I've been thinking about what I'd like to call "minor tiericide," which is keeping the various levels but increasing drawbacks as you increase effectiveness. Assault rifles have more kick, HMG's overheat faster, grenades either have a tighter radius and more damage or a wider radius and less damage. So that, as you invest in higher-tier weapons, they require more actual skill to use well. This would give people the feeling that they're "upgrading," while causing them to have to adjust their play in minor ways to take advantage of the upgrade. It would also be a simple way of providing variety within a skill tree.

You could take a similar approach to dropsuits: for example, the higher tiers are slower than the lower tiers (except the scouts, where speed is the whole point--maybe they can have a higher recharge delay).

Optionally, the negative effects could be mitigated by the operations skill, so that the kick of a proto AR at level 5 is only slightly greater than the kick of the standard AR at level 1, but the standard AR at level 5 feels like butter.

Militia items should remain as an unquestionably lower-level variant of the standard items, because that's their purpose.

In any case, having tiers where everything about the higher-level item is better than the corresponding lower-level item just doesn't feel right. I would prefer trade-offs and variety.

Yeah cat merc did a good job of putting my idea into practice, way better than I could have done, it definitely helps you understand my general idea.

As Oso said the main issue is the huge HP advantage proto suits give you, I personally think it's a good thing that the fitting system allows you to do this, it provides variety and means that good fitting choices can throw a spanner in the works, after all who doesn't start cursing when you run into a group of heavies?

Proto suits takes it out of proportion though, we all saw the extreme of this with the whole cal logi fiasco, you had medium frame suits with more HP than heavies running around being effectively invincible. This combined with the TAC AR, a broken weapon that at the Proto level could out DPS an advanced large blaster turret. That's the other issue with proto, as their health advantage increases so must the weapons DPS to things balanced and to stop fights dragging out to ridiculous lengths, that's simple game design.

The biggest issue however is how the two combine, we saw the perfect example with the TAC AR cal logi, a medium frame suit with the highest EHP in the game and the highest infantry DPS as well. That is in effect every single proto suit to the tiers below. If the proto suits only had a EHP or a DPS advantage things would be fine, basic/militia tier players would be able to compete by using the appropriate strategy, the problem is the proto suits combine both advantages leaving basic players with only 2 choices, try to mob him and do as much damage as you can before you die or run away, it makes for crappy gameplay.

Have you not noticed how every single time we have a feedback thread from a new player or a veteran who's made an alt to try out the academy or NPE they have complained about the exact same thing in every single thread, "squads of proto players". I know what your going to say and it's true, squads are a huge force multiplier that has to be taken into account, but imagine what it must be like for a newbie, who comes out of the academy, where it is more or less a level playing field suddenly to find himself facing opponents who can take twice as much damage as them while doing twice as much damage to their opponents. It's a killer, when someone sees that they will have to endure months of being stomped on to reach a level playing field just to do the exact same thing to a new player are you surprised that retention is so low?

And in no way can the ISK cost be argued to be a limiting factor, the asset liquidation we got with uprising gave a lot of people enough to run proto forever effectively. I know of at least 2 people who claimed to have close to a billion ISK, and add on the eventual economy merge and proto suits will become peanuts for people with EVE backing.

The bottom line is something has to change, and the sooner it happens e better.

Basically means that anything lower than Proto isn't worth using unless you need more ISK, and the Frame suits are useless period.

What would be the point of aurum gear if you unlocked all gear at level 1?

Also... what would be the point of SP (and boosters) if the different between 12k in a module and 600k for level 5 is a small bonus?

I'm not trying to be a **** here, just curious. Need to think about monetization every time you make a change, if this was a subscription based game then anything goes, but its not.

That's with the way the assets are set up now, is what I'm saying.

It's 'flat' across basic to specialised suits, but we go 'up' from std->adv->pro. We don't want up; just a nice big flat plane.

A level playing field, so to speak.

This change, though, isn't a small one. I fear that CCP will be afraid to take such a big leap, given how they seem to prefer small, safe steps over a longer period of time. If we implement tiercide, ISK rewards must change. The skill system will change. Gameplay could be affected, so map/level designers will change. Vehicles would have to change.

It's an overhaul of the whole system. Whilst it may not be the right path, if we don't give it a go soon I don't think we ever will, 'cause it looks like CCP are slowly propping up the current system instead of considering alternatives.

Ahh ok, I see what your saying. The only thing with that is we would probably end up with suits that have less slots than the protos atm. I'm only at 6.5 mil sp so far, and I am far from getting into a proto suit as it is, Im looking at maybe getting a proto suit by the 15 mil mark at this rate, but I love the idea of what I could do with the slots. I think something with the suits skill trees been closer to the weapon trees would also be a better alternative, because to me they feel more thought out. You get your weapon to proto and then work on other aspects you want to improve with it. I think suit skills as they are and how long they take to get is bad for the newer players to get to what they think is a more competitive level.

Basically lower the suit skill multiplyer, and add suit or specialisation specific skills

While I do not fully understand this, I will comment anyway.
Tiers are what make this game fun. What exactly will I have to work toward if there are no tiers?

