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The Loathing
The Southern Legion
208
|
Posted - 2013.08.25 01:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm sure this idea will cop some flack, especially from the Planetary Conquest regulars.
But I'd really like to see a Maximum Deployed Uplink Limit introduced to Dust.
I realize Uplink spam has been a fact of the game since PC began, and is an ESSENTIAL TOOL for the PC Elites. (Well, that and Core Locus spam, but that's another topic). But it is a piece of equipment that should be coveted, not throwaway, which makes me think that a limit to active deployed Uplinks per team should be something that needs to be introduced.
If Uplinks were to have a limit, yet were given more hitpoints, I believe they would be treated with more respect, placement of them would actually require thought, and a simple flux nade would not be the ANTI-UPLINK. What's more, the infiltration of an objective would not be met with a team that can just suicide/respawn spam willy-nilly, but actual protection of objectives will need to be coordinated and enforced.
Also, just to tick off the spammer fans more , Teams that have reached their Uplink limit should not be able to lay down a new Uplinks until one of the old Uplinks have gone thru their cycle of respawns. (OK, that might need more thought and discussion, but again it would make players think more about their placement)
I'd really like to hear community feedback on this one as it is a contentious issue, but keep an open mind. Battle tactics always need to be shaken up, and this would truly bring an extra challenge to the elite teams who use each spamming option to winning effect. |
CLONE117
Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore
185
|
Posted - 2013.08.25 01:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
SUPPORT!!!!!!!!!!
im sick of ppl holding objectives simply because they have 50 million uplinks there.. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
140
|
Posted - 2013.08.25 01:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
There are several ways to balance it
1) Only Squad Shared and Reduced WP ---While they will still be spammed, they will be much less useful because the wps totals for them will be lowered and as it stands they are too high. I have Uplinks to level 5, I spam them myself due to the wps invovled, despite the fact that I love using other equipment more (RE and AS). If I can be cut off of my UL wp pool, I would use it less myself. It would also make revives more common as well.
2) Radius Interference --- If there are too many in a given area then you are unable to use any of them, or you could have first dropped priority, though I see too many meta game backstabbing with this method.
3)EWAR --- An equipment that steals the hostile player from their drop uplink to the EWAR equipment if within a certain radius of a drop uplink, or some inhibitor that suppresses them.
4) Your suggestion *Limited number*
I personally favor squad only and spawn wp reduced to 10 as a method to get people to leave ULs with EWAR counters. |
emtbraincase
Falconpunch Hatesurfers
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.25 01:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
This is a bad idea, and you should feel bad.
But seriously, I love seeing a Domination map completely blue, brings a smile to my face. Usually because DL spam hides my secret obsession and amusement.
Here's a hint about what it is: It rhymes with Nanohive Pyramid Stacking
Honest, if you are in a terribly one-sided Domination, and you see a pyramid about 3-5 nanohives tall, I'm likely in your match. |
The Loathing
The Southern Legion
208
|
Posted - 2013.08.25 01:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:There are several ways to balance it
1) Only Squad Shared and Reduced WP ---While they will still be spammed, they will be much less useful because the wps totals for them will be lowered and as it stands they are too high. I have Uplinks to level 5, I spam them myself due to the wps invovled, despite the fact that I love using other equipment more (RE and AS). If I can be cut off of my UL wp pool, I would use it less myself. It would also make revives more common as well.
An interesting suggestion, but doesn't deal with the throwaway aspect of the equipment, which is where I reckon the problem lies. I don't really care about the WP aspect of them in an organised match, just the ability to fill the area with respawning teammates. But if I had to consider where I put them then it would be a much more important task than just throw and run. However, in pub matches this suggestion may have more application.
Oswald Rehnquist wrote: 2) Radius Interference --- If there are too many in a given area then you are unable to use any of them, or you could have first dropped priority, though I see too many meta game backstabbing with this method.
I actually think this is a pretty awesome suggestion. It has its flaws, but honestly it creates a fair situation that makes Uplink bunching (which is probably the most OP thing about Uplink spamming) null and void. Another way to make you defend your Uplinks.
Oswald Rehnquist wrote: 3)EWAR --- An equipment that steals the hostile player from their drop uplink to the EWAR equipment if within a certain radius of a drop uplink, or some inhibitor that suppresses them.
Hmm, the player stealing may be a little over-convoluted and could definitely get exploited at some point. A cool idea nonetheless. The inhibitor is another awesome suggestion IMO. It creates an environment where the enemy NEEDS to get rid of the Inhibitor to continue their constant presence at the objective. Just another cool factor to shake things up.
|
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1622
|
Posted - 2013.08.25 03:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
The Loathing wrote:I'm sure this idea will cop some flack, especially from the Planetary Conquest regulars.
But I'd really like to see a Maximum Deployed Uplink Limit introduced to Dust.
