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Buff derpships or nerf assault forge gun.

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Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 298	Posted - 2013.10.14 21:29:00 - [1] - Quote It isnt proper to nerf a fg based on its effectiveness vs a dropship. After all dropships are not the only thing that a fg can shoot and should be effective against. If a FG was brought inline vs a drop ship then FG's would be crap vs tanks. It would be just as flawed as nerfing a AR because it takes out scout suits too fast. Dropships are very much on the low end of the armor scale being considered light aircraft and not even medium (which is not yet in the game). Dropships are more in line with lav hps. What all the DS pilots really should be doing is waiting for medium and heavy aircraft. Being that the DS is a light aircraft i think expecting one to survive more than 2 shots from a FG even fully speced out is asking a lot since it is a light aircraft. Look at tanks for example. A well fitted tank can survive 5 or more FG shots (well at least assault FG) so nerfing the FG based on a light aircrafts hp's is improper. Buffing a DS i would even say is improper since they are light airframes. What you all really should be bugging ccp for is medium and heavy airframes.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 308	Posted - 2013.10.15 21:37:00 - [2] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: CELESTA AUNGM wrote: Thurak1 wrote: It isnt proper to nerf a fg based on its effectiveness vs a dropship. After all dropships are not the only thing that a fg can shoot and should be effective against. If a FG was brought inline vs a drop ship then FG's would be crap vs tanks. It would be just as flawed as nerfing a AR because it takes out scout suits too fast. Dropships are very much on the low end of the armor scale being considered light aircraft and not even medium (which is not yet in the game). Dropships are more in line with lav hps. What all the DS pilots really should be doing is waiting for medium and heavy aircraft. What you all really should be bugging ccp for is medium and heavy airframes. I admire you're post, Thurak. (It's agreeing with mine, but LOL even if it wasn't in line with mine, I'd still admire it.) Somewhere between our complaints and CCP's slow approa a ADS hull costs 400k isk, so it should be strong Price is meaningless. I am sure if i wanted to i could make a dropsuit that cost 400kisk yet a 160isk AR could still take me out in 4 seconds.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 308	Posted - 2013.10.15 21:41:00 - [3] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: CELESTA AUNGM wrote: Thurak1 wrote: It isnt proper to nerf a fg based on its effectiveness vs a dropship. After all dropships are not the only thing that a fg can shoot and should be effective against. If a FG was brought inline vs a drop ship then FG's would be crap vs tanks. It would be just as flawed as nerfing a AR because it takes out scout suits too fast. Dropships are very much on the low end of the armor scale being considered light aircraft and not even medium (which is not yet in the game). Dropships are more in line with lav hps. What all the DS pilots really should be doing is waiting for medium and heavy aircraft. What you all really should be bugging ccp for is medium and heavy airframes. I admire you're post, Thurak. (It's agreeing with mine, but LOL even if it wasn't in line with mine, I'd still admire it.) Somewhere between our complaints and CCP's slow approaching return to "fundamentals" with vehicles, the Dropship is slowly (arguably "finally") being DEFINED. It's an implied Transporter, for inserting or extracting mercs (meaning IN, can't stick around too long, then OUT)... It's a LIGHT vehicle by classification, and pilots need to keep in perspective that "light" means it's never meant to take punishment from weaponry built to punch heavier targets than us... And since the classification isn't likely to change, maybe we ought to be accepting it's defensive weaknesses as "sensible for its class", not request our enemy to be reduced just because of our adored DS, and close our book on the subject. Well-centered perspective, Thurak. Thanks No because regardless of anyone's opinion the assault fg is a high ROF massive damage weapon rather than high ROF low damage weapon really doesn't take much practice to start ROFL stomping with it. When compared to other FG's it does less damage. It also still has a 1.5 second charge up time which if your interested in doing the math on would have to be factored in.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 308	Posted - 2013.10.16 03:04:00 - [4] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: Thurak1 wrote: It isnt proper to nerf a fg based on its effectiveness vs a dropship. After all dropships are not the only thing that a fg can shoot and should be effective against. If a FG was brought inline vs a drop ship then FG's would be crap vs tanks. It would be just as flawed as nerfing a AR because it takes out scout suits too fast. Dropships are very much on the low end of the armor scale being considered light aircraft and not even medium (which is not yet in the game). Dropships are more in line with lav hps. What all the DS pilots really should be doing is waiting for medium and heavy aircraft. Being that the DS is a light aircraft i think expecting one to survive more than 2 shots from a FG even fully speced out is asking a lot since it is a light aircraft. Look at tanks for example. A well fitted tank can survive 5 or more FG shots (well at least assault FG) so nerfing the FG based on a light aircrafts hp's is improper. Buffing a DS i would even say is improper since they are light airframes. What you all really should be bugging ccp for is medium and heavy airframes. No, i'm sorry i don't think you are right. Assault FG is different from regular or breach forge gun, as i have been made to realize, i belive the assault varient is specialized for dropships and infantry since they can move out of your way faster, thus assault varient needs to be brought in line to what it's