DUST Search - Let's talk HMG's.

Himiko Kuronaga wrote:

I guarantee you right now if you send up any HMG player against my SMG in a 1v1 CQC situation I will wreck them.

My shots are all landing at a high rate of fire without the need to waste a full second firing to gain accuracy.

Oh right, i can dance around you as well to cause you to miss even more shots. Can you dance? No, you cannot. So all of my shots are landing, most of yours are missing, and im hitting harder for every shot I land. It doesn't matter if you have perfect aim, your weapon automatically misses via its very design for the first full second. You lose every time.

SMG>HMG, it's a fact sir.

Cosgar wrote:

Himiko Kuronaga wrote:

Spool up would also work, but it's fairly clear that CCP had no intention of coding secondary weapon functions at this time. And by at this time, I mean ever. Because that's how they roll.

CCP prefers to do number tweaks because it requires less effort. This allows them to stay within their comfort zone and still give us what we need.

Early alpha demos had noob tubes on ARs. Secondary fire options were there, they probably still have the framework laying around somewhere.

You're talking about the original Carbon build back on PC. That code is entirely incompatible with what we have now on Unreal. It was, in actuality, a completely different game they were playing. I wish it could simply be swapped over, but it cannot.

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Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1730	Posted - 2013.10.05 23:59:00 - [1] - Quote Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...) Regular loses to any SMG in CQC. (wtf?) Burst wins at CQC, but only if the heavy has perfect aim and gets the first volley off. And if the netcode isn't being a douche. I believe the correct solution here is to get rid of the burst variant completely, and change the RPM of regular and assault variant to 3000 so that they can perform their roles as intended. If you disagree you are a bad player. Discuss (and by discuss, I mean agree with me).
Ion Crush Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 133	Posted - 2013.10.06 00:01:00 - [2] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...) Regular loses to any SMG in CQC. (wtf?) Burst wins at CQC, but only if the heavy has perfect aim and gets the first volley off. And if the netcode isn't being a ****. I believe the correct solution here is to get rid of the burst variant completely, and change the RPM of regular and assault variant to 3000 so that they can perform their roles as intended. If you disagree you are a bad player. Discuss (and by discuss, I mean agree with me). Keep the burst and make it 10,000 rpm! And shoot MD rounds!
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1730	Posted - 2013.10.06 00:03:00 - [3] - Quote Ion Crush wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...) Regular loses to any SMG in CQC. (wtf?) Burst wins at CQC, but only if the heavy has perfect aim and gets the first volley off. And if the netcode isn't being a ****. I believe the correct solution here is to get rid of the burst variant completely, and change the RPM of regular and assault variant to 3000 so that they can perform their roles as intended. If you disagree you are a bad player. Discuss (and by discuss, I mean agree with me). Keep the burst and make it 10,000 rpm! And shoot MD rounds! MICHAEL BAY! KABLABLEHBLABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
Cosgar ParagonX 5654	Posted - 2013.10.06 00:11:00 - [4] - Quote Assault needs to have a severely reduced dispersion or do the opposite of every other HMG variant by getting less accurate the more you hold down the trigger. Burst might need more rounds fired per shot. I don't have much experience with it outside of being on the business end, didn't know there was an issue. Standard HMG and all the variants need to go back to what they were in Chromosome as that suppressive, single direction force to be reckoned with. Sharpshooter was a real game breaker back then when you had it maxed out, but I never saw anything wrong with the weapon back then. In fact, I think the