I don't understand.

-XOXO

You kind of have to read gbghg's thread to get the info first.

This is starting to sound like DCUO and Team Fortress 2 combined.

No harm of giving the idea a shot.

This is starting to sound like DCUO and Team Fortress 2 combined.

No harm of giving the idea a shot.

I've been thinking about what I'd like to call "minor tiericide," which is keeping the various levels but increasing drawbacks as you increase effectiveness. Assault rifles have more kick, HMG's overheat faster, grenades either have a tighter radius and more damage or a wider radius and less damage. So that, as you invest in higher-tier weapons, they require more actual skill to use well. This would give people the feeling that they're "upgrading," while causing them to have to adjust their play in minor ways to take advantage of the upgrade. It would also be a simple way of providing variety within a skill tree.

You could take a similar approach to dropsuits: for example, the higher tiers are slower than the lower tiers (except the scouts, where speed is the whole point--maybe they can have a higher recharge delay).

Optionally, the negative effects could be mitigated by the operations skill, so that the kick of a proto AR at level 5 is only slightly greater than the kick of the standard AR at level 1, but the standard AR at level 5 feels like butter.

Militia items should remain as an unquestionably lower-level variant of the standard items, because that's their purpose.

In any case, having tiers where everything about the higher-level item is better than the corresponding lower-level item just doesn't feel right. I would prefer trade-offs and variety.

I agree there is a problem with protosuits. THe problem is they give you ungodly amounts of HP. The model is that linear improvements in performance should require exponentially increasing cost. I think too much of the increased performance of protosuits comes by having higher HP.

Yeah cat merc did a good job of putting my idea into practice, way better than I could have done, it definitely helps you understand my general idea.

As Oso said the main issue is the huge HP advantage proto suits give you, I personally think it's a good thing that the fitting system allows you to do this, it provides variety and means that good fitting choices can throw a spanner in the works, after all who doesn't start cursing when you run into a group of heavies?

Proto suits takes it out of proportion though, we all saw the extreme of this with the whole cal logi fiasco, you had medium frame suits with more HP than heavies running around being effectively invincible. This combined with the TAC AR, a broken weapon that at the Proto level could out DPS an advanced large blaster turret. That's the other issue with proto, as their health advantage increases so must the weapons DPS to things balanced and to stop fights dragging out to ridiculous lengths, that's simple game design.

The biggest issue however is how the two combine, we saw the perfect example with the TAC AR cal logi, a medium frame suit with the highest EHP in the game and the highest infantry DPS as well. That is in effect every single proto suit to the tiers below. If the proto suits only had a EHP or a DPS advantage things would be fine, basic/militia tier players would be able to compete by using the appropriate strategy, the problem is the proto suits combine both advantages leaving basic players with only 2 choices, try to mob him and do as much damage as you can before you die or run away, it makes for crappy gameplay.

Have you not noticed how every single time we have a feedback thread from a new player or a veteran who's made an alt to try out the academy or NPE they have complained about the exact same thing in every single thread, "squads of proto players". I know what your going to say and it's true, squads are a huge force multiplier that has to be taken into account, but imagine what it must be like for a newbie, who comes out of the academy, where it is more or less a level playing field suddenly to find himself facing opponents who can take twice as much damage as them while doing twice as much damage to their opponents. It's a killer, when someone sees that they will have to endure months of being stomped on to reach a level playing field just to do the exact same thing to a new player are you surprised that retention is so low?

And in no way can the ISK cost be argued to be a limiting factor, the asset liquidation we got with uprising gave a lot of people enough to run proto forever effectively. I know of at least 2 people who claimed to have close to a billion ISK, and add on the eventual economy merge and proto suits will become peanuts for people with EVE backing.

The bottom line is something has to change, and the sooner it happens e better.

I don't think anything will happen... know why?

Aurum gear.

Its meant to be the primary monetization model in this game, I can't imagine they will ever get rid of tiers.

\o/

I came to the same conclusion before I made the original post, but I thought it better to try and fail (be ignored) than to not try at all. And I seriously didn't expect to get anywhere near as much community support as I did, I expected my thread to be invaded by hordes of proto bears decrying my idea.

I came to the same conclusion before I made the original post, but I thought it better to try and fail (be ignored) than to not try at all. And I seriously didn't expect to get anywhere near as much community support as I did, I expected my thread to be invaded by hordes of proto bears decrying my idea.

