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Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
107
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Posted - 2013.10.03 14:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
I wouldn't want this. As some have stated above, it would seriously impact a scout's sneakiness potential. If I could choose when to share, ok, but I don't want to be forced to share. If I'm not starting squads myself, I have little to no control over who I actually have in my squad. I'm already selective in terms of when I use my active scanner, since I have my stealth attempts ruined regularly if I scan too often. |
Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
109
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Posted - 2013.10.03 17:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:As a scout, hell no! Why does a logi get to be logi + slayer + tank and scout has to be a spotting b!tch for that logi? No. Give scouts vision of all squad member rather than giving the squad intel on what scout is seeing, then I'll call it fair. What a bunch of selfish bast*rds you all are. You'd be helping your team! Actually scouting! Did you folks pick scout just as an alternate combat setup?
This, of course, begs the following questions:
- What completely selfless, team-helping role are you fulfilling on the battle field?
- Why is that choice superior to scout suits wanting to do more interesting things than skulking around telling all the big boys where the meanies are?
- Why are you surprised that people are pursuing combat roles in a combat game?
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Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
110
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Posted - 2013.10.03 18:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:As a scout, hell no! Why does a logi get to be logi + slayer + tank and scout has to be a spotting b!tch for that logi? No. Give scouts vision of all squad member rather than giving the squad intel on what scout is seeing, then I'll call it fair. What a bunch of selfish bast*rds you all are. You'd be helping your team! Actually scouting! Did you folks pick scout just as an alternate combat setup? Scouts are at a huge disadvantage in every way except for stealth/speed. Adding incentive for squad mates to sabotage the scout while they try to perform in the only way they can would be a horrible idea. Imagine if scouts could sabotage assault characters by siphoning off their ammo or something like that. We wouldn't be calling assault characters greedy for resisting this change. Also, of course people pick the suit for an alternative combat setup. Are you actually implying that is wrong? May as well criticize any logi that that takes advantage of their own equipment or runs as assault. Or heavies that snipe. Scouts are not rewarded for helping their team. Logis get thousands of WP for reviving, restocking, healing, etc. Assault characters get the most kills. Heavies are well equipped to storm objectives. Nothing about playing the "scout role" yields the player any bonus WP or advantage other than the small stealth advantage helping them sneak around. If anything squad vision would be like running a scanner pre-1.6 but without the advantage of being able to kill the enemies you scan yourself like a logi/assault suit can. Sabotage the scout? You send the scout in first and the squad picks their targets. What exactly goes wrong? You use the example of siphoning off Assault ammo. Ever heard of nanohives? I don't criticise logis who run assault, or heavies who snipe. I criticise people who pick a role and complain that it doesn't do things it was never tailored to do. This is what scouts in this thread are doing by objecting to this idea. The lack of WP rewards is a balance issue being addressed as we speak. It is not a valid complaint.
I'm genuinely curious: Where is this scout role you're talking about described and decided? Are they found in the Dust manual. Hmmm....no. Anywhere in the scout suit description? Hm, let's see: "the scout suit is the obvious choice for infiltration, counter-espionage, and assassination". Huh? What's that? "Assassination"? Well, waddyaknow. I guess maybe the scout suit was actually meant to be able to kill someone, not just sidle around looking for people.[/sarcasm]
CCP's main marketing spiel for this game is that the player's can decide their own roles, rather than have the game force them to play in one particular way. So, yes, we reserve the right to be negative to suggestions that would unduly limit our choices. |
Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
110
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Posted - 2013.10.03 18:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Scouts are at a huge disadvantage in every way except for stealth/speed. Adding incentive for squad mates to sabotage the scout while they try to perform in the only way they can would be a horrible idea. Imagine if scouts could sabotage assault characters by siphoning off their ammo or something like that. We wouldn't be calling assault characters greedy for resisting this change. This is in reference to solo stealth/assassination work, correct? If so, then why are you in a squad of slayers/direct assault? If you want to assassinate reds, either do it on your own or join a squad specializing stealth that you can work together with. The point of a squad is to form groups to aid each other and work together. There is nothing wrong with using a scout in a combative role. In fact, scouts can do well using stealth and surprise (hopefully even better once CCP finally gets around to buffing us). BUT there is something wrong with joining a squad and then expecting to do everything solo.
