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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
984
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Posted - 2014.01.25 10:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Why, for the love of Dust, has this not been implemented yet?
There could be massive backlogs in doing so. As, unlike EVE, DUST players cannot move around. So goods would all be posted on an Open Market only. And without some kind of industrial backbone, the only thing you'd truly stand to set prices for are non-listed items, such as Officer Weapons.
In EVE, people can compete on prices by mining to reduce their ISK costs, and undersell their competition, or buy low in a trade hub, ferry the goods to more isolated space, and sell for higher price making a profit. We haven't got these tools in DUST... yet.
I'm in full support of a Player Market, but there needs to be something to kindle it first. I say start with player trading, bypass the market for now, and see how direct ISK for Goods works before trying something like a player market. We don't have enough control in DUST yet to operate a proper Player Market.
Though I hope to see this really soon.
"Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys."
Sun Tzu
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
994
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Posted - 2014.01.26 12:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:I don't think that moving between stations is necessary for this, this is the part where eve side support comes in, moving goods to the appropriate locations and making them available for consumption. Implementing a buy order system in this game would give us the ability to purchase items at our locations without the need to go somewhere else. This would also by necessity involve a trade items option between dust and dust as well as eve to dust and dust to eve.
The issue with this is it leaves us reliant on EVE side support to get the goods. Which isn't what we want for DUST. The 2 games need to be able to stand separate as well as together.
While interaction on the market between EVE and DUST would be a good idea, the same functionality needs to be implemented.
EVE Traders wont invest time into filling Buy Orders if they don't stand to make a profit. And until DUST can manufacture it's own goods, NPC traders should always bee selling.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
994
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Posted - 2014.01.27 00:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:
EVE integration can be phased in later, such as EVE manufacturing replacing the NPC market, and EVE players buying DUST Drone salvage to build gear to sell to DUST mercs.
Actually I'd prefer to keep it within DUST at all times.
Being reliant on EVE makes the game subject to EVE whim, and forces us to play EVE to some extent. DUST should be able to be contained just within DUST, but reward for using EVE on top of the 'complete' game itself.
So DUST Manufacture would have to replace the NPC Market, with some high-grade weapons, vehciles, armours possible only through interaction between the two (and vice versa for EVE-side using DUST Materials to further augment EVE-based markets items) rather than be dependant on each other.
If DUST becomes dependant on EVE, then it's a weighted scaled since EVE would either a) be the 'lord', able to control DUST via markets, or b) ALSO be dependant on DUST in an EQUAL way which would mean changing EVE and probably annoying most of their player base that suddenly they can't master their own universe without help from outside the game itself.
Let's keep markets in DUST, DUST controlled, with EVE augmentation, not reliance.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
994
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 09:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Fox, Jackal, I like both of your ideas, but wonder, are mercenaries going to want to spend the SP training manufacturing skills? I have seen numerous posts on ideas from mining to PI to manufacture but can't help but think that New Eden is already reliant on capsuleers for minerals, PI products and research as well as manufacturing.
With such a strong base towards all these things, doesn't it make sense to give Eve players a reason to care about what goes on in the Dust areas? I see little interaction with the Dust players in so far as to not feel rewarded in one bit for successfully dropping an orbital, and while it helps Dust players to have the backup in space there is no payoff for Eve players to do this.
A kill mail doesn't pay for a ship that drops the orbital and it is silly to think that having an Eve fleet of Battleships, Battlecruiser, Cruisers, destroyers and Frigates even at low tech levels and often at higher tech levels, could pay for itself. Where is the benefit to losing a 300mil isk ship, even just one, to make sure the fleet can get the orbital off. Where is the benefit to losing even a 10 mil isk ship to get the orbital off? There is none other than to Dust players.
This interaction of being able to destroy equipment and gear and then sell it to the same person is what makes New Eden great. Only allowing mercenaries to manufacture the equipment used detracts from the interaction that many of us long for and hope for. One of a symbiotic nature rather than just being ants on the ground to be crushed, the lifeblood of a new economy, one that strengthens both parties and binds them together.
In conclusion, I respectfully submit that you both are being shortsighted in your desires to contain the market to the Dust community, there is a bigger universe out there with opportunities to bring new Eve pilots into your corporations and teach them about the other half of New Eden. Don't you want to manufacture your own equipment with the support of your Eve pilots bringing their considerable industrial might to bear?
It's not so much that we want to contain ourselves to DUST only, it's that DUST needs to stand alone in the first instance. having it be reliant on EVE only puts our players at EVE's mercy. Something CCP and most of the community will not want.
The fact that EVE already has a manufacturing base doesn't preclude DUST having one, however the implementation WILL have to be different. I have a few ideas on how it could be implemented with little to no 'Roid Shooting', but DUST needs to take care of DUST.
Imagine if the tables were flipped. Do you think EVE Players would like it if they HAD to come to DUST players to get their ships? We manufactured for them, and removed their ability to manufacture?
