I did a thread a while back about Generalising the Skill Trees at the Lower End and still believe it to be a good potential revamp.

Basically you would have the first nodes of the skill trees be the most basic categories - i.e. Dropsuit Command > Light/Medium/Heavy dropsuit. These nodes give access to all the racial variants of the lower level basic frames, STD and maybe ADV and possibly even proto but only for the basic frames. In order to use specialisations like the assault or sentinel, you have to skill into the next nodes which would be where the racial splits come in. So:

DS Command > Frames > Racials > Further Specialisations

A similar setup could be used for Weaponary: (using rifles as an example)

Weaponary > Light > Rifles (covers meta 1-3 for AR, ScR and other racial rifles) > AR (meta 4+ for individual weapons) > AR specialisations (sharpshooter, etc.)

This system would simplify the skill tree immensely, as well as allowing people to try out different racial variants without having to spend large amounts of SP in something they might not like but maintains the advantages of specialising at the higher ends. As an added benefit, when new racial variants of weapons and dropsuits become available this would allow people to easily move across to them whilst allowing them some good similar options to use in the meantime, while their racial desires are unavailable.

The downside, particularly to weapons but also dropsuits currently, is that some routes would provide a great deal of options, while others would only provide one. e.g. Medium frames would give 4 racial frames to choose from but Heavy frames would only give 1. However this would only be an issue until the racial variants are released and as mentioned as an upside, heavies would be able to play as the amarr and then use any racial heavy frame instantly when it is released (but not the sentinel/commando specialisations).

I support the idea of making specializations global to make cross training more valuable. If I want to operate a logistics dropsuit, I should only need training (skill points) into operating a logistics dropsuit (a general logistics skill book) and the racial dropsuit (a general racial medium dropsuit skill book). This means if I spec into Amarr logi, I should only need Gallente medium dropsuit operation 3 to be able to operate a Gallente logi as efficiently as my Amarr logi.

Also, let me provide an observation: you said it would be over 300 million SP in weaponry alone when it gets finished. I've been unsubbed from EVE for a couple months now so I can't remember correctly anymore, but the best clone one could ever get in EVE retains something above 300 million SP for a cost of 90 million ISK. And that is getting level 5 in every single skill in EVE.

Due to this observation, I support your need to change the trees because there will be more skills in Dust than in EVE, and most of them will be duplicates!

I want to add that the old skill tree was actually better in terms of generalization. You had a single skill to increase range in all light weapons, a single skill to increase ammo on all light weapons, a single skill to increase reload speed on all light weapons, etc. We need more generalization, as it allows players to skill into different items more easily, and diversification is the key to surviving in the future. Nature and evolution (I'm sorry if you don't believe in this) understand this concept: climate change is bound to happen and a species with enough diversification in its genes will survive. Dust is no different: nerfs can always be expected, and being specialized into different weapons will get you through any nerf.

I like this, but I would change Medium and Light so that Medium is first. The second row would then contain Logistics, Light, Heavy and Assault. This would allow players to skill into a more general role first, then branch into either Light or Heavy, which are more specialized.

For reference, it would look something like this:

Row 1:
Medium Dropsuits

Row 2:
Logistics
Assault
Light Dropsuits
Heavy Dropsuits

Row 3:
Scout
Pilot
Sentinel
Commando

It's not very visual but I hope you get the idea.

No offense, but you have a lot of passive skills that promote curbstomping. RoF and Range increasing through skills encourage a SP > SKill gap, similar to the situation we had in Chromosome.

There's nothing wrong with things that increase range and such, but I think something like that should be tied to a suit bonus rather than a character. That way it's not something that's always on. Think of dropsuits as the control that dictates what a player uses and the role they want to fill on the field. Take the sharpshooter suit idea in my topic- the suit gets a range bonus, but has to give up close range combat effectiveness.

The on+¦y thing that I would change about this is to split the Hybrid category into Hybrid-Plasma (Assault Rifle, Plasma Cannon, Shotgun) and Hybrid-Railgun (Sniper Rifle, Forge Gun).