Your point being?

They already have AURUM suits at the Prototype level, and like I said in my post, you can just remove the lower tiers and use the bonuses to provide progression.

If you had to, you could knock the MAG suits back to the Frame suit that has matching bonuses.

I'd like to simplify things down to a militia suit, standard suit and proto suit. No basic vs. role based.

A militia suit would be the present basic suit but you can only use it with the prefitted gear and it is as good with modules as a proto suit would be only it is well rounded on offense/defense.

A standard suit would be a non role bonus suit but have the slots of the proto.

A proto would have the role bonus and the slots.


All suits would have 3 high/3 low slot config. You can spec it however you like.


It wouldn't cost that much to get up to proto suit. It's already a grind to get the mods and that is what really matters.


Make it about the mods and weapons and not the suits CCP!

Frankly I'm not overly fussed about my idea being implemented word for word so to speak, something like your idea which eliminates the power creep and ridiculous artificial limit between tiers would be good.

Power Creep?

Basically means that anything lower than Proto isn't worth using unless you need more ISK, and the Frame suits are useless period.

Okay

Your point being?

They already have AURUM suits at the Prototype level, and like I said in my post, you can just remove the lower tiers and use the bonuses to provide progression.

If you had to, you could knock the MAG suits back to the Frame suit that has matching bonuses.

What would be the point of aurum gear if you unlocked all gear at level 1?

Also... what would be the point of SP (and boosters) if the different between 12k in a module and 600k for level 5 is a small bonus?

I'm not trying to be a **** here, just curious. Need to think about monetization every time you make a change, if this was a subscription based game then anything goes, but its not.

What would be the point of aurum gear if you unlocked all gear at level 1?

Also... what would be the point of SP (and boosters) if the different between 12k in a module and 600k for level 5 is a small bonus?

I'm not trying to be a **** here, just curious. Need to think about monetization every time you make a change, if this was a subscription based game then anything goes, but its not.

That's with the way the assets are set up now, is what I'm saying.

I was thinking about this a few days ago, but don't we technically have tiericide? Admittedly with the skills as they are now it doesn't look like it, but replacing the scout/medium/heavy of each race into one skill would effectively give tiericide. And from there choose your specilisations such as logi assault commando or whatever, And treat them like T2 ships in eve where the skill carrys over to other races, opening more possible play styles than spending one month to get one suit to proto which could then be nerfed hard like the cal logi.

It's 'flat' across basic to specialised suits, but we go 'up' from std->adv->pro. We don't want up; just a nice big flat plane.

A level playing field, so to speak.

This change, though, isn't a small one. I fear that CCP will be afraid to take such a big leap, given how they seem to prefer small, safe steps over a longer period of time. If we implement tiercide, ISK rewards must change. The skill system will change. Gameplay could be affected, so map/level designers will change. Vehicles would have to change.

It's an overhaul of the whole system. Whilst it may not be the right path, if we don't give it a go soon I don't think we ever will, 'cause it looks like CCP are slowly propping up the current system instead of considering alternatives.

It's 'flat' across basic to specialised suits, but we go 'up' from std->adv->pro. We don't want up; just a nice big flat plane.

A level playing field, so to speak.

This change, though, isn't a small one. I fear that CCP will be afraid to take such a big leap, given how they seem to prefer small, safe steps over a longer period of time. If we implement tiercide, ISK rewards must change. The skill system will change. Gameplay could be affected, so map/level designers will change. Vehicles would have to change.

It's an overhaul of the whole system. Whilst it may not be the right path, if we don't give it a go soon I don't think we ever will, 'cause it looks like CCP are slowly propping up the current system instead of considering alternatives.

Ahh ok, I see what your saying. The only thing with that is we would probably end up with suits that have less slots than the protos atm. I'm only at 6.5 mil sp so far, and I am far from getting into a proto suit as it is, Im looking at maybe getting a proto suit by the 15 mil mark at this rate, but I love the idea of what I could do with the slots. I think something with the suits skill trees been closer to the weapon trees would also be a better alternative, because to me they feel more thought out. You get your weapon to proto and then work on other aspects you want to improve with it. I think suit skills as they are and how long they take to get is bad for the newer players to get to what they think is a more competitive level.