I realize Uplink spam has been a fact of the game since PC began, and is an ESSENTIAL TOOL for the PC Elites. (Well, that and Core Locus spam, but that's another topic). But it is a piece of equipment that should be coveted, not throwaway, which makes me think that a limit to active deployed Uplinks per team should be something that needs to be introduced. Why? Seriously, explain to me how this is warranted. Is their SP cost too low? Their ISK cost? Their CPU/PG cost? How is this called for within the context of the game. The AR is exceptionally, it can equally be referred to as an essential tool and yet there are still frequent instances of players rocking Proto ARs zerging objectives and hostile positions, shall we have an AR limit, say 8 per team?
Quote:If Uplinks were to have a limit, yet were given more hitpoints, I believe they would be treated with more respect, placement of them would actually require thought, and a simple flux nade would not be the ANTI-UPLINK. What's more, the infiltration of an objective would not be met with a team that can just suicide/respawn spam willy-nilly, but actual protection of objectives will need to be coordinated and enforced. Uplinks used to be placed with care, until their profile on NACNET was broken during the Uprising patch making them stand out everywhere on the map, hence causing the spam. They have been the same equipment since closed beta and this behavior started within Uprising the causal link is pretty solid. Furthermore making uplinks more durable wouldn't grant any benefit behind allowing them to be camped more often when hostile forces sweep an area. Yes it will take more to wipe them (if we completely ignore the use of a flux, unless you're talking a factor of magnitude increase the flux will still take them out) and yes you can still spawn in, but that doesn't mean you'll have any chance at fighting when hostile force know exactly where that link is.
Quote:Also, just to tick off the spammer fans more , Teams that have reached their Uplink limit should not be able to lay down a new Uplinks until one of the old Uplinks have gone thru their cycle of respawns. (OK, that might need more thought and discussion, but again it would make players think more about their placement) I'd really like to hear community feedback on this one as it is a contentious issue, but keep an open mind. Battle tactics always need to be shaken up, and this would truly bring an extra challenge to the elite teams who use each spamming option to winning effect.
This is a nerf to support play, a nerf to uplinks, and a nerf based on out of context assessments. It makes as much, and the same kind, of sense as limiting the number of ARs (or other specific weapon types) which can be active on the field at one time.
0.02 ISK Cross
PS ~ My above questions are not to be taken as rhetorical, I really do want you to describe in detail why and how the current mechanics of an uplink are imbalanced or problematic. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
140
|
Posted - 2013.08.25 04:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:
This is a nerf to support play, a nerf to uplinks, and a nerf based on out of context assessments. It makes as much, and the same kind, of sense as limiting the number of ARs (or other specific weapon types) which can be active on the field at one time.
0.02 ISK Cross
PS ~ My above questions are not to be taken as rhetorical, I really do want you to describe in detail why and how the current mechanics of an uplink are imbalanced or problematic.
Uplinks are the ARs of the equipment world with nano hives as the mass drivers, they vastly overshadow the other equipment options with wp potential and utility, this is my main concern, what the op is concerned with is that pc is literally decided who can drop the first 15-30 uplinks in the good spot first, since uplink spam severely limits hostiles from being pushed back or routed.
Again I think Wp should be reduced to 10, should be squad based usage only, I think we should get EWAR to counter them. I have level 5 in uplinks and I"m not proud of that, but it is really that good though. |
The Loathing
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
210
|
Posted - 2013.08.25 14:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote: Why? Seriously, explain to me how this is warranted. Is their SP cost too low? Their ISK cost? Their CPU/PG cost? How is this called for within the context of the game. The AR is exceptionally, it can equally be referred to as an essential tool and yet there are still frequent instances of players rocking Proto ARs zerging objectives and hostile positions, shall we have an AR limit, say 8 per team?
Happy to. No, their SP cost is not too low. Neither is their ISK cost or PG/CPU cost. Cost plays NO factor to the point of my post. The factor I see as a potential problem was perfectly explained by Oswald in the last post. The first team to lay their 15-30 Proto Uplinks down has a vast advantage throughout the entire match over the nearby objective. Instead of maintaining defense of an area with denial and protection of equipment, all it takes is 3 second consistent respawns to continue the headache. That means that TOO much time (IMHO) is spent chasing down Uplinks for removal instead of hacking the objective and setting up a defensive position.
What's more, CRUs are just a joke now because Uplinks have made them a liability instead of an installation to utilize.
I really have no idea how you can bring ARs into the discussion because they ARE limited. A maximum of 16 can be used on a team (unless they are bat-crap crazy and bring Commandos to PC). There is no comparison because the potential number of Uplinks on the ground is beyond manageable. And no amount of flux's solve the issue because it's about the time needed to chase every single Uplink put into place.
