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Thurak1
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
308
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 21:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:CELESTA AUNGM wrote:Thurak1 wrote:It isnt proper to nerf a fg based on its effectiveness vs a dropship. After all dropships are not the only thing that a fg can shoot and should be effective against. If a FG was brought inline vs a drop ship then FG's would be crap vs tanks. It would be just as flawed as nerfing a AR because it takes out scout suits too fast. Dropships are very much on the low end of the armor scale being considered light aircraft and not even medium (which is not yet in the game). Dropships are more in line with lav hps.
What all the DS pilots really should be doing is waiting for medium and heavy aircraft.
What you all really should be bugging ccp for is medium and heavy airframes. I admire you're post, Thurak. (It's agreeing with mine, but LOL even if it wasn't in line with mine, I'd still admire it.) Somewhere between our complaints and CCP's slow approa a ADS hull costs 400k isk, so it should be strong Price is meaningless. I am sure if i wanted to i could make a dropsuit that cost 400kisk yet a 160isk AR could still take me out in 4 seconds. |
Thurak1
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
308
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 21:41:00 -
[32] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:CELESTA AUNGM wrote:Thurak1 wrote:It isnt proper to nerf a fg based on its effectiveness vs a dropship. After all dropships are not the only thing that a fg can shoot and should be effective against. If a FG was brought inline vs a drop ship then FG's would be crap vs tanks. It would be just as flawed as nerfing a AR because it takes out scout suits too fast. Dropships are very much on the low end of the armor scale being considered light aircraft and not even medium (which is not yet in the game). Dropships are more in line with lav hps.
What all the DS pilots really should be doing is waiting for medium and heavy aircraft.
What you all really should be bugging ccp for is medium and heavy airframes. I admire you're post, Thurak. (It's agreeing with mine, but LOL even if it wasn't in line with mine, I'd still admire it.) Somewhere between our complaints and CCP's slow approaching return to "fundamentals" with vehicles, the Dropship is slowly (arguably "finally") being DEFINED. It's an implied Transporter, for inserting or extracting mercs (meaning IN, can't stick around too long, then OUT)... It's a LIGHT vehicle by classification, and pilots need to keep in perspective that "light" means it's never meant to take punishment from weaponry built to punch heavier targets than us... And since the classification isn't likely to change, maybe we ought to be accepting it's defensive weaknesses as "sensible for its class", not request our enemy to be reduced just because of our adored DS, and close our book on the subject. Well-centered perspective, Thurak. Thanks No because regardless of anyone's opinion the assault fg is a high ROF massive damage weapon rather than high ROF low damage weapon really doesn't take much practice to start ROFL stomping with it. When compared to other FG's it does less damage. It also still has a 1.5 second charge up time which if your interested in doing the math on would have to be factored in. |
Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
225
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 23:20:00 -
[33] - Quote
FG is fine as it is. Derpships however are just simply deathtraps. The combination of nerfed PG and that they where ignored when every other vehicles received a HP buff was just too much for them. |
Vulpes Dolosus
Neanderthal Nation Public Disorder.
99
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 01:04:00 -
[34] - Quote
CLONE117 wrote:should i also mention that damage mods r the problem when it comes to the forge guns?
maybe u r being shot down by a breach forge?.
as thats the only variant that can ohk mostly any vehicle..
the reg fg and assault forge gun r better vs infantry than vehicles.
if u r complaining about losing derpships to a fg run an armor repper on your ship..
it will save it from falling to the ground if u r fast enough.
You'd have to be a fool to use the breach forge in place of the ridiculous dps and rapid firing of an afg.
Forge guns do not ohko well built dropships, but everything is in their favor.
Offensive, they have ridiculously more range, they have surprise, they have fire power, their shots knock dropships around which takes time to recover, and it takes 2 shots to ko the better dropships (a maximum of 3 shots for the best fit ones), and of course teamwork.
Defensively, you have huge amounts of ehp, range advantage, horrible engaging with small turrets, easy hiding places, and rendering issues.
Not to mention that it requires far more skill points to skill into dropships than forge guns and they cost easily 7-8 times more.
Forge guns are more than game-breaking and need some dire fixes asap.
PS: and no, you cannot repair from a dead dropship. And even if you could, how is that even remotely fair to shield dropships? |
Arc-08
Horizons' Edge Orion Empire
114
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 01:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
Thurak1 wrote:It isnt proper to nerf a fg based on its effectiveness vs a dropship. After all dropships are not the only thing that a fg can shoot and should be effective against. If a FG was brought inline vs a drop ship then FG's would be crap vs tanks. It would be just as flawed as nerfing a AR because it takes out scout suits too fast. Dropships are very much on the low end of the armor scale being considered light aircraft and not even medium (which is not yet in the game). Dropships are more in line with lav hps.
What all the DS pilots really should be doing is waiting for medium and heavy aircraft. Being that the DS is a light aircraft i think expecting one to survive more than 2 shots from a FG even fully speced out is asking a lot since it is a light aircraft. Look at tanks for example. A well fitted tank can survive 5 or more FG shots (well at least assault FG) so nerfing the FG based on a light aircrafts hp's is improper. Buffing a DS i would even say is improper since they are light airframes.
