DUST Search - The Fall of the Scout, Followup

Hagintora wrote:

My thoughts on Passive Scan Radius are thus:

Keep the Scan Radius of all Medium and Heavy Frame Suits/Variants at 10m, and increase the radius for all Light Frame Suits, and Non-Gallente Scout Suits, to 15m. Gallente Scouts stay at 10m. Don't yell at me, I'm not done yet.

The major change comes in the bonus that the Scan Radius skill gives you. I say increase that to 20% per level, and increase the Gallente Racial bonus for scouts to 20% as well.

What you will get in the end is this:

Medium and Heavy Frame Suits/Variants - 20m Passive Scan Radius with skill at Level 5.
All Light Frame/Non- Gallente Scout Suits - 30m Passive Scan Radius with skill at Level 5.
Gallente Scouts - 40m Passive Scan Radius with skill at Level 5, and Racial Bonus at Level 5.

This gives all scouts, and the Gallente in particular, a clear advantage in scan range, but also increases the scan range of the other suits as well, making a scouts stealth capabilities meaningful outside of just avoiding the Active Scanner.

I like the Backstab idea as well. If the rumors are true, and scouts are going to get cloaking device "SoonTM", then I would tie those two together. When cloaked, a scout gets somewhere between 10-25% damage bonus on the target (at any range), giving the scout an Alpha Strike ability that we currently lack. As soon as we fire though, we become visible and the bonus is then lost until the cooldown is complete and the cloak reactivates. So as long as the scout remains in active combat he does not get the Alpha Strike Bonus. This, combined with the changes in Passive Scan listed above, would make the scout the master of the Hit and Run. Still weak in a sustained fight, but deadly when fighting on our own terms.