shield tanked heavy suits were the original concept of how the Minmatar heavy might operate. The HMG is going to need a serious rework anyway since all the SP investment into being a glorified camper doesn't seem to be worth it on paper. I'd suggest scrapping the damn thing for a more complex yet rewarding style similar to Brutal Doom. ADS button controls spool up, range, and dispersion but it's loud enough to alert anyone in proximity and the fire button... well, you get the point. The more you spool up, the better but you also overheat faster. This of course makes the gun a bit harder to use, but the versatility you get compared to being a gimped SMG would be worth it.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1731	Posted - 2013.10.06 00:20:00 - [5] - Quote Spool up would also work, but it's fairly clear that CCP had no intention of coding secondary weapon functions at this time. And by at this time, I mean ever. Because that's how they roll. CCP prefers to do number tweaks because it requires less effort. This allows them to stay within their comfort zone and still give us what we need.
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1584	Posted - 2013.10.06 00:20:00 - [6] - Quote ''Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...)'' ITs the RANGED variant of a CQ weapon. You get more range than ANY CQ weapon except the Scr pistol,but you wont get more range than mid-long ranged weapons. Call me bad or whatever,but this was a stupid question. ''Regular loses to any SMG in CQC. '' WHAT? No... . I believe the correct solution here is to get rid of the burst variant completely, and change the RPM of regular and assault variant to 3000 so that they can perform their roles as intended. Decent proposition.But how about this: -Reduce Heat buildup on the Burst HGM so that MORE bursts can be fired. -Increase damage of Assault HMG by 1.5 -Increase RoF Of Regular HMGS to 2500 This changes would make HMGs overall better. ''If you disagree you are a bad player.'' Ok im a bad player, but at least i know what im talking about.
Cosgar ParagonX 5654	Posted - 2013.10.06 00:27:00 - [7] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Spool up would also work, but it's fairly clear that CCP had no intention of coding secondary weapon functions at this time. And by at this time, I mean ever. Because that's how they roll. CCP prefers to do number tweaks because it requires less effort. This allows them to stay within their comfort zone and still give us what we need. Early alpha demos had noob tubes on ARs. Secondary fire options were there, they probably still have the framework laying around somewhere.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1731	Posted - 2013.10.06 00:27:00 - [8] - Quote I guarantee you right now if you send up any HMG player against my SMG in a 1v1 CQC situation I will wreck them. My shots are all landing at a high rate of fire without the need to waste a full second firing to gain accuracy. Oh right, i can dance around you as well to cause you to miss even more shots. Can you dance? No, you cannot. So all of my shots are landing, most of yours are missing, and im hitting harder for every shot I land. It doesn't matter if you have perfect aim, your weapon automatically misses via its very design for the first full second. You lose every time. SMG>HMG, it's a fact sir.
PEW JACKSON s i n g u l a r i t y 71	Posted - 2013.10.06 00:33:00 - [9] - Quote Sorry about melting heavies with my Cala's SMG.... I didn't know 3 dmg mods + headshots were so OP. I think the HMG shouldn't have that crap cone dispersion it has. Give it the Assault scrambler cone of fire and 15m range increase, then if that's not enough maybe a slight tweak to other numbers.
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1586	Posted - 2013.10.06 00:36:00 - [10] - Quote ''SMG>HMG, it's a fact sir.'' NO ITS NOT... do you even know what a FACT is? Jeez. im out.this QQ thread is getting real ...stoopid. Just because it happens you were more skillful than the heavies you've faced doesnt mean that SMG > HMG is a fact. Im sure a good heavy with plenty of experience will drop your dancing around with a SMG butt. XD

Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 74	Posted - 2013.10.06 00:40:00 - [11] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: ''Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...)'' ITs the RANGED variant of a CQ weapon. You get more range than ANY CQ weapon except the Scr pistol,but you wont get more range than mid-long ranged weapons. Call me bad or whatever,but this was a stupid question. ''Regular loses to any SMG in CQC. '' WHAT? No... . I believe the correct solution here is to get rid of the burst variant completely, and change the RPM of regular and assault variant to 3000 so that they can perform their roles as intended. Decent proposition.But how about this: -Reduce Heat buildup on the Burst HGM so that MORE bursts can be fired. -Increase damage of Assault HMG by 1.5 -Increase RoF Of Regular HMGS to 2500 This changes would make HMGs overall better. ''If you disagree you are a bad player.'' Ok im a bad player, but at least i know what im talking about. Huh, you have the same opinion I do on the HMG, but yeah, you're right, the problem isn't it's range, it's the damage output, it should shoot faster and harder, I'm with Check Mate on this one, the SMG can out perform the HMG too easily, partly cause of it's higher damage-per-shot it has over the HMG, which is weird since the HMG is bigger and shoots bigger bullets, so why dose the SMG do more damage per-shot?
Stevez Lau Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2013.10.06 00:45:00 - [12] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...) If you disagree you are a bad player. Discuss (and by discuss, I mean agree with me). You're an idiot for saying this. Not even gonna get into a discussion with someone that posts like this.
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1587	Posted - 2013.10.06 00:47:00 - [13] - Quote ok im calmed down. I got blinded by cockiness.but im ok now. By all means the HMG IS a little underpowered.Even at Close range it still gets beat by many weapons and except nova knifes and Shotguns this should not happen. Op is right, HMG do need buff .He just exagerated it a little.(LOT)
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2042	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:04:00 - [14] - Quote Except they dont, what it usually comes down to is the first shots fired if both players are using the same level of gear
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1731	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:42:00 - [15] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Except they dont, what it usually comes down to is the first shots fired if both players are using the same level of gear Problem is, the first shots ALWAYS have to be fired by the HMG. A larger, heavier, slower suit is supposed to rely more on tactical placement than twitch gameplay. but due to the way things are, he has to rely even more on twitch firing WAY in advance of his opponent so the dispersion rights itself, and then maintain tracking the entire time. And he is slower and a much easier target to kill, thanks to aim assist. Fundamentally broken concept to the core.
RedZer0 MK1 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 68	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:47:00 - [16] - Quote Damage: AR>SMG>HMG The hmg is out of place. A SMG(sidearm) does more damage per round than the HMG(primary), why? The HMG should do more damage and more range than the smg, but less than an AR.
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1588	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:51:00 - [17] - Quote RedZer0 MK1 wrote: Damage: AR>SMG>HMG The hmg is out of place. A SMG(sidearm) does more damage per round than the HMG(primary), why? The HMG should do more damage and more range than the smg, but less than an AR. Not quite. Taking in consideration the HMG has double the RoF; The HMg Boosts Over 30 damage compared to the SMG's 25 on avarege ,considering Rof. SMG: 25 (AVRG) 1000Rof HMG:16 2000 RoF Meaning the HMG shoots 2 bullets in the time a SMG shoots 1. In Good theory the HMG does more damage the problem is dispersion rate, that at Close quarters (15 mts less) Should be NULL. The SMG, just while Aimin with L1 reduces this Dispersion to almost 0% in CQ situations; there by, the problem.
Ace Starburst PiZzA DuDeS 30	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:52:00 - [18] - Quote Question, if the HMG had range on par with assault class rifles but still had the dispersion it has now would it be fair? My thought is that much of the bullets go around the target and therefore can still be out DPS'ed at range by assault rifles. However it can still effectively suppress targets. But then again, CCP has their own idea of what an HMG should do and we're along for the ride.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1732	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:54:00 - [19] - Quote More or less. You have a few solutions. A) Normalize RPM to 3000, get rid of Burst variant. Easy solution, gives the gun more DPS overall and keeps the Burst from being affected in an incredibly broken way. OR B) Allow secondary fire to spin up the HMG well in advance. CCP would despise this solution as it requires more work from them. OR C) Leave the weapon as it is and basically double the fat suits effective HP (by giving it resistance per level or just a massive HP buff). If it can survive longer then theoretically it has time to actually rev up his gun. By doing this however, you would also have to remove the abiltiy for heavy suits to use Light weapons (besides commando) as the Fat Man would clearly be the absolute best suit for any rifle out there. Those are the viable choices as I see it.
XxWarlordxX97 Ancient Exiles 4676	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:59:00 - [20] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Assault variant loses to AR's and SR's at range. (Why? It's the ranged variant...) Regular loses to any SMG in CQC. (wtf?) Burst wins at CQC, but only if the heavy has perfect aim and gets the first volley off. And if the netcode isn't being a douche. I believe the correct solution here is to get rid of the burst variant completely, and change the RPM of regular and assault variant to 3000 so that they can perform their roles as intended. If you disagree you are a bad player. Discuss (and by discuss, I mean agree with me). You just made my best friends list