What you all really should be bugging ccp for is medium and heavy airframes.
No, i'm sorry i don't think you are right. Assault FG is different from regular or breach forge gun, as i have been made to realize, i belive the assault varient is specialized for dropships and infantry since they can move out of your way faster, thus assault varient needs to be brought in line to what it's specialty is, fast moving targets.
And where the heck did you get the idea for heavy and medium air frames!!!! THERE IS NO CONFRIMED DATE ON THAT, we don't even know that heavy airframes exist, thats an EVE pilot for goodness sakes, plus if you are refering to Jets as medium frame, i don't think you know what you are talking about, a jet is lighter than a dropship, if anything Dropships are the MEDIUM frame and jets will be LIGHT frame.
So i think you are just mad that dropships will be harder to take down, and you don't want your easy points taken away. Well it's one thing if its a Derpship, its an entirely different matter when you are talking about 800k to 1 mill+ dropships that are used by actual pilots. |
Arc-08
Horizons' Edge Orion Empire
114
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 01:19:00 -
[36] - Quote
okay seriously when was a dropship ever classified as a LIGHT FRAME?!! i've looked around now, and i have never seen anything that has classified dropships as light frame. http://dust514.com/universe/vehicles/
CCP EVEN STATES UNDER THE DESCRIPTION OF THE DROPSHIP that it is meant to give temporary suppresive fire/cover fire.
Which it is not capable of doing, it is capable of going in and keep moving while everybody jumps out and hopes they land on target. Very rarely can you go in and actually land people, or get close to very accurately drop sombody off in a hotzone.
WHEN HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A DROPSHIP TEMPORARILY BLOCK OFF AN AREA WHILE SUPPORTING IT'S TROOPS!!!
point and case it is NOT a LIGHT FRAME ARIEL vehicle. |
Thurak1
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
308
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 03:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
Arc-08 wrote:Thurak1 wrote:It isnt proper to nerf a fg based on its effectiveness vs a dropship. After all dropships are not the only thing that a fg can shoot and should be effective against. If a FG was brought inline vs a drop ship then FG's would be crap vs tanks. It would be just as flawed as nerfing a AR because it takes out scout suits too fast. Dropships are very much on the low end of the armor scale being considered light aircraft and not even medium (which is not yet in the game). Dropships are more in line with lav hps.
What all the DS pilots really should be doing is waiting for medium and heavy aircraft. Being that the DS is a light aircraft i think expecting one to survive more than 2 shots from a FG even fully speced out is asking a lot since it is a light aircraft. Look at tanks for example. A well fitted tank can survive 5 or more FG shots (well at least assault FG) so nerfing the FG based on a light aircrafts hp's is improper. Buffing a DS i would even say is improper since they are light airframes.
What you all really should be bugging ccp for is medium and heavy airframes. No, i'm sorry i don't think you are right. Assault FG is different from regular or breach forge gun, as i have been made to realize, i belive the assault varient is specialized for dropships and infantry since they can move out of your way faster, thus assault varient needs to be brought in line to what it's specialty is, fast moving targets. And where the heck did you get the idea for heavy and medium air frames!!!! THERE IS NO CONFRIMED DATE ON THAT, we don't even know that heavy airframes exist, thats an EVE pilot for goodness sakes, plus if you are refering to Jets as medium frame, i don't think you know what you are talking about, a jet is lighter than a dropship, if anything Dropships are the MEDIUM frame and jets will be LIGHT frame. So i think you are just mad that dropships will be harder to take down, and you don't want your easy points taken away. Well it's one thing if its a Derpship, its an entirely different matter when you are talking about 800k to 1 mill+ dropships that are used by actual pilots. Well if you have ever seen the wonderful wait screen the icons for light medium and heavy airships are already there. Thinking that dropships are the be all end all off the air game is foolish based simply on that screen alone since it shows there clearly will be 3 categories of air support. I am very familiar with the assault forge gun and it is not my favorite weapon of the forge gun weapons to use especially for drop ships. It does not hold a charge which for me makes it a pain in the neck to aim properly with especially when attempting to gun down a drop ship that can change direction in many directions. Tanks are far better targets for the AFG since there movement is much more limited and are so much slower. For drop ships i prefer to use a forge gun that stores the charge and stacked damage mods to make every hit really count. After all i only have i think 16 rounds and i cant carry a nanohive like every other dam frame in the game. Swarms i would imagine would be far more problematic since they nearly never miss and the user can carry a nanohive if they wanted to. Also no i am not worried about easy points at all. I am sure whatever is done to a dropship or the FG i will find a way to overcome it and drop ship pilots will forever cry because essentially you're using a huey as a blackhawk and its just never going to work out well. |
Thurak1
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
308
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 03:09:00 -
[38] - Quote
Arc-08 wrote:okay seriously when was a dropship ever classified as a LIGHT FRAME?!! i've looked around now, and i have never seen anything that has classified dropships as light frame. http://dust514.com/universe/vehicles/CCP EVEN STATES UNDER THE DESCRIPTION OF THE DROPSHIP that it is meant to give temporary suppresive fire/cover fire. Which it is not capable of doing, it is capable of going in and keep moving while everybody jumps out and hopes they land on target. Very rarely can you go in and actually land people, or get close to very accurately drop sombody off in a hotzone. WHEN HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A DROPSHIP TEMPORARILY BLOCK OFF AN AREA WHILE SUPPORTING IT'S TROOPS!!! point and case it is NOT a LIGHT FRAME ARIEL vehicle. That page does not show what type of airframe the drop ship is at all it just says dropship there are going to end up being 3 category of air support light medium and heavy. I can guarantee drop ships are not heavy. Also drop ships can provide temporary cover assuming anti vehicle weapons are not present. Much in a siimilar way the old hueys could drop in and out of hot landing zones to medivac troops unless someone with a bazooka or rpg was around then they were screwed. |
Meeko Fent
DUST University Ivy League
1197
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 03:40:00 -
[39] - Quote
CLONE117 wrote:should i also mention that damage mods r the problem when it comes to the forge guns? No. Look at the Stats. From what I remember, the Assault deals one hundred more damage then the standard
maybe u r being shot down by a breach forge?. Killboard, Duh.