Cross Atu wrote: Uplinks used to be placed with care, until their profile on NACNET was broken during the Uprising patch making them stand out everywhere on the map, hence causing the spam. They have been the same equipment since closed beta and this behavior started within Uprising the causal link is pretty solid. Furthermore making uplinks more durable wouldn't grant any benefit behind allowing them to be camped more often when hostile forces sweep an area. Yes it will take more to wipe them (if we completely ignore the use of a flux, unless you're talking a factor of magnitude increase the flux will still take them out) and yes you can still spawn in, but that doesn't mean you'll have any chance at fighting when hostile force know exactly where that link is.
You raise a good point. The ease of locating Uplinks should also be investigated, but at their current spam ability it SHOULD be the way it is. But if limited number of Uplinks were dropped, then I would be in favour of a Scanner or direct line of sight as the only locater option.
And I can't see the problem if an enemy locates the Uplink that it gets camped if not destroyed. That's part of the risk. It's easy mode spawn in. It SHOULD have its draw backs because you are no longer required to fight your way back into the objective.
Cross Atu wrote: This is a nerf to support play, a nerf to uplinks, and a nerf based on out of context assessments. It makes as much, and the same kind, of sense as limiting the number of ARs (or other specific weapon types) which can be active on the field at one time.
I'm sorry, but I can't actually see the logic in the AR argument. And to say my suggestion is a nerf to support play is the "out of context assessment" here. If anything this would PROMOTE support play on so many other levels. No longer could a team rely heavily on their Uplink spam, but instead on their teammates having their back and providing support from other equipment such as "Healy Hives" and Injectors.
I'm very much for tactic variety, but currently there is one tactic that seems to outbid the rest: Bring Your Best Uplinks. |
Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
184
|
Posted - 2013.08.25 15:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Not going to lie, when I first noticed the little indicator at the top left of the spawn screen that tells you how many people are playing a match (the one that looks like the uplink symbol with the amount of players on your team underneath it) I thought that was how many uplinks your team could place......so why can't it be 1 uplink/player? |
The Loathing
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
213
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 01:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Fire of Prometheus wrote:Not going to lie, when I first noticed the little indicator at the top left of the spawn screen that tells you how many people are playing a match (the one that looks like the uplink symbol with the amount of players on your team underneath it) I thought that was how many uplinks your team could place......so why can't it be 1 uplink/player?
That could be a possibility. It would encourage team members to specialize as the Uplink dropper, whereas other logis or assaults can run Hives and Injectors, or scanners if they were the best tool to locate Uplinks. |
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
72
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 02:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fire of Prometheus wrote:Not going to lie, when I first noticed the little indicator at the top left of the spawn screen that tells you how many people are playing a match (the one that looks like the uplink symbol with the amount of players on your team underneath it) I thought that was how many uplinks your team could place......so why can't it be 1 uplink/player?
As an uplink specialist (using strategery, not just blanket spamming, thank u) I could almost get behind this I guess, provided it doesn't mean we can literally only place 1 each, but, 16 total from whoever. Be nice if there was a way to prioritize good links lest I start rage quitting when blueberries litter the place with militia links and lock me out! |
The Loathing
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
213
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 02:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:
As an uplink specialist (using strategery, not just blanket spamming, thank u) I could almost get behind this I guess, provided it doesn't mean we can literally only place 1 each, but, 16 total from whoever. Be nice if there was a way to prioritize good links lest I start rage quitting when blueberries litter the place with militia links and lock me out!
Yeah, agreed. Honestly, the limit would serve PC and FW better than pub matches anyhow. Spam doesn't seem to be as across the board there, unless each team is full of organized squads. So you wouldn't need to worry about crappy militia links getting priority in PC. |
shady merc
RisingSuns
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 02:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Agreed it needs to be looked into. Here are some ideas.
Make the droplink skill increase the number of active links you can have. every can have one active droplink without skills (this is for the milita droplink) then the drop link skill increase this by one a level. At drop link 5 you max out with 6 total active.
give droplinks a spawn time penatly for being to close to another drop link.
ewar grenade that only effects equipment letting you clear out a cluster of them faster this would promote smarter deployment of droplinks.
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
259
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 03:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
shady merc wrote:Make the droplink skill increase the number of active links you can have. every can have one active droplink without skills (this is for the milita droplink) then the drop link skill increase this by one a level. At drop link 5 you max out with 6 total active.
This is a tangential issue with all equipment. The more types there are, the easier it is to get around the max_deployed limit.
I still prefer a team cap on uplinks rather than a per-player cap in this case, because even three uplinks per person would be too open to abuse by a team with PC-level skill points. |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
722
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 05:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Radius limit
You place uplink.
Now you have to go 30 meters before you can place another one. Bam.
You can't have thick clusters of uplinks, or the spam of objectives.
That and reducing the scan profiles of the things. It was the main thing that started this problem, but since people have realized how useful just spamming the obby with em, and keeping it in permanent contestment. |
I-Shayz-I
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
698
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 09:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
There wouldn't be uplink spam in the first place if you could easily hid them on the map without them shining brightly on the radar for the whole enemy team to see.
