and would help keep the fluctuations balanced.

Keeping the manufacturing processes in Eve would mean we could keep product transportation in the hands of Eve pilots as well, a task they are quite suited for and have adequate ways to do this.

Original plans for Dust included troop transport by Eve players. This would remove the inability to move from station to station to acquire goods remotely. Another option is allow the players to make Jump Clones, allowing instantaneous transport between systems. I could see Jita quickly becoming clogged with Dust players looking for a deal and recommend building a new market hub for Dust Items or using Rens or Hek as their main trade hub as the local population usually doesn't go higher than 1000 players at any one time that I have seen in my trade trips.

On top of all this, there has been talk in the past of giving mercs the ability to take to the stars, to go attack Eve ships with boarding modules and take them over for Eve players, transporting a Dust player may become necessary if this were to happen, rather than destroying a ship (something that fuels the market currently). This would become especially useful in Null Sec as I am sure there are some pilots with their eyes on other Pilot's Titans, Carriers and Rorquals not to mention High Sec Gankers looking for an easier way to move their spoils of war through capturing whole Freighters or Orcas being used to haul goods to market.

This would essentially turn Dust into an Open World game, for the most part giving us other avenues isk gain, tears, and providing a manufacturing line from supply, to manufacturing and market. I really don't think that Dust would be unable to stand on its own as a game, it was meant to be a part of New Eden, not separate from it.

One Universe::One War

Note: The Yulai Accord has already been broken. Otherwise what do you think Planetary Interaction is?

I am just suggesting that going with their original plan may be best, to build their own engine from scratch, something they have proven that they can do, as show with Eve, Eve Valkyrie, and that Vampire game they were building. I hate how everyone thinks that CCP can't do this or that, look at Eve GodDammit its a masterpiece.

They built one. Carbon can barely support a single character in a single room on even high end PCs. World of Darkness is vaporware. Valkyrie is in development, and also, for now, vaporware. EVE is layers of bad, worse, and decent code layered on top of each other and held together with duct tape. It's maybe a masterpiece in the way Picasso is a masterpiece: So freaking weird, you just have to marvel at it.

The ludicrousness of saying "just suggesting" and "build their own engine" in the same sentence speaks of someone with an unhinged view of development. Rome was not built in a day, and neither was Unreal, Frostbite, Source, or any other game engine.

Dude, you were specifically talking about the game engine. Pot, meet kettle.

I believe they make perfectly fine software, but I also realize it takes a lot of time, something you don't seem to grasp.

I didn't say it wasn't good, what I implied was that there are issues with it. It is great for a lobby shooter, but that is not what having a combined PVE/PVP environment where people can move between districts implies, and I think it would cause issues due to the current issues it is having with 16v16 battles and equipment spam. Now add NPCs and an undefined number of players all being instanced in the unreal engine (which at its hey day supported if I remember correctly up to 24 players). What is clear is that CCP has issues with lag spike and their current engine, what is not clear is what would be the best fix.

I am just suggesting that going with their original plan may be best, to build their own engine from scratch, something they have proven that they can do, as show with Eve, Eve Valkyrie, and that Vampire game they were building. I hate how everyone thinks that CCP can't do this or that, look at Eve GodDammit its a masterpiece.

I'll bet when the first person suggested Dust, there were those that thought it was vaporware too.

If CCP is going to switch to using a different Game Engin, particularly if they are going to create that Game Engin themselves, they should do so as part of the move to PS4. Much of the game will have to be replicated in a new format for the PS4 anyway.

Starting over with a new Game Engin on the PS3 would seem to me to be a waist of resources. Can we agree on this point?

Indeed, I mentioned that if it were not possible within the existing one that there are alternatives to be explored, not that it had to be done now. You still have missed the topic though in almost all of your posts, One Universe::One Market.

This market endeavor needs to be pursued more fully and it requires certain things to be complete, I fully realize this. I also notice that there are several things even just as recently as this last patch that didn't need to be in place for this to happen, such as all the new faction items.

This massive influx of "new gear" that replicates what the old does, is not necessary, but it is here now. I assume from the move to complete the asset list for all classes is at the moment more important to CCP but I still think we can have a viable connected market if they chose a direction and started on their way down that path.

It still seems a very long road to travel with only an NPC market and so many industrialists in Eve able to produce gear for us just waiting and watching to see if CCP connects the games in a way that makes a difference to them. This would do it.

If I remember correctly the EVE/DUST link and a real economy was one of Soraya XelGÇÖs priorities.

I think the whole argument between you two started when you mentioned that GÇ£Yesterday in Null Sec there were over 1000 people duking it out with Titans and Sub Caps, that is the ability I want for DustGÇ¥ and he pointed out that their were technological restrictions preventing that from happening. Then you got mad at him for being a downer, and the two of you started arguing over what was possible from a programming standpoint. To be fair to Soraya Xel, he was mostly talking about ISK exchange rates and similar on topic posts before that.

Back on topic. My suggestion to start with a DUST only market is for faster implementation, and to test and refine the interface, as the same interface would be used in an EVE/DUST market. I am also not suggesting that they hold off on development of the EVE/DUST market. I just think that will take longer to develop, so they can release the DUST/DUST market soon, and add in the other components as they are ready. I just don't want to wait another 6 months to sell my salvage.

Draco, I told you why. Multiple times. If you aren't capable of grasping it, that's really not my fault. I guess I can apologize for failing to dumb it down far enough for you, I suppose. I have failed you, and for that I'm sorry.

I am fully in support of a full EVE/DUST combined player market. As it is, DUST items are already visible in EVE, EVE players are just prohibited from actually buying them. I think CCP should indeed focus on getting currencies aligned and getting a cross-game market in place within the next calendar year. Hopefully, they can get us something in that regard in time for Fanfest.

I think the EVE and DUST markets should stay separate but one thing should happen. Like the EVE market we, in Dust, should be able to sell stuff back into the market like suits we cant use or equipment we wont use.

We should be able to sell them for half o fthe original price.
AUR items.......eh are a little sketchy cause I don't think they should be able to be sold back but all ISK items yes.

I don't think Soraya Xel is in it for anyone other than Soraya Xel and I really don't care what he is selling, I'm not buying, everyone wants a market. As for the merits of his argument, just saying no it can't happen without a reason for it is stupid. It gives the illusion of knowledge without any proof and sounds like my kids when they don't want to eat their vegetables.

Your Dust to Dust market idea seems ok but I'd like to point out that there is gear loss, salvage is not 100% and this means we need people to manufacture the gear for us. Plain and simple the easy route in this is an Eve to Dust to Eve market. This reduces overhead on Dust and would only require CCP to implement a PVE with salvage mode to make it work in addition to the market, whether it is whakamole in the MQ for salvage or all out PVE with an Open World.

Edit: Salvage could also be in the form of Scrap Metal or "Charged Sniper Scope", a slight change to how the PVP battles are salvaged with greater salvage acquired, with no need for PVE although this would disappoint a few people.

Edit2: So basically you don't think the OW expansion is a near future thing, still something they indicated during Closed Beta was possible and probably in the nearish future. This tells me that they believe it is.

If CCP decide to give us Open World it will still take them a few months to develop it. The task of the CPM is to convince CCP to start working on it. Since they donGÇÖt seem to be working on it right no, the answer is No, it will not be a near future thing. When they do start working on it, then it will be an In a Couple of Months thing.

No. It's not a near future thing. An open world game design (aka, no redline, you can go from district to district on the ground) is more likely an almost probably never thing. The CPM5 might have to deal with that.