as thats the only variant that can ohk mostly any vehicle.. You obviously are either lying, or haven't flown a DS in a LONG LONG time
the reg fg and assault forge gun r better vs infantry than vehicles. Yes... And?
if u r complaining about losing derpships to a fg run an armor repper on your ship.. No, he's complaining about losing a Derpshit to both being able to not run away, and to having it shoot so damn quickly
it will save it from falling to the ground if u r fast enough. Ah huh.....
Again, Damage Mods stack up the issue, but the main issue is always mainly the gun. |
Meeko Fent
DUST University Ivy League
1197
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 03:42:00 -
[40] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:FG is fine as it is. Derpships however are just simply deathtraps. The combination of nerfed PG and that they where ignored when every other vehicles received a HP buff was just too much for them. In truth, this is the main issue with ALL the Vehicles.
Being Unable to fit high enough quality tanking mods to not get insta/near-insta-popped. |
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TheD1CK
Dead Man's Game
36
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 09:17:00 -
[41] - Quote
Some of you will disagree with me on this but lets face facts.... The FG is undeniably OP, I use a plasma Cannon i know what OP is but the FG has a clip loaded with rounds more powerful than the PLC can shoot further and faster while dealing more damage.
If an Infantry weapon can exceed the damage of a vehicle turret there is something wrong and I am pretty sure the FG deals more dmg than a large railgun.... should a duvolle equal a scatterblaster???
anyway on to my solution ... The FG fires what appears to be a charge of electricity , not a highly volatile charge of plasma or a grenade via the mass driver so IMO we need to remove splash dmg off the FG, its already to powerful AI/AV so I dont think it deserves to be rewarded for shots that miss....
love or hate it , you know I'm making sense here |
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
1194
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 10:07:00 -
[42] - Quote
CLONE117 wrote:should i also mention that damage mods r the problem when it comes to the forge guns?
maybe u r being shot down by a breach forge?.
as thats the only variant that can ohk mostly any vehicle..
the reg fg and assault forge gun r better vs infantry than vehicles.
if u r complaining about losing derpships to a fg run an armor repper on your ship..
it will save it from falling to the ground if u r fast enough.
1: They are worse.
2: They do kill infantry too easy
3: Won't save it. Tried, it just doesn't. I've had one running while hitting 0, so that's bullshit. |
Arc-08
Horizons' Edge Orion Empire
114
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:30:00 -
[43] - Quote
yeah, it doesn't matter what happens here, if you get hit two times in a row by a forge gun your dead no matter what. well i don't know about shield, but for sure it is this way with armor dropships. once you reach 100 your entirely screwed no its ands or buts about it.
and thurak, how is a dropship both light, medium and heavy at the same time?! also i don't think that wait screen means anything, because it has been there sooo long and has never changed, and assault dropships are much different than regular dropships because they are meant to be offensive, not a troop transport, it is obvious because they only have 4 seats. So no, the assault dropship is not meant to be a troop transport like a logi dropship, that is like an assault that can't attack, but it can be a good logi.
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1482
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 11:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
I stand by adding dispersion to forge guns. (see my post @ first page) This makes forge guns no less weaker to HAVs because they're massive targets, but dropships high in the sky and LAVs zooming along will be much harder to hit.
And also make dispersion a factor that changes depending on the variant.
Breach FG - Less dispersion (since penalties are pretty bad already) Assault FG - More dispersion, but higher fire rate (even more than currently)
Haven't heard any reasonable arguments AGAINST FG dispersion yet, so I assume it's the perfect solution. Prove me wrong.
|
ILLUSIONxox
RAINING HEAVY'S
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 04:44:00 -
[45] - Quote
Broonfondle Majikthies wrote:CLONE117 wrote:should i also mention that damage mods r the problem when it comes to the forge guns?
maybe u r being shot down by a breach forge?.
as thats the only variant that can ohk mostly any vehicle..
the reg fg and assault forge gun r better vs infantry than vehicles.
if u r complaining about losing derpships to a fg run an armor repper on your ship..
it will save it from falling to the ground if u r fast enough.