I'ma just throw in an idea I've had bobbling around in my head for the Dropsuit Skills.
Here it is:
Get rid of the starting skill, dropsuit command, it's only a sink with no real service.
Change the next tier of skills to Amarr Dropsuits, Gallente Dropsuits, Minmatar Dropsuits and Caldari Dropsuits.
My Idea is that these would give you access to all basic suits, for example:
Skilling into Amarr dropsuits would unlock standard light, medium and heavy dropsuits at level 1, advanced at 3, and pro at 5.
From here, one would specialise, for example, I could choose Amarr logistics, Amarr scout, or Amarr Sentinel.

I await your feedback on why this is a bad idea.

ALTERNATE RACIAL SUIT LINES - by Vulcanus Lightbringer.
Pros/Cons: About the same as Racial Suit Lines.
Notes: See post #11. Alternate take on the Racial Suit Lines.

There are some skills that should not be considered including (or re-including), like the sharpshooter range increase skill. This was removed because it simply became a skill that everyone had to have. Same as skilling weaponary to level 5 was a must have in old builds too. If there is a skill that is so useful and affects pretty much everything in the game, it's not appropriate. A ROF increase skill for instance would affect most weapons in the game (pretty much the only one it wouldn't is the plasma cannon), so everyone would get it.

There are a number of skills that are currently weapon specific but should be moved back to general core skills like in your tech tree idea. Maybe there should be a Weapons Upgrades Skills tree like the Dropsuit Upgrades skills tree - afterall, we don't have dropsuit upgrade skills tied to specific suits; why should weapons upgrade skills be tied to specific weapons?

I made a vehicle skill tree feedback thread here. Go check it out.

One thing I would consider adding would be a "related skills" bonus that would allow you to receive slight SP requirement drop for certain skills related to other skills.

For example, take armor plates and a Gallente dropsuit since they specialize in armor over shields. If I put my SP into the a Gallente dropsuit then I could get a SP discount on my armor plates. Using imaginary numbers for the sake of math and time, say the first level of the dropsuit and armor plate are 200,000 and 100,000, respectively. I spend my 200,000 SP to get the first level of the dropsuit and then I see that the armor plates have dropped to 95,000 SP to unlock. I still have a choice between armor plates and shield extenders, but I see that armor plates costs less, so I'm more likely to skill into that. This could be used for all kinds of things like Heavy Suits and Forge Gun/Heavy Machine Gun or Logistics and Uplinks or anything that is reasonably related to another. I think that this could not only eliminate some repetitive grinding but also give new players an unique twist in their Dust experience that I haven't seen in any other FPS while also being a subtle guide for the new mercs through the very complicated and overwhelming skill tree. It would also reward specialization and help people try out different combinations without being so punishing on overall SP. There would be limitations on how much it discounts, maybe depending on the level of the skill (5% of a skill at level 5 with an 8x multiplier, like the Sentinel or Commando, is a ton of SP, so we can reduce the %). I apologize for the random SP numbers, I just didn't have access to the right numbers and wanted to get this post out quickly. Others can debate percentages and specifics, but I just thought it would be an interesting idea in a revised skill tree.

MODIFIED EVE ONLINE MODEL - by J-Lewis
Pros: No new skills need to be added with new weapons - very future proof. Clear structure. Paths of least resistance. Encouraged diversification. Breeds more adaptive players. Compatible with current "no multiple prerequisites" policy. No SP sinks.
Cons: Slightly more complex than TECH LINES, as weapons are grouped into sub-technology. Bonuses need to be moved to the individual weapons for specializations.
Note: Categorizes weapons by technology, groups all the upgrade skills into Weapon Upgrades branch, specialization skills are grouped into sub-technologies (e.g. Blasters & Railguns for Hybrid).

I understand what you're saying about these skills being more useful to some than others but at the end of the day they are useful to everyone, so everyone will have to have them.

