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Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1288
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 03:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1009985#post1009985
CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: We are planning on giving Scout role some love in the future. We can see their performance dropping in game overall.
^ Following up. Been 82 Days.
Will the Hugs be awesome? Will they help us Kill or Hide. Maybe Both? Will they be here in time for Christmas?
Hate to bug you. Know you're busy. Seeking something to share with the guys. No harm in asking, right?
Thanks! |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
4283
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 03:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
/take a peek from the shadows /raises his hand
Are we getting love yet?
/disappears into the shadows |
TechMechMeds
Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc.
253
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 04:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
When I do run scout I find if I don't have a scanner I may as well just cook grenades at redline and blow myself up repeatedly |
Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
492
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 12:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
I haven't specced into active scanners yet and it is REALLY damn hard to have good games given the new hit detection, disabled squad sight and Aim Assist. If it wasn't for dumb luck and lots of dirty tricks, I'd really be SOL.
I'm also curious to know if any planned changes are in the works. |
Eyemakerwet
R 0 N 1 N
10
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Posted - 2013.09.26 12:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
As a scout, better hiding is better hunting |
Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS Public Disorder.
93
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 15:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bump. Any hint about the future would be appreciated. |
Absolute Idiom II
No Free Pass
781
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 15:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Scan results from scout suits should propagate to the entire team. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1296
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Posted - 2013.09.26 16:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Absolute Idiom II wrote:Scan results from scout suits should propagate to the entire team.
That'd be a buff for everyone else but Scouts. How would that this help Scout performance?
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Cosgar
ParagonX
5481
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Absolute Idiom II wrote:Scan results from scout suits should propagate to the entire team. That'd be a buff for everyone else but Scouts. How would that this help Scout performance? It would make scanning more personalized for scouts to the point that they're not completely obligated to carry a scanner for starters. But since we'll be getting WP for using the scanner, it kind of makes the point moot. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
311
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Absolute Idiom II wrote:Scan results from scout suits should propagate to the entire team. That'd be a buff for everyone else but Scouts. How would that this help Scout performance?
It's a buff in that scouts would gain an actual role in a team. As you yourself have pointed out, everything a scout can do, some other suit can do just as well with more eHP. Scouts sharing passive scan results allows scouts to do something no other suit can do--provide a constant stream of tactical data without alerting the enemy. I.E. the scout becomes the eyes and ears of their squad as a scout should be.
Can this hurt lone-wolf cqc hunting? Yes, if you squad with randoms who don't understand you are trying to lone-wolf... while in a squad. Otherwise, there is no real downside to the scout. If a scout moves off on their own, the game will be the same as now. If they move with their squad, their squad will be able to move more intelligently and the scout doesn't have to be the only one watching the squad's back. |
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Awry Barux
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
144
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 16:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:Shotty GoBang wrote:Absolute Idiom II wrote:Scan results from scout suits should propagate to the entire team. That'd be a buff for everyone else but Scouts. How would that this help Scout performance? It's a buff in that scouts would gain an actual role in a team. As you yourself have pointed out, everything a scout can do, some other suit can do just as well with more eHP. Scouts sharing passive scan results allows scouts to do something no other suit can do--provide a constant stream of tactical data without alerting the enemy. I.E. the scout becomes the eyes and ears of their squad as a scout should be. Can this hurt lone-wolf cqc hunting? Yes, if you squad with randoms who don't understand you are trying to lone-wolf... while in a squad. Otherwise, there is no real downside to the scout. If a scout moves off on their own, the game will be the same as now. If they move with their squad, their squad will be able to move more intelligently and the scout doesn't have to be the only one watching the squad's back.
If they give us this and call it a scout buff, I'm going to throw rocks through the nearest window. Running around standing within 10-20M of enemies so my team can see them is NOT a role, thank you very much. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
311
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 17:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Awry Barux wrote:If they give us this and call it a scout buff, I'm going to throw rocks through the nearest window. Running around standing within 10-20M of enemies so my team can see them is NOT a role, thank you very much.
Which is also why we need a buff to our passive scan range (among other things). Our current range is next to useless unless you stack a lot of proto range extenders while having lvl 5 in gal scouts... which doesn't leave you with much cpu/pg for fitting other useful things.
