|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 20:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
J-Lewis wrote:RACIAL SUIT LINES - by J-Lewis Pros: Clear lines of progression. Paths of least resistance. Lights and Mediums are cheap(er). Encouraged diversification. Breeds more adaptive players. Compatible with current "no multiple prerequisites" policy. Easy to understand. Cons: Heavies are going to feel nerfed (should be solved through suit balancing). Note: I feel this tree is strong for DUST; it's both easy to implement and adds many of the good feelings of progress and contributed effort that this tree needs. Its only real weakness is certain classes being less powerful than the tree would alude, but that's a balance problem.
I like this, but I would change Medium and Light so that Medium is first. The second row would then contain Logistics, Assault, Light and Heavy. This would allow players to skill into a more general role first, then branch into either Light or Heavy, which are more specialized.
For reference, it would look something like this:
Row 1: Medium Dropsuits
Row 2: Logistics Assault Light Dropsuits Heavy Dropsuits
Row 3: Scout Pilot Sentinel Commando
It's not very visual but I hope you get the idea. |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 20:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Great stuff! |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 22:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
J-Lewis wrote:TECH LINES - by J-Lewis Pros: Only adds one skill per weapon. Clear structure. Paths of least resistance. Encouraged diversification. Breeds more adaptive players. Compatible with current "no multiple prerequisites" policy. Easy to understand. No SP sinks. Cons: The list of proficiencies could get rather long, though nowhere near as bad as currently. Note: Categorizes weapons by technology, and groups all the upgrade skills into a Weapon Upgrades branch. Reduces the need for militia versions of weapons significantly. Added a few non existing skills in the Weapon Upgrades branch (up for debate). There is some potential for the Weapon Upgrade branch skills to play into a modular weapon system...
The on+¦y thing that I would change about this is to split the Hybrid category into Hybrid-Plasma (Assault Rifle, Plasma Cannon, Shotgun) and Hybrid-Railgun (Sniper Rifle, Forge Gun). |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 13:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
I've got nothing to add, I just want CCP to see this... :) |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 18:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
J-Lewis wrote:I tend to agree that yes: nailing core FPS mechanics is really more important right now than the skill tree. But I'm also trying to be forward thinking. The hot topic of the day changes on a dime, and because of that we rarely see threads grow and become longer term topics of discussion, if they're not simple bursts of outrage. This is not one of those threads. When CCP realizes that the skill tree is the next thing on the workbench to fix, and communicates as such, I hope people flock to this thread to add to the discussion. Until that point in time I'll be slowly (but steadily) adding content to the thread, hopefully with a lot of help from the rest of the community - it'd be really boring and obnoxious if I were the only one posting. If EVE has taught me anything, it's that the best way to convince CCP is with a large common consensus and a lot of respectful posting. So far... Let's just say I'm impressed.
This is exactly my line of thinking, the more potential problems we prevent now the less we have fix later.
Now, as for the weaponry tree. I like your "Tech Lines" idea but it looks rather shallow, especially compared to your new one. I think your new one runs a little too deep though, so this is an attempt to merge the two. With my own little twist... ;)
The basic principle is Technology > Main Weapon (+ Sidearm) > Specialist Weapon(s).
First you unlock the type of technology, just like in Tech Lines although though I've split Hybrid into Plasma and Rail. I did this to keep the Hybrid branch from having twice the options of the other two main trees, Projectile and Laser. After one or two levels in the desired technology you unlock the sidearm for that technology, to give the player a taste of what is to come. At level 3 or above in technology you unlock the main weapon, the Scrambler Rifle for Laser, the Swarm Launcher for Missile, the Assault Rifle for Plasma, the Combat Rifle for Projectile and the Rail Rifle for Rail. The latter two are yet to be released but I assume they would be released before any major changes to the skill tree or done but if not there could easily be a placeholder skill for the time being. Now, after gaining a couple of levels in the main weapon you start unlocking the various specialist weapons for each technology. I'm leaving the debate open as to which weapons should require more points in the main skill.
I realize that this could promote the "AR 514" sentiment that we're seeing right now on the forums, but given that the concept of the assault rifle is sort of a jack-of-all-trades weapon and the fact that its the workhorse of every army in the world today I'm okay with that. Once the two unreleased versions (Combat rifle, Rail rifle) come out there will at least be some variety.
This would also make sure that everyone, sniper, machinegunners, cannoneers ,shotgunners etc. would have access to at least an ADV-level assault rifle. This in my mind would make people more likely to have a "general infantry" loadout when their main specialist weapon isn't appropriate. CQC for snipers and open fields for shotgunners for example.
