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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
1150
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Posted - 2013.08.11 05:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Morrigan Uroboros wrote:I was thinking about this a few days ago, but don't we technically have tiericide? Admittedly with the skills as they are now it doesn't look like it, but replacing the scout/medium/heavy of each race into one skill would effectively give tiericide. And from there choose your specilisations such as logi assault commando or whatever, And treat them like T2 ships in eve where the skill carrys over to other races, opening more possible play styles than spending one month to get one suit to proto which could then be nerfed hard like the cal logi.
It's 'flat' across basic to specialised suits, but we go 'up' from std->adv->pro. We don't want up; just a nice big flat plane.
A level playing field, so to speak.
This change, though, isn't a small one. I fear that CCP will be afraid to take such a big leap, given how they seem to prefer small, safe steps over a longer period of time. If we implement tiercide, ISK rewards must change. The skill system will change. Gameplay could be affected, so map/level designers will change. Vehicles would have to change.
It's an overhaul of the whole system. Whilst it may not be the right path, if we don't give it a go soon I don't think we ever will, 'cause it looks like CCP are slowly propping up the current system instead of considering alternatives. |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
1151
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 06:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Patrick57 wrote:Tiers are what make this game fun. What exactly will I have to work toward if there are no tiers?
The problems of the newbie-veteran SP gap, the constant cries for SP respecs, SP sinks whenver new content is introduced, complaints about wasted SP when the FotM is nerfed, complaints about wasted SP when an item is buffed and now everyone wants it, complaints about wasted SP when any small change to anything requiring SP occurs
FAR OUTWEIGHS
the 'fun' that you initially have unlocking new gear. Because that fun will fade eventually, but the above problems will always stick around.
This system, I agree, will mean less to 'work towards'. You will certainly unlock more for less. But as Killar pointed out there is still the ability to specialise into a role (which will cost a significant amount of SP to fully specialise), only now you will get an edge over opponents only by working as a team and understanding your purpose on the battlefield, instead of becoming more powerful simply because your gear is better. |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
1151
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 06:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:There is no need to teiricide modules however. there should be more fun on how best to fit your suit for your needs
I would prefer lots of module variants (such as what we have with ferroscale, reactive, and basic armour plates) than current tiers, but if CCP will only settle for a partial tiercide, I'm fine with that too. |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
1153
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 09:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Patrick57 wrote:
AHEM
Isn't better gear SUPPOSED to be better? You really cannot expect people to be satisfied if EVERYONE has the SAME GEAR. There is no fun to be had with a system like that. That is when this game becomes the equivalent to Call of Duty. I've seen teams run standard gear and beat unorganized randoms with Proto gear.
Unlocking "more for less" really doesn't give us an objective. That's like taking the easy way out.If you want some system where you can unlock the best gear that really isn't the best because it's all the same, then go right ahead. But there will be no challenge if you choose to do so.
Alot of the fun included with this game is that it poses a challenge. Killing Proto Veterans with Militia gear is very satisfying. Now where does that satisfaction go when the Vets are now using the same stuff as the rest of us?
Don't you ever try compare what we're considering here with Call of Duty.
Right now, "better gear is better". Advanced is better than militia. Prototype is better than advanced.
Therefore: A prototype dropsuit tanks longer, fits more and kills more than an advanced suit. It does EVERYTHING the advanced suit does, AND MORE!
Our system proposes that some dropsuits are better at SOME things, but weaker than others.
A scout dropsuit with a speed bonus (Dropsuit A) is good at hacking points before the enemy gets there, and getting out before the enemy gets there.
A scout dropsuit with a scan profile reduction bonus (Dropsuit B) is better at getting behind enemy lines and causing chaos.
Dropsuit A is better at one thing, Dropsuit B is better at something else. One's strength is another one's weakness.
Another example. Dropsuit C has an assault rifle damage bonus, Dropsuit D has an assault rifle reload bonus. Playstyles alter slightly across C and D, but there's still a difference. Dropsuit D suits the close range sprayers, dropsuit C suits the medium range precision masters.
