Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...)

Regular loses to any SMG in CQC. (wtf?)

Burst wins at CQC, but only if the heavy has perfect aim and gets the first volley off. And if the netcode isn't being a ****.


I believe the correct solution here is to get rid of the burst variant completely, and change the RPM of regular and assault variant to 3000 so that they can perform their roles as intended.


If you disagree you are a bad player. Discuss (and by discuss, I mean agree with me).

Keep the burst and make it 10,000 rpm! And shoot MD rounds!

Spool up would also work, but it's fairly clear that CCP had no intention of coding secondary weapon functions at this time. And by at this time, I mean ever. Because that's how they roll.


CCP prefers to do number tweaks because it requires less effort. This allows them to stay within their comfort zone and still give us what we need.

''Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...)''
ITs the RANGED variant of a CQ weapon. You get more range than ANY CQ weapon except the Scr pistol,but you wont get more range than mid-long ranged weapons. Call me bad or whatever,but this was a stupid question.

''Regular loses to any SMG in CQC. ''
WHAT? No...

.
I believe the correct solution here is to get rid of the burst variant completely, and change the RPM of regular and assault variant to 3000 so that they can perform their roles as intended.
Decent proposition.But how about this:
-Reduce Heat buildup on the Burst HGM so that MORE bursts can be fired.
-Increase damage of Assault HMG by 1.5
-Increase RoF Of Regular HMGS to 2500

This changes would make HMGs overall better.




''If you disagree you are a bad player.''
Ok im a bad player, but at least i know what im talking about.

Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...)




If you disagree you are a bad player. Discuss (and by discuss, I mean agree with me).

Except they dont, what it usually comes down to is the first shots fired if both players are using the same level of gear

Damage: AR>SMG>HMG
The hmg is out of place. A SMG(sidearm) does more damage per round than the HMG(primary), why? The HMG should do more damage and more range than the smg, but less than an AR.

Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...)

Regular loses to any SMG in CQC. (wtf?)

Burst wins at CQC, but only if the heavy has perfect aim and gets the first volley off. And if the netcode isn't being a douche.


I believe the correct solution here is to get rid of the burst variant completely, and change the RPM of regular and assault variant to 3000 so that they can perform their roles as intended.


If you disagree you are a bad player. Discuss (and by discuss, I mean agree with me).

I guarantee you right now if you send up any HMG player against my SMG in a 1v1 CQC situation I will wreck them.

My shots are all landing at a high rate of fire without the need to waste a full second firing to gain accuracy.

Oh right, i can dance around you as well to cause you to miss even more shots. Can you dance? No, you cannot. So all of my shots are landing, most of yours are missing, and im hitting harder for every shot I land. It doesn't matter if you have perfect aim, your weapon automatically misses via its very design for the first full second. You lose every time.


SMG>HMG, it's a fact sir.





You're talking about the original Carbon build back on PC. That code is entirely incompatible with what we have now on Unreal. It was, in actuality, a completely different game they were playing. I wish it could simply be swapped over, but it cannot.

B) Allow secondary fire to spin up the HMG well in advance. CCP would despise this solution as it requires more work from them.

.

Problem is, the first shots ALWAYS have to be fired by the HMG.

A larger, heavier, slower suit is supposed to rely more on tactical placement than twitch gameplay.

but due to the way things are, he has to rely even more on twitch firing WAY in advance of his opponent so the dispersion rights itself, and then maintain tracking the entire time. And he is slower and a much easier target to kill, thanks to aim assist. Fundamentally broken concept to the core.

Nobody ever overheats. That has very little impact on the weapons performance.

That is a bad suggestion.

But you have to limit how much you can shoot at at time, which has a bg impact on weapon performance.

Again, nobody is overheating before they die. I can spray spray spray and still die long before I ever overheat.

You do not have a good grasp on the weapon's faults.