Andrew Ka Hollowed Kings 23	Posted - 2013.10.06 02:00:00 - [21] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I guarantee you right now if you send up any HMG player against my SMG in a 1v1 CQC situation I will wreck them. My shots are all landing at a high rate of fire without the need to waste a full second firing to gain accuracy. Oh right, i can dance around you as well to cause you to miss even more shots. Can you dance? No, you cannot. So all of my shots are landing, most of yours are missing, and im hitting harder for every shot I land. It doesn't matter if you have perfect aim, your weapon automatically misses via its very design for the first full second. You lose every time. SMG>HMG, it's a fact sir. Cosgar wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Spool up would also work, but it's fairly clear that CCP had no intention of coding secondary weapon functions at this time. And by at this time, I mean ever. Because that's how they roll. CCP prefers to do number tweaks because it requires less effort. This allows them to stay within their comfort zone and still give us what we need. Early alpha demos had noob tubes on ARs. Secondary fire options were there, they probably still have the framework laying around somewhere. You're talking about the original Carbon build back on PC. That code is entirely incompatible with what we have now on Unreal. It was, in actuality, a completely different game they were playing. I wish it could simply be swapped over, but it cannot. As someone who's actually ported code from one system to another, nothing is impossible, but can be damn difficult.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1739	Posted - 2013.10.06 02:05:00 - [22] - Quote It is possible, of course. But it would require Additional EffortGäó and CCP members tend not to be incredibly fond of that as they are under the constant stress of self-imposed deadlines.
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1588	Posted - 2013.10.06 02:12:00 - [23] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: B) Allow secondary fire to spin up the HMG well in advance. CCP would despise this solution as it requires more work from them. . +1 on this. If (For example) by pressing L1 instead of that crappy aim you had the option to let it pressed and the HMG would start spinning.While in this mode its impossible to run with the HMG (like when you have a charged shot for the FG) but while pressing R1 after the L1 ; the Machingun will automatically shoot at with dispersion fire. Now thats a reasonable solution.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1742	Posted - 2013.10.06 02:17:00 - [24] - Quote I also believe that its the very least likely solution we're going to get, therefore time spent bitching to CCP is probably better used on one of the other two. If Foxfour was in charge of weapons he would probably say something like "Why do we have to spend so many man hours on coding in a secondary weapon function for just this ONE weapon? This is not a priority, maybe later guys". And then it would never get done, because under that logic something else is always a bigger priority.
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 404	Posted - 2013.10.06 02:34:00 - [25] - Quote Reduce heat build up of normal version Reduce dispersion on assult version Normal version should be able to kill multiple people without having to worry about overheating, while the assult should trade some damage and heat build up for better range and accuraccy.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1743	Posted - 2013.10.06 02:40:00 - [26] - Quote Nobody ever overheats. That has very little impact on the weapons performance. That is a bad suggestion.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2042	Posted - 2013.10.06 02:50:00 - [27] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Delta 749 wrote: Except they dont, what it usually comes down to is the first shots fired if both players are using the same level of gear Problem is, the first shots ALWAYS have to be fired by the HMG. A larger, heavier, slower suit is supposed to rely more on tactical placement than twitch gameplay. but due to the way things are, he has to rely even more on twitch firing WAY in advance of his opponent so the dispersion rights itself, and then maintain tracking the entire time. And he is slower and a much easier target to kill, thanks to aim assist. Fundamentally broken concept to the core. Except aim assist is no longer that bad and if your base shield and armor skills are maxed out like they should be than a heavy with no modules has just over 1k ehp and since suit turning is no longer capped dancing around them is far less viable unless the enemy is physically touching you As for tracking the enemy everyone has to do that and even if you are slow strafing a bit does help, its harder to hit a moving target while you are circle strafing than it is to hit the dumb fat kid standing still Now as for actually shooting first that **** applies to almost every gun barring lots of dodging and cover but if someone gets the drop on you and can put 15 rounds in your back then yeah thats going to reduce your advantage drastically Its funny, a lot of heavy complaints are comparable tanker complaints "Waaah we are big, waaaah stuff hits us, waaaah we chose the big class so stuff shouldnt be able to kill us despite this list of advantages" The stuff works fine for a good player, hell I was playing around today and two matches I saw this heavy just ripping people apart, granted he was running full proto and a LLAV but something as simple as cruising around away from the main hot spots and picking targets of opportunity IE guys alone on the fringe trying to slink around the flank or the back, was drastically effective just by playing smart
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 404	Posted - 2013.10.06 03:20:00 - [28] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Nobody ever overheats. That has very little impact on the weapons performance. That is a bad suggestion. But you have to limit how much you can shoot at at time, which has a bg impact on weapon performance.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1743	Posted - 2013.10.06 03:27:00 - [29] - Quote Dexter307 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Nobody ever overheats. That has very little impact on the weapons performance. That is a bad suggestion. But you have to limit how much you can shoot at at time, which has a bg impact on weapon performance. Again, nobody is overheating before they die. I can spray spray spray and still die long before I ever overheat. You do not have a good grasp on the weapon's faults.
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 404	Posted - 2013.10.06 06:45:00 - [30] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Dexter307 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Nobody ever overheats. That has very little impact on the weapons performance. That is a bad suggestion. But you have to limit how much you can shoot at at time, which has a bg impact on weapon performance. Again, nobody is overheating before they die. I can spray spray spray and still die long before I ever overheat. You do not have a good grasp on the weapon's faults. I never said overheating was a problem. If it heats up slower you can shoot longer and kill more people. Your the one who dosent fully understand the HMG.



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