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Why don't people want passive skilling only?

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Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 240	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:08:00 - [1] - Quote We're mercenaries, we're supposed to fight for money and power, not SP. But that's exactly what we're doing, playing for SP match after match after match with ISK being something on the side. Sure, you can say that "newbies will never be able to catch up!". But in the current system, can they? No, they can't, so what's the difference? Once they reach 7-14mil SP, they have reached the ceiling of a certain class (and 40%-50% of that is small 3% buffs) and can only get wider from there, not taller. EVE has used this system for years and it works. I do not see why it can't apply for this game. "But people won't log in!" If CCP implements the same training queue as EVE does, then they will. Which also gives me an idea, have a booster than increases the length of the training queue. "But people won't play!" The argument is funny because it shows that the only reason people play is to get SP. We should play because its fun, because we want ISK, or because metagame. Any other arguments? P.S I'm not against gaining ANY SP during matches. Maybe have the current passive skilling + active skilling all go into passive, and have the current system of 1WP = 1SP up to 1000. I know its probably hard to grasp, because we have been fighting for months now just to get SP, but I believe changing it would be for the better. Why?: Removing active skilling removes SP grinding.
Phantomnom Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 579	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:12:00 - [2] - Quote I probabluy won't log in until the SP refresh again. Just sayin',
Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 240	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:13:00 - [3] - Quote Phantomnom wrote: I probabluy won't log in until the SP refresh again. Just sayin', And why is that? Hint, I already said something about that argument.
Full Metal Kitten Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 672	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:13:00 - [4] - Quote I wouldn't play as much if active SP was removed. My OCD would thank CCP for the reprieve.
Phantomnom Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 579	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:16:00 - [5] - Quote Kitten Empress wrote: Phantomnom wrote: I probabluy won't log in until the SP refresh again. Just sayin', And why is that? Hint, I already said something about that argument. Because I have enough ISK to cover suit costs for the forseeable and the game isn't fun enough to play withoutsone form of SP/ISK gain.
Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 240	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:17:00 - [6] - Quote Full Metal Kitten wrote: I wouldn't play as much if active SP was removed. My OCD would thank CCP for the reprieve. Same answer. If the game was actually any good outside of unlocking stuff and fitting your suit, then you would want to play. But you don't, you play because you want SP to get better gear and hope this game turns good in the future.
Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 240	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:18:00 - [7] - Quote Phantomnom wrote: Kitten Empress wrote: Phantomnom wrote: I probabluy won't log in until the SP refresh again. Just sayin', And why is that? Hint, I already said something about that argument. Because I have enough ISK to cover suit costs for the forseeable and the game isn't fun enough to play withoutsone form of SP/ISK gain. Phantomnom wrote: and the game isn't fun enough to play withoutsone form of SP/ISK gain. Case in point.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 762	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:19:00 - [8] - Quote People play for lots of reasons. "Play" is highly interpretive. People also make their own games. I might go pistol only for a few games. or see what I can do with a forge gun in CQC. In my own way I have now altered the game I play. In the same way some people do play for the SP, or the ISK, or the fun, or the metagame. Also some people play to grief. Agents of chaos. However the psychological sciences behind feeling rewarded are a bit weird. Having two bars going up and showing you how much you got probably has an intended psychological effect. In the same way that greyed out bar showing how much SP you COULD have gotten is interpreted by our brains as Loss, not "potential gain". This was likely done on purpose. The fact is you could claim "Play for fun!", but in reality the pleasure you derive from that may be just as strong as someone who sees their "SP" go up from victory. Neither is better than the other, and the SP one shouldn't be ignored for the sake of others. Instead you have to balance those wanting numbers to get bigger, those wanting to cause mischief, those wanting to just play, those wanting community interaction, and those who want to just play for a week and give up. They are all potential customers with equal rights to "enjoy the game" from a philosophy standpoint. That being said you target the most cost effective audience. Thus you have what we have.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 224	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:19:00 - [9] - Quote I'd be fine with passive only: No grinding No/less AFK farming Lesser negative impact of faulty skilling Less pronounced "invested time=power" equation leading to less protostomping in the long run I never understood how people can play just to make some arbitrary number rise a little quicker.
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F 191	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:20:00 - [10] - Quote so make some suggestions on way to make the game good outside the sp gain, that's what I tried to do in the feedback forums but got little interest. maybe your suggestions will be better received. sp gain is a thing and it will likely stay, so you will need to a way to make fights have a point.

Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 241	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:21:00 - [11] - Quote Rynx Sinfar wrote: People play for lots of reasons. "Play" is highly interpretive. People also make their own games. I might go pistol only for a few games. or see what I can do with a forge gun in CQC. In my own way I have now altered the game I play. In the same way some people do play for the SP, or the ISK, or the fun, or the metagame. Also some people play to grief. Agents of chaos. However the psychological sciences behind feeling rewarded are a bit weird. Having two bars going up and showing you how much you got probably has an intended psychological effect. In the same way that greyed out bar showing how much SP you COULD have gotten is interpreted by our brains as Loss, not "potential gain". This was likely done on purpose. The fact is you could claim "Play for fun!", but in reality the pleasure you derive from that may be just as strong as someone who sees their "SP" go up from victory. Neither is better than the other, and the SP one shouldn't be ignored for the sake of others. Instead you have to balance those wanting numbers to get bigger, those wanting to cause mischief, those wanting to just play, those wanting community interaction, and those who want to just play for a week and give up. They are all potential customers with equal rights to "enjoy the game" from a philosophy standpoint. That being said you target the most cost effective audience. Thus you have what we have. The problem is that this is why AFK camping exists in the first place. They want to see numbers grow, but they don't want to play a game that isn't up to snuff.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 203	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:22:00 - [12] - Quote A few reasons why CCP doesn't just want to go all Passive. 1. No Carrot. For some reason, people love them a Skinner Box and enjoy games more when they can see that bar move up. 2. 'Forces' people to play, thus keeping the game alive. A FPS requires people to shoot. By making people cap out every week, it means more people online to shoot. 3. Money (possible). Why sell one booster when you can see two? 4. It is not "Action Oriented" to say "I am training in Weaponry 4" and stepping away. Yes, that is what we do in EVE but that game is not "Action Oriented." I like spending SP rather than training because it means that I can dip and drizzle rather than just go "this to level 5", see you in a week. My .02 ISK.
Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 241	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:22:00 - [13] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: I'd be fine with passive only: No grinding No/less AFK farming Lesser negative impact of faulty skilling Less pronounced "invested time=power" equation leading to less protostomping in the long run I never understood how people can play just to make some arbitrary number rise a little quicker. Psychology, isn't it wonderful? I still find Counter Strike 1.6 to be one of the most thrilling and fun games ever, and it had zero progression. I miss 1.6.
Phantomnom Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 579	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:24:00 - [14] - Quote Passive Only SP would give me even less incentive to play. If I get bored and want a new weapon I can't even try out new weapons competently because, you know, I have 2.5mil SP.
Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 241	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:26:00 - [15] - Quote Phantomnom wrote: Passive Only SP would give me even less incentive to play. If I get bored and want a new weapon I can't even try out new weapons competently because, you know, I have 2.5mil SP. Less incentive to grind.
Phantomnom Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 579	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:31:00 - [16] - Quote Kitten Empress wrote: Phantomnom wrote: Passive Only SP would give me even less incentive to play. If I get bored and want a new weapon I can't even try out new weapons competently because, you know, I have 2.5mil SP. Less incentive to grind. Without grinding towards "better days" I'm not entirely sure why I'd log in. Infact, I can't even differentiate between the fun and the grind. The game mechanics do not endorse fun, they. endorse advancement.
Malkai Inos The Vanguardians Orion Empire 225	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:34:00 - [17] - Quote Kitten Empress wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: I'd be fine with passive only: No grinding No/less AFK farming Lesser negative impact of faulty skilling Less pronounced "invested time=power" equation leading to less protostomping in the long run I never understood how people can play just to make some arbitrary number rise a little quicker. Psychology, isn't it wonderful? I still find Counter Strike 1.6 to be one of the most thrilling and fun games ever, and it had zero progression. I miss 1.6. Skinner Box design in games is evil. People are so used to beeing conditioned to operate towards some "goal", even if it's ompletely inconsequential, that they outright want to be abused in that way. Not that i think that it's particulary immoral from CCP to do it but, in a perfect world, game designers shouldn't need to utilize well known cognitive behavior to motivate people to play their game and pay money.
