DUST Search - [IMPERATIVE FEEDBACK] CCP you HAVE to fix this

Aeon Amadi wrote:

CCP Nullarbor wrote:

So as a few people have pointed out in this thread already that the academy itself is fine and actually meets our intended goal which is to provide a safe area to practice the first few games before being thrown in the deep end.

The problem is the deep end is very deep at the moment, and we need an improved matchmaking system to fix this. We are not happy with our current system and so are going back to the drawing board and creating a new matcher to provide more balanced teams. Think of it like a tier system but rather than discrete intervals of 0 - 10,000 WP then 10,000 - 30,000 WP etc we instead have a continuous sliding scale of difficulty and match players based on multiple criteria.

No ETA on delivering this just yet but it is a high priority (I am working on it as we speak).

Thanks so much Nullarbor.

Any changes youre thinking about as far as Faction Warfare? The new player slaughter is just as bad there, unfortunately.

What about a system like Eve in which only certain dropsuits can entire certain sites? Militia/Standard for one site class, allow advanced in for another and then finally Prototype for a no-limits applied style?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 1660	Posted - 2013.06.29 04:22:00 - [1] - Quote You HAVE to fix the Instant Battle Academy. There is absolutely no reason that New Players should be leaving the Academy after 10,000 WP. Theyre getting massacred. My corporation did a Faction Warfare match in which the enemy team were all using starter sets ( Frontline - Assault/Sniper/Abti-Armor ) and some of us actually stopped firing altogether because it was so badly outmatched. We Q-Synched, which gave us the advantage of organization but this was just slaughter. The final tally on their team was something akin to 07/93 with only the top five players landing kills. This is a PROBLEM. New Players DESPERATELY need more time in the Academy and access to Faction Warfare needs to be cut off to Academy players, this is just senseless. To confirm this I have an Alt Character who doesnt even have 600,000 SP and just cleared 10,000 WP and is already out ofthe Academy. This BADLY hurting new player retention and it doesnt give them any semblance of a chance.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 526	Posted - 2013.06.29 04:43:00 - [2] - Quote +1 The OP speaks blistering truth. Some of the guys in my corp have decided to make alts and try to reach out to these players. They would squad up with them and play. Some of the new players felt it proper to just jump in an LAV and run people over. They literally would say things like: "It's better to just use the LAV, and run them over. Best way to get kills." "My gun doesn't seem to do anything." "I'm aiming at him but it won't hit." "I'm going to skill into dropships because they seem really cool." So from this we are seeing: 1. They have no idea how gun ranges work in this game (and the game offers no information on it). 2. Many issues with aiming and hit detection remain. 3. In light of the first 2, new players are resorting to LAVs and playing bumper cars, just to score. 4. They have no idea what they should skill into... Dropships is a BAD way to spend your money and SP as a noob. That's just the tip of the iceberg. 10k WP later they leave academy, not even aware that they have "graduated", and get raped so hard (like in the match Aeon describes), that they quit. Problem? Oh yeah....
A B Ablabab The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 19	Posted - 2013.06.29 04:50:00 - [3] - Quote TBH im not even sure academy is the answer. I have an academy alt and on my last match I went 20/4 with a militia fit. New players need better education, and way less 'press [] to remove wall of text forever' Amazingly I feel this is even more of a problem in Dust than it is in EVE, which is notorious for it, because most people coming in to the game will be using a controller and will probably not chose to participate in the chat system. And honestly who uses voice in local? At least when everyone had a keyboard a more experienced player could lend advice, in an academy battle my only choice is point and shoot...
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 230	Posted - 2013.06.29 05:43:00 - [4] - Quote He camped there half of the match
Zatara Rought TeamPlayers EoN. 351	Posted - 2013.06.29 07:21:00 - [5] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: You HAVE to fix the Instant Battle Academy. There is absolutely no reason that New Players should be leaving the Academy after 10,000 WP. Theyre getting massacred. My corporation did a Faction Warfare match in which the enemy team were all using starter sets ( Frontline - Assault/Sniper/Abti-Armor ) and some of us actually stopped firing altogether because it was so badly outmatched. We Q-Synched, which gave us the advantage of organization but this was just slaughter. The final tally on their team was something akin to 07/93 with only the top five players landing kills. This is a PROBLEM. New Players DESPERATELY need more time in the Academy and access to Faction Warfare needs to be cut off to Academy players, this is just senseless. To confirm this I have an Alt Character who doesnt even have 600,000 SP and just cleared 10,000 WP and is already out ofthe Academy. This BADLY hurting new player retention and it doesnt give them any semblance of a chance. +1 (Should I +1 on my alts for effect?)
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1015	Posted - 2013.06.29 07:59:00 - [6] - Quote Academy breeds bad habits. When someone crouches 40 meters away and fires an AR at me while standing still as I'm charging my scrambler I know they are used to Academy matches. They don't know what a scrambler with 4-5 levels of proficiency can do
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 591	Posted - 2013.06.29 08:21:00 - [7] - Quote THe Academy is fine as is. What's needed is SOMEWHERE else to go after it besides going straight into Pub matches against high geared people. PvE Industry Both should be included as another means to 'get your feet wet' in the beginning and get skill points besides relentlessly grinding against vets.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 1370	Posted - 2013.06.29 09:10:00 - [8] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: THe Academy is fine as is. What's needed is SOMEWHERE else to go after it besides going straight into Pub matches against high geared people. PvE Industry Both should be included as another means to 'get your feet wet' in the beginning and get skill points besides relentlessly grinding against vets. Agreed. There needs to be something for new players to do that doesn't shove them up against vastly more experienced players, and with PvP only modes that will always happen.
Bhavesh Prajapat Doomslaying Democratic League 9	Posted - 2013.06.29 09:17:00 - [9] - Quote +1 Also newbies need more instructions, all they want to do is kill (I'm not going to lie, they can't). And they haven't even considered the importance of a NULL Cannon. The Academy needs to be more of a school not a secluded noob area. Bhavesh.
Echoist Fenrir's Wolves RUST415 15	Posted - 2013.06.29 09:29:00 - [10] - Quote Bhavesh Prajapat wrote: +1 Also newbies need more instructions, all they want to do is kill (I'm not going to lie, they can't). And they haven't even considered the importance of a NULL Cannon. The Academy needs to be more of a school not a secluded noob area. Bhavesh. Definitely Me and my corp mates end up just frustrated by blueberries not looking out for the obvious like enemy spawn pads that need to be destroyed or remote explosives that are waiting on the objective.

Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 336	Posted - 2013.06.29 10:46:00 - [11] - Quote Echoist wrote: Bhavesh Prajapat wrote: +1 Also newbies need more instructions, all they want to do is kill (I'm not going to lie, they can't). And they haven't even considered the importance of a NULL Cannon. The Academy needs to be more of a school not a secluded noob area. Bhavesh. Definitely Me and my corp mates end up just frustrated by blueberries not looking out for the obvious like enemy spawn pads that need to be destroyed or remote explosives that are waiting on the objective. Equally frustrating is when I join a match with my squad and 10/16 players on my team are n00bs, who though some try, they lack the power and surviveability to be able to contribute towards a win. Many simply gauge the difficulty of the match by the initial push; if the can not compete they go to the redline and fail at smiling. Meanwhile my squad and I are trying to go 6 vs 16. I can't blame the new guys for this, as I to remember how demoralizing it is to get stomped that badly. It is difficult to try to go on comms in team chat to instruct these guys when you're coordinating with your squad. Besides many don't even have comms activated so I couldn't anyway.
Zhul Varju Templars Old Guard 1	Posted - 2013.06.29 17:00:00 - [12] - Quote I hardly ever log in anymore due to the protostomping. There have been many threads about the poor matchmaking, and so far I have never seen one answered by CCP. :(
Buster Friently Rosen Association 788	Posted - 2013.06.29 17:13:00 - [13] - Quote Zhul Varju wrote: I hardly ever log in anymore due to the protostomping. There have been many threads about the poor matchmaking, and so far I have never seen one answered by CCP. :( You don't look very hard then. They have mentioned that better matchmaking is one of their highest priorities. A better matchmaker needs to be in place ASAP. This will be one of the very few things, like PVE, that will truly help the new player experience, especially once they've left the academy. I don't know if it will be in 1.2 or not. The patch notes don't list it, but elsewhere CCP has stated that better matchmaking would be in the next patch. I guess we'll know on Tuesday or thereabouts.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1226	Posted - 2013.06.29 17:15:00 - [14] - Quote +1 OP very well said. The whole New Player Experience needs polish but that's a long term fix and something needs to be done in the interim as well. 10,000 WP is proving to be significantly less than needed for the Academy to server it's intended purpose. 0.02 ISK Cross
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 534	Posted - 2013.06.29 18:03:00 - [15] - Quote Well, the way I've figured it is that us, the more experienced players, can do our part to "carebear" (just a little) the new players. A number of corps, including my own, (DUST University as well, if memory serves) are going into the Academy to attempt to show new players the ropes. This will support Dust's player retention, and help such corps in the recruitment area. Only thing we need are systems in place to allow, support, and encourage training. We don't have that currently. We need CCP to provide this. It's a huge task for CCP to try and make a training system that gets new players on par with 10m+ SP players. Dare I say it's impossible. So we can't expect that. First things first, I would encourage that while a new player is in Academy, non-infantry and vehicle skills be locked away. Vehicle Command, Vehicle Upgrades, Turret Operation, and Corporations. Those skill trees should be totally blocked out, UNTIL they are out of Academy. They should be told when they will be out of Academy, and a leaderboard of the graduates for the day should be provided for potential recruiters. This way, new players will feel like the Dust universe is literally trying to absorb them. (What other game makes new players feel WANTED?) They should have a training simulator in their Merc Quarters, and the Corp should have a Combat Simulator for it's members. Case and point, CCP doesn't need to train the new players... We do. All we need are the tools with which to do it; Training simulators, Practice ranges, PVE missions, custom matches against friendly corps.)
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 141	Posted - 2013.06.29 18:10:00 - [16] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: THe Academy is fine as is. What's needed is SOMEWHERE else to go after it besides going straight into Pub matches against high geared people. PvE Industry Both should be included as another means to 'get your feet wet' in the beginning and get skill points besides relentlessly grinding against vets. what we need now is people fighting robots? i think not.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 5471	Posted - 2013.06.29 18:27:00 - [17] - Quote I was thinking tiered academy but when speaking about things with CCP Nullarbor and how it was laid out in the summary roadmap https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=988205#post988205 and how he wants to do it. I thought the better of it and say remove it all together and let the NPE team do their thing while CCP Null tackles the matchmaking.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 1677	Posted - 2013.06.29 18:59:00 - [18] - Quote What about a voluntary mentor/guide system? Players create an alt thats designated as a mentor/guide and cant attain SP/WP so they stay inthe Academy to show new players the ropes without having to make a new character everytime they leave the Academy? Give them a highlighted name in Purple or something to catch the eye of new players and special tags. Sort of like ISD but more of aneducational thing.
Kadar Saeleid M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command 1	Posted - 2013.06.29 19:47:00 - [19] - Quote I really like the idea of the combat simulators, because it gives corporations the means to be more invested in their members. It even sounds like something you'd find in the lore. Giving us an area where we can train our guys in small unit tactics would make life so much easier!
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 492	Posted - 2013.06.29 20:20:00 - [20] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: What about a voluntary mentor/guide system? Players create an alt thats designated as a mentor/guide and cant attain SP/WP so they stay inthe Academy to show new players the ropes without having to make a new character everytime they leave the Academy? Give them a highlighted name in Purple or something to catch the eye of new players and special tags. Sort of like ISD but more of aneducational thing. I agree that humans are the best tool to teach other humans and proposed something akin to your suggestion here. Beeing alone is the worst thing that can happen to a newbie in EVE and it seems to me that is the case in Dust aswell.