Ideally, scouts should get a 20m base range. With extenders at 5, that would go up to 25. Then if a scout wishes to run with the team or have a larger passive scan range, they could throw on a range extender or two and have a respectable scan radius. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1298
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 18:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:
It's a buff in that scouts would gain an actual role in a team. As you yourself have pointed out, everything a scout can do, some other suit can do just as well with more eHP. Scouts sharing passive scan results allows scouts to do something no other suit can do--provide a constant stream of tactical data without alerting the enemy. I.E. the scout becomes the eyes and ears of their squad as a scout should be.
Can this hurt lone-wolf cqc hunting? Yes, if you squad with randoms who don't understand you are trying to lone-wolf... while in a squad. Otherwise, there is no real downside to the scout. If a scout moves off on their own, the game will be the same as now. If they move with their squad, their squad will be able to move more intelligently and the scout doesn't have to be the only one watching the squad's back.
Your position is well argued, and it makes perfect sense. The fact remains, however, that Active Scanners are the ultimate "eyes and ears" recon tool. They are far superior in this role compared to a Scout's passive Recon capability. They're more precise, they cover substantially greater areas, and they operate at minimal risk.
The Active Scanner would remain superior at Recon even if our base scan range was substantially buffed.
Once WP are awarded for scan-assisted kills, there will likely be more Active Scanners than Scouts in any given battle. The Scouts' role -- if a buffed in relation to Recon -- will thereby remain undefined.
Assassination, Survivability, Mobility, Flexibility (equipment / module slots) ... These are the things that affect Scout Performance. These are the things I'm hoping CCP is focusing upon in crafting our long-awaited buff.
- Shotty GoBang |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
312
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 18:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Your position is well argued, and it makes perfect sense. The fact remains, however, that Active Scanners are the ultimate "eyes and ears" recon tool. They are far superior in this role compared to a Scout's passive Recon capability. They're more precise, they cover substantially greater areas, and they operate at minimal risk.
The Active Scanner would remain superior at Recon even if our base scan range was substantially buffed.
Once WP are awarded for scan-assisted kills, there will likely be more Active Scanners than Scouts in any given battle. The Scouts' role -- if a buffed in relation to Recon -- will thereby remain undefined.
Assassination, Survivability, Mobility, Flexibility (equipment / module slots) ... These are the things that affect Scout Performance. These are the things I'm hoping CCP is focusing upon in crafting our long-awaited buff.
- Shotty GoBang
You are correct. Currently active scanners way out perform scouts in scouting. However, that is because one of the main clauses that differentiates active and passive is null and void at the moment. Active is supposed to have the benefit of being a more intensive search but only for short bursts and at limited angles. Unfortunately, due to CCP's implementation, the limited angles bit is nullified by the ballerina spin.
You are also correct in that scouts need more than this for its buff (much more in fact). However, sharing scanner info info has already been implemented and therefore should only require very minimal changes to make it a scout perk.
And it wouldn't be a boost to scout performance per say... It would be more of an adjustment to the scout so that it can contribute more to the squad-based gameplay that is supposed to be a key feature of Dust. |
Ghost Kaisar
Pradox One
320
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
@ Shotty GoBang @Krom Ganesh
Okay, prepare yourself. This is a long one. (I had to cut out quotes to make room )
You guys make some excellent points on Scanning and the roles of scouts. IMHO scouts have lost the true "Recon" role due to the scanner. Yet reliance on the scanner can make our stealth skills more powerful
That is where the combat based scouts come in handy. Since we can't be scanned (with enough dang SP) we become much more efficient at surprising people. The only giveaway is the giant "some margin of error" that is displayed.
On that topic, I really think they need to nerf that part of the scanner. What is the point of avoiding the scanner if it still tells people that someone is there? Yeah, you don't know EXACTLY where they are, but you can still pin down a rough area, and find them.
Thus, I propose the following.
Suppose that my Dampening is at 30db. I can avoid every scanner but the proto. However, the Basic and ADV scanner's will still give me a "some margin of error". What if they made it so that if you exceed the detection range by a certain margin, you will instead be excluded from the scan. You would not get the "some margin of error", instead, they would think that nothing is there (that is the point of dampening right?). However, if you are just below the scanning precision you WOULD get the margin of error. That is because you are JUST below it (within 1-2 db), and it can detect the anomaly, just not where.