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ALPHA DECRIPTER M.E.R.C. Conventional Forces League of Infamy 519	Posted - 2013.09.27 03:09:00 - [31] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: lrian Locust wrote: I notice that when I light up my pursuers with a scanner, there's often a blueberry that comes running and helps me out. Help can be a very bad thing for a Scout, especially when the Help blows your cover. When sneaking up behind a target, Helpful fire from behind alerting your target doesn't help. When stalking a pile of reds, Help rushing in and ruining your nade strike doesn't help. When luring an opponent into a trap, Help interfering doesn't help. When honorably dueling a hostile Scout Brother, Help tilting odds doesn't help. When haunting an objective, Help engaging a would-be hacker prematurely doesn't help. When operating in confined spaces, Help on your heels obstructing your escape route doesn't help. When working a flank, tag-along Help lighting up on hostile scanners doesn't help. These scenarios are arguments against the "buff" of sharing Passive Scan results. In contrast, sharing Active Scanner results -- as you've described -- is indeed quite helpful. Like Duncan said, there's a good chance we Scouts are only gonna get one Christmas present from CCP. If that turns out to be the case, I hope CCP gifts us with something that helps directly. I could be wrong, but helping the Help will likely not help our performance. huh....makes sense `Sigh. Just another fun game of DUST
IAmDuncanIdaho II The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 84	Posted - 2013.09.27 08:20:00 - [32] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: lrian Locust wrote: I notice that when I light up my pursuers with a scanner, there's often a blueberry that comes running and helps me out. Help can be a very bad thing for a Scout, especially when the Help blows your cover. When sneaking up behind a target, Helpful fire from behind alerting your target doesn't help. When stalking a pile of reds, Help rushing in and ruining your nade strike doesn't help. When luring an opponent into a trap, Help interfering doesn't help. When honorably dueling a hostile Scout Brother, Help tilting odds doesn't help. When haunting an objective, Help engaging a would-be hacker prematurely doesn't help. When operating in confined spaces, Help on your heels obstructing your escape route doesn't help. When working a flank, tag-along Help lighting up on hostile scanners doesn't help. These scenarios are arguments against the "buff" of sharing Passive Scan results. In contrast, sharing Active Scanner results -- as you've described -- is indeed quite helpful. Like Duncan said, there's a good chance we Scouts are only gonna get one Christmas present from CCP. If that turns out to be the case, I hope CCP gifts us with something that helps directly. I could be wrong, but helping the Help will likely not help our performance. So what about giving scouts an innate ability to selectively upload their passively scanned targets to tacnet. If the UI somehow allowed you to select one or more reds and then hit a button to upload, you effectively............... You know what, I just decided this isn't a good idea, this is the whole idea behind using a mic............. You know what, I just decided maybe it is a good idea after all, because it's far more useful than what you can describe on a mic (which would also require you be in the same chat as everyone else) I think the idea I'm trying to convey is that marking targets for the whole team on tacnet might be a nice team addition to define a scout's role. The tacnet idents could be static (ie movement not tracked) and last for a short period of time (like 3s or something) So if we got a buff to scan radius, and this addition, we could dictate which targets we weren't going to deal with ourselves, or that we wanted to make the team aware of. I guess it's kind of like a replacement for when anyone could "light em up" by targeting a red with your weapon. It also plays well with the idea of a scout not running with the blob, because you're gonna cover more of a map and find more targets than non-recon scouts will, so that seems to make sense. This would still allow us to do everything we do now. I dunno, I also feel like I want this idea ignored because there are better things to do to scouts that you guys have all already identified in the last 84-odd days :-o
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 511	Posted - 2013.09.27 09:53:00 - [33] - Quote I think the movement speed upgrade and slots are a good idea, as well as increasing the scan range and having your profile dampening make it harder for people's AA to track you. I definitely do NOT want my profile dampening bonus rolled into the suit. For 99% of my time I am using a STD suit with L5 skills because the proto suits are just too expensive. And I don't want to fit modules on my STD/ADV suit to achieve the same level of dampening. As it stands now I get a free (in terms of not needing to waste a slot on my suit) passive reduction to my profile of 25%.... even when rolling around in my dragonfly suit. I almost never show up on scans and that is the exact reason I bothered to skill up in scout suits even knowing I'd rarely run Proto. I don't want this taken away at all. I'm a fan of marking the targets with my passive scanning as well but it needs to be by choice and not by default allowing all of my targets to show up on my team member's TAC net. As a scout I hate the idea that I may need to skill into the active scanner. It's a damn useful tool for many but if you are trying to be stealthy any merc worth their salt will notice their "you have been scanned" or "scan prevented" message. There goes my element of surprise. +1 also for the build in reps (1HP) but I actually have seen other scouts suggest this. It's a great idea - given our low HP AND low slot count.... having 87 armor not rep, or 160 armor not rep (fully skilled Minja/Gallente scout) means that after your initial battle you may be down 25% or 50% of your HP for your next engagement.... unless you waste one of your precious low slots on a repper, or your even more precious EQ slot on a triage hive.... we NEED this as scouts. No real scout would tow around a logi during their misadventures.