EVE to EVE, and DUST to DUST at first. Let them stand apart and whole, then fill in the grey area to 'enhance' but not make reliant upon each other.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
994
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 09:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:The Black Jackal wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:Fox, Jackal, I like both of your ideas, but wonder, are mercenaries going to want to spend the SP training manufacturing skills? I have seen numerous posts on ideas from mining to PI to manufacture but can't help but think that New Eden is already reliant on capsuleers for minerals, PI products and research as well as manufacturing.
With such a strong base towards all these things, doesn't it make sense to give Eve players a reason to care about what goes on in the Dust areas? I see little interaction with the Dust players in so far as to not feel rewarded in one bit for successfully dropping an orbital, and while it helps Dust players to have the backup in space there is no payoff for Eve players to do this.
A kill mail doesn't pay for a ship that drops the orbital and it is silly to think that having an Eve fleet of Battleships, Battlecruiser, Cruisers, destroyers and Frigates even at low tech levels and often at higher tech levels, could pay for itself. Where is the benefit to losing a 300mil isk ship, even just one, to make sure the fleet can get the orbital off. Where is the benefit to losing even a 10 mil isk ship to get the orbital off? There is none other than to Dust players.
This interaction of being able to destroy equipment and gear and then sell it to the same person is what makes New Eden great. Only allowing mercenaries to manufacture the equipment used detracts from the interaction that many of us long for and hope for. One of a symbiotic nature rather than just being ants on the ground to be crushed, the lifeblood of a new economy, one that strengthens both parties and binds them together.
In conclusion, I respectfully submit that you both are being shortsighted in your desires to contain the market to the Dust community, there is a bigger universe out there with opportunities to bring new Eve pilots into your corporations and teach them about the other half of New Eden. Don't you want to manufacture your own equipment with the support of your Eve pilots bringing their considerable industrial might to bear? It's not so much that we want to contain ourselves to DUST only, it's that DUST needs to stand alone in the first instance. having it be reliant on EVE only puts our players at EVE's mercy. Something CCP and most of the community will not want. The fact that EVE already has a manufacturing base doesn't preclude DUST having one, however the implementation WILL have to be different. I have a few ideas on how it could be implemented with little to no 'Roid Shooting', but DUST needs to take care of DUST. Imagine if the tables were flipped. Do you think EVE Players would like it if they HAD to come to DUST players to get their ships? We manufactured for them, and removed their ability to manufacture? EVE to EVE, and DUST to DUST at first. Let them stand apart and whole, then fill in the grey area to 'enhance' but not make reliant upon each other. Consider the Yulai Accord as a good reason not to mine. Consider also the vast number of additions in assets to the game that would be needed for this just in manufacturing alone. I also humbly submit that if you think you can mine better with a pickaxe than a Hulk and Rorqual, have at er. Manufacturing in Dust would be a joke. It's not like we actually have a reason to at the moment and if we have people scouring planets for parts etc, what would happen to the lobby? OMG another good reason to go Open World, still I don't believe that manufacturing items in Dust is realistic. Are you going to haul the stuff to the market on your back, across countless solar systems and regions, with scotty the drunken matchmaker sending you there? I think not.
As I said, it has to be done differently, and probably an Open, non-location based market. BUT DUST needs to be able to cater to DUSTs needs at the core level. I play EVE, and DUST, and I would not want to hand over control of my DUST assets to my EVE player, let alone someone who may decide to bypass the market and funnel goods straight to their favourite Corp.
Each suit / vehicle must be available in DUST, provided by DUST, not provided by EVE. Self-reliance is key to making any game work. Being reliant on another game, even one as nice as EVE, means that DUST cannot stand on its own, and would either REQUIRE you to create an EVE account (leading to DUST being little more than a marketing ploy and not a complete game), or it would lead to DUST being disillusioned as thy have little control over how they get their gear, and are subject to EVE cutthroat marketing.
The fact that we can't move around, means we can't 'shop for a better deal' we'd get whatever came to our system.
All the facts point to the fact that DUST needs to be able to Support DUST and DUST alone. Anything EVE Side is augmentation and enhancement.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
994
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 12:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Interaction with EVE yes, but not giving them total control, which is what you would be doing if you made the Player Market dependant on EVE manufacturing.
What I would like to see, just to clarify, is a place that Salvage can be sold, traded etc. EVE can do so too. But the Manufacture of DUST related Gear should not go to EVE, but remain within DUST.
Now, to avoid the 'SP into Manufacturing' Dichotomy, you would make getting minerals something that is done naturally during the course of battles. (higher gather rates in Faction Warfare, Planetary Conquest, and any future Null Sec Operations based on the security Status of the system in general.
Your team controls point A, in battle this has it's obvious effect, but also builds up a team 'pot' of minerals, (this can be varied from planet-type to planet-type in the future), at the end of the match, any built up minerals are divvied out alongside ISK / LP. Based on WP / Activity.