Edit: Another advantage is that though it promotes general AR use, the more you skill into the main weapon the more weapons you unlock. This would make it easier to try a new weapon, as in order to unlock it you improve your main.
In the interest of readability I'm leaving out the Upgrades and Explosives branches. I pretty much agree with the ones you posted anyway.
Here's the "tree", the arrows show which skill unlocks the next tier. It's a little hard to read but I think it adequately describes my idea.
Row 1 Weaponry >
Row 2 Laser > Missile > Plasma > Projetile > Railgun >
Row 3 Scrambler Rifle (Laser) > Scrambler Pistol (Laser) Swarm Launcher (Missile) > Flaylock Pistol (Missile) Assault Rifle (Plasma) > Combat Rifle (not yet released, Projectile) > Submachine Gun (Projectile) Rail Rifle (not yet released, Rail) >
Row 4 Laser Rifle (Laser) Mass Driver (Missile) Plasma Cannon (Plasma) Shotgun (Plasma) Heavy Machine Gun (Projectile) Forge Gun (Railgun) Sniper Rifle (Railgun)
I've placed the Swarm Launcher before the Mass Driver simply because I think the Swarm is far more important, but I realize that the Mass Driver could be considered a main weapon.
/Essay 514 |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 12:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
I made my own tree, refer to my previous post (the long-ass one) to see what goes where. It's not as fancy as J-Lewis' but it works, I think...
http://i.imgur.com/BpSv7FL.jpg
Laser: Orange Missile: Red Plasma: Green Projectile: Grey Railgun: Blue
The X's show where the Combat and Rail rifles would be. The S's look a little suspect, but they're supposed to know the (currently available) sidearms. |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
65
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 14:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
J-Lewis wrote:A bit of constructive criticism if I may...
By all means... ;)
Quote:It's fine to have Rails and Blasters together - just like rockets (flaylock) and guided missiles (swarm launcher) are the same group. Each group has two technologies within it.
Additionally, each race uses two types of weaponry... As you may guess, the missing group is drones.
So to sum it up by groups:
Amarr: Lasers and Drones.
Caldari: Hybrids and Missiles.
Gallente: Hybrids and Drones.
Minmatar: Projectiles and Missiles.
And breaking it into individual technologies: Amarr: Beam/Scrambler Lasers, many sets of lighter drones.
Caldari: Railguns and Blasters, Guided Missiles and Rockets.
Gallente: Blasters and Railguns, fewer sets of heavier drones.
Minmatar: Autocanons and Artillery, Rockets and Guided Missiles.
The only reason the Hybrid group seems overpopulated is because it's the most completed of them all. Much in the same way as Gallente and Caldari vehicles, the first and most often added weapons in DUST development were Caldari/Gallente, so it's pretty obvious why Hybrids is the most populated group.
Yeah, I don't know much about EvE, so I put it in terms I understand...
I guess now that I think about it in those terms, I guess I could join some of trees together more.
Quote:How do you progress from row 3 to row 4? Does the Scrambler Rifle unlock the Laser Rifle? Seems confusing. In particular, this is what stops me from being able to make a fully fleshed out tree to put into the OP.
Yes, you level the main weapon. If you level the Assault rifle (Plasma) to level 2 you unlock the Shotgun, at level 4 the Plasma Cannon and so. The numbers are just an example.
Quote:I'm also interested in why you think the tree was one layer too deep. I think that's about all though.
I think that most players have a preferred type of weapon that they want to skill into first. A weapon that regardless of which shooter they're playing they try or at least want to try first. Some want shotguns, others want machineguns and so on, and I think that putting specialist weapons like those too deep in a tree can cause some frustration in a player. It will also in my mind, lead to that when the player finally unlocks it he will stick to it no matter what. Should it be underwhelming the disappointment may lead the player to quit for feeling like it was a waste of time. |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
65
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 15:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
I've thought about it a bit more and here's a revised version, using the same four technologies you had in "Tech Lines".
http://i.imgur.com/LIymBJw.jpg
Row 1 Weaponry
Row 2 Hybrid Laser Missile Projectile
Row 3 Assault Rifle Rail Rifle (x) Scrambler Rifle Scrambler Pistol (s) Swarm Launcher Flaylock Pistol (s) Mass Driver Combat Rifle (x) Submachine Gun (s)
Row 4 Plasma Cannon Shotgun Sniper Rifle Forge Gun Laser Rifle HMG |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
68
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 17:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
J-Lewis wrote:This weekend's updates: VL'S MODIFIED TECH LINES - by Vulcanus Lightbringer Pros: Only adds one skill per weapon. Paths of least resistance. Encouraged diversification. Breeds more adaptive players. Compatible with current "no multiple prerequisites" policy. No SP sinks. Good sense of progression. Cons: The tree becomes more complicated the more weapons are added. Only really an option once we have more weapons to flesh out the branches (feels very incomplete currently). Notes: See posts 46 through 50 on page 3.