Actually as a DS pilot I noticed with this recent update that recovering from 0 armour is almost impossible without 2 reppers. Hell my Prometheus went down recently despite the fact it nearly had full health back with plenty of altitude to recover. Plus bailing out is still a lottery whether you live or instantly die in mid air from exiting directly under the ship while its falling.
That **** needs to be fixed right the **** now along with the over powered Assault rifles , When you jump out the drop ship as the pilot it kills you thats a bug and a bad one it killed me so many times its so damn bad to fly those things . |
Thurak1
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
309
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 06:08:00 -
[46] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:I stand by adding dispersion to forge guns. (see my post @ first page) This makes forge guns no less weaker to HAVs because they're massive targets, but dropships high in the sky and LAVs zooming along will be much harder to hit.
And also make dispersion a factor that changes depending on the variant.
Breach FG - Less dispersion (since penalties are pretty bad already) Assault FG - More dispersion, but higher fire rate (even more than currently)
Haven't heard any reasonable arguments AGAINST FG dispersion yet, so I assume it's the perfect solution. Prove me wrong.
Not really needed. the DS is not a heavy aircraft and the AFG doesn't hold a charge so people using one have to continually aim and re-adjust to hit a ds because as soon as its charged its shooting. adding dispersion would be too much the AFG is a proto forge gun so yes it still will pack a punch when it hits. The AFG does similar damage to a proto swarm and has similar charge time as the swarms at its level have lock time. Course swarms have very little chance of missing especially if you dont see the person shooting them. At least with the AFG the weilder has to be a slow moving heavy and is likely to be out in the open the entire time they are shooting at you. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens League of Infamy
356
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:46:00 -
[47] - Quote
I'm a dedicated forge gunner and while I agree that the Assault FG needs to have it's damage a bit lower, I don't agree that it shouldn't destroy vehicles. That would be like me saying that heavies should get 80%+ damage resistance to all non-av weapons. It's not going to happen.
AV means anti-vehicle, not annoy-vehicle. I mean really, DS pilots only need to worry about HAV turrets, Installation Turrets, SWARMS, Forge and maybe small missile turrets on other DSs. And if a DS pilot is stressing over AV grenades, then he/she is doing something seriously wrong.
But with the proliferation of the forum warrior tears against anything that's effective against their playstyle, and CCP's apparent willingness to somewhat give in, I don't doubt that sometime, in the near future of heavy forge gunners, we'll end up immobile firing 1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8, 1 meter dispersion per 10 meter range with no targeting reticle. And you whiners will still cry that we're op because we'll have to fit for max tank at around 1400 hp. |
TechMechMeds
Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc.
778
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:52:00 -
[48] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I'm a dedicated forge gunner and while I agree that the Assault FG needs to have it's damage a bit lower, I don't agree that it shouldn't destroy vehicles. That would be like me saying that heavies should get 80%+ damage resistance to all non-av weapons. It's not going to happen.
AV means anti-vehicle, not annoy-vehicle. I mean really, DS pilots only need to worry about HAV turrets, Installation Turrets, SWARMS, Forge and maybe small missile turrets on other DSs. And if a DS pilot is stressing over AV grenades, then he/she is doing something seriously wrong.
But with the proliferation of the forum warrior tears against anything that's effective against their playstyle, and CCP's apparent willingness to somewhat give in, I don't doubt that sometime, in the near future of heavy forge gunners, we'll end up immobile firing 1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8, 1 meter dispersion per 10 meter range with no targeting reticle. And you whiners will still cry that we're op because we'll have to fit for max tank at around 1400 hp.
Who said it shouldn't destroy vehicles? |
jerrmy12 kahoalii
REAPERS REPUBLIC
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:57:00 -
[49] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:FG is fine as it is. Derpships however are just simply deathtraps. The combination of nerfed PG and that they where ignored when every other vehicles received a HP buff was just too much for them. ADS should get 15% base resistance or higher |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens League of Infamy
356
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
TheD1CK wrote:Some of you will disagree with me on this but lets face facts.... The FG is undeniably OP, I use a plasma Cannon i know what OP is but the FG has a clip loaded with rounds more powerful than the PLC can shoot further and faster while dealing more damage.
If an Infantry weapon can exceed the damage of a vehicle turret there is something wrong and I am pretty sure the FG deals more dmg than a large railgun.... should a duvolle equal a scatterblaster???
anyway on to my solution ... The FG fires what appears to be a charge of electricity , not a highly volatile charge of plasma or a grenade via the mass driver so IMO we need to remove splash dmg off the FG, its already to powerful AI/AV so I dont think it deserves to be rewarded for shots that miss....
love or hate it , you know I'm making sense here
Learn your weapons. The forge gun is a heavy man portable rail cannon. Using high voltage magnetic induction. It fires a heavy ferrous slug at extremely high rates of speed. The description says 8000+ meters per second but in game performance is more like 600 meters per second. It's designed to use extreme kinetic force to destroy it's intended target.
So the forge gun is a weak super-tech version of this. RL Railgun |
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Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens League of Infamy
356
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 09:05:00 -
[51] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I'm a dedicated forge gunner and while I agree that the Assault FG needs to have it's damage a bit lower, I don't agree that it shouldn't destroy vehicles. That would be like me saying that heavies should get 80%+ damage resistance to all non-av weapons. It's not going to happen.