Your example with the heavies is flawed because that skill is only useful to heavies, not anyone else. A range increasing skill would affect all weapons - granted it would give the most increase to snipers but getting an extra couple of meters on your SMG is an amazing bonus.

I also get what you're saying about the dropsuit skills and should say that I think the core skills that give you HP/CPU/PG buffs to base stats should go because they're just as universal and useful as the old weaponary skill. Everything should be tied to some specific category, not just applied to everything in the game because when that happens everyone gets it and it makes the skill pointless existing at all - just give everyone the buff inately and get rid of the skill entirely.

Now what we need are more weapon type specific skills, like the current sharpshooter reducing spread/dispersion or whatever they call it. That's only useful for ARs, and SMGs (and HMGs? I dunno) but would be much better served as a standalone core weapon skill that affects all weapons with spread. There should be more skills like this; maybe a heatsink skill or a feedback damage reduction skill.

Good to know you're still at it, just one comment on the new proposed weapon tree, it seems like it would take the heavy's a bit too long and too much unnecessary sp to get their weapons

Can't believe I've been missing this thread. Nice work, J-Lewis.
CCP needs to redesign the skill tree but unfortunately I don't foresee that happening anytime soon.

You've hit quite a number of problems square on the head (skill overlap, SP sinks, equidistant specialization) and offered an appealing alternative to the mess of a skill tree we're currently using. You're suggestion promotes healthy growth within a discipline without penalizing players for wanting to try new things or moving away from a certain weapon or suit.

Back in Chromosome the common complaint against the skill tree was the necessity of certain skills and therefore their redundancy. CCP went completely overboard in their segregation of all skills for racial variants and weapons. To make matters worse, skill multipliers had been increased further compounding this problem.

To be perfectly honest, this is one of the very few choices CCP has made that has genuinely disappointed me as a gamer and as a customer. We asked for content and we were given higher SP costs. I feel as though this is simply an underhanded ruse to sell us boosters. Welp. I continue to buy them, at 20m SP, not because there is anything I even want to skill into but because I want this game to succeed.

CCP, pro tip; no one likes being coerced. If players could more easily skill into a specialization and not feel buyer's remorse when leaving that weapon or suit behind they would be more willing to buy future boosters.

Sadly, while all this is important, there are more pressing matters to be rioting over. If we ever get the aiming core mechanics ironed out I suppose I'll be spamming the forums Planetside2 bomber style for the skill tree to get more attention.

Good work with all this! Hope to see more of your posts on here.

I made my own tree, refer to my previous post (the long-ass one) to see what goes where. It's not as fancy as J-Lewis' but it works, I think...

http://i.imgur.com/BpSv7FL.jpg

Laser: Orange
Missile: Red
Plasma: Green
Projectile: Grey
Railgun: Blue

The X's show where the Combat and Rail rifles would be. The S's look a little suspect, but they're supposed to know the (currently available) sidearms.

Just a thought, you've included the weaponry skill tree but I don't think you included the mentioned Dropsuit tree, unless I missed it?

Dropsuit Command can be given a 1% bonus to turn it into a useful skill.
I think unlocking the sizes at 1, 2 and 3 instead of unlocking tiers would be better in this case.

But overall terrible valid idea. I think it might work out.

I'll throw it into the pot when I get a moment and see what comes out, if it looks good I'll add it to the OP.

just wanted to post to say I absolutely love this thread.

Also, as for the OP,

MODIFIED EVE
- definitely my favorite alternative to the current dropsuit tree, the prereqs aren't too bad, and I'm assuming it would require you to reach level 5 in a frame suit to be able to train the specialty skills. I would say that this would mean we should have higher multipliers for the frame suits to balance the SP and make it so you can't just burn through dropsuit skills and pick all of them up, but I like it way more than the current tree. There's no useless frame skils (IE any frame above 3 right now is wasted SP), it allows for crosstraining your role much easier, as in EVE, which gives people dedicated to a role more flexibility (like a scout that can go for minmatar CQC or gallente recon without blowing months of SP that just feel like a sink).