In PC, you will send attack JUST to gain resources for your corporation. As if you attack, and control 1 point all match, you may lose the match, but gain 3 points worth of Public Resources in doing so giving war even more incentive.
Q. But what if we're relined?!
A. Your team will build up a small pot passively behind the scene. It wont equal even 1 Node's Pay out for an entire match, but you will get something. (Note: This doesn't increase with Security Status of Pub/FW/PC, as fighting should always be more rewarding than sitting back and doing naught.)
Now this isn't a be all and end all solution, but it keeps the manufacturing ability in DUST, without detracting from the FPS gameplay.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
994
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 14:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ok, let's look at this from an EVE point of View.
(And yes, there are trader coalitions that force set price bubbles in systems and / or regions to maintain profit... if you undercut them, they buy at your discounted price, and relist it at their price. It is VERY common in EVE.)
The smallest ship that EVE players can make is the Shuttle. It has a 5,000m3 Volume, and 1,600 metric tonnes.
It requires 2750 Tritanium (Extremely Common Element) at 'perfect' skills to mak.
Now though we don't have the detailed information of volume and weight in DUST, we can be pretty accurate that a HAV weighs at least 1/10th of that (16 metric tonnes) probably less, but I'm doing this to illustrate a point.
Now the Caldari Shuttle sells for an average of 10-15k ISK in The Forge (Main Trade Hub is Jita). You reduce the materials by 1/10th and the cost as well (since EVE pilots wont need as much materials to manufacture) and you get a Tank on a rough equivalent scale of 275 Tritanium, and an average sale price of 1 - 1.5k for 'baseline' averages.
Imagine if HAVs started costing that little... and suits, weapons, anything that is DUST, since it's relative scale is so much smaller. Where as, if you make the materials to build things DUST-side, you have the ability to further modify the prices by changing the requirements to build it outside of EVE-based material levels.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
997
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 23:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Ok because I am not sure anyone in Dust understands the Yulai Accord, it outlawed mining the planetary surfaces. Players strip mined the planets for minerals causing wholesale destruction of people, animals and the vegetation of the planets.
I am not suggesting that anyone repeal this law, but rather suggest there are better ways to acquire minerals, for example Miners in Eve have vast resources, can do it better and faster than anyone on a planet ever could. I also think that extracting mins from salvage and giving parts of the pool to mercs would not help anyone and would rather make the market process for mercs more complicated, with less isk to go around.
Manufacturing large quantities of items is something that Eve pilots have become great at, have whole skill groups dedicated to and would be more than adequate to provide for Dust with little effort on their part involved.
Having Dust stand on its own as a game really isn't that difficult to do. For instance, Eve player contracts, and real benefits for players to acquire districts, would allow us to become a necessary part of Eve and not an afterthought. I thought we were supposed to be Mercenaries, not boardroom traders and industrialists.
In addition to this, PC battles could actually move the available PC districts up in number, spreading the conflict to the surrounding solar systems, and help Eve players maintain control over their PI while massive attacks from drones come to harvest the in place extraction materials.
Another benefit to PC battles could be the ability to deploy to districts owned to explore them, root out drones to kill and practice basic teamwork as well as make encroachments on other people's districts, areas they do PVE in and ambush them to cause tears, and I know CCP likes tears.
Including salvage from Drones found on planetary surfaces as materials for weapons, equipment and dropsuits would be a great way to make Eve players (again manufacturing items) dependant on the Dust market for their manufacturing processes and would help keep the fluctuations balanced.
Keeping the manufacturing processes in Eve would mean we could keep product transportation in the hands of Eve pilots as well, a task they are quite suited for and have adequate ways to do this.
Original plans for Dust included troop transport by Eve players. This would remove the inability to move from station to station to acquire goods remotely. Another option is allow the players to make Jump Clones, allowing instantaneous transport between systems. I could see Jita quickly becoming clogged with Dust players looking for a deal and recommend building a new market hub for Dust Items or using Rens or Hek as their main trade hub as the local population usually doesn't go higher than 1000 players at any one time that I have seen in my trade trips.
On top of all this, there has been talk in the past of giving mercs the ability to take to the stars, to go attack Eve ships with boarding modules and take them over for Eve players, transporting a Dust player may become necessary if this were to happen, rather than destroying a ship (something that fuels the market currently). This would become especially useful in Null Sec as I am sure there are some pilots with their eyes on other Pilot's Titans, Carriers and Rorquals not to mention High Sec Gankers looking for an easier way to move their spoils of war through capturing whole Freighters or Orcas being used to haul goods to market.
This would essentially turn Dust into an Open World game, for the most part giving us other avenues isk gain, tears, and providing a manufacturing line from supply, to manufacturing and market. I really don't think that Dust would be unable to stand on its own as a game, it was meant to be a part of New Eden, not separate from it.
One Universe::One War
Note: The Yulai Accord has already been broken. Otherwise what do you think Planetary Interaction is?
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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