I never said overheating was a problem. If it heats up slower you can shoot longer and kill more people. Your the one who dosent fully understand the HMG.

I never said overheating was a problem. If it heats up slower you can shoot longer and kill more people. Your the one who dosent fully understand the HMG.

Good morning my fellow Mercs!!!,

I've been off the forums for quite a while and some of you may not remember me but I've had a bit of experience with the various HMG builds and the discussions about them in the forums. I agree with the OP in general but a lot of the problems with the HMG are compounded with the Heavy suit mostly it's fairly large hit box.

We used to have the HMG running at 3000 RPM pre Codex, ahhh yes good times but not so for others. I should mention that the damage used to run at 19,20 and 21 dmg for std,adv and proto respectively. So overall the HMG used to be a beast easily outgunning everything else within it's range, which also led to it's downfall as if you knew what you were doing you could basically create a pinpoint stream of death.

So then came the dark days of the Nerf Hammer, I won't bore you guys with the details but we've been slowly recovering ever since with the current version IMHO being the best since Codex..... Man that's sad to say.

I honestly can't come up with much good to say about the Assault HMG, I've been mucking around with the Adv version on more open maps as I can't be bothered to waste the ISK on Proto versions. But honestly you're better using an AR for suppression fire as it has more range, greater accuracy and higher DMG per shot which is what you need to get folks heads down. I personally would tighten the spread, increase damage per shot to above the regular version and lower the RPM on the Assault HMG then I think it might be a contender, I see the odd one about but it's not a used weapon.

The current HMG does out DPS all other infantry weapons in theory but getting every round on target can at times be a bit of an effort.... I was interested in why I was getting messed up by SMGs when I should be walking all over them so I got some help from my corp mates and made a BPO scout SMG/AR fit to go heavy hunting. Basically at ranges under what I consider 5m the heavy fits perfectly into the hip fire crosshairs and even with the turning buff once the HMG is spooling and you try to turn you're done. I don't know what to suggest about this as it's the Heavy's main drawback for out high eHP and simply buffing the HMG won't solve the fact that a SMG can almost without fail empty every round in a mag into a heavy from hip fire (please note the same goes for other weapons as well I'm not attacking the SMG, I'll never let them touch my lill Toxin!!) and nerfing other weapons won't help either.

I think the major issue that often get's overlooked is what the HMG is designed to do and in tandem the Heavy itself. Now in most games these days I run a multiple of different suits when I used to only run a Heavy due to the changing tactics and the increased map sizes. But the one suit I have in my arsenal that when used for it's designed purpose truly excels is what I call my Attrition fit now without giving away much it's a heavy with 1500 ish eHP and a boundless with 2 complex damage mods. I use this when theres either an objective or installation that has to be defended and has already been overrun. No other suit I have found can do what this bad lad does, survival doesn't come into the equation but killing as many enemies as I can before death certainly does and it does this well.

I think this is what CCP designed the suit to do. However this doesn't help when maps are large and there are sniper tanks taking out your LAV before it hit's the deck. So in the past we had the MK 2 heavy which was stat wise kinda similar to what we have now and you could move with reasonable speed around the map with your HMG and allowed you to help assaulting positions rather than sitting on objectives eating Hippo sarnies while the rest of your team do the work. Obviously we'll get the other racial variant's at some stage which I reckon will sort this issue and give some scope to the HMG in whatever incarnation it finally ends up in.

But what to do now??? Logi ARs still rain supreme and SMGs out DPS us through accuracy. I don't know but I'm looking for a solution all the time, CCP won't buff the HMG lads and I don't blame them god help us if we have a weapon that heavily outguns ARs just look at what happened to us after Codex, I never want to go through that again. I'm not saying don't try for a buff to the HMG but watch out you might just get what you wish for.....

See you out there,

Snag

CUT .

Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...)

Regular loses to any SMG in CQC. (wtf?)

Burst wins at CQC, but only if the heavy has perfect aim and gets the first volley off. And if the netcode isn't being a douche.