Best solution is to make them less detectable, and make uplinks limited to the player, not the team. For instance, you should only be allowed to drop 3 uplinks no matter how many different kinds you have. Currently, the max is 9 (3 from guaged, 2 from each of the other advanced/proto uplinks). If you try and drop more than 3 uplinks, the oldest ones are destroyed. |
Seymor Krelborn
DUST University Ivy League
622
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 09:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
this idea has been suggested before.... I believe my corps educational director made a thread on uplink limits.
I would support this as well, but since they are so easy for the enemy to spot, that would also have to be fixed.
it used to be a link was only visable to the enemy for a short time after someone spawned there, and if you missed that chance to destroy it , it would disappear till another merc spawned.
with that system I would support a limit. |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
220
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 10:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
I can get behind this but it feels like the easy way out.
I really like the radius idea as the "interference" really provides a solid lore background without killing use.
Also am a fan of spawn "scramblers/inhibitors." Something that delays respawn with a large radius. Love EWAR as it completely puts the counter in our hands verse artificial restrictions.
If you implemented I think you could make uplinks stand out much less than now. If I cannot find your uplinks to destroy them then I just drop a spawn scrambler to slow your respawns while I hunt them down. |
The Loathing
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
218
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 11:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:I can get behind this but it feels like the easy way out.
I really like the radius idea as the "interference" really provides a solid lore background without killing use.
Also am a fan of spawn "scramblers/inhibitors." Something that delays respawn with a large radius. Love EWAR as it completely puts the counter in our hands verse artificial restrictions.
If you implemented I think you could make uplinks stand out much less than now. If I cannot find your uplinks to destroy them then I just drop a spawn scrambler to slow your respawns while I hunt them down.
Yeah hearing this suggestion numerous times now and liking it. An inhibitor nullifies the Proto Uplink headache, but still requires the team to be equipped and organized to install the inhibitor. 3 secs for most of the Uplinks in the spammed area is too fast for realistic clearing of Uplinks. I'm not suggesting a spawn in time reduction, that's what makes Proto worthwhile. But give us the ability to nullify its bonus, or reduce the amounts of them altogether.
Honestly I feel less Uplinks, but with less visibility makes it a more effective piece of equipment, but can't be over-used to the point of un-manageable. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
138
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 12:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
Limiting the uplink count is a bad idea, and actually a very ineffective idea if you take time to think about it.
Firstly, any limit that could theoretically be reached by a single player (the max uplinks a single player can lay out is 25) could lead to potential abuse/AWOXing of your team. Not to mention it would also lead to uplink competition and hogging of warpoints by one player.
Secondly, any cap above 25 uplinks might as well not be a cap at all, since the max spawns I see in any pub match is rarely over 25, due to the law of diminishing returns.
Take a look at the first situation. In this case, a point-greedy player (like me) would lay out uplinks right after spawning in, and with the help of the supply depot, I could lay out the max number of uplinks possible up to 25. These uplinks would be in the redline, so chances are they would not be destroyed by enemies, and my team would have the choice of either spawning on the normal redline spawns, using my fast uplinks and giving me points, or capturing a CRU (good luck when you don't have uplinks to keep mercs consistently in the battle). In the most probable situation, our team would be redlined and lose because they could not get a foothold on the field. Additionally, those players who had intended to put down uplinks in tactically useful areas now cannot use their equipment, and that represents an unwarranted loss of ISK if they die (unwarranted because they were barred from using their equipment due to the actions of another player).
In the second point, it's very rare to see more than 25 uplinks active in a pub match. For pubs at least, domination seems to be the game mode that suffers from the most uplink spam because you can't spawn in on the point, and people rarely spam uplinks in Skirmish outside of PC because most people use the point to spawn in. However, if there is already a huge mass of 20 or more uplinks in tactical places, then there is often little use in dropping down more simply because the likelihood of the enemy eliminating them all is low, and the points to be gained by dropping them will be limited because of the huge number of spawns to choose from. |
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1634
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 14:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
The TACNET issue is DIRECTLY linked to Uplink spam. The ability for team, note team not squad, mates to spawn on a link is based on their ability to "see" that link via TACNET (at least that was the mechanic prior to Uprising and there's been no note of a change).
So the bug to profile via TACNET is the key to the spam. Not only does it make spamming required if you're going to get a link in place and actually be able to use it but it also makes spamming more valuable because now the whole team can use that uplink not just members of your squad.