IceShifter Childhaspawn DUST University Ivy League 87	Posted - 2013.06.29 20:42:00 - [21] - Quote When you watch them, they only care about shooting, I suppose this has been ingrained in them from other FPS titles. We have tried various methods to interact in academy. n00bs who do not activate mic or watch the chat channels are likely not to notice or acknowledge their existence. It isn't until they ask themselves, "What am I doing wrong?" that they can be taught. That is where we help.
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 492	Posted - 2013.06.29 20:50:00 - [22] - Quote IceShifter Childhaspawn wrote: When you watch them, they only care about shooting, I suppose this has been ingrained in them from other FPS titles. We have tried various methods to interact in academy. n00bs who do not activate mic or watch the chat channels are likely not to notice or acknowledge their existence. It isn't until they ask themselves, "What am I doing wrong?" that they can be taught. That is where we help. Not to spam this thread with my ideas but could you take a look at this suggestion of mine? I actually made this with corps like Dust Uni in mind and would be interested in your guys opinions on it.
Zyrus Amalomyn Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 209	Posted - 2013.06.29 20:56:00 - [23] - Quote They should not have released this without PvE.
Michael Thanis Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2013.06.29 22:04:00 - [24] - Quote To extend on what Jathniel said, we really need a simulator or some form of training for new players. I played planetside for a brief time and I noticed that the VR training systems were actually useful, though a bit empty. That's kind of what we need. A system where users can simply test out weapons, improve their aim, experiment with new vehicles, and gain some starter experience points without risking their necks. We'd likely need three different VR "modules". A gun range for testing new weapons, a vehicle track and firing range for tanks and LAV's, and a battle simulator which includes pop-up labels and explanations for each major battlefield installation and building. Using these would provide skill points at a reduced rate, but no ISK or warpoints. That way trainees can learn the ropes of the game without being forced out of the academy or abusing the system to farm ISK for free. These "modules" should be limited to the academy itself but maybe in the future corporations could buy them, granting access to all members of the corporation. In this way we can also push new graduates to join corporations, and corporations can enjoy the benefit of new members and a way to train anyone who has been on an extended leave.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1829	Posted - 2013.06.29 23:16:00 - [25] - Quote Sad thing is, some things are usually used better in combat academy. I have yet to see a redline sniper in the academy Snipers move to where they need to be, instead of sitting where it's safe Almost all LAVs have a gunner

