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Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
1686
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 15:54:00 -
[91] - Quote
Protected Void wrote: 2. Straw-man argument.
That's not a strawman. That's his argument. He's objecting to the introduction of a scouting ability on the basis of scouts not being very good at, and/or adequately rewarded for, scouting. |
Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
133
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 17:54:00 -
[92] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Protected Void wrote: 2. Straw-man argument.
That's not a strawman. That's his argument. He's objecting to the introduction of a scouting ability on the basis of scouts not being very good at, and/or adequately rewarded for, scouting.
Nooo - he's pointing out that neither you nor anyone else should make narrow assumptions about how the users of a particular dropsuit should play purely based on the name of that dropsuit.
So, either you're failing to understand what he was writing, or you're misrepresenting his opinion on purpose and arguing against the opinion you're claiming he has (ie. making a strawman argument). |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
1691
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 20:42:00 -
[93] - Quote
Protected Void wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Protected Void wrote: 2. Straw-man argument.
That's not a strawman. That's his argument. He's objecting to the introduction of a scouting ability on the basis of scouts not being very good at, and/or adequately rewarded for, scouting. Nooo - he's pointing out that neither you nor anyone else should make narrow assumptions about how the users of a particular dropsuit should play purely based on the name of that dropsuit. So, either you're failing to understand what he was writing, or you're misrepresenting his opinion on purpose and arguing against the opinion you're claiming he has (ie. making a strawman argument).
The key distinction here is that I am not telling people how to use their suits. I am saying that using a scout for something other than scouting is not a sound basis for objecting to making scouts better at scouting. Is that a distinction you can grasp? That there is a difference between building a suit to fit a role, and what someone does with that suit afterwards? Your objection is no better than the CalLogis who complained they could no longer fit Duvolles after the nerf. It isn't a valid objection. |
Hagintora
Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation
153
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 21:57:00 -
[94] - Quote
While I agree that Scouts sharing the Intel gained from their scan would give Scouts a more defined role, I do not agree that it is a buff for Scouts. Or a buff for squads for that matter. Given the Scan Range for Scouts (20m for GalScouts, 15m for MinScouts with all skills maxed out), and the Scan Range for the Active Scanner (100m) this would not really do anyone any good at all. CCP would have to increase the Scan Range for Scouts first in order to have the ability be useful on the field. Yes, we can put Range Amplifiers on our suits to increase that, but that only decreases our survivability, which everyone agrees is pretty low to begin with.
Secondly, I don't like the idea of giving any player/suit/class an active ability that they don't have direct control over. Logi's can choose who, and when, to revive/rep, players with Active Scanners can choose when to use it (as can anyone when using equipment). If you wanted to give Scouts a free Active Scanner (that they can "level up"), that doesn't take up a slot, or any CPU/PG then fine, but as it stands, I don't feel that this idea is viable. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1448
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 23:53:00 -
[95] - Quote
Hagintora wrote:While I agree that Scouts sharing the Intel gained from their scan would give Scouts a more defined role, I do not agree that it is a buff for Scouts. Agreed. The proposal is what it is, but a "buff" it is not. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
71
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 00:26:00 -
[96] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote: Good for you.
Bad for you if you're trying to participate in a discussion among peers. Perhaps you missed the point that I was being dismissive of your unproductive & baseless statement. Haha more productive than "see my other post" as if it somehow contains some applicable counterarguments. You're ranting & hypocritical now. I'm not wasting my time here.
Sweet, good riddance troll. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
71
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 00:49:00 -
[97] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Protected Void wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Protected Void wrote: 2. Straw-man argument.
That's not a strawman. That's his argument. He's objecting to the introduction of a scouting ability on the basis of scouts not being very good at, and/or adequately rewarded for, scouting. Nooo - he's pointing out that neither you nor anyone else should make narrow assumptions about how the users of a particular dropsuit should play purely based on the name of that dropsuit. So, either you're failing to understand what he was writing, or you're misrepresenting his opinion on purpose and arguing against the opinion you're claiming he has (ie. making a strawman argument). The key distinction here is that I am not telling people how to use their suits. I am saying that using a scout for something other than scouting is not a sound basis for objecting to making scouts better at scouting. Is that a distinction you can grasp? That there is a difference between building a suit to fit a role, and what someone does with that suit afterwards? Your objection is no better than the CalLogis who complained they could no longer fit Duvolles after the nerf. It isn't a valid objection.
