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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1622
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Posted - 2013.08.25 03:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
The Loathing wrote:I'm sure this idea will cop some flack, especially from the Planetary Conquest regulars.
But I'd really like to see a Maximum Deployed Uplink Limit introduced to Dust.
I realize Uplink spam has been a fact of the game since PC began, and is an ESSENTIAL TOOL for the PC Elites. (Well, that and Core Locus spam, but that's another topic). But it is a piece of equipment that should be coveted, not throwaway, which makes me think that a limit to active deployed Uplinks per team should be something that needs to be introduced.
Why? Seriously, explain to me how this is warranted. Is their SP cost too low? Their ISK cost? Their CPU/PG cost?
How is this called for within the context of the game. The AR is exceptionally, it can equally be referred to as an essential tool and yet there are still frequent instances of players rocking Proto ARs zerging objectives and hostile positions, shall we have an AR limit, say 8 per team?
Quote:If Uplinks were to have a limit, yet were given more hitpoints, I believe they would be treated with more respect, placement of them would actually require thought, and a simple flux nade would not be the ANTI-UPLINK. What's more, the infiltration of an objective would not be met with a team that can just suicide/respawn spam willy-nilly, but actual protection of objectives will need to be coordinated and enforced.
Uplinks used to be placed with care, until their profile on NACNET was broken during the Uprising patch making them stand out everywhere on the map, hence causing the spam. They have been the same equipment since closed beta and this behavior started within Uprising the causal link is pretty solid. Furthermore making uplinks more durable wouldn't grant any benefit behind allowing them to be camped more often when hostile forces sweep an area. Yes it will take more to wipe them (if we completely ignore the use of a flux, unless you're talking a factor of magnitude increase the flux will still take them out) and yes you can still spawn in, but that doesn't mean you'll have any chance at fighting when hostile force know exactly where that link is.
Quote:Also, just to tick off the spammer fans more  , Teams that have reached their Uplink limit should not be able to lay down a new Uplinks until one of the old Uplinks have gone thru their cycle of respawns. (OK, that might need more thought and discussion, but again it would make players think more about their placement) I'd really like to hear community feedback on this one as it is a contentious issue, but keep an open mind. Battle tactics always need to be shaken up, and this would truly bring an extra challenge to the elite teams who use each spamming option to winning effect.
This is a nerf to support play, a nerf to uplinks, and a nerf based on out of context assessments.
It makes as much, and the same kind, of sense as limiting the number of ARs (or other specific weapon types) which can be active on the field at one time.
0.02 ISK
Cross
PS ~ My above questions are not to be taken as rhetorical, I really do want you to describe in detail why and how the current mechanics of an uplink are imbalanced or problematic. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1634
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 14:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
The TACNET issue is DIRECTLY linked to Uplink spam. The ability for team, note team not squad, mates to spawn on a link is based on their ability to "see" that link via TACNET (at least that was the mechanic prior to Uprising and there's been no note of a change).
So the bug to profile via TACNET is the key to the spam. Not only does it make spamming required if you're going to get a link in place and actually be able to use it but it also makes spamming more valuable because now the whole team can use that uplink not just members of your squad.
Having addressed that lets move on to cost. The statement, "Cost plays NO factor to the point of my post." is in fact the problem. In a resource based game cost is always a part of the equation and to ignore it is simply flawed. Uplinks are expensive, in ISK, in SP, and in CPU/PG.
Most players/organized teams will not spend the resources to spam unlinks the way we see now once the TACNET bug is resolved because other options will become comparatively more valuable.
In Chrome uplinks were not spammed, and nanos despite there high use were spammed less. Then Uprising hits and there's a lot more spam. This is due to the TACNET bug (uplinks) and the myriad of Injector and Repair Tool issues (nanohives). With repair and revival hobbled, and tactical placement of uplinks a joke, of course spaming uplinks is common place and one of the most effective tactics, the alternatives have been crippled.
The point about ARs, or any other weapon/gear, is that they have value and that said value is measured in more than one way, but it all reverts to the risk vs reward dynamic.
Having a piece of gear, weapon or otherwise, that you have spent ISK, SP, CPU/PG on, have paied the "risk" for and now are blocked from gaining any potential rewards from is breaking the fundamental paradigm of the game. A limit like this is just like a limit on how many ARs (or other weapon) can be active in a game because it has the same effect on the investment of Mercs set up to use it. It's even more onerous than the vehicle limit because you won't know your high cost assets are useless and your risk is worthless (but still costly) until after you hit the field.