CCP Nullarbor C C P C C P Alliance 1521	Posted - 2013.06.29 23:25:00 - [26] - Quote So as a few people have pointed out in this thread already that the academy itself is fine and actually meets our intended goal which is to provide a safe area to practice the first few games before being thrown in the deep end. The problem is the deep end is very deep at the moment, and we need an improved matchmaking system to fix this. We are not happy with our current system and so are going back to the drawing board and creating a new matcher to provide more balanced teams. Think of it like a tier system but rather than discrete intervals of 0 - 10,000 WP then 10,000 - 30,000 WP etc we instead have a continuous sliding scale of difficulty and match players based on multiple criteria. No ETA on delivering this just yet but it is a high priority (I am working on it as we speak).

Zatara Rought TeamPlayers EoN. 364	Posted - 2013.06.29 23:34:00 - [27] - Quote +1 for nullabor making the rounds and giving us hope.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 1692	Posted - 2013.06.29 23:54:00 - [28] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: So as a few people have pointed out in this thread already that the academy itself is fine and actually meets our intended goal which is to provide a safe area to practice the first few games before being thrown in the deep end. The problem is the deep end is very deep at the moment, and we need an improved matchmaking system to fix this. We are not happy with our current system and so are going back to the drawing board and creating a new matcher to provide more balanced teams. Think of it like a tier system but rather than discrete intervals of 0 - 10,000 WP then 10,000 - 30,000 WP etc we instead have a continuous sliding scale of difficulty and match players based on multiple criteria. No ETA on delivering this just yet but it is a high priority (I am working on it as we speak). Thanks so much Nullarbor. Any changes youre thinking about as far as Faction Warfare? The new player slaughter is just as bad there, unfortunately. What about a system like Eve in which only certain dropsuits can entire certain sites? Militia/Standard for one site class, allow advanced in for another and then finally Prototype for a no-limits applied style?
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 524	Posted - 2013.06.29 23:57:00 - [29] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: So as a few people have pointed out in this thread already that the academy itself is fine and actually meets our intended goal which is to provide a safe area to practice the first few games before being thrown in the deep end. The problem is the deep end is very deep at the moment, and we need an improved matchmaking system to fix this. We are not happy with our current system and so are going back to the drawing board and creating a new matcher to provide more balanced teams. Think of it like a tier system but rather than discrete intervals of 0 - 10,000 WP then 10,000 - 30,000 WP etc we instead have a continuous sliding scale of difficulty and match players based on multiple criteria. No ETA on delivering this just yet but it is a high priority (I am working on it as we speak). Thanks so much Nullarbor. Any changes youre thinking about as far as Faction Warfare? The new player slaughter is just as bad there, unfortunately. What about a system like Eve in which only certain dropsuits can entire certain sites? Militia/Standard for one site class, allow advanced in for another and then finally Prototype for a no-limits applied style? This.. I applaud your motivations... but that kind of system doesn't sound like it will really help with a playerbase of 4000. The system might work better if we get more players down the road... but what we really need is gear restricted game modes. Academy - Militia/Standard Instant Battle - Advanced FW/PC - Prototype. This kind of system will work no matter how many players are on at a certain time and will greatly help new players get competitive quickly, as adv gear is relatively easy to acquire.

CCP Nullarbor C C P C C P Alliance 1532	Posted - 2013.06.29 23:59:00 - [30] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: So as a few people have pointed out in this thread already that the academy itself is fine and actually meets our intended goal which is to provide a safe area to practice the first few games before being thrown in the deep end. The problem is the deep end is very deep at the moment, and we need an improved matchmaking system to fix this. We are not happy with our current system and so are going back to the drawing board and creating a new matcher to provide more balanced teams. Think of it like a tier system but rather than discrete intervals of 0 - 10,000 WP then 10,000 - 30,000 WP etc we instead have a continuous sliding scale of difficulty and match players based on multiple criteria. No ETA on delivering this just yet but it is a high priority (I am working on it as we speak). Thanks so much Nullarbor. Any changes youre thinking about as far as Faction Warfare? The new player slaughter is just as bad there, unfortunately. What about a system like Eve in which only certain dropsuits can entire certain sites? Militia/Standard for one site class, allow advanced in for another and then finally Prototype for a no-limits applied style? Queueing for faction warfare would be great if we can provide it, maybe even full team sync although this is particularly difficult to get working correctly. The problem with divisions like certain classes of items is it splits up the pool of available players for the matching system to work effectively. So customization comes at the cost of reduced match quality or potentially long waiting times. This is all part of our experimentation at the moment though and balanced matches is the primary success criteria.




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