AV means anti-vehicle, not annoy-vehicle. I mean really, DS pilots only need to worry about HAV turrets, Installation Turrets, SWARMS, Forge and maybe small missile turrets on other DSs. And if a DS pilot is stressing over AV grenades, then he/she is doing something seriously wrong.
But with the proliferation of the forum warrior tears against anything that's effective against their playstyle, and CCP's apparent willingness to somewhat give in, I don't doubt that sometime, in the near future of heavy forge gunners, we'll end up immobile firing 1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8, 1 meter dispersion per 10 meter range with no targeting reticle. And you whiners will still cry that we're op because we'll have to fit for max tank at around 1400 hp. Who said it shouldn't destroy vehicles?
Vyzion Eyri wrote:and the whole point of AV in a game where vehicles are so expensive is to repel, not destroy. This system encourages that greatly.
Once AV is established with that role, then we can introduce WP for repelling vehicles; for example, +5WP simply for landing a swarm/AV nade/forge gun shot on a vehicle.
This guy. You can read his whole post on the first page. |
Thurak1
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
311
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 10:02:00 -
[52] - Quote
Arc-08 wrote:yeah, it doesn't matter what happens here, if you get hit two times in a row by a forge gun your dead no matter what. well i don't know about shield, but for sure it is this way with armor dropships. once you reach 100 your entirely screwed no its ands or buts about it.
and thurak, how is a dropship both light, medium and heavy at the same time?! also i don't think that wait screen means anything, because it has been there sooo long and has never changed, and assault dropships are much different than regular dropships because they are meant to be offensive, not a troop transport, it is obvious because they only have 4 seats. So no, the assault dropship is not meant to be a troop transport like a logi dropship, that is like an assault that can't attack, but it can be a good logi.
Not sure where i said that dropships are light med and heavy. I believe i said that there are going to be light medium and heavy airframes. The fact ccp has not yet delivered all 3 airframes is not something i can do anything about breathe down their neck on that one. being short 2 seats does not change my mind that dropships in general are supposed to be troop transports. It simply means there is 1 troop transport that sacrificed a bit of room so it could have a crappy gun. I have had one of these silly things try taking out my very crappy soma militia tank all i had to do was get on a hill so i could aim high enough and a couple rail gun rounds later and the derpship was on fire. Mind you i have 0 skills with a tank so everything on my tank is militia. I might have had an easier time simply jumping out of the tank and blasting him with my forge gun since i wouldnt have to angle myself on a hill but i didnt think about that at the time. |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1490
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:35:00 -
[53] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I'm a dedicated forge gunner and while I agree that the Assault FG needs to have it's damage a bit lower, I don't agree that it shouldn't destroy vehicles. That would be like me saying that heavies should get 80%+ damage resistance to all non-av weapons. It's not going to happen.
AV means anti-vehicle, not annoy-vehicle. I mean really, DS pilots only need to worry about HAV turrets, Installation Turrets, SWARMS, Forge and maybe small missile turrets on other DSs. And if a DS pilot is stressing over AV grenades, then he/she is doing something seriously wrong.
But with the proliferation of the forum warrior tears against anything that's effective against their playstyle, and CCP's apparent willingness to somewhat give in, I don't doubt that sometime, in the near future of heavy forge gunners, we'll end up immobile firing 1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8, 1 meter dispersion per 10 meter range with no targeting reticle. And you whiners will still cry that we're op because we'll have to fit for max tank at around 1400 hp.
I never said it couldn't destroy vehicles. I never even mentioned a damage nerf; I requested dispersion. How'd you get "1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8"?
Furthermore, I said make the targetting reticle smaller and hence MORE accurate.
If a vehicle user is greedy and sits in a spot without moving, you should be able to make short work of it. IF a pilot is using his head, actively moving around the battlefield and planning every move, then 1 forge gun user should NOT be able to take down the vehicle simply because at long range, the ONLY defence against AV like plasma cannons and swarms, DO NOT work on forge guns because of the projectile range and almost instantaneous travel time.
Thurak1 wrote: Not really needed. the DS is not a heavy aircraft and the AFG doesn't hold a charge so people using one have to continually aim and re-adjust to hit a ds because as soon as its charged its shooting. adding dispersion would be too much the AFG is a proto forge gun so yes it still will pack a punch when it hits. The AFG does similar damage to a proto swarm and has similar charge time as the swarms at its level have lock time. Course swarms have very little chance of missing especially if you dont see the person shooting them. At least with the AFG the weilder has to be a slow moving heavy and is likely to be out in the open the entire time they are shooting at you.
Prototype Swarm Launcher: 330 x 6 = 1980 explosive damage Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1512 hybrid damage
So why is it that I've never seen a Wiyrkomi kill me in my dropship (50 mill worth of dropships lost so far), but I've always died to forge guns? Because whilst swarms have very little chance of missing, they can be avoided in fast, light vehicles with speed. In games where only swarms are hitting me I can come back after repairs and continue assaulting a point, because as I'm escaping swarms can't continually damage me during my retreat. But forge guns can. It takes roughly 3 Ishukone AFG hits to eliminate my dropship. 2.5 seconds is the base charge time, with FG operation V it's 1.9s roughly.