specialty is, fast moving targets. And where the heck did you get the idea for heavy and medium air frames!!!! THERE IS NO CONFRIMED DATE ON THAT, we don't even know that heavy airframes exist, thats an EVE pilot for goodness sakes, plus if you are refering to Jets as medium frame, i don't think you know what you are talking about, a jet is lighter than a dropship, if anything Dropships are the MEDIUM frame and jets will be LIGHT frame. So i think you are just mad that dropships will be harder to take down, and you don't want your easy points taken away. Well it's one thing if its a Derpship, its an entirely different matter when you are talking about 800k to 1 mill+ dropships that are used by actual pilots. Well if you have ever seen the wonderful wait screen the icons for light medium and heavy airships are already there. Thinking that dropships are the be all end all off the air game is foolish based simply on that screen alone since it shows there clearly will be 3 categories of air support. I am very familiar with the assault forge gun and it is not my favorite weapon of the forge gun weapons to use especially for drop ships. It does not hold a charge which for me makes it a pain in the neck to aim properly with especially when attempting to gun down a drop ship that can change direction in many directions. Tanks are far better targets for the AFG since there movement is much more limited and are so much slower. For drop ships i prefer to use a forge gun that stores the charge and stacked damage mods to make every hit really count. After all i only have i think 16 rounds and i cant carry a nanohive like every other dam frame in the game. Swarms i would imagine would be far more problematic since they nearly never miss and the user can carry a nanohive if they wanted to. Also no i am not worried about easy points at all. I am sure whatever is done to a dropship or the FG i will find a way to overcome it and drop ship pilots will forever cry because essentially you're using a huey as a blackhawk and its just never going to work out well.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 308	Posted - 2013.10.16 03:09:00 - [5] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: okay seriously when was a dropship ever classified as a LIGHT FRAME?!! i've looked around now, and i have never seen anything that has classified dropships as light frame. http://dust514.com/universe/vehicles/ CCP EVEN STATES UNDER THE DESCRIPTION OF THE DROPSHIP that it is meant to give temporary suppresive fire/cover fire. Which it is not capable of doing, it is capable of going in and keep moving while everybody jumps out and hopes they land on target. Very rarely can you go in and actually land people, or get close to very accurately drop sombody off in a hotzone. WHEN HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A DROPSHIP TEMPORARILY BLOCK OFF AN AREA WHILE SUPPORTING IT'S TROOPS!!! point and case it is NOT a LIGHT FRAME ARIEL vehicle. That page does not show what type of airframe the drop ship is at all it just says dropship there are going to end up being 3 category of air support light medium and heavy. I can guarantee drop ships are not heavy. Also drop ships can provide temporary cover assuming anti vehicle weapons are not present. Much in a siimilar way the old hueys could drop in and out of hot landing zones to medivac troops unless someone with a bazooka or rpg was around then they were screwed.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 309	Posted - 2013.10.17 06:08:00 - [6] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: I stand by adding dispersion to forge guns. (see my post @ first page) This makes forge guns no less weaker to HAVs because they're massive targets, but dropships high in the sky and LAVs zooming along will be much harder to hit. And also make dispersion a factor that changes depending on the variant. Breach FG - Less dispersion (since penalties are pretty bad already) Assault FG - More dispersion, but higher fire rate (even more than currently) Haven't heard any reasonable arguments AGAINST FG dispersion yet, so I assume it's the perfect solution. Prove me wrong. Not really needed. the DS is not a heavy aircraft and the AFG doesn't hold a charge so people using one have to continually aim and re-adjust to hit a ds because as soon as its charged its shooting. adding dispersion would be too much the AFG is a proto forge gun so yes it still will pack a punch when it hits. The AFG does similar damage to a proto swarm and has similar charge time as the swarms at its level have lock time. Course swarms have very little chance of missing especially if you dont see the person shooting them. At least with the AFG the weilder has to be a slow moving heavy and is likely to be out in the open the entire time they are shooting at you.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 311	Posted - 2013.10.17 10:02:00 - [7] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: yeah, it doesn't matter what happens here, if you get hit two times in a row by a forge gun your dead no matter what. well i don't know about shield, but for sure it is this way with armor dropships. once you reach 100 your entirely screwed no its ands or buts about it. and thurak, how is a dropship both light, medium and heavy at the same time?! also i don't think that wait screen means anything, because it has been there sooo long and has never changed, and assault dropships are much different than regular dropships because they are meant to be offensive, not a troop transport, it is obvious because they only have 4 seats. So no, the assault dropship is not meant to be a troop transport like a logi dropship, that is like an assault that can't attack, but it can be a good logi. Not sure where i said that dropships are light med and heavy. I believe i said that there are going to be light medium and heavy airframes. The fact ccp has not yet delivered all 3 airframes is not something i can do anything about breathe down their neck on that one. being short 2 seats does not change my mind that dropships in general are supposed to be troop transports. It simply means there is 1 troop transport that sacrificed a bit of room so it could have a crappy gun. I have had one of these silly things try taking out my very crappy soma militia tank all i had to do was get on a hill so i could aim high enough and a couple rail gun rounds later and the derpship was on fire. Mind you i have 0 skills with a tank so everything on my tank is militia. I might have had an easier time simply jumping out of the tank and blasting him with my forge gun since i wouldnt have to angle myself on a hill but i didnt think about that at the time.