This way, Proto Scanners would still do their job against a 30db scout. But the point would be is that you would have to bust out Proto to find out roughly where the scout is. An ADV or Basic scanner would just ignore you, making flanking more effective.
On the same note, once they fix the stealth mechanic, they do need to buff our offensive firepower. What is the point of staying hidden if that all we can do? We need to be able to provide reliable CQC damage, not just the current "shoot em in the back and hope for the best" when we face PRO opponents.
A Backstab/Rear attack damage bonus would be nice for the Mimatar scout suit (emphasis on combat). Imagine if you could just walk up to a suit from behind and issue one or two quick melee's to the back to "assassinate" a target? This would be a better racial bonus from the knives, as it encourages them to engage from the rear than the front. Knives would still be deadly, but you would have to charge them to take on targets head on, while you could just quick knife them from behind if need be.
For the Gallente, they need buffs to emphasize their abilities as "Infiltrators". Passive scan needs a buff as knowing where targets are helps in avoiding detection (on Both suits. It's good for a minnie to have 20m base, but the bonuses to the Gallente is where it would really shine. So that they could cover a large area of the compound to maneuver around squads).
For both, you need some extra slots( 2/4 for Gal, and 3/3 for min) and CPU/PG boost to accompany it. Sprint speed needs to be raised to an 8.0 base for gallente and 8.3 for Minmatar. Walking speed needs a boost too. 5.8 for gallente and 6.0 for Minnie. This would help our overall speed, which combined with stealth, would make us good at running away from combat, or for rushing a target or objective.
That being said, Suit eHP needs to stay the same! With these buffs, the scout will have their purpose, that being speed and stealth and versatility. We should NOT be frontline fighters. Any assault should be able to melt us if we try to engage head on, but we should be able to run away from them if need be (not unharmed though. we have a high recharge rate for a reason. So that we can run away injured and quickly recuperate. That being said, a base 1.0 rep wouldn't hurt either
Combat Scouts should be able to avoid detection, perform rapid flanks and hit and run tactics, and be able to quickly eliminate lone/injured targets. They should have a lower eHP than an infiltrator, yet a faster recovery time (EMPHASIS ON HIT AND RUN, NOT STAYING POWER. A good combat scout should still be reporting back to their home flags for ammo or healing unless they run a Compact hive themselves (Which would make them more detectable as it gives away their rough location. Risk/Reward.)
Infiltration Scouts should be able to keep tabs on troop movements in an enemy base (to stay undetected, and to relay information), they should be able to take out lone/injured targets, and have more staying power than a Combat Scout, yet a slower recovery time (since they will be staying in compounds longer, they will be detected eventually. They need more eHP to survive that encounter, and to make a good infiltrator surprisingly difficult to remove from a compound. EMPHASIS ON SURVIVIAL, NOT OFFENSE)
This is my Opinion. Feel free to hate, debate, troll, or lol at it as you see fit.
Just my 0.02 ISK people. Ghost out. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1298
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote: Tons of valuable feedback for CCP :-)
We're all in agreement that the "Scout Fix" won't be accomplished by a single tweak. Let's hope that CCP shares in our consensus.
Good stuff, Krom and Ghost. Thank you and +1.
- Shotty
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
313
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
@Ghost Kaiser
The backstab bonus is probably going to be difficult to implement, glitchy, and can potentially be abused* so I don't think that is a good idea.
Any idea to make scanners actually not able to detect us is a good one.
It's going to be a hard sell (at least with the community) for us to get both a speed boost and an extra slot (would be nice though).
* I imagine people will abuse it the same way you can abuse that perk in Skyrim where enemies lose sight of you for a second to deal sneak attack damage in the middle of a fight. In dust, if you get noticed, run past enemy, quickly turn around and knife/shotgun them for the bonus. |
Ghost Kaisar
Pradox One
321
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:@Ghost Kaiser
The backstab bonus is probably going to be difficult to implement, glitchy, and can potentially be abused* so I don't think that is a good idea.
Any idea to make scanners actually not able to detect us is a good one.