Basically lower the suit skill multiplyer, and add suit or specialisation specific skills

While I do not fully understand this, I will comment anyway.
Tiers are what make this game fun. What exactly will I have to work toward if there are no tiers?

Vehicles wouldn't need great changes, look at how they are set up.

I am a supporter of tetricide suits.

No more slot real estate getting devoured.

Tiers are what make this game fun. What exactly will I have to work toward if there are no tiers?

There is no need to teiricide modules however. there should be more fun on how best to fit your suit for your needs

The problems of the newbie-veteran SP gap, the constant cries for SP respecs, SP sinks whenver new content is introduced, complaints about wasted SP when the FotM is nerfed, complaints about wasted SP when an item is buffed and now everyone wants it, complaints about wasted SP when any small change to anything requiring SP occurs

FAR OUTWEIGHS

the 'fun' that you initially have unlocking new gear. Because that fun will fade eventually, but the above problems will always stick around.

This system, I agree, will mean less to 'work towards'. You will certainly unlock more for less. But as Killar pointed out there is still the ability to specialise into a role (which will cost a significant amount of SP to fully specialise), only now you will get an edge over opponents only by working as a team and understanding your purpose on the battlefield, instead of becoming more powerful simply because your gear is better.

AHEM
Isn't better gear SUPPOSED to be better? You really cannot expect people to be satisfied if EVERYONE has the SAME GEAR. There is no fun to be had with a system like that. That is when this game becomes the equivalent to Call of Duty. I've seen teams run standard gear and beat unorganized randoms with Proto gear.
Unlocking "more for less" really doesn't give us an objective. That's like taking the easy way out.If you want some system where you can unlock the best gear that really isn't the best because it's all the same, then go right ahead. But there will be no challenge if you choose to do so.
Alot of the fun included with this game is that it poses a challenge. Killing Proto Veterans with Militia gear is very satisfying. Now where does that satisfaction go when the Vets are now using the same stuff as the rest of us?

What about aurum gear? How will CCP monetize when there is no need for aurum gear and bonuses aren't enough of a motivation to buy boosters?

This isn't a free game after all.

AHEM
Isn't better gear SUPPOSED to be better? You really cannot expect people to be satisfied if EVERYONE has the SAME GEAR. There is no fun to be had with a system like that. That is when this game becomes the equivalent to Call of Duty. I've seen teams run standard gear and beat unorganized randoms with Proto gear.
Unlocking "more for less" really doesn't give us an objective. That's like taking the easy way out.If you want some system where you can unlock the best gear that really isn't the best because it's all the same, then go right ahead. But there will be no challenge if you choose to do so.
Alot of the fun included with this game is that it poses a challenge. Killing Proto Veterans with Militia gear is very satisfying. Now where does that satisfaction go when the Vets are now using the same stuff as the rest of us?

What about aurum gear? How will CCP monetize when there is no need for aurum gear and bonuses aren't enough of a motivation to buy boosters?

This isn't a free game after all.

So would the CPU/PG on the suit be lower to start with and the skills give a much larger bonus to it per level? Same for the armor and shield skills?

It won't matter because that's relative to what becomes the 'base' level when tiercide is implemented. If we choose prototype gear currently to be the basic level, then we will keep prototype module levels, and new variants will simply have similar CPU/PG requirements which are currently pretty well balanced. The other items in the lower tiers will be discarded and in return we get more variants. This will probably be what happens if we implement tiercide, since prototype suits have the most slots, and it'll be modify suits to make variants of prototype suits since they have lots of CPU/PG, and any crazy OP outliers can easily be adjusted.

Since the skill system probably will change too, I personally would use a skill system which requires a different set of skills per variant of item. But the majority are currently advocating an 'umbrella' skill system, where one skill unlocks a base item and all the variants under it. So lets stick with that to avoid confusion.

This means CPU/PG skills will probably apply to every dropsuit, like how they do currently. Bonus won't be tweaked unless fitting problems start popping up.

There is no need to teiricide modules however. there should be more fun on how best to fit your suit for your needs

Don't you ever try compare what we're considering here with Call of Duty.

Right now, "better gear is better". Advanced is better than militia. Prototype is better than advanced.

Therefore: A prototype dropsuit tanks longer, fits more and kills more than an advanced suit. It does EVERYTHING the advanced suit does, AND MORE!