Ahh I should've read the rest of the comments before giving up with you; I can't let this one go.
First of all, nice dodge. You didn't respond to anything he said but instead just reasserted another position. There is no main distinction between our arguments because they are opposite. They're not the same with a "main distinction" making them different. You're in favor of a change to the current suit setup that would negatively effect an extremely common (arguably the only effective) way to run the suit. Before you disagree with this, take into account the many scout users that have agreed that this is not a positive change to the suit because it it detrimental to their current strategy. So while I and many other scouts are opposed to this not yet implemented change, you are for it. Who then is trying to limit the ways that a suit can be used? Don't pretend like me being opposed to something that isn't currently in the game somehow means that I'm saying "the suit can't be used this way" when it's not even possible to run it that way.
You're ignoring the fact that this change would change the way the suit could be used and not just adding to it a defined role. It destroys more roles than it adds. It turns this suit into an active scanner at best. This is plenty of reason for objection. This suit is hardly usable as is and would make it even more worthless than it is now if it couldn't be used in the one way people have made it effective. I'm ok with the suggestion to give them marking capabilities as previously stated somewhere above (I apologize, I can't remember who suggested it). This makes the suit have an extra ability that is "scout-like" without destroying the current play styles people use. The key difference here is that it makes the suit good for scouting without making it an active scanner. Saying my basis for objection is just because I don't use the suit for scouting is just ridiculous and no one else reading these posts could possibly agree.
The CalLogi analogy is invalid because CalLogis took advantage of existing exploits to become OP. CCP then nerfed them. That's what happened. There wasn't an effort to make them more Logi-like. It was simply to make them less powerful in every way. People who ran pure Logi roles with the suit were also nerfed. Comparing the objection of those exploiting the CalLogi suits because they were not able to run them as OP assault suits to the objection to a suggestion that is meant to "buff" the current scout suit because it really nerfs it in more ways than it buffs is incredibly absurd. You're just trying to draw a connection between people agreeing with the CalLogi nerd and people agreeing with the shared vision because it's so easy to agree to nerf something obviously OP when really the two situations are nothing alike.
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Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
1693
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 00:57:00 -
[98] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Protected Void wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Protected Void wrote: 2. Straw-man argument.
That's not a strawman. That's his argument. He's objecting to the introduction of a scouting ability on the basis of scouts not being very good at, and/or adequately rewarded for, scouting. Nooo - he's pointing out that neither you nor anyone else should make narrow assumptions about how the users of a particular dropsuit should play purely based on the name of that dropsuit. So, either you're failing to understand what he was writing, or you're misrepresenting his opinion on purpose and arguing against the opinion you're claiming he has (ie. making a strawman argument). The key distinction here is that I am not telling people how to use their suits. I am saying that using a scout for something other than scouting is not a sound basis for objecting to making scouts better at scouting. Is that a distinction you can grasp? That there is a difference between building a suit to fit a role, and what someone does with that suit afterwards? Your objection is no better than the CalLogis who complained they could no longer fit Duvolles after the nerf. It isn't a valid objection. Ahh I should've read the rest of the comments before giving up with you; I can't let this one go. First of all, nice dodge. You didn't respond to anything he said but instead just reasserted another position. There is no main distinction between our arguments because they are opposite. They're not the same with a "main distinction" making them different. You're in favor of a change to the current suit setup that would negatively effect an extremely common (arguably the only effective) way to run the suit. Before you disagree with this, take into account the many scout users that have agreed that this is not a positive change to the suit because it it detrimental to their current strategy. So while I and many other scouts are opposed to this not yet implemented change, you are for it. Who then is trying to limit the ways that a suit can be used? Don't pretend like me being opposed to something that isn't currently in the game somehow means that I'm saying "the suit can't be used this way" when it's not even possible to run it that way. You're ignoring the fact that this change would change the way the suit could be used and not just adding to it a defined role. It destroys more roles than it adds. It turns this suit into an active scanner at best. This is plenty of reason for objection. This suit is hardly usable as is and would make it even more worthless than it is now if it couldn't be used in the one way people have made it effective. I'm ok with the suggestion to give them marking capabilities as previously stated somewhere above (I apologize, I can't remember who suggested it). This makes the suit have an extra ability that is "scout-like" without destroying the current play styles people use. The key difference here is that it makes the suit good for scouting without making it an active scanner. Saying my basis for objection is just because I don't use the suit for scouting is just ridiculous and no one else reading these posts could possibly agree. The CalLogi analogy is invalid because CalLogis took advantage of existing exploits to become OP. CCP then nerfed them. That's what happened. There wasn't an effort to make them more Logi-like. It was simply to make them less powerful in every way. People who ran pure Logi roles with the suit were also nerfed. Comparing the objection of those exploiting the CalLogi suits because they were not able to run them as OP assault suits to the objection to a suggestion that is meant to "buff" the current scout suit because it really nerfs it in more ways than it buffs is incredibly absurd. You're just trying to draw a connection between people agreeing with the CalLogi nerd and people agreeing with the shared vision because it's so easy to agree to nerf something obviously OP when really the two situations are nothing alike.