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 148	Posted - 2013.09.27 10:33:00 - [34] - Quote My thoughts on Passive Scan Radius are thus: Keep the Scan Radius of all Medium and Heavy Frame Suits/Variants at 10m, and increase the radius for all Light Frame Suits, and Non-Gallente Scout Suits, to 15m. Gallente Scouts stay at 10m. Don't yell at me, I'm not done yet. The major change comes in the bonus that the Scan Radius skill gives you. I say increase that to 20% per level, and increase the Gallente Racial bonus for scouts to 20% as well. What you will get in the end is this: Medium and Heavy Frame Suits/Variants - 20m Passive Scan Radius with skill at Level 5. All Light Frame/Non- Gallente Scout Suits - 30m Passive Scan Radius with skill at Level 5. Gallente Scouts - 40m Passive Scan Radius with skill at Level 5, and Racial Bonus at Level 5. This gives all scouts, and the Gallente in particular, a clear advantage in scan range, but also increases the scan range of the other suits as well, making a scouts stealth capabilities meaningful outside of just avoiding the Active Scanner. I like the Backstab idea as well. If the rumors are true, and scouts are going to get cloaking device "SoonTM", then I would tie those two together. When cloaked, a scout gets somewhere between 10-25% damage bonus on the target (at any range), giving the scout an Alpha Strike ability that we currently lack. As soon as we fire though, we become visible and the bonus is then lost until the cooldown is complete and the cloak reactivates. So as long as the scout remains in active combat he does not get the Alpha Strike Bonus. This, combined with the changes in Passive Scan listed above, would make the scout the master of the Hit and Run. Still weak in a sustained fight, but deadly when fighting on our own terms.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 202	Posted - 2013.09.27 11:05:00 - [35] - Quote Hagintora wrote: My thoughts on Passive Scan Radius are thus: Keep the Scan Radius of all Medium and Heavy Frame Suits/Variants at 10m, and increase the radius for all Light Frame Suits, and Non-Gallente Scout Suits, to 15m. Gallente Scouts stay at 10m. Don't yell at me, I'm not done yet. The major change comes in the bonus that the Scan Radius skill gives you. I say increase that to 20% per level, and increase the Gallente Racial bonus for scouts to 20% as well. What you will get in the end is this: Medium and Heavy Frame Suits/Variants - 20m Passive Scan Radius with skill at Level 5. All Light Frame/Non- Gallente Scout Suits - 30m Passive Scan Radius with skill at Level 5. Gallente Scouts - 40m Passive Scan Radius with skill at Level 5, and Racial Bonus at Level 5. This gives all scouts, and the Gallente in particular, a clear advantage in scan range, but also increases the scan range of the other suits as well, making a scouts stealth capabilities meaningful outside of just avoiding the Active Scanner. I like the Backstab idea as well. If the rumors are true, and scouts are going to get cloaking device "SoonTM", then I would tie those two together. When cloaked, a scout gets somewhere between 10-25% damage bonus on the target (at any range), giving the scout an Alpha Strike ability that we currently lack. As soon as we fire though, we become visible and the bonus is then lost until the cooldown is complete and the cloak reactivates. So as long as the scout remains in active combat he does not get the Alpha Strike Bonus. This, combined with the changes in Passive Scan listed above, would make the scout the master of the Hit and Run. Still weak in a sustained fight, but deadly when fighting on our own terms. Well you outcome seems reasonable but your start doesn't . So what the reason for suit specialised in passive scanning having a lower value than a normal not specialized light frame? Doesn't make much sense to me... So why not just change the skill to 5m (or 10m althoug that could be a bit OP) instead of 10 or 20%?. With 5m per level you would get a total of 35m scanradius for specialised scout suit (52m with maxed skills)...
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 148	Posted - 2013.09.27 11:29:00 - [36] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Well you outcome seems reasonable but your start doesn't . So what the reason for suit specialised in passive scanning having a lower value than a normal not specialized light frame? Doesn't make much sense to me... So why not just change the skill to 5m (or 10m althoug that could be a bit OP) instead of 10 or 20%?. With 5m per level you would get a total of 35m scanradius for specialised scout suit (52m with maxed skills)... But honestly I think the whole scout theme does not fit very well to the Gal scout it should be some sort of fast DPS dealer IHMO The reason I chose 20%, instead of a hard number is that everything to do with Scanning (Scan Range, Scan Profile, and Scan Precision) is based off of a percentage. Modules included. 20% doubles the scan radius when maxed out, and so made the most sense to me. As for starting the GalScouts radius at 10m, it's my opinion that the important thing is where they end up, not necessarily where they start. They're Specialists, which means that they can start off low, but end up higher than anyone with a little SP investment. The advantage that GalScouts have is in the Racial Skills given to Suits, not in the suits base stats. And I think all Scouts should be fast DPS dealers. Hence, the Backstab. What scouts are not, is sustained DPS dealers. Giving Scouts the increased Scan Range allows them to choose which fights they enter, and from which direction, hit hard and fast, and then leave again. To me, that falls in perfectly well with the whole "Scout Theme."
