I did a thread a while back about Generalising the Skill Trees at the Lower End and still believe it to be a good potential revamp.

Basically you would have the first nodes of the skill trees be the most basic categories - i.e. Dropsuit Command > Light/Medium/Heavy dropsuit. These nodes give access to all the racial variants of the lower level basic frames, STD and maybe ADV and possibly even proto but only for the basic frames. In order to use specialisations like the assault or sentinel, you have to skill into the next nodes which would be where the racial splits come in. So:

DS Command > Frames > Racials > Further Specialisations

A similar setup could be used for Weaponary: (using rifles as an example)

Weaponary > Light > Rifles (covers meta 1-3 for AR, ScR and other racial rifles) > AR (meta 4+ for individual weapons) > AR specialisations (sharpshooter, etc.)

This system would simplify the skill tree immensely, as well as allowing people to try out different racial variants without having to spend large amounts of SP in something they might not like but maintains the advantages of specialising at the higher ends. As an added benefit, when new racial variants of weapons and dropsuits become available this would allow people to easily move across to them whilst allowing them some good similar options to use in the meantime, while their racial desires are unavailable.

The downside, particularly to weapons but also dropsuits currently, is that some routes would provide a great deal of options, while others would only provide one. e.g. Medium frames would give 4 racial frames to choose from but Heavy frames would only give 1. However this would only be an issue until the racial variants are released and as mentioned as an upside, heavies would be able to play as the amarr and then use any racial heavy frame instantly when it is released (but not the sentinel/commando specialisations).

I support the idea of making specializations global to make cross training more valuable. If I want to operate a logistics dropsuit, I should only need training (skill points) into operating a logistics dropsuit (a general logistics skill book) and the racial dropsuit (a general racial medium dropsuit skill book). This means if I spec into Amarr logi, I should only need Gallente medium dropsuit operation 3 to be able to operate a Gallente logi as efficiently as my Amarr logi.

Also, let me provide an observation: you said it would be over 300 million SP in weaponry alone when it gets finished. I've been unsubbed from EVE for a couple months now so I can't remember correctly anymore, but the best clone one could ever get in EVE retains something above 300 million SP for a cost of 90 million ISK. And that is getting level 5 in every single skill in EVE.

Due to this observation, I support your need to change the trees because there will be more skills in Dust than in EVE, and most of them will be duplicates!

I want to add that the old skill tree was actually better in terms of generalization. You had a single skill to increase range in all light weapons, a single skill to increase ammo on all light weapons, a single skill to increase reload speed on all light weapons, etc. We need more generalization, as it allows players to skill into different items more easily, and diversification is the key to surviving in the future. Nature and evolution (I'm sorry if you don't believe in this) understand this concept: climate change is bound to happen and a species with enough diversification in its genes will survive. Dust is no different: nerfs can always be expected, and being specialized into different weapons will get you through any nerf.

RACIAL SUIT LINES - by J-Lewis
Pros: Clear lines of progression. Paths of least resistance. Lights and Mediums are cheap(er). Encouraged diversification. Breeds more adaptive players. Compatible with current "no multiple prerequisites" policy. Easy to understand.
Cons: Heavies are going to feel nerfed (should be solved through suit balancing).
Note: I feel this tree is strong for DUST; it's both easy to implement and adds many of the good feelings of progress and contributed effort that this tree needs. Its only real weakness is certain classes being less powerful than the tree would alude, but that's a balance problem.

I like this, but I would change Medium and Light so that Medium is first. The second row would then contain Logistics, Light, Heavy and Assault. This would allow players to skill into a more general role first, then branch into either Light or Heavy, which are more specialized.

For reference, it would look something like this:

Row 1:
Medium Dropsuits

Row 2:
Logistics
Assault
Light Dropsuits
Heavy Dropsuits

Row 3:
Scout
Pilot
Sentinel
Commando

It's not very visual but I hope you get the idea.

No offense, but you have a lot of passive skills that promote curbstomping. RoF and Range increasing through skills encourage a SP > SKill gap, similar to the situation we had in Chromosome.

Thanks for the feedback!

They're not particularly important to the overall structure; I don't have a particularly strong reason for including them. What's important is that the passive skills that are currently duplicated ad nausea (CPU/PG reductions, Rapid reload, dispersion, ammo) every time new weapons are added be consolidated into one place; I hope you agree with this point.

But I'd like to question the opinion that there's anything wrong with what are perceived as "curbstomping skills" such as ROF and range. Are they any different from passive damage increasing skills? I don't personally think so.

I joined in Chromosome. Yeah, we had Sharpshooter proficiency trained peeps with Viziams melting dudes at ridiculous ranges. But I think that was down to the bonus being too big. We were talking a 40% range boost. That's why I toned down the bonuses to a more reasonable 15% Optimal + 10% Falloff, and separated them by range band. They're useful, but with the advent of Absolute range, not the deciding factors in the vast majority of situations (range increases do not scale damage projection linearly).