So in 6 seconds, those 3 shots are in the air. Given I don't realise the first one is charging, I have 4 seconds to react between the time it takes for the first hit to land and the third hit to land. I spend 1 second deciding which direction to take based on where the forge gun hits me, but the second shot is on its way before I realign myself. By the time I start moving the third finishes me off unless the forge gunner has horrendous accuracy.
I'm not saying remove how fast it fires, nor remove its insane damage. If you've read my previous posts I suggested INCREASING the fire rate, and my first post involves DECREASING size of the aiming reticle. Besides dispersion it's all buffs. I don't see why you guys are so afraid of dispersion. Our turrets (even HAVs) are effective inside 200m. Outside of that, the damage dealt is laughable even to infantry, unless it's a railgun/missile tank.
So why is it that forge guns are so effective beyond the effective range of our vehicles? That's what I'm irked about. And I'm saying that outside of 200m the dispersion of forge guns should mean at least half the shots are NOT centered, WHICH DOES NOT MEAN IT MISSES. It can still hit if the target takes up enough of the reticle!
So, besides completely exaggerating what I suggested, any other reasons why FGs should not have dispersion?
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CLONE117
Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore
414
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:32:00 -
[54] - Quote
didnt the fg get a range nerf at one point in time?
and surviving 3 direct hits from a proto assault forge gun? with a dropship?...
well it seems like your fine on the game currently with all that isk to use on dropships.
now from the many times ive used an adv assault fg.
or any forge gun i pretty much had to aim in front of a moving dropship.
its pretty much a direct fire weapon.
just like the large railgun installation. and i find that to be more effective than my adv assault fg.
because it has a much longer range and much better rendering distance.
but aside from that i feel the only thing the forge gun could handle a nerf for would be a nerf to the damage mods for it.
if we look at it this way the breach fg is the ohk gun of the class.
its the heavy hitter.
the regular fg is better suited for those long range/ more accurate shots.
now when we get to the assault fg.
i dont know why on the stats its damage is higher than a regular adv fg.
but i think ccp put it this way for a reason.
possibly because it cant hold its charge.
the assault variant some how manages to hit harder than the cheaper std fg.
now from my experience from the weapon.
it can be a vehicle killer.
but its better to go for the breach fg for av.
the assault is better for taking out infantry and scaring vehicles away from u.
the times ive attacked the occasional hav with it i used up all my shots while some1 with a proto swarm finished it off..
so the story short i fired all 4 of my adv assault fg shots.
and the guy with proto swarms finished the vehicles off.
while i reloaded my fg.
the several tanks i had helped kill were grouped up any ways and i was out in the open so if any of them would have turned their turrets around to shoot at me i would have died fast..
although i havnt gotten into proficiency with fg and was not using damage mods.
my suit was basically a mlt heavy suit.
assault fg. and a mlt armor repair module.
nothing else.
i had only put enough sp into fg to unlock the assault variant and its served my always changing playstyle well.
the mlt fg is good at those same things 2.
but hating on the single assault fg is not a good reason to nerf it.
im sure every1 here has their own great epic moments and horrible fails.
but if i can try to put this from the times ive gotten shot by a fg while flying a gorgon randomly around the battlefield.
its annoying. i know its annoying because its happened to me several times before.
but i normally get my revenge in the end by sneaking up on them and shooting them in the face.
but the many times ive survived a fg shot that normally would kill the dropship.
those are the moments i would activate an armor repper and save my own dropship.
i havnt been on to try out 1.5 yet so im not sure if any of this has changed yet.
so i think we could nerf damage mods to make that fg less annoying. but still deadly, it just wont be as deadly. so nothing major to complain about. i just dont think nerfing the fg directly would be a good idea . |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens League of Infamy
356
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:35:00 -
[55] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I'm a dedicated forge gunner and while I agree that the Assault FG needs to have it's damage a bit lower, I don't agree that it shouldn't destroy vehicles. That would be like me saying that heavies should get 80%+ damage resistance to all non-av weapons. It's not going to happen.
AV means anti-vehicle, not annoy-vehicle. I mean really, DS pilots only need to worry about HAV turrets, Installation Turrets, SWARMS, Forge and maybe small missile turrets on other DSs. And if a DS pilot is stressing over AV grenades, then he/she is doing something seriously wrong.
But with the proliferation of the forum warrior tears against anything that's effective against their playstyle, and CCP's apparent willingness to somewhat give in, I don't doubt that sometime, in the near future of heavy forge gunners, we'll end up immobile firing 1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8, 1 meter dispersion per 10 meter range with no targeting reticle. And you whiners will still cry that we're op because we'll have to fit for max tank at around 1400 hp. I never said it couldn't destroy vehicles. I never even mentioned a damage nerf; I requested dispersion. How'd you get "1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8"? Furthermore, I said make the targetting reticle smaller and hence MORE accurate. If a vehicle user is greedy and sits in a spot without moving, you should be able to make short work of it. IF a pilot is using his head, actively moving around the battlefield and planning every move, then 1 forge gun user should NOT be able to take down the vehicle simply because at long range, the ONLY defence against AV like plasma cannons and swarms, DO NOT work on forge guns because of the projectile range and almost instantaneous travel time.