Our system proposes that some dropsuits are better at SOME things, but weaker than others.

A scout dropsuit with a speed bonus (Dropsuit A) is good at hacking points before the enemy gets there, and getting out before the enemy gets there.

A scout dropsuit with a scan profile reduction bonus (Dropsuit B) is better at getting behind enemy lines and causing chaos.

Dropsuit A is better at one thing, Dropsuit B is better at something else. One's strength is another one's weakness.

Another example. Dropsuit C has an assault rifle damage bonus, Dropsuit D has an assault rifle reload bonus. Playstyles alter slightly across C and D, but there's still a difference. Dropsuit D suits the close range sprayers, dropsuit C suits the medium range precision masters.

In close range, dropsuit D outperforms C, but at medium range, C outperforms D.

Apply this to almost every statistic that can be changed on dropsuits, and we have DOZENS of variants.

You want a challenge? This system will bring you a challenge far greater than what we are presented with now. Right now, it's just countering or joining the FotM. With tiercide, it is almost a guarantee that every player in a match will be running a different dropsuit, with different modules, and totally different setups. Trying to figure out how to counter that is FAR more challenging than killing a prototype veteran in militia gear.

You want something to strive for? Right now, all you can 'strive for' is better gear. With tiercide, you can strive to be the best hacker with a mean shotgun to stop counter-hackers. With tiercide, you can be a logistics player who has an incredibly powerful repair tool. With tiercide you can strive to be that assault that uses the sidearm to engage a fight because you have a huge damage bonus on it, and once you lose the element of surprise you can switch to finish off the enemy with your main hand.

Specialisation becomes meaningful, instead of shallow.



Aurum to purchase colourful dropsuits. Dropsuit/vehicle paint. Purchasing Aurum can put a little gold symbol over your mercenary picture so in the future EVE contractors know you're willing to pay to win. (lol) Permanent, aesthetic customisation.

Furthermore, boosters won't lose much of their appeal. If they're still offered, people will still purchase them. It will still take hundreds of millions of SP to get every skill. It will still take 10-15m to fully specialise in a single role. Except now that single role is even smaller than a single role today. Initially SP isn't as important, but after specialising into one role it starts adding up.

And even if things are easier to unlock, people aren't going to go straight into unlocking everything. Items will still be purchased in Aurum to try out.

Also, Aurum saves ISK. ISK is going to become more important eventually, as CCP slowly implements player installations, more assets we can own, ways to customise or even leave our quarters, PvE, player-owned MCCs, more things a corporation can spend its money on. Players will essentially pay money for their gear so they don't have to spend ISK, since ISK is (will become) so important for a mercenary.

Also, again, the idea is to have SUITS have no tiers, not weapons.

In this one case, we want to use EVE Online as a model. The ships are all useful on their own now, rather than you just using some as stepping stones to get to others and then never touching them again.

However, meta levels for gear are essential to the fitting mechanic. If all we had was PRO equivalent gear, trying to be a top-level Logistics player would be impossible because you'd run out of fitting.

With meta levels on modules and weapons, you could fit Complex equipment and modules while using STD level weapons to free up more CPU and PG.

Don't you ever try compare what we're considering here with Call of Duty.

Right now, "better gear is better". Advanced is better than militia. Prototype is better than advanced.

Therefore: A prototype dropsuit tanks longer, fits more and kills more than an advanced suit. It does EVERYTHING the advanced suit does, AND MORE!

Our system proposes that some dropsuits are better at SOME things, but weaker than others.

A scout dropsuit with a speed bonus (Dropsuit A) is good at hacking points before the enemy gets there, and getting out before the enemy gets there.

A scout dropsuit with a scan profile reduction bonus (Dropsuit B) is better at getting behind enemy lines and causing chaos.

Dropsuit A is better at one thing, Dropsuit B is better at something else. One's strength is another one's weakness.

Another example. Dropsuit C has an assault rifle damage bonus, Dropsuit D has an assault rifle reload bonus. Playstyles alter slightly across C and D, but there's still a difference. Dropsuit D suits the close range sprayers, dropsuit C suits the medium range precision masters.

In close range, dropsuit D outperforms C, but at medium range, C outperforms D.

Apply this to almost every statistic that can be changed on dropsuits, and we have DOZENS of variants.