The point is not to do everything solo. A scenario that would arise too often if the scout's passive scan was shared: My squad spots a group of enemies. The assaults, logis and heavies attack them more or less directly. I flank around, carefully staying out of the enemy's cone of vision, watching the radar to see which way they're facing. I time my approach, prepare to pick them off one by one, starting with the rearmost...and a blueberry assault from my squad that's been tipped off by my shared radar comes barging in with his AR, makes the enemy turn around and spot me, boom, I'm dead. This happened all the time when all squad vision was shared. It'll happen again if scout vision is shared, only I won't be getting any intelligence from the rest of my squad anymore. |
Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
110
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Posted - 2013.10.03 20:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Protected Void wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:As a scout, hell no! Why does a logi get to be logi + slayer + tank and scout has to be a spotting b!tch for that logi? No. Give scouts vision of all squad member rather than giving the squad intel on what scout is seeing, then I'll call it fair. What a bunch of selfish bast*rds you all are. You'd be helping your team! Actually scouting! Did you folks pick scout just as an alternate combat setup? This, of course, begs the following questions:
- What completely selfless, team-helping role are you fulfilling on the battle field?
- Why is that choice superior to scout suits wanting to do more interesting things than skulking around telling all the big boys where the meanies are?
- Why are you surprised that people are pursuing combat roles in a combat game?
1. I'm a speed-fit, profile-dampened Min logi in skirmish and an *actual* scout when ambushing in a squad, laser assault when solo. I believe that's 2/3 for selflessness, no? 2. The choice is superior because it's what the suit is designed to do. 3. I'm not surprised by that. What I'm surprised by is the apparent entitlement to have everything be combat viable 1st, intended role 2nd.
- I'll bet you do. Which ones of those three is it you think are completely selfless? As in "gets nothing in return for services done to the team, and is not allowed to do anything for his own benefit", which is what it seems you think scouts should do?
- Oh, right. I'll have to refer you to another post I made in reply to you, where I asked where it was set in stone that scouts should do nothing but look for enemies and leave the killing to everyone else. Is that what you do as a scout in ambushing? Scan for the team, inform them on mic of the enemy movements and run away if the enemy gets close to you? You never kill any enemies?
- Again, I'll refer you to that other post I mentioned in my previous point.
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Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
110
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Posted - 2013.10.03 20:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:
That quote from the suit description is perfect. I hope you don't mind me throwing that in people's faces from now on whenever someone tries to tell me to "do my job" as a scout.
No, by all means, go wild |
Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
110
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Posted - 2013.10.03 20:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote: 1. In skirmish I'm assuming you do a lot of hacking for the team? Something that helps the team though no doubt. The fact that running from point to point hacking gives you 1,000-2,000 WP per match doesn't mean anything to you. I'd say you're closer to 1/3 and only if you really just run scanners as a scout. Otherwise you're not doing much anyone can't do themselves in ambush. 2. How? Explain that. Because profile dampening helps you sneak up on people or snipe and the melee bonus helps you assassinate. If you mean the scan radius bonus on the GalScout then you must be joking. How often do you scan someone within the smallest circle on the radar that a teammate can't also see? Scanners are very costly and scouts have very low CPU/PG so I really don't see why you think the role you're referring to was even considered when designing the Scout suit. 3. I refer you to bullet point 2 for the intended role counterargument. Entitlement? Are you kidding? Everyone has the same level of entitlement in this game to do whatever they want to with whatever suit they want to. Scout suit users that never touch a scanner have no one to answer to just like logi users that never run reppers/needles.
1. You've assumed I don't want scouts to be rewards for their efforts. Don't do that. 2. The clue is in the title: scout. Just because CCP haven't been very good at making it work, it isn't an argument in favour of commandeering the suit for something else. If that was the case, the early WP-less Chromosome logis should have seen an entire redesign towards alternate assaults too. 3. No they don't. Heavies don't get equipment. Logis don't get forge guns. You're making an argument I've literally just addressed in that same post. We're entitled to do what we want with a suit, we aren't entitled to have the suit's design decisions tailored to something other than its intended role.
Point 2: Ok. Then, as an assault, you're only allowed to kill people and blow stuff up. No healing, reviving, hacking or anything else that isn't a display of direct aggression towards the enemy. Likewise, as a logi, you're only allowed to distribute equipment and ferry people around. Ie. perform logistics. Strictly no killing.
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Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
110
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Posted - 2013.10.03 20:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Void, have you heard of a strawman argument?
Yes, why? Have I misrepresented your arguments?
Also, have you heard of evasiveness? You still haven't answered my question about who decided that the scout has one exact role to fulfill; a role that strangely coincides with what you think a scout should do. |
Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
110
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Posted - 2013.10.03 20:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Protected Void wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote: 1. In skirmish I'm assuming you do a lot of hacking for the team? Something that helps the team though no doubt. The fact that running from point to point hacking gives you 1,000-2,000 WP per match doesn't mean anything to you. I'd say you're closer to 1/3 and only if you really just run scanners as a scout. Otherwise you're not doing much anyone can't do themselves in ambush. 2. How? Explain that. Because profile dampening helps you sneak up on people or snipe and the melee bonus helps you assassinate. If you mean the scan radius bonus on the GalScout then you must be joking. How often do you scan someone within the smallest circle on the radar that a teammate can't also see? Scanners are very costly and scouts have very low CPU/PG so I really don't see why you think the role you're referring to was even considered when designing the Scout suit. 3. I refer you to bullet point 2 for the intended role counterargument. Entitlement? Are you kidding? Everyone has the same level of entitlement in this game to do whatever they want to with whatever suit they want to. Scout suit users that never touch a scanner have no one to answer to just like logi users that never run reppers/needles.