No. You said AV shouldn't destroy vehicles. I said it could use a little bit of a damage nerf, not much, just a touch.
As for the last paragraph you need to learn to comprehend satirical speculative writing. I was just saying that many of the vehicle pilot forum warriors apparently won't be happy until the heavy forge gunner is reduced to complete ineffectiveness then the infantry forum warriors will probably complain that the immobilized heavy is still OP due to their high HP. |
TechMechMeds
Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc.
779
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Vyzion Eyri wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I'm a dedicated forge gunner and while I agree that the Assault FG needs to have it's damage a bit lower, I don't agree that it shouldn't destroy vehicles. That would be like me saying that heavies should get 80%+ damage resistance to all non-av weapons. It's not going to happen.
AV means anti-vehicle, not annoy-vehicle. I mean really, DS pilots only need to worry about HAV turrets, Installation Turrets, SWARMS, Forge and maybe small missile turrets on other DSs. And if a DS pilot is stressing over AV grenades, then he/she is doing something seriously wrong.
But with the proliferation of the forum warrior tears against anything that's effective against their playstyle, and CCP's apparent willingness to somewhat give in, I don't doubt that sometime, in the near future of heavy forge gunners, we'll end up immobile firing 1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8, 1 meter dispersion per 10 meter range with no targeting reticle. And you whiners will still cry that we're op because we'll have to fit for max tank at around 1400 hp. I never said it couldn't destroy vehicles. I never even mentioned a damage nerf; I requested dispersion. How'd you get "1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8"? Furthermore, I said make the targetting reticle smaller and hence MORE accurate. If a vehicle user is greedy and sits in a spot without moving, you should be able to make short work of it. IF a pilot is using his head, actively moving around the battlefield and planning every move, then 1 forge gun user should NOT be able to take down the vehicle simply because at long range, the ONLY defence against AV like plasma cannons and swarms, DO NOT work on forge guns because of the projectile range and almost instantaneous travel time. No. You said AV shouldn't destroy vehicles. I said it could use a little bit of a damage nerf, not much, just a touch. As for the last paragraph you need to learn to comprehend satirical speculative writing. I was just saying that many of the vehicle pilot forum warriors apparently won't be happy until the heavy forge gunner is reduced to complete ineffectiveness then the infantry forum warriors will probably complain that the immobilized heavy is still OP due to their high HP.
People don't really care about speculation. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens League of Infamy
356
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:45:00 -
[57] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Vyzion Eyri wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I'm a dedicated forge gunner and while I agree that the Assault FG needs to have it's damage a bit lower, I don't agree that it shouldn't destroy vehicles. That would be like me saying that heavies should get 80%+ damage resistance to all non-av weapons. It's not going to happen.
AV means anti-vehicle, not annoy-vehicle. I mean really, DS pilots only need to worry about HAV turrets, Installation Turrets, SWARMS, Forge and maybe small missile turrets on other DSs. And if a DS pilot is stressing over AV grenades, then he/she is doing something seriously wrong.
But with the proliferation of the forum warrior tears against anything that's effective against their playstyle, and CCP's apparent willingness to somewhat give in, I don't doubt that sometime, in the near future of heavy forge gunners, we'll end up immobile firing 1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8, 1 meter dispersion per 10 meter range with no targeting reticle. And you whiners will still cry that we're op because we'll have to fit for max tank at around 1400 hp. I never said it couldn't destroy vehicles. I never even mentioned a damage nerf; I requested dispersion. How'd you get "1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8"? Furthermore, I said make the targetting reticle smaller and hence MORE accurate. If a vehicle user is greedy and sits in a spot without moving, you should be able to make short work of it. IF a pilot is using his head, actively moving around the battlefield and planning every move, then 1 forge gun user should NOT be able to take down the vehicle simply because at long range, the ONLY defence against AV like plasma cannons and swarms, DO NOT work on forge guns because of the projectile range and almost instantaneous travel time. No. You said AV shouldn't destroy vehicles. I said it could use a little bit of a damage nerf, not much, just a touch. As for the last paragraph you need to learn to comprehend satirical speculative writing. I was just saying that many of the vehicle pilot forum warriors apparently won't be happy until the heavy forge gunner is reduced to complete ineffectiveness then the infantry forum warriors will probably complain that the immobilized heavy is still OP due to their high HP. People don't really care about speculation.
Actually they do, but for many, it's only when they're doing it. Otherwise they try to take it as a serious statement. |
Meeko Fent
DUST University Ivy League
1217
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:09:00 -
[58] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:Range should be a forge gun's weakness. Currently it's quite difficult to aim with the box reticle at small targets.
What I suggest is not to limit the absolute range of forge gun projectiles, but add dispersion to the shots. Essentially, like the HMG, less shots are likely to hit the further your target is.
To accompany this change, the box reticle should be made 50% smaller! (Which is an accuracy buff following adding dispersion) and all shots have a chance of falling somewhere within that space. So if a HAV fills your whole reticle, you are guaranteed a hit. But a dropship at the flight ceiling will be much more difficult if not impossible to hit. However, we dropships aren't going to stay up there forever, and the whole point of AV in a game where vehicles are so expensive is to repel, not destroy. This system encourages that greatly.