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 312	Posted - 2013.10.17 22:59:00 - [8] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: I'm a dedicated forge gunner and while I agree that the Assault FG needs to have it's damage a bit lower, I don't agree that it shouldn't destroy vehicles. That would be like me saying that heavies should get 80%+ damage resistance to all non-av weapons. It's not going to happen. AV means anti-vehicle, not annoy-vehicle. I mean really, DS pilots only need to worry about HAV turrets, Installation Turrets, SWARMS, Forge and maybe small missile turrets on other DSs. And if a DS pilot is stressing over AV grenades, then he/she is doing something seriously wrong. But with the proliferation of the forum warrior tears against anything that's effective against their playstyle, and CCP's apparent willingness to somewhat give in, I don't doubt that sometime, in the near future of heavy forge gunners, we'll end up immobile firing 1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8, 1 meter dispersion per 10 meter range with no targeting reticle. And you whiners will still cry that we're op because we'll have to fit for max tank at around 1400 hp. I never said it couldn't destroy vehicles. I never even mentioned a damage nerf; I requested dispersion. How'd you get "1 shot every 8 seconds for a maximum of 625 damage per shot, no splash, with a magazine size of 2 and max ammo of 8"? Furthermore, I said make the targetting reticle smaller and hence MORE accurate. If a vehicle user is greedy and sits in a spot without moving, you should be able to make short work of it. IF a pilot is using his head, actively moving around the battlefield and planning every move, then 1 forge gun user should NOT be able to take down the vehicle simply because at long range, the ONLY defence against AV like plasma cannons and swarms, DO NOT work on forge guns because of the projectile range and almost instantaneous travel time. Thurak1 wrote: Not really needed. the DS is not a heavy aircraft and the AFG doesn't hold a charge so people using one have to continually aim and re-adjust to hit a ds because as soon as its charged its shooting. adding dispersion would be too much the AFG is a proto forge gun so yes it still will pack a punch when it hits. The AFG does similar damage to a proto swarm and has similar charge time as the swarms at its level have lock time. Course swarms have very little chance of missing especially if you dont see the person shooting them. At least with the AFG the weilder has to be a slow moving heavy and is likely to be out in the open the entire time they are shooting at you. Prototype Swarm Launcher: 330 x 6 = 1980 explosive damage Ishukone Assault Forge Gun: 1512 hybrid damage So why is it that I've never seen a Wiyrkomi kill me in my dropship (50 mill worth of dropships lost so far), but I've always died to forge guns? Because whilst swarms have very little chance of missing, they can be avoided in fast, light vehicles with speed. In games where only swarms are hitting me I can come back after repairs and continue assaulting a point, because as I'm escaping swarms can't continually damage me during my retreat. But forge guns can. It takes roughly 3 Ishukone AFG hits to eliminate my dropship. 2.5 seconds is the base charge time, with FG operation V it's 1.9s roughly. So in 6 seconds, those 3 shots are in the air. Given I don't realise the first one is charging, I have 4 seconds to react between the time it takes for the first hit to land and the third hit to land. I spend 1 second deciding which direction to take based on where the forge gun hits me, but the second shot is on its way before I realign myself. By the time I start moving the third finishes me off unless the forge gunner has horrendous accuracy. I'm not saying remove how fast it fires, nor remove its insane damage. If you've read my previous posts I suggested INCREASING the fire rate, and my first post involves DECREASING size of the aiming reticle. Besides dispersion it's all buffs. I don't see why you guys are so afraid of dispersion. Our turrets (even HAVs) are effective inside 200m. Outside of that, the damage dealt is laughable even to infantry, unless it's a railgun/missile tank. So why is it that forge guns are so effective beyond the effective range of our vehicles? That's what I'm irked about. And I'm saying that outside of 200m the dispersion of forge guns should mean at least half the shots are NOT centered, WHICH DOES NOT MEAN IT MISSES. It can still hit if the target takes up enough of the reticle! So, besides completely exaggerating what I suggested, any other reasons why FGs should not have dispersion? dispersion = miss rate the AFG does not need that it has already been crippled with a slow moving infantryman and a charge that cant be stored. If you cant move your dropship from a fatty in nearly 6 seconds your doing it wrong. On most maps you dont even have to think you just need to go up and you can get out of a FG range. Think of forge guns as snipers for vehicles. We are going to use every advantage terrain wise to take you out and so will a swarm user. Only differance is with a swarm user you MIGHT see the swarms before they hit you but they do very similar damage as you so kindly did the math for us. So why is the AFG so much better? It doesnt track automatically like the swarms will and sometimes those will even follow around buildings and such. If proto swarms were more common you would probably be complaining about them instead but the AFG is a nice general purpose FG since the HMG is so situation many heavys use it.

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