Having addressed that lets move on to cost. The statement, "Cost plays NO factor to the point of my post." is in fact the problem. In a resource based game cost is always a part of the equation and to ignore it is simply flawed. Uplinks are expensive, in ISK, in SP, and in CPU/PG. Most players/organized teams will not spend the resources to spam unlinks the way we see now once the TACNET bug is resolved because other options will become comparatively more valuable. In Chrome uplinks were not spammed, and nanos despite there high use were spammed less. Then Uprising hits and there's a lot more spam. This is due to the TACNET bug (uplinks) and the myriad of Injector and Repair Tool issues (nanohives). With repair and revival hobbled, and tactical placement of uplinks a joke, of course spaming uplinks is common place and one of the most effective tactics, the alternatives have been crippled.
The point about ARs, or any other weapon/gear, is that they have value and that said value is measured in more than one way, but it all reverts to the risk vs reward dynamic. Having a piece of gear, weapon or otherwise, that you have spent ISK, SP, CPU/PG on, have paied the "risk" for and now are blocked from gaining any potential rewards from is breaking the fundamental paradigm of the game. A limit like this is just like a limit on how many ARs (or other weapon) can be active in a game because it has the same effect on the investment of Mercs set up to use it. It's even more onerous than the vehicle limit because you won't know your high cost assets are useless and your risk is worthless (but still costly) until after you hit the field.
As to the comparison of CRUs and links, the "more HP + limit" method makes links CRUs that players pay for. CRUs have been being popped and/or camped since closed beta and on average vets (at least all those I run with) won't use them unless the area they are in is completely secure. The general assessment is that they're not tactically viable enough to be worth using and so are destroyed more often that not. This was true prior to Uprising and the advent of Uplink spam and making uplinks just as useless will not improve the situation.
Your suggestion is a direct nerf to support play because it is directly nerfing the possible utility and WP value of one of the few bits of support gear in the game. There aren't that many items in Dust which are not directly "I kill you" or "I don't die quickly, so I kill you". Currently uplinks, injectors, and repair tools are all quite broken (i.e. suffer from substantial bugs) it just so happens that the bugs/ways in which uplinks are broken allow them to still have use value if spammed.
The bugs should be fixed, the game should not be rebalanced to accommodate the presence of the bugs.
0.02 ISK Cross
PS ~ Another element of cost which is being overlooked here is the cost of clones when speaking of PC matches. The "we'll just zerg them to death via uplinks" method is a costly one when clones carry an ISK cost. Other methods will become more valuable when other methods become more functional, and those who don't see it will hemorrhage money to their ultimate detriment. |
XxGhazbaranxX
Bannana Boat Corp
300
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 14:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
There is just no limit to the sort of crazy nerfs people ask for. Faith in the dust community LOST. |
Vespasian Andendare
Subsonic Synthesis Alpha Wolf Pack
161
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 15:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
Have to agree with what Cross Atu stated above. Besides, arbitrary limits on this, or worse, radius limits would just hinder game play above all else. Imagine if you could only have 1 uplink within 30m. Well, that's awesome for the enemy. They know you'll have a single spawn point (they can camp) once they find it. People can trickle in and get owned by the opposing team. So, no, this doesn't make any sense.
The main thing, though--and you even stated this in your OP--is that there are counters for them! If you're tired up uplink spam, bring more flux grenades to the party and clear them out. It's really not that difficult to get rid of them with flux grenades, and this point alone is why there doesn't need to be arbitrary limits on them. As long as there's a paper-rock-scissor counter to (ANY) thing in the game, then "nerf/buff" doesn't make any sense. It's time to exercise tactics.
I will grant you that the bug that allows any teammate to spawn (outside of using a hacked uplink) needs to be fixed. It would stop a lot of the issues that have popped up, but beyond restoring the uplinks to "working as intended," no other real, meaningful changes are needed.
TL;DR-- Use tactics to counter them. Stop crying for nerfs. |
Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
188
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 15:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Fire of Prometheus wrote:Not going to lie, when I first noticed the little indicator at the top left of the spawn screen that tells you how many people are playing a match (the one that looks like the uplink symbol with the amount of players on your team underneath it) I thought that was how many uplinks your team could place......so why can't it be 1 uplink/player? As an uplink specialist (using strategery, not just blanket spamming, thank u) I could almost get behind this I guess, provided it doesn't mean we can literally only place 1 each, but, 16 total from whoever. Be nice if there was a way to prioritize good links lest I start rage quitting when blueberries litter the place with militia links and lock me out! Yes I thought it meant 16 total, not 1 per player. Eg. I could toss down 3 uplinks |
HAICD
Dogs of War Gaming DARKSTAR ARMY
31
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 17:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
I agree the most any one player should be able to place is 3 it should not matter if they place different types of uplinks just 3 active uplinks per player. But I would like to see a stealth uplink only found by using a scanner make it proto type and you are only aloud to have one active at one time. |
SirManBoy
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
158
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 19:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
Hell no, OP. Uplink and nanohive spamming is one of the arts of war in Dust. It is highly strategic and totally meant to keep the pressure on an objective. You play your way and I'll play mine, bud. |
SirManBoy
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
158
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 19:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
HAICD wrote:I agree the most any one player should be able to place is 3 it should not matter if they place different types of uplinks just 3 active uplinks per player. But I would like to see a stealth uplink only found by using a scanner make it proto type and you are only aloud to have one active at one time.