I believe the correct solution here is to get rid of the burst variant completely, and change the RPM of regular and assault variant to 3000 so that they can perform their roles as intended.


If you disagree you are a bad player. Discuss (and by discuss, I mean agree with me).

The current state of HMG is very dubious. From the perspective of New Eden lore, HMG - a Minmatar weapon with high RoF and short range is actually right as it should be (it's very similar in concept to EVE's Minmatar autocannons). However, the fact remains that SMG is disturbingly close to CQC performance to HMG (although I wouldn't go that far as to say SMG is better than HMG).

If you increase HMG's range, you create two problems.
First (less important) is that it would lose it's New Eden lore consistency.
Second is that by buffing it's range you'll end up with role overlaps once other heavy weapons are introduced (Amarr heavy laser primarily).
IMHO HMG should remain being a close range weapon, although it should have the longest range of all other short range weapons. It should also be the most potent one in terms of killing potential (it is a heavy weapon after all). Whether this is accomplished by increased DPS, or by better damage application is purely a matter of fine-tuning and flavor.

The alternative to all of this would be to make HMG a "placeholder" weapon, until other heavy weapon variants are introduced. Sort of heavy AR, jack-of-all-trades type of weapon. For the time being, of course.

ok im calmed down.

I got blinded by cockiness.but im ok now.

By all means the HMG IS a little underpowered.Even at Close range it still gets beat by many weapons and except nova knifes and Shotguns this should not happen.

Op is right, HMG do need buff .He just exagerated it a little.(LOT)

HMG is NOT underpowered. Do you even know how to use it? Remember, it takes approx 2.5 secs for the aim to align for your max dps on point.

Wait a second D514 DOESN'T DO THIS ALREADY? Just about every game i've played that as an HMG, or better yet a tri-pod weapon, has the barrel spin when you ADS. Hell even CoD:MW3 does this, which is where my example is from.

If anything CCP could add make it so that crouching heavies have no recoil, or very little, when shooting an HMG. So for heavies to be at their best they would have to be crouched and ADSs. I think this would help them live up to their names abit better since a moving heavy would be penalized for moving around where as a stationary heavy who's set up position, with good placement, go deny direct access to an area.

I would understand if this sounds OP but I don't think it is. Though if someone can explain what would be wrong with this idea that'd help alot.

HMG is NOT underpowered. Do you even know how to use it? Remember, it takes approx 2.5 secs for the aim to align for your max dps on point.

As someone who's actually ported code from one system to another, nothing is impossible, but can be damn difficult.

im happy with the way it is now, right now around close-medium range only coordinated players using 10k+ weapon can beat the hmg and at close range it seems most powerful unless outnumbered by zerg style.
-- snip good balancing results --

I'm not sure why people keep forgetting this: the HMG is currently mechanically broken. As, it's effectively bugged. I don't think think problems with HMG are it's design, it's really just the one glitch. Currently, the HMG doesn't actually use all of it's bullets, it only uses ~65%, the rest simply aren't counted as bullets. So in order to damage someone, you need to keep that tiny dot in the center of the reticle on target at all times. So that right there pretty much defeats the idea behind the HMG.

It's supposed to fire a cone of bullets, and damage anyone inside that cone area. But instead of being the ultimate spray-and-pray weapon, this bug ironically makes it a gun requiring constant precision. So when people talk about reducing the dispersion, I don't actually think that's necessary. Just fix the bug and make all of that dispersion actually count. So then you can fire very effectively against groups of targets coming in narrow areas, actually fulfilling that point defense role. And people trying to hop and dance around your stream of bullets will always be talking at least some damage as long as you can keep some part of your circle on them.

Of course, maybe even after fixing this, the HMG would still be a little lacking. Regardless, I definitely think fixing the bug is the best place to start.

I guarantee you right now if you send up any HMG player against my SMG in a 1v1 CQC situation I will wreck them.