As a pilot of dropships I fear forge guns currently. Swarms and their refire rate are nothing unless I stay close; In that regard they're serving their purpose as repellents, not destroyers.
Once AV is established with that role, then we can introduce WP for repelling vehicles; for example, +5WP simply for landing a swarm/AV nade/forge gun shot on a vehicle. Yeah, the WP for AV used to be like 20 per hit.
Seems reasonable. |
Thurak1
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
312
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:59:00 -
[59] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:I'm a dedicated forge gunner and while I agree that the Assault FG needs to have it's damage a bit lower, I don't agree that it shouldn't destroy vehicles. That would be like me saying that heavies should get 80%+ damage resistance to all non-av weapons. It's not going to happen.
AV means anti-vehicle, not annoy-vehicle. I mean really, DS pilots only need to worry about HAV turrets, Installation Turrets, SWARMS, Forge and maybe small missile turrets on other DSs. And if a DS pilot is stressing over AV grenades, then he/she is doing something seriously wrong.
But with the proliferation of the forum warrior tears against anything that's effective against their playstyle, and CCP's apparent willingness to somewhat give in, I don't doubt that sometime, in the near future of heavy forge gunners, we'll end up immobile firing 1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8, 1 meter dispersion per 10 meter range with no targeting reticle. And you whiners will still cry that we're op because we'll have to fit for max tank at around 1400 hp. I never said it couldn't destroy vehicles. I never even mentioned a damage nerf; I requested dispersion. How'd you get "1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8"? Furthermore, I said make the targetting reticle smaller and hence MORE accurate. If a vehicle user is greedy and sits in a spot without moving, you should be able to make short work of it. IF a pilot is using his head, actively moving around the battlefield and planning every move, then 1 forge gun user should NOT be able to take down the vehicle simply because at long range, the ONLY defence against AV like plasma cannons and swarms, DO NOT work on forge guns because of the projectile range and almost instantaneous travel time. Thurak1 wrote: Not really needed. the DS is not a heavy aircraft and the AFG doesn't hold a charge so people using one have to continually aim and re-adjust to hit a ds because as soon as its charged its shooting. adding dispersion would be too much the AFG is a proto forge gun so yes it still will pack a punch when it hits. The AFG does similar damage to a proto swarm and has similar charge time as the swarms at its level have lock time. Course swarms have very little chance of missing especially if you dont see the person shooting them. At least with the AFG the weilder has to be a slow moving heavy and is likely to be out in the open the entire time they are shooting at you.
Prototype Swarm Launcher: 330 x 6 = 1980 explosive damage Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1512 hybrid damage So why is it that I've never seen a Wiyrkomi kill me in my dropship (50 mill worth of dropships lost so far), but I've always died to forge guns? Because whilst swarms have very little chance of missing, they can be avoided in fast, light vehicles with speed. In games where only swarms are hitting me I can come back after repairs and continue assaulting a point, because as I'm escaping swarms can't continually damage me during my retreat. But forge guns can. It takes roughly 3 Ishukone AFG hits to eliminate my dropship. 2.5 seconds is the base charge time, with FG operation V it's 1.9s roughly. So in 6 seconds, those 3 shots are in the air. Given I don't realise the first one is charging, I have 4 seconds to react between the time it takes for the first hit to land and the third hit to land. I spend 1 second deciding which direction to take based on where the forge gun hits me, but the second shot is on its way before I realign myself. By the time I start moving the third finishes me off unless the forge gunner has horrendous accuracy. I'm not saying remove how fast it fires, nor remove its insane damage. If you've read my previous posts I suggested INCREASING the fire rate, and my first post involves DECREASING size of the aiming reticle. Besides dispersion it's all buffs. I don't see why you guys are so afraid of dispersion. Our turrets (even HAVs) are effective inside 200m. Outside of that, the damage dealt is laughable even to infantry, unless it's a railgun/missile tank. So why is it that forge guns are so effective beyond the effective range of our vehicles? That's what I'm irked about. And I'm saying that outside of 200m the dispersion of forge guns should mean at least half the shots are NOT centered, WHICH DOES NOT MEAN IT MISSES. It can still hit if the target takes up enough of the reticle! So, besides completely exaggerating what I suggested, any other reasons why FGs should not have dispersion?
dispersion = miss rate the AFG does not need that it has already been crippled with a slow moving infantryman and a charge that cant be stored. If you cant move your dropship from a fatty in nearly 6 seconds your doing it wrong. On most maps you dont even have to think you just need to go up and you can get out of a FG range. Think of forge guns as snipers for vehicles. We are going to use every advantage terrain wise to take you out and so will a swarm user. Only differance is with a swarm user you MIGHT see the swarms before they hit you but they do very similar damage as you so kindly did the math for us. So why is the AFG so much better? It doesnt track automatically like the swarms will and sometimes those will even follow around buildings and such. If proto swarms were more common you would probably be complaining about them instead but the AFG is a nice general purpose FG since the HMG is so situation many heavys use it. |
the shadow dragon
Axis of Chaos
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 13:34:00 -
[60] - Quote
no don't nerf forge gun just add heat build up on all forge guns . |
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