I am a supporter of tetricide suits.

No more slot real estate getting devoured.

AHEM
Isn't better gear SUPPOSED to be better? You really cannot expect people to be satisfied if EVERYONE has the SAME GEAR. There is no fun to be had with a system like that. That is when this game becomes the equivalent to Call of Duty. I've seen teams run standard gear and beat unorganized randoms with Proto gear.
Unlocking "more for less" really doesn't give us an objective. That's like taking the easy way out.If you want some system where you can unlock the best gear that really isn't the best because it's all the same, then go right ahead. But there will be no challenge if you choose to do so.
Alot of the fun included with this game is that it poses a challenge. Killing Proto Veterans with Militia gear is very satisfying. Now where does that satisfaction go when the Vets are now using the same stuff as the rest of us?

Don't you ever try compare what we're considering here with Call of Duty.

Right now, "better gear is better". Advanced is better than militia. Prototype is better than advanced.

Therefore: A prototype dropsuit tanks longer, fits more and kills more than an advanced suit. It does EVERYTHING the advanced suit does, AND MORE!

Our system proposes that some dropsuits are better at SOME things, but weaker than others.

A scout dropsuit with a speed bonus (Dropsuit A) is good at hacking points before the enemy gets there, and getting out before the enemy gets there.

A scout dropsuit with a scan profile reduction bonus (Dropsuit B) is better at getting behind enemy lines and causing chaos.

Dropsuit A is better at one thing, Dropsuit B is better at something else. One's strength is another one's weakness.

Another example. Dropsuit C has an assault rifle damage bonus, Dropsuit D has an assault rifle reload bonus. Playstyles alter slightly across C and D, but there's still a difference. Dropsuit D suits the close range sprayers, dropsuit C suits the medium range precision masters.

In close range, dropsuit D outperforms C, but at medium range, C outperforms D.

Apply this to almost every statistic that can be changed on dropsuits, and we have DOZENS of variants.

You want a challenge? This system will bring you a challenge far greater than what we are presented with now. Right now, it's just countering or joining the FotM. With tiercide, it is almost a guarantee that every player in a match will be running a different dropsuit, with different modules, and totally different setups. Trying to figure out how to counter that is FAR more challenging than killing a prototype veteran in militia gear.

You want something to strive for? Right now, all you can 'strive for' is better gear. With tiercide, you can strive to be the best hacker with a mean shotgun to stop counter-hackers. With tiercide, you can be a logistics player who has an incredibly powerful repair tool. With tiercide you can strive to be that assault that uses the sidearm to engage a fight because you have a huge damage bonus on it, and once you lose the element of surprise you can switch to finish off the enemy with your main hand.

Specialisation becomes meaningful, instead of shallow.



Aurum to purchase colourful dropsuits. Dropsuit/vehicle paint. Purchasing Aurum can put a little gold symbol over your mercenary picture so in the future EVE contractors know you're willing to pay to win. (lol) Permanent, aesthetic customisation.

Furthermore, boosters won't lose much of their appeal. If they're still offered, people will still purchase them. It will still take hundreds of millions of SP to get every skill. It will still take 10-15m to fully specialise in a single role. Except now that single role is even smaller than a single role today. Initially SP isn't as important, but after specialising into one role it starts adding up.

And even if things are easier to unlock, people aren't going to go straight into unlocking everything. Items will still be purchased in Aurum to try out.

Also, Aurum saves ISK. ISK is going to become more important eventually, as CCP slowly implements player installations, more assets we can own, ways to customise or even leave our quarters, PvE, player-owned MCCs, more things a corporation can spend its money on. Players will essentially pay money for their gear so they don't have to spend ISK, since ISK is (will become) so important for a mercenary.

Listen to mobius, he knows what he's talking about.

Also, again, the idea is to have SUITS have no tiers, not weapons.

In this one case, we want to use EVE Online as a model. The ships are all useful on their own now, rather than you just using some as stepping stones to get to others and then never touching them again.

However, meta levels for gear are essential to the fitting mechanic. If all we had was PRO equivalent gear, trying to be a top-level Logistics player would be impossible because you'd run out of fitting.

With meta levels on modules and weapons, you could fit Complex equipment and modules while using STD level weapons to free up more CPU and PG.

For what? I currently have 200k+, I'm sure alot of people have more.

we suggested something similar in our piece detailing 'Where Dust Went Wrong' its essentially a model where the better equip is better in subtle ways [an adv AR having a 60 rounds and a red dot sight while a std one has 45 and iron sights, for instance] instead of making players with higher SP Godlike. Dust already has many of these subtle mechanics in the game so it would be an easy rebalance.

this would improve the gameplay, be kinder to newer players and puts the emphasis back on skill rather than acquiring gear that somehow lets u survive 4 times the bullets of a new player. with this system higher grade armor and shields would repair/recharge faster and have less movement penalty instead of the current huge health gap we currently see.

http://dustmercs.blogspot.com/2013/08/what-needs-improving-part-1.html#more