Cool!
2 things though; Why is the Flaylock in Missile while the Mass Driver is in Projectile? Do they operate in different ways? And I'd replace the "Missile Rifle" spot with the Swarm Launcher as I think it's quite unlikely that we ever see anything that would equate to a "Missile Rifle".
Other than that, good stuff! |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
71
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 20:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
I read up on the Flaylock and whaddaya know. It even says in the description that it's a missile weapon. The more you know...
I never considered having an anti-infantry missile weapon but hey, more content is always good. Right? |
|
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 09:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
In the interest of keeping the discussion alive, I thought about how the current skilltree could be improved but with the least amount of work. As much as I want one of the trees that we've come up with in this thread I don't think they're realistic, at least in the short-term.
So I did this: http://i.imgur.com/fKnTL3m.jpg
For reference, here is the current tree: http://wiki.dust514.info/images/6/63/Skill_tree_weaponry.png
All I did was move all the weapon upgrades (except proficiency) to the Handheld Weapon Upgrade branch. I also added an Advanced Upgrades skill that unlocks Fitting Optimization and Reload Speed.
This tiny change, comparative to the other trees in this thread, would in my mind encourage some diversification, or at least not discourage it as much as the current tree does.
Row 1 Weaponry
Row 2 Explosives Handheld Weapon Upgrade Heavy Weapon Operation Light Weapon Operation Sidearm Operation
Row 3 Demolitions Grenadier Ammo Capacity Upgrade Advanced Upgrades Sharpshooter Upgrade Forge Gun Operation Heavy Machinegun Operation Assault Rifle Operation Laser Rifle Operation Mass Driver Operation Plasma Cannon Operation Scrambler Rifle Operation Shotgun Operation Sniper Rifle Operation Swarm Launcher Operation Flaylock Pistol Operation Nova Knife Operation Scrambler Pistol Operation Submachine Gun Operation
Row 4 Fitting Optimization Upgrade Rapid Reload Upgrade Forge Gun Proficiency HMG Proficiency Assault Rifle Proficiency Laser Rifle Proficiency Mass Driver Proficiency Plasma Cannon Proficiency Scrambler Rifle Proficiency Shotgun Proficiency Sniper Rifle Proficiency Swarm Launcher Proficiency Flaylock Pistol Proficiency Nova Knife Proficiency Scrambler Pistol Proficiency Submachine Gun Proficiency |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
77
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 17:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
J-Lewis wrote:Yes, that would certainly be a more conservative approach. However, as I pointed out in the OP, the actual act of restructuring the skill tree is the easy part. One dev can do it in a day or two as long as the change doesn't require a redesign of the interface or system. Because the biggest difficulty is actually assigning a dev, there's no reason not to go all out so it doesn't have to be revisited (hopefully for a long time).
It's how it gets deployed that's the tricky part, because it will require some degree of SP respec, even if it's just for individual skills that get moved/removed. That requires design meetings, and without an Executive Producer it probably won't happen. Oh, and of course, there's the little fact that this topic hasn't garnered a lot of constant community pressure.
But who knows, I might get surprised one morning.
The best we can do is spread the word. Get people aware of the issue. Get people talking about the issue.
That's my point. A drastic change, like the ones on the first page require more "out-of-game" planning while a relatively minor change might seem more favourable. But I agree that if the skilltree is changed it should be changed completely.
Well, between weird hit detection, non-existent tutorial/training, FOTM-balancing and proto-stomping I'd say that a more esoteric issue like reworking the skilltree is pretty low on the communitys to-do list... |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
104
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 06:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
gargantuise aaron wrote:How has this not gotten a dev post? Atleast then saying they've saw and may or may not implement ideas? Not insulting devs just curious
I can think of three reasons.