TECH LINES
- this makes way more sense than the current weapon tree, and would alleviate the boredom of specialization currently in DUST (why specialize if it means I have to grind through hours with the same guns and mods? that's boring. nobody wants to do that in a FPS, and it means that in pub matches, some games you will just underperform with no alternative. This is a huge difference between EVE and DUST right now. For starters, in EVE you can specialize into a career but still do different things with your ships and skills, and secondly, in EVE it's a lot less time intensive to get in a bunch of different hulls and fits. Not like DUST right now, specialization combined with power creep makes you feel pressured to go into a single role, single weapon, single fit build until you have like 10m SP. My one comment would be we should maybe keep sidearms and light/heavy (primary) weapons separate still

one comment would be, some of your proposed weapon upgrade skills are useless and/or OP. Like optimal range or falloff bonus, that's an imbalanced skill and could disrupt the way the game flows. After all this time CCP has spent modifying those values I think it's clear that they work very differently in a FPS than in EVE. Also they would make the current power creep problem in the STD to PROTO progression we currently have even worse. I mean, we could have alternatives, or more specialized skills that do similar things without altering optimal/falloff ranges, but only to certain classes of weapons. Tracking upgrades also seems silly for guns as CCP Wolfman is toying with removing suit based turn speed. Also turning speed is suit based, not weapon based at the moment. For vehicles, sure, but infantry doesn't work the same

VL'S MODIFIED TECH LINES - by Vulcanus Lightbringer
Pros: Only adds one skill per weapon. Paths of least resistance. Encouraged diversification. Breeds more adaptive players. Compatible with current "no multiple prerequisites" policy. No SP sinks. Good sense of progression.
Cons: The tree becomes more complicated the more weapons are added. Only really an option once we have more weapons to flesh out the branches (feels very incomplete currently).
Notes: See posts 46 through 50 on page 3.

SPADEMAN'S TREE - by Spademan
Pros: Paths of least resistance. Light and Mediums are cheap(er). Encouraged diversification. Breeds more adaptive players. Simple and easy to understand. Compatible with current "no multiple prerequisites" policy. We'll see more Heavies fielded.
Cons: Might unlock content too fast(!). We'll see more Heavies fielded.
Notes: See post #18.

Cool!

2 things though; Why is the Flaylock in Missile while the Mass Driver is in Projectile? Do they operate in different ways?
And I'd replace the "Missile Rifle" spot with the Swarm Launcher as I think it's quite unlikely that we ever see anything that would equate to a "Missile Rifle".

Other than that, good stuff!

Hey, J-Lewis, do you remember my vehicle skill tree thread? Can you make a visual representation of it? I'm not going bump it anytime soon but if I have to, the representation would help a lot.

In the interest of keeping the discussion alive, I thought about how the current skilltree could be improved but with the least amount of work. As much as I want one of the trees that we've come up with in this thread I don't think they're realistic, at least in the short-term.

So I did this: http://i.imgur.com/fKnTL3m.jpg

For reference, here is the current tree: http://wiki.dust514.info/images/6/63/Skill_tree_weaponry.png

All I did was move all the weapon upgrades (except proficiency) to the Handheld Weapon Upgrade branch. I also added an Advanced Upgrades skill that unlocks Fitting Optimization and Reload Speed.

This tiny change, comparative to the other trees in this thread, would in my mind encourage some diversification, or at least not discourage it as much as the current tree does.

That's my point. A drastic change, like the ones on the first page require more "out-of-game" planning while a relatively minor change might seem more favourable. But I agree that if the skilltree is changed it should be changed completely.

Well, between weird hit detection, non-existent tutorial/training, FOTM-balancing and proto-stomping I'd say that a more esoteric issue like reworking the skilltree is pretty low on the communitys to-do list...

I'd swap the drop suit tree to include racial and dropsuit classes separately.
All medium drop suits follow a certain functionality just the same as heavy and lights. If you know how to use an Amarr heavy why wouldn't you have some measure of competence with a Caldari, Gallente, or Minmatar heavy suit (other than them not existing yet).