It's going to be a hard sell (at least with the community) for us to get both a speed boost and an extra mod slot (would be nice though).
* I imagine people will abuse it the same way you can abuse that perk in Skyrim where enemies lose sight of you for a second to deal sneak attack damage in the middle of a fight. In dust, if you get noticed, run past enemy, quickly turn around and knife/shotgun them for the bonus.
Yeah, thinking back. A backstab/Rear attack bonus would be hard to implement.
Any other idea's? I still want to get a bonus that would reward flanking/stealth when used for offense. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
313
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 19:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Krom Ganesh wrote:@Ghost Kaiser
The backstab bonus is probably going to be difficult to implement, glitchy, and can potentially be abused* so I don't think that is a good idea.
Any idea to make scanners actually not able to detect us is a good one.
It's going to be a hard sell (at least with the community) for us to get both a speed boost and an extra mod slot (would be nice though).
* I imagine people will abuse it the same way you can abuse that perk in Skyrim where enemies lose sight of you for a second to deal sneak attack damage in the middle of a fight. In dust, if you get noticed, run past enemy, quickly turn around and knife/shotgun them for the bonus. Yeah, thinking back. A backstab/Rear attack bonus would be hard to implement. Any other idea's? I still want to get a bonus that would reward flanking/stealth when used for offense.
I've thought about it and the only thing that I can come up with won't work until we get the ability to modify our guns.
My idea is for scouts to have access to a special gun mod that greatly increases damage but also reduces rate of fire as well as ammo capacity. This would allow us to trade effectiveness in sustained combat for greater initial damage. |
DJINN Marauder
Ancient Exiles
1447
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 20:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
Great stuff here guys! |
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ALPHA DECRIPTER
M.E.R.C. Conventional Forces League of Infamy
519
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 21:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
@ wall-o-text (lol)
Backstab: Put a cooldown so if you are spotted then you must remain undetected for a set time before you can perform the backstab (damage boost to melee attacks).
Speed: Currently the speed difference from base to sprint is 40% for any suit so a 5.8 base speed would yield 8.1 sprint and a 6.0 base would give 8.4 sprint. Either way I still agree.
Passive Scan: Scouts are dead when spotted so increasing there awareness can only help (not all scouts are running actives ALL THE TIME)
Passive rep: good idea actually No one has ever suggested that and the idea of not going beyond 1 rps will keep players mindset focused on stealth and not frontlining.
@Krom Other racial variants of SMG may have this "Stopping power" you are looking for....hopefully.
@Absolute This would be valuable to scouts that choose to run uplinks as apposed to active scanners. Would also give scout snipers back there recon ability.
[general comment] Loving this thread guys.
`Sigh. Just another fun game of DUST. |
Ghost Kaisar
Pradox One
324
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 21:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Krom Ganesh wrote:@Ghost Kaiser
The backstab bonus is probably going to be difficult to implement, glitchy, and can potentially be abused* so I don't think that is a good idea.
Any idea to make scanners actually not able to detect us is a good one.
It's going to be a hard sell (at least with the community) for us to get both a speed boost and an extra mod slot (would be nice though).
* I imagine people will abuse it the same way you can abuse that perk in Skyrim where enemies lose sight of you for a second to deal sneak attack damage in the middle of a fight. In dust, if you get noticed, run past enemy, quickly turn around and knife/shotgun them for the bonus. Yeah, thinking back. A backstab/Rear attack bonus would be hard to implement. Any other idea's? I still want to get a bonus that would reward flanking/stealth when used for offense. I've thought about it and the only thing that I can come up with won't work until we get the ability to modify our guns. My idea is for scouts to have access to a special gun mod that greatly increases damage but also reduces rate of fire as well as ammo capacity. This would allow us to trade effectiveness in sustained combat for greater initial damage.
Until then: Damage Mods |
IAmDuncanIdaho II
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
81
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 22:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Shotty GoBang wrote:Absolute Idiom II wrote:Scan results from scout suits should propagate to the entire team. That'd be a buff for everyone else but Scouts. How would that this help Scout performance? It would make scanning more personalized for scouts to the point that they're not completely obligated to carry a scanner for starters. But since we'll be getting WP for using the scanner, it kind of makes the point moot.