I don't think they should be seen as skills that promote curbstomping, they're no different than the vast majority of Dropsuit Upgrades core skills IMO (HP bonuses and the like). In fact, I'd argue that all these skills simply reinforce the importance of tactical play.

In the grand scheme of things, some of these bonuses, if tuned right, will affect some items more than others. A rate of fire increase of 15% is most noticeable on an SMG, but doesn't affect a Plasma Cannon or Charge based Weapon at all. A range bonus is less useful, or even pointless on gravity affected weapons like the mass driver but very useful on a hit-scan sniper. I think if both items and bonuses are taken into account, these bonuses will become a powerful balancing asset rather than a curbstomping tool.

It's a long philosophical balance discussion though, so I'd love some back and forth on this particular one.
I'll sleep on it and come back to it tomorrow, hopefully with a more clear mind.

Maybe I should hop into IRC more often too...

TECH LINES - by J-Lewis
Pros: Only adds one skill per weapon. Clear structure. Paths of least resistance. Encouraged diversification. Breeds more adaptive players. Compatible with current "no multiple prerequisites" policy. Easy to understand. No SP sinks.
Cons: The list of proficiencies could get rather long, though nowhere near as bad as currently.
Note: Categorizes weapons by technology, and groups all the upgrade skills into a Weapon Upgrades branch. Reduces the need for militia versions of weapons significantly. Added a few non existing skills in the Weapon Upgrades branch (up for debate). There is some potential for the Weapon Upgrade branch skills to play into a modular weapon system...

There's nothing wrong with things that increase range and such, but I think something like that should be tied to a suit bonus rather than a character. That way it's not something that's always on. Think of dropsuits as the control that dictates what a player uses and the role they want to fill on the field. Take the sharpshooter suit idea in my topic- the suit gets a range bonus, but has to give up close range combat effectiveness.

The on+¦y thing that I would change about this is to split the Hybrid category into Hybrid-Plasma (Assault Rifle, Plasma Cannon, Shotgun) and Hybrid-Railgun (Sniper Rifle, Forge Gun).

I'ma just throw in an idea I've had bobbling around in my head for the Dropsuit Skills.
Here it is:
Get rid of the starting skill, dropsuit command, it's only a sink with no real service.
Change the next tier of skills to Amarr Dropsuits, Gallente Dropsuits, Minmatar Dropsuits and Caldari Dropsuits.
My Idea is that these would give you access to all basic suits, for example:
Skilling into Amarr dropsuits would unlock standard light, medium and heavy dropsuits at level 1, advanced at 3, and pro at 5.
From here, one would specialise, for example, I could choose Amarr logistics, Amarr scout, or Amarr Sentinel.

I await your feedback on why this is a bad idea.

ALTERNATE RACIAL SUIT LINES - by Vulcanus Lightbringer.
Pros/Cons: About the same as Racial Suit Lines.
Notes: See post #11. Alternate take on the Racial Suit Lines.

I did a thread a while back about Generalising the Skill Trees at the Lower End and still believe it to be a good potential revamp.
...
Weaponary > Light > Rifles (covers meta 1-3 for AR, ScR and other racial rifles) > AR (meta 4+ for individual weapons) > AR specialisations (sharpshooter, etc.)
....

There are some skills that should not be considered including (or re-including), like the sharpshooter range increase skill. This was removed because it simply became a skill that everyone had to have. Same as skilling weaponary to level 5 was a must have in old builds too. If there is a skill that is so useful and affects pretty much everything in the game, it's not appropriate. A ROF increase skill for instance would affect most weapons in the game (pretty much the only one it wouldn't is the plasma cannon), so everyone would get it.

There are a number of skills that are currently weapon specific but should be moved back to general core skills like in your tech tree idea. Maybe there should be a Weapons Upgrades Skills tree like the Dropsuit Upgrades skills tree - afterall, we don't have dropsuit upgrade skills tied to specific suits; why should weapons upgrade skills be tied to specific weapons?

[quote=Django Quik]My opinion that the removal of sharpshooter and the bonus on weaponry was a huge mistake from a game design point of view will probably never change. The problems could have been solved differently, without cutting content, and it could have maintained some very important tools for game balance.

Weaponry > Light > Assault (giving access to all Racial Assault rifes) > Racial specialisation (eg. Caldari Assault Rifle Proficancy)
Weaponry > Light > Combat Rifles (current Burst Variants) > Racial specialisation (eg. Caldari Combat Rifle Proficancy)
tec.

And basicly the Same for Dropsuits

Dropsuit Command > Medium DS giving access to all Basic Medium DS) > Assault (giving general Assault bonus) > Caldari Assault Specialisation (giving Race specific bonus)