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gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
RISE of LEGION
3041
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Posted - 2013.08.09 17:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yeah cat merc did a good job of putting my idea into practice, way better than I could have done, it definitely helps you understand my general idea.
As Oso said the main issue is the huge HP advantage proto suits give you, I personally think it's a good thing that the fitting system allows you to do this, it provides variety and means that good fitting choices can throw a spanner in the works, after all who doesn't start cursing when you run into a group of heavies?
Proto suits takes it out of proportion though, we all saw the extreme of this with the whole cal logi fiasco, you had medium frame suits with more HP than heavies running around being effectively invincible. This combined with the TAC AR, a broken weapon that at the Proto level could out DPS an advanced large blaster turret. That's the other issue with proto, as their health advantage increases so must the weapons DPS to things balanced and to stop fights dragging out to ridiculous lengths, that's simple game design.
The biggest issue however is how the two combine, we saw the perfect example with the TAC AR cal logi, a medium frame suit with the highest EHP in the game and the highest infantry DPS as well. That is in effect every single proto suit to the tiers below. If the proto suits only had a EHP or a DPS advantage things would be fine, basic/militia tier players would be able to compete by using the appropriate strategy, the problem is the proto suits combine both advantages leaving basic players with only 2 choices, try to mob him and do as much damage as you can before you die or run away, it makes for crappy gameplay.
Have you not noticed how every single time we have a feedback thread from a new player or a veteran who's made an alt to try out the academy or NPE they have complained about the exact same thing in every single thread, "squads of proto players". I know what your going to say and it's true, squads are a huge force multiplier that has to be taken into account, but imagine what it must be like for a newbie, who comes out of the academy, where it is more or less a level playing field suddenly to find himself facing opponents who can take twice as much damage as them while doing twice as much damage to their opponents. It's a killer, when someone sees that they will have to endure months of being stomped on to reach a level playing field just to do the exact same thing to a new player are you surprised that retention is so low?
And in no way can the ISK cost be argued to be a limiting factor, the asset liquidation we got with uprising gave a lot of people enough to run proto forever effectively. I know of at least 2 people who claimed to have close to a billion ISK, and add on the eventual economy merge and proto suits will become peanuts for people with EVE backing.
The bottom line is something has to change, and the sooner it happens e better. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
RISE of LEGION
3047
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Posted - 2013.08.09 17:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:I don't think anything will happen... know why?
Aurum gear.
Its meant to be the primary monetization model in this game, I can't imagine they will ever get rid of tiers.
I came to the same conclusion before I made the original post, but I thought it better to try and fail (be ignored) than to not try at all. And I seriously didn't expect to get anywhere near as much community support as I did, I expected my thread to be invaded by hordes of proto bears decrying my idea. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
RISE of LEGION
3048
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Posted - 2013.08.09 17:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:gbghg wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:I don't think anything will happen... know why?
Aurum gear.
Its meant to be the primary monetization model in this game, I can't imagine they will ever get rid of tiers. I came to the same conclusion before I made the original post, but I thought it better to try and fail (be ignored) than to not try at all. And I seriously didn't expect to get anywhere near as much community support as I did, I expected my thread to be invaded by hordes of proto bears decrying my idea. Your point being? They already have AURUM suits at the Prototype level, and like I said in my post, you can just remove the lower tiers and use the bonuses to provide progression. If you had to, you could knock the MAG suits back to the Frame suit that has matching bonuses.
Frankly I'm not overly fussed about my idea being implemented word for word so to speak, something like your idea which eliminates the power creep and ridiculous artificial limit between tiers would be good. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
RISE of LEGION
3074
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Posted - 2013.08.11 17:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:There is no need to teiricide modules however. there should be more fun on how best to fit your suit for your needs
I'm with IWS here, I'd keep the current modules but tweak the various stats a bit. Give people the choice to go with the best mods (but the most demanding PG/CPU wise) or the less effective but less demanding (PG/CPU wise) ones. It would help keep variety in the fitting system, of course we would also need more modules, just to give us a good range of fitting option.