ALPHA DECRIPTER M.E.R.C. Conventional Forces League of Infamy 521	Posted - 2013.09.27 21:33:00 - [37] - Quote Hagintora wrote: My thoughts on Passive Scan Radius are thus: Keep the Scan Radius of all Medium and Heavy Frame Suits/Variants at 10m, and increase the radius for all Light Frame Suits, and Non-Gallente Scout Suits, to 15m. Gallente Scouts stay at 10m. Don't yell at me, I'm not done yet. The major change comes in the bonus that the Scan Radius skill gives you. I say increase that to 20% per level, and increase the Gallente Racial bonus for scouts to 20% as well. What you will get in the end is this: Medium and Heavy Frame Suits/Variants - 20m Passive Scan Radius with skill at Level 5. All Light Frame/Non- Gallente Scout Suits - 30m Passive Scan Radius with skill at Level 5. Gallente Scouts - 40m Passive Scan Radius with skill at Level 5, and Racial Bonus at Level 5. This gives all scouts, and the Gallente in particular, a clear advantage in scan range, but also increases the scan range of the other suits as well, making a scouts stealth capabilities meaningful outside of just avoiding the Active Scanner. I like the Backstab idea as well. If the rumors are true, and scouts are going to get cloaking device "SoonTM", then I would tie those two together. When cloaked, a scout gets somewhere between 10-25% damage bonus on the target (at any range), giving the scout an Alpha Strike ability that we currently lack. As soon as we fire though, we become visible and the bonus is then lost until the cooldown is complete and the cloak reactivates. So as long as the scout remains in active combat he does not get the Alpha Strike Bonus. This, combined with the changes in Passive Scan listed above, would make the scout the master of the Hit and Run. Still weak in a sustained fight, but deadly when fighting on our own terms. Sticking the "Back stab" to the cloak actually makes a lot of sense. At the cost of 1m scan you could give the g-scout a starting 15 with a 6%(per level) boost. Should end up with, I think, 39m scan. This was just a compromise to those not liking the G-Scouts base scan being lower then the others. This allows them to start at the same point although the end result will be a little less. `Sigh. Just another fun game of DUST
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 322	Posted - 2013.09.27 22:49:00 - [38] - Quote Making the cloak be our "back stab" bonus is a really good idea (so long as the other suits don't get cloaking) Reminds me of the Mass Effect cloak. Edit: @Hagintora As for the change in passive scan, what's wrong with just bumping all scouts to 20m? This would mean that scouts get 30 (with range extender to 5) and gal scouts get 45. A lvl 5 scout with profile dampening at 5 isn't going to have to worry about mediums and heavies seeing them unless the mediums and heavies stack precision mods, which very very few would be willing to do.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 149	Posted - 2013.09.28 00:44:00 - [39] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: As for the change in passive scan, what's wrong with just bumping all scouts to 20m? This would mean that scouts get 30 (with range extender to 5) and gal scouts get 45. A lvl 5 scout with profile dampening at 5 isn't going to have to worry about mediums and heavies seeing them unless the mediums and heavies stack precision mods, which very very few would be willing to do. And why should scouts be the only ones to receive the buff? Why not give Medium and Heavy Frames more of a chance at higher levels? Or, conversely, why give Medium and Heavy Frames a Scan Radius at all? At 10m (15m when topped out), Scan radius is pretty much useless. Enemies won't pop up until they are already standing next to you, and most of them will have starting shooting you long before that, so why have it? To protect them from Scouts? Scouts whose Profile is so low that they can stand in front of a Proto Scanner and not be detected? Unless we start thinking of ways to include the other suits and classes into the world of Stealth/Detection, all we are going to do is eliminate a role/capability of the scout suit itself. Stealth is boring, if all I have to do to beat an Active Scanner is put on a single Dampening Mod. Stealth is meaningless if all it means is avoiding LOS. Every suit can avoid LOS. You cannot define the Scouts role as being "sneaky" if everyone can be just as effective at sneaking. In the same way that you cannot define the Scouts role as being "fast" if everyone moves at roughly the same speed. In this case, you cannot alter just the Scout without looking at the rest of the Frames/Variants as well. The entire Profile/Scan Radius/Precision dynamic needs to be looked at. To actually make it DYNAMIC!
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 149	Posted - 2013.09.28 00:47:00 - [40] - Quote ALPHA DECRIPTER wrote: At the cost of 1m scan you could give the g-scout a starting 15 with a 6%(per level) boost. Should end up with, I think, 39m scan. This was just a compromise to those not liking the G-Scouts base scan being lower then the others. This allows them to start at the same point although the end result will be a little less. This...is a good compromise.

Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 517	Posted - 2013.09.28 12:06:00 - [41] - Quote Hagintora wrote: ALPHA DECRIPTER wrote: At the cost of 1m scan you could give the g-scout a starting 15 with a 6%(per level) boost. Should end up with, I think, 39m scan. This was just a compromise to those not liking the G-Scouts base scan being lower then the others. This allows them to start at the same point although the end result will be a little less. This...is a good compromise. I don't really like it to be honest. The Gallente as a racial scan bonus should definitely not start with a lower base scan radius than the Minmatar. I realize you've abandoned this idea and I'm glad. Additionally, as a Minmatar they get a 25% bonus to kn / melee damage. So, 25% more effective than the Gallente. Damage wise though since the knives do reasonably high amount of base damage and then even more when charged it is quite a nice perk as that 25% adds up to a lot of extra HP. The Gallente range bonus (40m v.s. 30m for Min in your scenario) is a 33% increase, but a 10m scan range buff isn't really that awesome in terms of real world benefit over 30m.... I think just keep all suits at 10m w/ the exception of scout suits, which move to 20. This gives the Gallente a 15m range bonus over Min when fully skilled (45 v.s 30m), keeps the Min range useful and doesn't seem too wimpy in terms of real-life benefit compared to the OHK knives w/ Min bonus. As for why not buff range for other suits: 1.) They are combat focused, not intel focused. We sacrifice CPU/PG and slots for our scan benefits. 2.) If you buff them you'll have max skilled logis' that can easly run better scouts given the more high slots for precision and lows for range.
Smooth Assassin Stardust incorporation 200	Posted - 2013.09.28 12:38:00 - [42] - Quote Proto galante scout is best for speed with 4 low slots i calculated that they can get 1.00 more speed than a proto minmatar this is stupid and makes minmatar scouts useless apart from the shields but caldari scouts is coming
ALPHA DECRIPTER R 0 N 1 N 542	Posted - 2013.09.28 13:55:00 - [43] - Quote Smooth Assassin wrote: Proto galante scout is best for speed with 4 low slots i calculated that they can get 1.00 more speed than a proto minmatar this is stupid and makes minmatar scouts useless apart from the shields but caldari scouts is coming Sure we COULD be faster but how many scouts would actually speed tank like that when other tactical mods are more fruitful? `Sigh. Just another fun game of DUST.
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 1320	Posted - 2013.09.28 14:02:00 - [44] - Quote Smooth Assassin wrote: Proto galante scout is best for speed with 4 low slots i calculated that they can get 1.00 more speed than a proto minmatar this is stupid and makes minmatar scouts useless apart from the shields but caldari scouts is coming I believe this was addressed in another thread, and yes you are correct. The top speed a Proto Gallente Scout can reach is at or around 11.01 m/s with four Complex KinCats. The ultra-low HP tradeoff for such high sprint spreed, however, doesn't help even slightly in combat or escape from combat. The only time a high-speed Scout loadout comes in handy is at the start of match, rushing an initial objective. Even then, a fast-deployed LAV or Dropship will consistently win the race to a central objective. The fact that speed tanking doesn't work anymore has also be thoroughly tested and discussed. Rest assured that while possible on paper, very few (if any) of your GalScout Brothers are stacking KinCats. Stacking plates or working with a combination of Lows nets substantially higher odds of survival. - Shotty GoBang
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 1320	Posted - 2013.09.28 14:18:00 - [45] - Quote On Scan Radius: Fact - Scout Scan Radius was nerfed to 10m on release of Uprising. Theory - This nerf was designed to encourage Active Scanner use. Observation - Squad Sight changes have boosted Active Scanner use. Prediction - Active Scanners will be commonplace once WP awards are deployed. Thoughts: Scout Scan Radius can now safely be returned to Chromosome standards without any threat to Active Scanner proliferation. This nerf reversal would be of benefit to both races, and would add value to the arguably ineffective Gallente Racial Bonus. - Shotty GoBang
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 294	Posted - 2013.09.28 15:05:00 - [46] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: On Scan Radius: Fact - Scout Scan Radius was nerfed to 10m on release of Uprising. Theory - This nerf was designed to encourage Active Scanner use. Observation - Squad Sight changes have boosted Active Scanner use. Prediction - Active Scanners will be commonplace once WP awards are deployed. Thoughts: Scout Scan Radius can now safely be returned to Chromosome standards without any threat to Active Scanner proliferation. This nerf reversal would be of benefit to both races, and would add value to the arguably ineffective Gallente Racial Bonus. - Shotty GoBang Very strongly agreed. This would be a good start. However, as I've suggested elsewhere, we also need hacked installations to be a little less omniscient to get the proper balance restored, and we need to know what their scan precision is. At present, they seem to detect and publish the location of absolutely anyone within a certain radius.
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 1322	Posted - 2013.09.28 16:49:00 - [47] - Quote Yun Hee Ryeon wrote: We also need hacked installations to be a little less omniscient ... they seem to detect and publish the location of absolutely anyone within a certain radius. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1335534 ^ I've linked to this well-written thread of yours on a few occasions now. Completely agree with your observations and conclusions. Possibly occurring by error rather than by design. Though its hard to say without Dev feedback.
Chilled Pill Pro Hic Immortalis 207	Posted - 2013.09.29 06:33:00 - [48] - Quote Smooth Assassin wrote: Proto galante scout is best for speed with 4 low slots i calculated that they can get 1.00 more speed than a proto minmatar this is stupid and makes minmatar scouts useless apart from the shields but caldari scouts is coming Why do people keep bringing this up?? Why don't you go ahead and put on 4 complex kincats. That way I can call you stupid. Seriously.


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