3?! GTFO! Are you even a logi, bro? Your suggestion takes a giant dump on support play. |
Vespasian Andendare
Subsonic Synthesis Alpha Wolf Pack
167
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 19:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:Hell no, OP. Uplink and nanohive spamming is one of the arts of war in Dust. It is highly strategic and totally meant to keep the pressure on an objective. You play your way and I'll play mine, bud. Totally agree. Plus, I've seen checkpoints that were utterly littered with enemy uplinks, yet we managed to push through and cap the objective. It's so satisfying seeing how well fortified the enemy team is there and then we come through and bust up the show.
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HAICD
Dogs of War Gaming DARKSTAR ARMY
31
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 20:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
Look with 3 per player that is still 48 uplinks on a single map (per side)that's pently. If the uplinks were hidden or just a lot harder to find you would not have to spam the whole map with uplinks. |
SirManBoy
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
159
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 22:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
HAICD wrote:Look with 3 per player that is still 48 uplinks on a single map (per side)that's pently. If the uplinks were hidden or just a lot harder to find you would not have to spam the whole map with uplinks.
No, your limit is arbitrary and does not account for my specific skill set. I am a logi with L5 hives and uplinks. My team should reap the additional benefits of having me and my abilities on the battlefield. Your suggestion would make me just another guy with a 3 uplink limit. Screw that, bud. I am one of the logi beasts of this game and I will express myself how I see fit. Stop trying to take specialization and support expertise out of the game. If you want to be just another cookie cutter AR guy then good for you, but I choose to be a logi God dispersing more goodies than a methed out Santa Clause. You be the player you want to be and I'll be the player I want to be. K? Thanks. |
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The Loathing
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
219
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 01:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:Hell no, OP. Uplink and nanohive spamming is one of the arts of war in Dust. It is highly strategic and totally meant to keep the pressure on an objective. You play your way and I'll play mine, bud.
Yeah, no. It is not highly strategic. It's spam.
But yes it puts pressure on an objective from a defensive point of view. It would seem I play the same way you do because I spam Uplinks also. But it doesn't necessarily mean that the spam is a balanced part of the game. It's necessary due to the detection, but it's not balanced.
Despite the fact the thread is named Uplink Limits does not necessarily mean the discussion requires to be limited to that as the only solution. Personally, hearing the "inhibitor" idea has made me think laterally on the matter. Limits is but one suggestion. |
ritslight umarn
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
31
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 01:48:00 -
[32] - Quote
The Loathing wrote:I'm sure this idea will cop some flack, especially from the Planetary Conquest regulars. But I'd really like to see a Maximum Deployed Uplink Limit introduced to Dust. I realize Uplink spam has been a fact of the game since PC began, and is an ESSENTIAL TOOL for the PC Elites. (Well, that and Core Locus spam, but that's another topic). But it is a piece of equipment that should be coveted, not throwaway, which makes me think that a limit to active deployed Uplinks per team should be something that needs to be introduced. If Uplinks were to have a limit, yet were given more hitpoints, I believe they would be treated with more respect, placement of them would actually require thought, and a simple flux nade would not be the ANTI-UPLINK. What's more, the infiltration of an objective would not be met with a team that can just suicide/respawn spam willy-nilly, but actual protection of objectives will need to be coordinated and enforced. Also, just to tick off the spammer fans more , Teams that have reached their Uplink limit should not be able to lay down a new Uplinks until one of the old Uplinks have gone thru their cycle of respawns. (OK, that might need more thought and discussion, but again it would make players think more about their placement) I'd really like to hear community feedback on this one as it is a contentious issue, but keep an open mind. Battle tactics always need to be shaken up, and this would truly bring an extra challenge to the elite teams who use each spamming option to winning effect. There is a limit you can only have 16 on the filed at the same time bassicly 1 per player, people who have said 20 or more are well over exaggerating on it... just saying |
SirManBoy
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
160
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 01:59:00 -
[33] - Quote
ritslight umarn wrote:The Loathing wrote:I'm sure this idea will cop some flack, especially from the Planetary Conquest regulars. But I'd really like to see a Maximum Deployed Uplink Limit introduced to Dust. I realize Uplink spam has been a fact of the game since PC began, and is an ESSENTIAL TOOL for the PC Elites. (Well, that and Core Locus spam, but that's another topic). But it is a piece of equipment that should be coveted, not throwaway, which makes me think that a limit to active deployed Uplinks per team should be something that needs to be introduced. If Uplinks were to have a limit, yet were given more hitpoints, I believe they would be treated with more respect, placement of them would actually require thought, and a simple flux nade would not be the ANTI-UPLINK. What's more, the infiltration of an objective would not be met with a team that can just suicide/respawn spam willy-nilly, but actual protection of objectives will need to be coordinated and enforced. Also, just to tick off the spammer fans more , Teams that have reached their Uplink limit should not be able to lay down a new Uplinks until one of the old Uplinks have gone thru their cycle of respawns. (OK, that might need more thought and discussion, but again it would make players think more about their placement) I'd really like to hear community feedback on this one as it is a contentious issue, but keep an open mind. Battle tactics always need to be shaken up, and this would truly bring an extra challenge to the elite teams who use each spamming option to winning effect. There is a limit you can only have 16 on the filed at the same time bassicly 1 per player, people who have said 20 or more are well over exaggerating on it... just saying
Wrong. While I typically only aim to deploy all 13 of my proto uplinks, I have experimented with deploying 20+ in total in the past. Regardless, keep your nerf-happy ass away from my uplink capabilities. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1646
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 03:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
Reiterating that everything in my post #21 remains true. |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
73
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 03:46:00 -
[35] - Quote
HAICD wrote:Look with 3 per player that is still 48 uplinks on a single map (per side)that's pently. If the uplinks were hidden or just a lot harder to find you would not have to spam the whole map with uplinks.