And I'd like to see the current steep hill that tiers are currently shift towards a shallow slope that gradually increases as an image of the SP/gear slope, it would mean that it's easier to get into things but they become increasingly hard to specialise in. No idea about numbers but (for examples sake) let's say that the basic shield skill has a 3x multiplier, a more specialised shield skill would have a 5x multiplier and so on. It means getting a decent basic (or frame) fit would be easy, but a specialised fit would require more time and SP to get. Progession is preserved but new players don't have to wait ages to become effective on the battlefield. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
RISE of LEGION
3074
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 18:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Also, again, the idea is to have SUITS have no tiers, not weapons.
In this one case, we want to use EVE Online as a model. The ships are all useful on their own now, rather than you just using some as stepping stones to get to others and then never touching them again.
However, meta levels for gear are essential to the fitting mechanic. If all we had was PRO equivalent gear, trying to be a top-level Logistics player would be impossible because you'd run out of fitting.
With meta levels on modules and weapons, you could fit Complex equipment and modules while using STD level weapons to free up more CPU and PG.
Listen to mobius, he knows what he's talking about. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
3104
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Posted - 2013.08.13 01:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Also, again, the idea is to have SUITS have no tiers, not weapons.
In this one case, we want to use EVE Online as a model. The ships are all useful on their own now, rather than you just using some as stepping stones to get to others and then never touching them again.
However, meta levels for gear are essential to the fitting mechanic. If all we had was PRO equivalent gear, trying to be a top-level Logistics player would be impossible because you'd run out of fitting.
With meta levels on modules and weapons, you could fit Complex equipment and modules while using STD level weapons to free up more CPU and PG. So... we'd have to choose to either be a Logi OR Assault? these Assault Logis will QQ.
Basically, it should still be possible to make an assault logi but we'd have to see them sacrifice a bit of the logi to gain the assault, in other words pick a single role to do well or two roles to be mediocre in. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
3113
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Posted - 2013.08.13 17:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Aka dumbing the game down
Aka making the fitting system more complicated https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=97244 |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
3113
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Posted - 2013.08.13 17:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Monty Mole Clone wrote:low genius wrote:every thread like this is totally confused about what tiericide was in eve. it's sad, really. if anybody is confused what this thread is on about take 10 minutes of your life and go and check out the 4 eve races, cruiser size class of ships. then look at the choice we get in dust for medium frames, i know its still early doors but its night and day in terms of variety
I think you might want to change that. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
3113
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Posted - 2013.08.13 18:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Monty Mole Clone wrote:gbghg wrote:Monty Mole Clone wrote:low genius wrote:every thread like this is totally confused about what tiericide was in eve. it's sad, really. if anybody is confused what this thread is on about take 10 minutes of your life and go and check out the 4 eve races, cruiser size class of ships. then look at the choice we get in dust for medium frames, i know its still early doors but its night and day in terms of variety I think you might want to change that. why? there is no best ship in say the amarr cruiser line up because they all can do something different, granted there is more pre req skills in eve
I meant the bolded bit, reread what you posted. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
3113
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Posted - 2013.08.13 18:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:No it wouldnt Lees suits = less choice Everyone uses a standard FOTM fit
Did you even read the link I gave you? Tiercide would mean more suits and choices, not less. |
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gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
3113
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Posted - 2013.08.13 18:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:gbghg wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:No it wouldnt Lees suits = less choice Everyone uses a standard FOTM fit Did you even read the link I gave you? Tiercide would mean more suits and choices, not less. Less choices, no one would use basic/adv Proto all day everyday on the same suit, we lose basic/adv and FOTM fits pop up while half the suits wont be used
Okay, have you even read any of the tiercide threads? I have a list of every tiercide thread I know of in the council chamber thread, go and read them. The basic point of tiercide is that there would be no "proto", "ADV", or "standard", we would have basic and specialised. The basic suits can be fit to pull off any role, the specialised suits can pull off one role better, this promotes fitting choices and proper suit usage, rather than using one suit for everything you will use a different suit for a different role.
If you want to be the tank in your squad, eg the guy in front who soaks up the damage, you use a suit with a bonus to EHP module effectiveness, if you want to a logi you use a suit that carries more equipment slots and a bonus to equipment uses. If you want to do the most DPS possible you use a suit with a bonus to damage mods etc etc, you get the picture, I have no idea how you got the idea that tiercide would dumb the game down, it's the complete opposite. |
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