My shots are all landing at a high rate of fire without the need to waste a full second firing to gain accuracy.

Oh right, i can dance around you as well to cause you to miss even more shots. Can you dance? No, you cannot. So all of my shots are landing, most of yours are missing, and im hitting harder for every shot I land. It doesn't matter if you have perfect aim, your weapon automatically misses via its very design for the first full second. You lose every time.


SMG>HMG, it's a fact sir.





You're talking about the original Carbon build back on PC. That code is entirely incompatible with what we have now on Unreal. It was, in actuality, a completely different game they were playing. I wish it could simply be swapped over, but it cannot.

Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...)

Regular loses to any SMG in CQC. (wtf?)

Burst wins at CQC, but only if the heavy has perfect aim and gets the first volley off. And if the netcode isn't being a douche.


I believe the correct solution here is to get rid of the burst variant completely, and change the RPM of regular and assault variant to 3000 so that they can perform their roles as intended.


If you disagree you are a bad player. Discuss (and by discuss, I mean agree with me).

Ok I am tired of this Checkfag moron using italics, bold, underlines to exaggerate his retardation. Seriously, HMGs are a joke. I just out DPSd a Boundless HMG with dual complex dmg mods using my M209, how do I know? His stats shown 506 shield and 6something armor and he killed a blueberry uncontested right before our engagement. I was using an ADV Sentinel with one plate and armor reps, high slot not applicable with this scenario. HMGs need help, I think heavies are nothing more than easy targets. Sure they might take a .09 second longer to mow down, but at least they cannot escape your line of fire.

Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...)

Regular loses to any SMG in CQC. (wtf?)

Burst wins at CQC, but only if the heavy has perfect aim and gets the first volley off. And if the netcode isn't being a douche.


I believe the correct solution here is to get rid of the burst variant completely, and change the RPM of regular and assault variant to 3000 so that they can perform their roles as intended.


If you disagree you are a bad player. Discuss (and by discuss, I mean agree with me).

BTW i've randomly been a blue dot on your team, and i have to say i love grouping with you even when you're not in my squad. i logi my little heart out to keep you alive and you communicate with me when you need something. Thank you for being a good heavy so I can share my logi love!! <3

I'm pretty sure its using all of the rounds, but it doesn't show them individually disperse. Instead, when -you see one one fly, you're actually watching a "packet" of two of three go out. They just happen to all land together as one shot.

You're "pretty sure"? Based on.....what? This bug isn't like a secret, I've discussed it with several people before. But it sounds like you're watching the animation of bullets fly. That's not what I"m talking about, what I'm talking about is whether or not the bullets are actually considered bullets that deal damage. Which, right now, several of them aren't. I honestly don't get why people seem to ignore this every time I bring it up. I would imagine a gun simply being bugged would be the main concern.

If you don't believe me, go try it out for yourself. You'll notice that red dot in the center of your reticle turns red when you're on target, indicating you're doing damage. And if that dot isn't on target, you stop doing damage.

You're "pretty sure"? Based on.....what? This bug isn't like a secret, I've discussed it with several people before. But it sounds like you're watching the animation of bullets fly. That's not what I"m talking about, what I'm talking about is whether or not the bullets are actually considered bullets that deal damage. Which, right now, several of them aren't. I honestly don't get why people seem to ignore this every time I bring it up. I would imagine a gun simply being bugged would be the main concern.

If you don't believe me, go try it out for yourself. You'll notice that red dot in the center of your reticle turns red when you're on target, indicating you're doing damage. And if that dot isn't on target, you stop doing damage.