As to the comparison of CRUs and links, the "more HP + limit" method makes links CRUs that players pay for. CRUs have been being popped and/or camped since closed beta and on average vets (at least all those I run with) won't use them unless the area they are in is completely secure. The general assessment is that they're not tactically viable enough to be worth using and so are destroyed more often that not. This was true prior to Uprising and the advent of Uplink spam and making uplinks just as useless will not improve the situation.
Your suggestion is a direct nerf to support play because it is directly nerfing the possible utility and WP value of one of the few bits of support gear in the game. There aren't that many items in Dust which are not directly "I kill you" or "I don't die quickly, so I kill you".
Currently uplinks, injectors, and repair tools are all quite broken (i.e. suffer from substantial bugs) it just so happens that the bugs/ways in which uplinks are broken allow them to still have use value if spammed.
The bugs should be fixed, the game should not be rebalanced to accommodate the presence of the bugs.
0.02 ISK
Cross
PS ~ Another element of cost which is being overlooked here is the cost of clones when speaking of PC matches. The "we'll just zerg them to death via uplinks" method is a costly one when clones carry an ISK cost. Other methods will become more valuable when other methods become more functional, and those who don't see it will hemorrhage money to their ultimate detriment. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1646
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Posted - 2013.08.27 03:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Reiterating that everything in my post #21 remains true. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
1689
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Posted - 2013.09.08 17:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Taken from another thread.
Cross Atu wrote:Injectors and Repair Tools were already in need of some love when compared with other equipment and these changes have hit them yet again. Even leaving aside my long standing comments about the scaling of the WP awards for equipment the mechanical aspects effecting the Injector and Repair Tool, both bug and some of the "as intended", render them nearly useless for high level play.
There are some on these forums who like to complain about the heavy level of uplink use.... well give us back functional ways to keep our teams in fighting form without respawning and those uplinks won't be so pervasively required for effective play.
0.02 ISK
Cross
Also my post #21 still remains relevant.
CCP are you listening here? "Symptomatic medicine" is bad practice even in game design, that's how you kill the fun.
Especially in a sandbox if there's undesirable behavior address the macro level concerns first, going straight to a micro level mechanical limit simply diminishes play and limits creativity. It also, in ignoring the source of the behavior, generally compounds the problem by putting up a roadblock rather than providing a resolution.
0.02 ISK
~Cross
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
1695
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Posted - 2013.09.12 18:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Loathing wrote:Skihids wrote:I'm disheartened by the tendency to call for nerfs and limitations that reduce game complexity rather than increase our options.
Limit this, cut out that, prevent uplink deployment to three per merc, limit MD magazines to one round, etc..
Soon the only loadout will be the AR and a Nano-hive.
Loads of fun... [sic]Point defense should be about knuckling under and protecting/reviving your team mates, not throwing yourself at the enemy then respawning right there again in 3-5 seconds.
Which as I keep pointing out would actually happen more often, in fact it used to happen more often, if the revival and repair systems were fixed and polished.
Currently the injector is still suffering from many mechanical limitations; it's slow, it's rewards don't scale properly, it often requires more than one activation cycle to actually revive, and Mercs are consistently "over killed" or "insta-bled" preventing any chance of revive.
The repair situation is only marginally better. Repair rates are universally much lower than incoming dps making most repairs of minimal use except between bouts of fighting. Repairs require the Repair Tool to be held, preventing things like shooting back or use of active scans, and to top it all off the WP earnings from repair tools are not only improperly scaled but also capped and the cap is not specifically and clearly explained on the forums much less within the actual game.
The UI feedback for repair tools is poor, and when it comes to the cap it is totally absent, on top of which there are targeting and lock on bugs for the repair tools.
I could go on but the simple fact of the matter is that we don't need to alter uplinks, we need to make the other equipment more functional so that the in match meta changes.
Uplinks are costly items in SP, PG, CPU and ISK. Once we have [u[working alternatives[/u] Mercs won't spam them the way they do now, and frankly the Mercs who do still spam them will be at a disadvantage and at least in competitive games will pay the price.
Adding more restrictions to prevent people from using one of the few bits of equipment that isn't suffering from multiple significant issues is NOT the proper solution it's just a way to weaken the game.
TL;DR - Fix all the broken things about equipment then collect metrics on use before considering alterations to one of the few bits of equipment that's currently worthwhile.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
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