In close range, dropsuit D outperforms C, but at medium range, C outperforms D.
Apply this to almost every statistic that can be changed on dropsuits, and we have DOZENS of variants.
You want a challenge? This system will bring you a challenge far greater than what we are presented with now. Right now, it's just countering or joining the FotM. With tiercide, it is almost a guarantee that every player in a match will be running a different dropsuit, with different modules, and totally different setups. Trying to figure out how to counter that is FAR more challenging than killing a prototype veteran in militia gear.
You want something to strive for? Right now, all you can 'strive for' is better gear. With tiercide, you can strive to be the best hacker with a mean shotgun to stop counter-hackers. With tiercide, you can be a logistics player who has an incredibly powerful repair tool. With tiercide you can strive to be that assault that uses the sidearm to engage a fight because you have a huge damage bonus on it, and once you lose the element of surprise you can switch to finish off the enemy with your main hand.
Specialisation becomes meaningful, instead of shallow.
ZDub 303 wrote:What about aurum gear? How will CCP monetize when there is no need for aurum gear and bonuses aren't enough of a motivation to buy boosters?
This isn't a free game after all.
Aurum to purchase colourful dropsuits. Dropsuit/vehicle paint. Purchasing Aurum can put a little gold symbol over your mercenary picture so in the future EVE contractors know you're willing to pay to win. (lol) Permanent, aesthetic customisation.
Furthermore, boosters won't lose much of their appeal. If they're still offered, people will still purchase them. It will still take hundreds of millions of SP to get every skill. It will still take 10-15m to fully specialise in a single role. Except now that single role is even smaller than a single role today. Initially SP isn't as important, but after specialising into one role it starts adding up.
And even if things are easier to unlock, people aren't going to go straight into unlocking everything. Items will still be purchased in Aurum to try out.
Also, Aurum saves ISK. ISK is going to become more important eventually, as CCP slowly implements player installations, more assets we can own, ways to customise or even leave our quarters, PvE, player-owned MCCs, more things a corporation can spend its money on. Players will essentially pay money for their gear so they don't have to spend ISK, since ISK is (will become) so important for a mercenary.
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
1154
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Posted - 2013.08.11 11:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Altina McAlterson wrote:So would the CPU/PG on the suit be lower to start with and the skills give a much larger bonus to it per level? Same for the armor and shield skills?
It won't matter because that's relative to what becomes the 'base' level when tiercide is implemented. If we choose prototype gear currently to be the basic level, then we will keep prototype module levels, and new variants will simply have similar CPU/PG requirements which are currently pretty well balanced. The other items in the lower tiers will be discarded and in return we get more variants. This will probably be what happens if we implement tiercide, since prototype suits have the most slots, and it'll be modify suits to make variants of prototype suits since they have lots of CPU/PG, and any crazy OP outliers can easily be adjusted.
Since the skill system probably will change too, I personally would use a skill system which requires a different set of skills per variant of item. But the majority are currently advocating an 'umbrella' skill system, where one skill unlocks a base item and all the variants under it. So lets stick with that to avoid confusion.
This means CPU/PG skills will probably apply to every dropsuit, like how they do currently. Bonus won't be tweaked unless fitting problems start popping up.
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
1163
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Posted - 2013.08.12 22:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Altina McAlterson wrote:
I gotta go back and read it all again because I have no idea what you're talking about. Nothing against what you're saying or how you said it. I just don't understand it and I think I was envisioning something completely different than what you guys are talking about.
My bad. I might not have answered your question directly.
You were wondering whether or not CPU/PG skills would change so that there's more of a bonus per level, but less base CPU/PG on suits to compensate.
In an answer to that, I basically said it was a balancing issue that had nothing to do with tiercide.
If the skills/base values have to change, that will happen AFTER tiercide, and after we see how all the modules and dropsuits fit together, and whether or not the CPU/PG skills are giving too much/too little of a bonus.
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