Off all the solutions to the "problem" that is questionable to begin with, this is the most idiotic. If I can only drop 3 links, why am I going to skill into them? Why am I going to spend my time, energy, ISK, and WP to be the person dedicated to a very valuable strategic role? Answer: I won't.
Good job, you just turned this into another generic FPS where nobody does anything but run around with ARs and shoot each other mindlessly. I can see a point to (reasonable) team caps, and I absolutely LOVE the idea of countermeasures like jammers that add another layer to the game, but if you want to just cripple anyone who doesn't play assault, go find another game that better suits your needs. Leave ours alone. |
P-A-R-A-D-O-X
A-S-S-A-S-S-I-N
27
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 16:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
The Loathing wrote:I'm sure this idea will cop some flack, especially from the Planetary Conquest regulars. But I'd really like to see a Maximum Deployed Uplink Limit introduced to Dust. I realize Uplink spam has been a fact of the game since PC began, and is an ESSENTIAL TOOL for the PC Elites. (Well, that and Core Locus spam, but that's another topic). But it is a piece of equipment that should be coveted, not throwaway, which makes me think that a limit to active deployed Uplinks per team should be something that needs to be introduced. If Uplinks were to have a limit, yet were given more hitpoints, I believe they would be treated with more respect, placement of them would actually require thought, and a simple flux nade would not be the ANTI-UPLINK. What's more, the infiltration of an objective would not be met with a team that can just suicide/respawn spam willy-nilly, but actual protection of objectives will need to be coordinated and enforced. Also, just to tick off the spammer fans more , Teams that have reached their Uplink limit should not be able to lay down a new Uplinks until one of the old Uplinks have gone thru their cycle of respawns. (OK, that might need more thought and discussion, but again it would make players think more about their placement) I'd really like to hear community feedback on this one as it is a contentious issue, but keep an open mind. Battle tactics always need to be shaken up, and this would truly bring an extra challenge to the elite teams who use each spamming option to winning effect.
NOOO...
Leave the Drop Uplink system as is...
You have the ability to see where they all are, use flux grenades to destroy them & if they are plentiful you'll be able to destroy multiple units easily with said grenade...
There is no sensible reason to try to sabotage strategically placed back up Drop uplink use here on the forums just because you yourself don't use them or can't figure out how to deal with it - adapt... -.-
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
1689
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 17:45:00 -
[37] - Quote
Taken from another thread.
Cross Atu wrote:Injectors and Repair Tools were already in need of some love when compared with other equipment and these changes have hit them yet again. Even leaving aside my long standing comments about the scaling of the WP awards for equipment the mechanical aspects effecting the Injector and Repair Tool, both bug and some of the "as intended", render them nearly useless for high level play.
There are some on these forums who like to complain about the heavy level of uplink use.... well give us back functional ways to keep our teams in fighting form without respawning and those uplinks won't be so pervasively required for effective play.
0.02 ISK Cross Also my post #21 still remains relevant.
CCP are you listening here? "Symptomatic medicine" is bad practice even in game design, that's how you kill the fun. Especially in a sandbox if there's undesirable behavior address the macro level concerns first, going straight to a micro level mechanical limit simply diminishes play and limits creativity. It also, in ignoring the source of the behavior, generally compounds the problem by putting up a roadblock rather than providing a resolution.
0.02 ISK ~Cross
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Rogatien Merc
Red Star. EoN.
1119
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:22:00 -
[38] - Quote
As a full proto spam-11-uplinks-at-a-time-in-PC dude... fully support this. There needs to be an opportunity cost associated with placement of critical equipment (i.e. over HERE not over THERE) and there currently is none (uplink here AND there).