All bullets count, ive tested this with people in pc

.... I think you've got the wrong guy

snip

The problem is not with the HMG it's with the AR and the SMG having too much damage with better hit detection. It used to be that more of their shots went astray, but now those 4-5 missing bullets hit their marks.

snip

Basically there are a lot of people here claiming to everyone else that they were blinded by a bias and unable to see the real reason why something does not perform as expected... and then the initial post led them on to believe that escalation of something to break balance with other systems is the answer?
*sigh*

I'm startin to think that the main problem is not the HMG, but the Heavy suit itself. A little buff over the HMG would be nice but i think the problem lies elsewhere.

snip

A lot of guys try to play heavy as new players thinking it will buy them time till they learn the game better. But the reality is no matter what suit you have you need to learn the game or youll get exposed.

Its not an insult. There are just so many people who take this game very seriously.

A lot of guys try to play heavy as new players thinking it will buy them time till they learn the game better. But the reality is no matter what suit you have you need to learn the game or youll get exposed.

Its not an insult. There are just so many people who take this game very seriously.

Are you attempting to insinuate that are you superior?

I do well with HMGs...

Just saying suits dont buy wins.
Complaining about suits is a new player thing imo.

I'm sorry, what? Have you seen the current Amarr Sentinel bonuses? The feedback damage reduction affects exactly zero of the two existing heavy weapons. And the reload speed bonus, while technically beneficial, is so small that it barely does anything to the incredibly long reload times of heavy weapons, and also has nothing to do with the alleged role of infantry-tank.

Complaining about suits when they're not designed well is a logical person thing, in my opinion.

I dont know if you can drag logic into this. This game is a concept. Its someones idea of interstellar war. If one faction or suit type is preffered less or performs poorly than others then that is the intent of the concept. Wanting something to be something it isnt is not logical. But I must concede I dont know how guys walking around with miniguns are not just straight up obliterating people with rifles.

Just saying suits dont buy wins.
Complaining about suits is a new player thing imo.

More or less. You have a few solutions.


A) Normalize RPM to 3000, get rid of Burst variant. Easy solution, gives the gun more DPS overall and keeps the Burst from being affected in an incredibly broken way.

OR

B) Allow secondary fire to spin up the HMG well in advance. CCP would despise this solution as it requires more work from them.

OR


C) Leave the weapon as it is and basically double the fat suits effective HP (by giving it resistance per level or just a massive HP buff). If it can survive longer then theoretically it has time to actually rev up his gun. By doing this however, you would also have to remove the abiltiy for heavy suits to use Light weapons (besides commando) as the Fat Man would clearly be the absolute best suit for any rifle out there.


Those are the viable choices as I see it.

.... I think you've got the wrong guy

I dont know if you can drag logic into this. This game is a concept. Its someones idea of interstellar war. If one faction or suit type is preffered less or performs poorly than others then that is the intent of the concept. Wanting something to be something it isnt is not logical. But I must concede I dont know how guys walking around with miniguns are not just straight up obliterating people with rifles.

-snip-

Heat build up damage isn't a big enough problem to require a bonus for in the world of heavies. Hell, feedback damage is a bad bonus for any suit simply because you NEVER want to let a gun fully overheat unless you need that last bullet to get a kill.

It's always nice to read reasonable statements on these forums, so thanks for that. Although, it might be just a little bit disheartening that the person you effectively wrote this to will probably be able to understand, at most, about 10% of it.




There's a minor problem with this. For those who don't know, overheating the HMG doesn't actually cause any damage. It just locks you out of doing basically anything. So right now, the Sentinel bonus does literally nothing for Sentinels, unless they just happen to choose to use laser or scrambler rifles. Yea.....nice try CCP....

Really, as a bonus, feedback damage reduction should never exist. It would only be useful at near 100% reduction and only for the worst players on the planet.

.... I think you've got the wrong guy

lol maybe. you used to run solo a bit or with this lady that was in SyNergy and for the life of me I can't remember.. maybe Zaria? I usually remember names pretty well but i'll take your word on it. it was weird because it was a couple months ago and I used to run into you every other match. It could have been a name like Hiruko too. my bad, no logi love for you then haha.