1. You've assumed I don't want scouts to be rewards for their efforts. Don't do that. 2. The clue is in the title: scout. Just because CCP haven't been very good at making it work, it isn't an argument in favour of commandeering the suit for something else. If that was the case, the early WP-less Chromosome logis should have seen an entire redesign towards alternate assaults too. 3. No they don't. Heavies don't get equipment. Logis don't get forge guns. You're making an argument I've literally just addressed in that same post. We're entitled to do what we want with a suit, we aren't entitled to have the suit's design decisions tailored to something other than its intended role. Point 2: Ok. Then, as an assault, you're only allowed to kill people and blow stuff up. No healing, reviving, hacking or anything else that isn't a display of direct aggression towards the enemy. Likewise, as a logi, you're only allowed to distribute equipment and ferry people around. Ie. perform logistics. Strictly no killing. See my above post.
Which one? The one where you attempt to distract from a question you don't have a good answer to by accusing me of using strawman arguments? |
Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
110
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Posted - 2013.10.03 20:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Protected Void wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Void, have you heard of a strawman argument? Yes, why? Have I misrepresented your arguments? Also, have you heard of evasiveness? You still haven't answered my question about who decided that the scout has one exact role to fulfill; a role that strangely coincides with what you think a scout should do. Yes. You've misrepresented me. I'm not interested in continuing any exchange unless you can manage a proper representation.
Well, in that case, I do apologize. Here's what I interpreted as your most important point: Scouts should only be spotting enemies for other players and not expect to be doing anything else, simply because the name of their suit is "scout". Apparently I've misunderstood. Would you be interested in explaining your position in simpler words, so I can understand them? |
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Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
133
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Posted - 2013.10.05 10:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote: 1. You've assumed I don't want scouts to be rewards for their efforts. Don't do that. 2. The clue is in the title: scout. Just because CCP haven't been very good at making it work, it isn't an argument in favour of commandeering the suit for something else. If that was the case, the early WP-less Chromosome logis should have seen an entire redesign towards alternate assaults too. 3. No they don't. Heavies don't get equipment. Logis don't get forge guns. You're making an argument I've literally just addressed in that same post. We're entitled to do what we want with a suit, we aren't entitled to have the suit's design decisions tailored to something other than its intended role.
1. How does any argument I make assume that? The only assumption in that post is an open one about your tactics in skirmish. The only reference to scouts in that bullet was that they don't identify enemies any better than any other class unless they use an active scanner. I'm starting to think you're just trolling me with your logic. 2. Now i'm positive you're trolling me. I revert back to my "chef" suit argument for this. The name of the suit means nothing if the makers did not give it "scout-like" attributes. By your logic if they renamed the heavy suit "scout" then people using them as they are now would be wrong to do so because it wasn't "intended" to be used that way. 3. Yes they do. Hahaha. If I run a heavy suit, I can use it however I want. Everyone has that right. If you can fit it, you can use it. Heavies not having equipment slots does not limit people to how they can run the suit. It doesn't mean they can't be a support character if that's what the user wants to do. It doesn't mean they can't be a scout if that's what they want it to. The reason people don't is because they have poor scout attributes. The irony here is that you refuse to believe that scout suits have bad scout attributes because they have "scout" in the name while completely ignoring the reality of the suit itself. It's also funny that you're the one in favor of tailoring the suit to your vision of the intended role. I'm not trying to get any changes done to the suit, as you can see I'm oppose to the change. 1. You criticised my position on account of it requiring scouts to be selfless. If I want scouts rewarded for their work, your argument is moot. So either you were making the assumption, or you were making no sense. Which was it? 2. So your argument is that a scout suit shouldn't have scouting abilities because it doesn't currently have very good scouting abilities. 3. You're agreeing with me here. I don't think you've realised it though.
2. Straw-man argument.
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Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
133
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Posted - 2013.10.05 17:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Protected Void wrote: 2. Straw-man argument.
That's not a strawman. That's his argument. He's objecting to the introduction of a scouting ability on the basis of scouts not being very good at, and/or adequately rewarded for, scouting.
Nooo - he's pointing out that neither you nor anyone else should make narrow assumptions about how the users of a particular dropsuit should play purely based on the name of that dropsuit.
So, either you're failing to understand what he was writing, or you're misrepresenting his opinion on purpose and arguing against the opinion you're claiming he has (ie. making a strawman argument). |
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