I can't tell if this would be good or not - gut instinct is not but there are good arguments both sides. One thing I think of is, when does a scout ever run with the squad blob? Unless you're actually trying to find the enemy, which often isn't difficult, and scanners excel at, not really seeing much use. But I'd love to try it out.
The other thing I'd say is I think we as scouts are at the point where we're so desperate for something, we're scared to even suggest something might be good when it might not be the best thing we could get. Because we feel like we're only gonna get one christmas present, and the next present is a year away. |
Tyrionn Callazar
843 Boot Camp
8
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Posted - 2013.09.26 23:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
I only use scout suit. The only suggestion is to make us scout harder to aim because with the aim-assist everyone if a damn marksman. specially when I go against AR. I think scouts should be a little bit fast to compensate for their lower shield and armour.
Also when I snipe I find really annoying that I cant control my weapon's zoom. I find it really frustrating. |
lrian Locust
DUST University Ivy League
130
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 00:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Absolute Idiom II wrote:Scan results from scout suits should propagate to the entire team. That'd be a buff for everyone else but Scouts. How would that this help Scout performance? I notice that when I light up my pursuers with a scanner, there's often a blueberry that comes running and helps me out.
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Vargralor
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2013.09.27 01:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
On the topic of suit bonuses what are your thoughts on changing the dampening bonus? Currently a proto scout suit can never, ever have the db level it has on paper as your prerequisite skill modifies it. This is a fairly pointless use of a bonus and it is exactly the sort of bonus that the EVE ship rebalancing has been scrapping and rolling into the base stats. I know that we do gain a dampening bonus for having racial scout to lvl 5 and running an advanced or basic scout suit but what if we just adjust the base db level of the three suits to match what it should be with the appropriate prerequisite skills and have a whole new bonus? (I would post numbers here but I am at work and do not have them).
My idea for a replacement bonus to give a bit more a CQC focus for scouts and let us do a bit more damage is 2% per lvl to Sidearm damage. The Minmatar bonus would have to reduced from 5% per lvl to 3% per lvl for NK damage to maintain parity but we then get a nice damage boost with sidearms across all suits. At lvl 5 it is the equivalent of a complex damage mod (which we struggle to fit).
This gives us a good boost to our damage but doesn't lock us into sidearms. Shotguns, ARs and Sniper Rifles would all still be used too but out backup weapons in those fits would be much more potent. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1305
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 01:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Vargralor wrote:On the topic of suit bonuses what are your thoughts on changing the dampening bonus?
The current dampening bonus keeps Lvl(5) Scouts safe from Basic and Advanced Scanners. As these Scanner tiers are most commonly used, this Bonus is actually quite useful (IMHO). |
GVGMODE
WorstPlayersEver
38
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 02:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tanks have been waiting for some love for so long but been getting face palms and butt raped by increases in the effectiveness of AV |
Vargralor
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2013.09.27 02:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Vargralor wrote:On the topic of suit bonuses what are your thoughts on changing the dampening bonus? The current dampening bonus keeps Lvl(5) Scouts safe from Basic and Advanced Scanners. As these Scanner tiers are most commonly used, this Bonus is actually quite useful (IMHO).
Very true but if it is rolled into the suit we wouldn't actually lose it. We would still have that bonus on the proto suit and should be able to achieve it on advanced suits with the right fit. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1307
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 02:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
lrian Locust wrote: I notice that when I light up my pursuers with a scanner, there's often a blueberry that comes running and helps me out.
Help can be a very bad thing for a Scout, especially when the Help blows your cover.
- When sneaking up behind a target, the last thing you want is Helpful from behind alerting your target.
- When sneaking up on a pile of reds, the last thing you want is Help rushing in and ruining your nade strike.
- When luring an opponent into a trap, the last thing you want is Help interfering.
- When haunting an objective, the last thing you want is Help engaging a would-be hacker.
- When operating in confined spaces, the last thing you want is Help on your heels obstructing your escape route.
- When working a flank, the last thing you want is nearby Help lighting up on hostile scanners.
Like Duncan said, there's a chance we Scouts are only gonna get one Christmas present. I hope that present helps us directly, as opposed to encouraging the above sorts of Help. |
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