The same holds true for suits belonging to a race as well. Gallente suits follow design theory specific to Gallente while Minmatar would use a different approach to their equipment.

We see this currently on the specialized suits and "Logistics Bonus" and "Minmatar dropsuit bonus" or whatever combination thereof. So here's my TERRIBLY MSPAINTED idea. https://www.dropbox.com/s/nwz185zntdojm60/Dropsuit%20Command%20Tree.png

To prevent Newbies from derping their skill points away and not being able to actually deploy a non militia suit I would say that a new character should begin with a rank in whatever racial drop suit command they originate from, DS Command 1, and Medium DS 1. Because whoever immortalized this new combatant sure as hell isn't going to not train them so there's a minimum return on investment.

It's recommend a similar approach for weapons grouping type and then racial but there's plenty of other ideas out there that make support skills make sense and I like that.

Have at it. Pretty sure there's no copyright on my weak ass MSpaint skill.

Any chance of getting some CPM support for this thread too?

Your name made me think a dev finally replied to this.

My idea's for weapon evolution, is that when you skill into say a rail weapon operation it would increase damage by 3% each level and unlock various weapons based on the level.

Level 1: Pistol, SMG, various other possible sidearm

Level 3: AR, Shotgun, SR, various other possible weapons of light category

Level 4: HMG, FG various other possible weapons

Same for Dropsuit, mainly because i've played many FPS RPG some have better aspects than Dust but mainly what im getting at is, you start small and grow big, I personally think that ALL the dropsuits should be more powerful than what they are and personally believe that the Light Suit should be the first suit you ever get,

Furthermore noted above more generalised bonuses would obviously be given to those of they're own race since it was that individual race that created the line of technology.

Now for the main idea: As you skill into and gain benefits in a weapon that weapons benefits would in turn bleed into other weapons of the same category. If a weapon like the Mass driver gained a 0.4 bonus to ammo (and was not Type specific) then ALL Types of the Mass driver would gain the 0.4 bonus (Level 5: 2 additional bullets). However each weapon and its categorial types will have different bonuses, and if done right would fix the Underpowered weapons of Dust 514!

What are your idea's is there anything I should improve on? (Other than representation).

I can think of three reasons.

1. They haven't seen it.
2. They've seen it, but don't want to change the skilltrees and responding to the thread would only bring disappointment to the players.
3. They've seen it, but don't have time for it right now.

This thread needs some blue tag.

I like many of the ideas here, and I choose think that CCP is working on some sort of restructuring - I feel I've read it somewhere... oh yeah, it was on their weekly reports listing something about worthless skills and what not. This also gives rumors to a possible respec in the future.

Regardless I think you should rename the thread and create a post as best you can to give visual representation to the subject matter. My business experience leads me to believe this would help. Remember -

1. Make it easy for your audience to get the info they want, a link defeats that purpose and all but the most dedicated move on.

2. Have the information up front. The reasons and proposal history can wait. If the organized information isn't readily available in 3 seconds the common browser will move on.

3. Title shift. The title advertises to the intellectual - many of the smart ones that think about these things - and you need attention. Think tank implies work and we subconsciously avoid that. Go for the quick reaction and quick comment to make it a hot topic. Making the title similar - as it is - to the others about skill re-balancing or class balancing or weapon balancing will lead more of your desired audience here. Those and logi v. assault threads are the most popular.

4. Visual appeal. Walls of text rarely accomplish anything. Stream lining phrasing to communicate only the essential to give a good white and black space flow increases the ability to read any post.

Incorporating these elements with in the first post should increase traffic. There are already some well named commentators out here. IF this doesn't help you will have lost nothing. If it does contact me for further advertisement representation. And, as this is my opinion fee free to insult my ideas, give me the finger, and tell me to get the hell out... gosh I love forums.

I simply get 404s.
It seems like a plus is added at the end of the url. For whatever reason.