You want a challenge? This system will bring you a challenge far greater than what we are presented with now. Right now, it's just countering or joining the FotM. With tiercide, it is almost a guarantee that every player in a match will be running a different dropsuit, with different modules, and totally different setups. Trying to figure out how to counter that is FAR more challenging than killing a prototype veteran in militia gear.

You want something to strive for? Right now, all you can 'strive for' is better gear. With tiercide, you can strive to be the best hacker with a mean shotgun to stop counter-hackers. With tiercide, you can be a logistics player who has an incredibly powerful repair tool. With tiercide you can strive to be that assault that uses the sidearm to engage a fight because you have a huge damage bonus on it, and once you lose the element of surprise you can switch to finish off the enemy with your main hand.

Specialisation becomes meaningful, instead of shallow.



Aurum to purchase colourful dropsuits. Dropsuit/vehicle paint. Purchasing Aurum can put a little gold symbol over your mercenary picture so in the future EVE contractors know you're willing to pay to win. (lol) Permanent, aesthetic customisation.

Furthermore, boosters won't lose much of their appeal. If they're still offered, people will still purchase them. It will still take hundreds of millions of SP to get every skill. It will still take 10-15m to fully specialise in a single role. Except now that single role is even smaller than a single role today. Initially SP isn't as important, but after specialising into one role it starts adding up.

And even if things are easier to unlock, people aren't going to go straight into unlocking everything. Items will still be purchased in Aurum to try out.

Also, Aurum saves ISK. ISK is going to become more important eventually, as CCP slowly implements player installations, more assets we can own, ways to customise or even leave our quarters, PvE, player-owned MCCs, more things a corporation can spend its money on. Players will essentially pay money for their gear so they don't have to spend ISK, since ISK is (will become) so important for a mercenary.

Listen to mobius, he knows what he's talking about.

Also, again, the idea is to have SUITS have no tiers, not weapons.

In this one case, we want to use EVE Online as a model. The ships are all useful on their own now, rather than you just using some as stepping stones to get to others and then never touching them again.

However, meta levels for gear are essential to the fitting mechanic. If all we had was PRO equivalent gear, trying to be a top-level Logistics player would be impossible because you'd run out of fitting.

With meta levels on modules and weapons, you could fit Complex equipment and modules while using STD level weapons to free up more CPU and PG.

I gotta go back and read it all again because I have no idea what you're talking about. Nothing against what you're saying or how you said it. I just don't understand it and I think I was envisioning something completely different than what you guys are talking about.

So... we'd have to choose to either be a Logi OR Assault?
these Assault Logis will QQ.

Eventually, ISK will become more important.

For what? I currently have 200k+, I'm sure alot of people have more.

Aka dumbing the game down

every thread like this is totally confused about what tiericide was in eve. it's sad, really.

if anybody is confused what this thread is on about take 10 minutes of your life and go and check out the 4 eve races, cruiser size class of ships.

then look at the choice we get in dust for medium frames, i know its still early doors but its night and day in terms of variety

I think you might want to change that.

Aka making the fitting system more complicated https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=97244

why? there is no best ship in say the amarr cruiser line up because they all can do something different, granted there is more pre req skills in eve

No it wouldnt

Lees suits = less choice

Everyone uses a standard FOTM fit

Did you even read the link I gave you? Tiercide would mean more suits and choices, not less.

Less choices, no one would use basic/adv

Proto all day everyday on the same suit, we lose basic/adv and FOTM fits pop up while half the suits wont be used

Less choices, no one would use basic/adv

Proto all day everyday on the same suit, we lose basic/adv and FOTM fits pop up while half the suits wont be used

we suggested something similar in our piece detailing 'Where Dust Went Wrong' its essentially a model where the better equip is better in subtle ways [an adv AR having a 60 rounds and a red dot sight while a std one has 45 and iron sights, for instance] instead of making players with higher SP Godlike. Dust already has many of these subtle mechanics in the game so it would be an easy rebalance.

this would improve the gameplay, be kinder to newer players and puts the emphasis back on skill rather than acquiring gear that somehow lets u survive 4 times the bullets of a new player. with this system higher grade armor and shields would repair/recharge faster and have less movement penalty instead of the current huge health gap we currently see.

http://dustmercs.blogspot.com/2013/08/what-needs-improving-part-1.html#more