Still ranting. If you can't make your point simply, you don't have one to make. This isn't quantum mechanics. TL;DR |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
71
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 02:52:00 -
[99] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:[ Still ranting. If you can't make your point simply, you don't have one to make. This isn't quantum mechanics. TL;DR
My points started simple but your inability to understand them or realize your own logical fallacies required me to expand on the basics and individual arguments. It's difficult to by concise when the person you're arguing with leaves issues open/misdirects the conversion/builds and army of straw men. Being too lazy to read my responses to your claims, labeling them as rants, and then somehow dismissing them tells me that you have no way to refute what I or anyone else is saying. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
1693
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 03:02:00 -
[100] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:[ Still ranting. If you can't make your point simply, you don't have one to make. This isn't quantum mechanics. TL;DR My points started simple but your inability to understand them or realize your own logical fallacies required me to expand on the basics and individual arguments. It's difficult to by concise when the person you're arguing with leaves issues open/misdirects the conversion/builds and army of straw men. Being too lazy to read my responses to your claims, labeling them as rants, and then somehow dismissing them tells me that you have no way to refute what I or anyone else is saying.
I've answered anybody else. Just not you. |
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Toby Flenderson
research lab
72
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Posted - 2013.10.06 03:33:00 -
[101] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:[ Still ranting. If you can't make your point simply, you don't have one to make. This isn't quantum mechanics. TL;DR My points started simple but your inability to understand them or realize your own logical fallacies required me to expand on the basics and individual arguments. It's difficult to by concise when the person you're arguing with leaves issues open/misdirects the conversion/builds and army of straw men. Being too lazy to read my responses to your claims, labeling them as rants, and then somehow dismissing them tells me that you have no way to refute what I or anyone else is saying. I've answered anybody else. Just not you.
You're answering me now. You answered me before. Our back and forth posts probably make up most of this thread. If you can't address any points in the posts or can't refute them then just let me know. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
1693
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 03:38:00 -
[102] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:[ Still ranting. If you can't make your point simply, you don't have one to make. This isn't quantum mechanics. TL;DR My points started simple but your inability to understand them or realize your own logical fallacies required me to expand on the basics and individual arguments. It's difficult to by concise when the person you're arguing with leaves issues open/misdirects the conversion/builds and army of straw men. Being too lazy to read my responses to your claims, labeling them as rants, and then somehow dismissing them tells me that you have no way to refute what I or anyone else is saying. I've answered anybody else. Just not you. You're answering me now. You answered me before. Our back and forth posts probably make up most of this thread. If you can't address any points in the posts or can't refute them then just let me know.
These are responses, not answers. That's another one of those distinctions you keep missing. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
72
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 03:53:00 -
[103] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:[ Still ranting. If you can't make your point simply, you don't have one to make. This isn't quantum mechanics. TL;DR My points started simple but your inability to understand them or realize your own logical fallacies required me to expand on the basics and individual arguments. It's difficult to by concise when the person you're arguing with leaves issues open/misdirects the conversion/builds and army of straw men. Being too lazy to read my responses to your claims, labeling them as rants, and then somehow dismissing them tells me that you have no way to refute what I or anyone else is saying. I've answered anybody else. Just not you. You're answering me now. You answered me before. Our back and forth posts probably make up most of this thread. If you can't address any points in the posts or can't refute them then just let me know. These are responses, not answers. That's another one of those distinctions you keep missing.