1. They haven't seen it. 2. They've seen it, but don't want to change the skilltrees and responding to the thread would only bring disappointment to the players. 3. They've seen it, but don't have time for it right now. |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
106
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 13:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
J-Lewis wrote:Vulcanus Lightbringer wrote:gargantuise aaron wrote:How has this not gotten a dev post? Atleast then saying they've saw and may or may not implement ideas? Not insulting devs just curious I can think of three reasons. 1. They haven't seen it. 2. They've seen it, but don't want to change the skilltrees and responding to the thread would only bring disappointment to the players. 3. They've seen it, but don't have time for it right now. If CCP Wolfman's vehicle thread is anything to go by, they might be back on track - he mentions revamping the vehicle skills entirely (both structure and bonuses and stats). I just hope they do the same for infantry eventually. Here's to hoping he removes tiers at the same time.
Maybe we should write Wolfman instead of Santa come december... |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
113
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zan Azikuchi wrote:New Idea: How about we create 2 different structures, both essentially the same but uses different ideas, using 6 idealistic palette's, 2 infantry, 2 vehicles, and 2 skills, basically what we do is we put some ideas into column A, and 2nd really good idea in column B, when we have enough ideas to fill both structures (One infantry, vehicle, and skill for each) we review, revise and tweak the BEST Structure!
I assume you're talking about upgrades. Maybe it's just early in the morning here but I don't really understand what you mean. An example would be nice.
Speaking of upgrades, what if instead of having a completely separate branch each technology (or as in Spademan's recent example, race) gets their own upgrade branch? It makes sense that a laser weapon would have different upgrades than a projectile weapon.
So it would look something like LASER > (branch 1) UPGRADES > "various upgrades", (branch 2) Scrambler rifle, Scrambler pistol, Laser Rifle for example. |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
All this talk about upgrades got me thinking about adapting my modified tech lines tree.
The picture is quite small, but the tree itself is enormous.
http://i.imgur.com/ofqowUC.jpg
Oh, and I don't expect a dropbox for this. It's just too big, all did was add an upgrade branch to each technology and I moved AV weapons ahead one step and heavy weapons back one.
Row 1 Weaponry
Row 2 Explosives Hybrid Laser Missile Projectile
Row 3 Demolitions Grenadier Railgun Upgrades "Bolt Pistol" "Rail Rifle" Plasma Upgrades "Ion Pistol" Assault Rifle Plasma Cannon Laser Upgrades Scrambler Pistol Scrambler Rifle Missile Upgrades Flaylock Pistol "Missile Rifle" Swarm Launcher Projectile Upgrades "Projectile Pistol" "Combat Rifle"
Row 4 Railgun Upgrade #1 Advanced Railgun Upgrades Railgun Upgrade #2 Nova Knife "Magsec SMG" Sniper Rifle Forge Gun Plasma Upgrade #1 Advanced Plasma Upgrades Plasma Upgrade #2 Shotgun Laser Upgrade #1 Advanced Laser Upgrades Laser Upgrade #2 Laser Rifle Missile Upgrade #1 Advanced Missile Upgrades Missile Upgrade #2 Projectile Upgrade #1 Advanced Projectile Upgrades Projectile Upgrade #2 Submachine GUn "Precision Rifle" Mass Driver Heavy Machinegun
Row 5 Railgun Upgrade #3 Railgun Upgrade #4 Plasma Upgrade #3 Plasma Upgrade #4 Laser Upgrade #3 Laser Upgrade #4 Missile Upgrade #3 Missile Upgrade #4 Projectile Upgrade #3 Projectile Upgrade #4
Note: I added all the unreleased weapons from the wiki. |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
149
|
Posted - 2014.01.08 15:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Maybe it will, but given the outrage regarding the potential new suit bonuses I wouldn't bet on it. |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
149
|
Posted - 2014.01.08 16:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
One can always hope. |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic
158
|
Posted - 2014.01.09 14:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
J-Lewis wrote:To be honest, the new suit bonuses look a million times better than what we used to* have (at least to me). It's not so much the actual bonuses, but rather that they are consistent across races.
On the downside, the addition of racial suits and the Magsec SMG and Bolt Pistol will add another 10 million SP to the weaponry tree alone.
I don't think the skill tree will be tweaked at the same time as these items are added, unfortunately.
*read: currently
Given that the bonuses aren't final (supposedly) I've yet to decide whether I like them or not. And no, it probably won't be reworked.
Sole Fenychs wrote:The links to the redesigns don't seem to work. I tried the first two in the second post.
ORIGINAL DROPSUIT COMMAND TREE and RACIAL SUIT LINES? They work for me.
As for discussing possible new skilltrees, Spademans tree has grown on me (pun intended). It's easy to understand yet quite robust and future-proof. |
|
|
|