This would not be a nerf to logis. This would be a nerf to mindless link spam. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
186
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
If uplink spam is mindless then it's just that much easier to destroy them with AOE weapons - fluxes, grenades, MDs, etc.
Uplinks are fine as is. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
2057
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:44:00 -
[40] - Quote
I'm disheartened by the tendency to call for nerfs and limitations that reduce game complexity rather than increase our options.
Limit this, cut out that, prevent uplink deployment to three per merc, limit MD magazines to one round, etc..
Soon the only loadout will be the AR and a Nano-hive.
Loads of fun... |
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The Loathing
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
231
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 08:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
Skihids wrote:I'm disheartened by the tendency to call for nerfs and limitations that reduce game complexity rather than increase our options.
Limit this, cut out that, prevent uplink deployment to three per merc, limit MD magazines to one round, etc..
Soon the only loadout will be the AR and a Nano-hive.
Loads of fun...
I think the only problem though is that Uplink spam is no longer game complexity. I certainly don't think that a nerf of actual Uplink ABILITIES is called for. In fact I believe they should be harder to find and should not be instantaneously taken out with a grenade. Maybe even faster spawn in times is not unreasonable.
But spamming an objective with spawn points is unheard of in other shooters because it creates a one-sided objective possession. Point defense should be about knuckling under and protecting/reviving your team mates, not throwing yourself at the enemy then respawning right there again in 3-5 seconds.
If you lose the point, then your tactic needs to shift from defense to infiltration or attack. Personally I think that adds a far greater complexity to the game.
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
1695
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 18:43:00 -
[42] - Quote
The Loathing wrote:Skihids wrote:I'm disheartened by the tendency to call for nerfs and limitations that reduce game complexity rather than increase our options.
Limit this, cut out that, prevent uplink deployment to three per merc, limit MD magazines to one round, etc..
Soon the only loadout will be the AR and a Nano-hive.
Loads of fun... [sic]Point defense should be about knuckling under and protecting/reviving your team mates, not throwing yourself at the enemy then respawning right there again in 3-5 seconds. Which as I keep pointing out would actually happen more often, in fact it used to happen more often, if the revival and repair systems were fixed and polished.
Currently the injector is still suffering from many mechanical limitations; it's slow, it's rewards don't scale properly, it often requires more than one activation cycle to actually revive, and Mercs are consistently "over killed" or "insta-bled" preventing any chance of revive.
The repair situation is only marginally better. Repair rates are universally much lower than incoming dps making most repairs of minimal use except between bouts of fighting. Repairs require the Repair Tool to be held, preventing things like shooting back or use of active scans, and to top it all off the WP earnings from repair tools are not only improperly scaled but also capped and the cap is not specifically and clearly explained on the forums much less within the actual game. The UI feedback for repair tools is poor, and when it comes to the cap it is totally absent, on top of which there are targeting and lock on bugs for the repair tools.
I could go on but the simple fact of the matter is that we don't need to alter uplinks, we need to make the other equipment more functional so that the in match meta changes.
Uplinks are costly items in SP, PG, CPU and ISK. Once we have [u[working alternatives[/u] Mercs won't spam them the way they do now, and frankly the Mercs who do still spam them will be at a disadvantage and at least in competitive games will pay the price.
Adding more restrictions to prevent people from using one of the few bits of equipment that isn't suffering from multiple significant issues is NOT the proper solution it's just a way to weaken the game.
TL;DR - Fix all the broken things about equipment then collect metrics on use before considering alterations to one of the few bits of equipment that's currently worthwhile.
0.02 ISK Cross |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster
2060
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 19:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
Drop Uplinks have been "spammed" ever since they were created. I recall losing a corp battle on Manus Peak back in early Precursor to a corp that dropped several around an objective that resembled point A on the current map.
Mobile spawn points change the game completely whether there is one or a dozen. One or two would suffice when the two R's were working and they weren't so easy to spot. The additional usage is driven by the factors you mention, but the fact is that allowing spawns on or near an objective makes it nearly impregnable. You can't slowly whittle down the defending force. It requires an overwhelming force, preferably an OB followed by a large zerg.
Likewise uplinks have killed the dropship transport business before it even got started. Cars and busses would die out today if teleportation were invented and DUST is no different.
I see this as an issue of allowing mobile and objective spawns at all.
If you do, don't quibble about their number. The number will self adjust to produce the same result taking into account the rest of the game mechanics. What won't change is that they will allow an uncuttable reinforcement supply line. |
Jadu Wen
Xer Cloud Consortium
14
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 13:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
You should check out this thread on Using Radiation Zones to Curtail Drop Uplink Use. I think it's a novel way to recondition but not force players to discontinue uplink spam of objectives. Plus it creates a system for highly dynamic play. |
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