If you're seeing a distinction between the "answers" you've given everyone else and the "responses" you've been handing out then I think you've missed the distinction between "refute" and "answer". |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
1693
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 04:10:00 -
[104] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote: Still ranting. If you can't make your point simply, you don't have one to make. This isn't quantum mechanics. TL;DR
I've answered anybody else. Just not you. You're answering me now. You answered me before. Our back and forth posts probably make up most of this thread. If you can't address any points in the posts or can't refute them then just let me know. These are responses, not answers. That's another one of those distinctions you keep missing.
If you're seeing a distinction between the "answers" you've given everyone else and the "responses" you've been handing out then I think you've missed the distinction between "refute" and "answer".[/quote]
That would be begging the question. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
75
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 05:06:00 -
[105] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote: Still ranting. If you can't make your point simply, you don't have one to make. This isn't quantum mechanics. TL;DR
I've answered anybody else. Just not you. You're answering me now. You answered me before. Our back and forth posts probably make up most of this thread. If you can't address any points in the posts or can't refute them then just let me know. These are responses, not answers. That's another one of those distinctions you keep missing. If you're seeing a distinction between the "answers" you've given everyone else and the "responses" you've been handing out then I think you've missed the distinction between "refute" and "answer".
That would be begging the question.[/quote]
How? Explain that. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
1695
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 05:18:00 -
[106] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote: I've answered anybody else. Just not you.
You're answering me now. You answered me before. Our back and forth posts probably make up most of this thread. If you can't address any points in the posts or can't refute them then just let me know. These are responses, not answers. That's another one of those distinctions you keep missing. If you're seeing a distinction between the "answers" you've given everyone else and the "responses" you've been handing out then I think you've missed the distinction between "refute" and "answer".
That would be begging the question.[/quote]
How? Explain that.[/quote]
No thanks. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
76
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 05:21:00 -
[107] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote: I've answered anybody else. Just not you.
You're answering me now. You answered me before. Our back and forth posts probably make up most of this thread. If you can't address any points in the posts or can't refute them then just let me know. These are responses, not answers. That's another one of those distinctions you keep missing. If you're seeing a distinction between the "answers" you've given everyone else and the "responses" you've been handing out then I think you've missed the distinction between "refute" and "answer". That would be begging the question.
How? Explain that.[/quote]
No thanks.[/quote]
Didn't think so considering my post was a conditional statement hence the "if" and so I'm not assuming the hypothesis to be true as would be needed to be begging the question. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
1695
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 05:30:00 -
[108] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote: If you're seeing a distinction between the "answers" you've given everyone else and the "responses" you've been handing out then I think you've missed the distinction between "refute" and "answer".
That would be begging the question. How? Explain that. No thanks. Didn't think so considering my post was a conditional statement hence the "if" and so I'm not assuming the hypothesis to be true as would be needed to be begging the question.
No no, it's still begging the question. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
76
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 05:41:00 -
[109] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:No no, it's still begging the question.
Nuh uh |
IAmDuncanIdaho II
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
103
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 10:51:00 -
[110] - Quote
ROFLMAO
Cab for Chunky Munkey Cab for Toby Flenderson |
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KalOfTheRathi
Nec Tributis
789
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 11:12:00 -
[111] - Quote
Besides all the QQ back and forth, not to mention the finger pointing (which finger is obvious), this has degenerated quite seriously. Funny, but ineffective even for these forums.
Back on point: Nobody, even the Scout, is going to get better Scanners because the new Scanners cost SP and ISK/AUR. Not when CCP/Shanghai has removed functionality we used to have and forced us to drop SP/ISK/AUR to regain a small portion of what we had. They have no history of returning something they decided against. Which is part of why I detest the vehicle balance solution that is upcoming.
Why would Scouts be treated any differently than the rest of the Fits? And pointing out bad guys is actually not a function that DUST Scouts do very often at all. It is difficult to find a Sniper that will tell a squad where the Reds are much less one of the bunny hopping crowd.
Just because you want it ... I was going to say "doesn't mean you are going to get it". However, considering this is DUST and CCP/Shanghai is at the steering wheel of chaos for this mess how about, "Means you will Never See It In Your Lifetime". |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
1695
|
Posted - 2013.10.06 14:51:00 -
[112] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:No no, it's still begging the question. Nuh uh
Well if you say so. |
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