Daxxis KANNAH Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 63	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:34:00 - [18] - Quote I could only go along with this if they upped the amount of passive. They do that they can remove active SP but if it stayed too low then no way I would stick around to wait even longer to gain gear/skills. ISK at the moment (hell after the first 2-3 weeks) means nothing because the gear isnt priced accordingly and the content is minimal. For what you want to work , boost SP or at least lower SP requirements in the area of Weaponry / Vehicle Access and increase it in other skills you want to make hard or take long to acquire. Then increase the cost of good bear by a significant amount. Many will be able to use good gear but skill and risk reward would play much more into how you use it because there would be true apprehension about losing top stuff.
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 208	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:38:00 - [19] - Quote With passive SP, that means I'll have to play other games that actually fun! Like Call of Juarez: gunslinger. gunslinger? Yes my annoying friend. $15 at the psn store! you cad! sony better send us a check for this! On a serious note. grinding is not fun. Koreans been grinding since 1948 and they will tell you it's not fun. That RL not games Fine. they love their grind fest mmo. But who plays Terra huh? who plays terra? some of the girls you know Your annoying.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 765	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:52:00 - [20] - Quote Kitten Empress wrote: Rynx Sinfar wrote: People play for lots of reasons. "Play" is highly interpretive. People also make their own games. I might go pistol only for a few games. or see what I can do with a forge gun in CQC. In my own way I have now altered the game I play. In the same way some people do play for the SP, or the ISK, or the fun, or the metagame. Also some people play to grief. Agents of chaos. However the psychological sciences behind feeling rewarded are a bit weird. Having two bars going up and showing you how much you got probably has an intended psychological effect. In the same way that greyed out bar showing how much SP you COULD have gotten is interpreted by our brains as Loss, not "potential gain". This was likely done on purpose. The fact is you could claim "Play for fun!", but in reality the pleasure you derive from that may be just as strong as someone who sees their "SP" go up from victory. Neither is better than the other, and the SP one shouldn't be ignored for the sake of others. Instead you have to balance those wanting numbers to get bigger, those wanting to cause mischief, those wanting to just play, those wanting community interaction, and those who want to just play for a week and give up. They are all potential customers with equal rights to "enjoy the game" from a philosophy standpoint. That being said you target the most cost effective audience. Thus you have what we have. The problem is that this is why AFK camping exists in the first place. They want to see numbers grow, but they don't want to play a game that isn't up to snuff. The solution isn't in taking away proper player's joy though. The point also isn't to just solve the current issue. They need to prevent future abuse. Just stopping what is occuring now might help things, but they need to prevent what will happen after. If you make a bare minimum then people will find the fastest way to hit bare minimum quickly. If you monitor for movement they'll use rubber bands to run in circles. In actuallity this kind of behavior is terribly common. Whether called Powerleveling in MMOs, or "ratting" I think it is called in EvE. The only difference in this game is that behavior leaves a hole that needs filled because participation is limited. In the same way you wouldn't PL in a "dungeon raid" or etc.

SuperKing BigNuts Contract Hunters 95	Posted - 2013.06.03 15:05:00 - [21] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: I could only go along with this if they upped the amount of passive. They do that they can remove active SP but if it stayed too low then no way I would stick around to wait even longer to gain gear/skills. ISK at the moment (hell after the first 2-3 weeks) means nothing because the gear isnt priced accordingly and the content is minimal. For what you want to work , boost SP or at least lower SP requirements in the area of Weaponry / Vehicle Access and increase it in other skills you want to make hard or take long to acquire. Then increase the cost of good bear by a significant amount. Many will be able to use good gear but skill and risk reward would play much more into how you use it because there would be true apprehension about losing top stuff. if my math is right, the current weekly cap is roughly equivilant to 0.3SP/second... 7 days x24 hours = 168 168 hours x60 minutes = 10,080 10,080 minutes x60 seconds =604,800 190,000SP / 604,800 seconds = 0.314 SP/ second if they were to do away with the 'BONUS' sp and limit it to the post-cap active SP gain(1k/battle), and added that bonus to the passive SP, you would do away with a majority of afk campers, seeing as the only reason to be in a battle would be to actively participate. not having AFK campers would improve server morale, or the game would die out. it hasnt died out yet or degenerated to 32-man afks, which leads me to believe that the skill cap isnt as significant as some people try to make it.
SuperKing BigNuts Contract Hunters 95	Posted - 2013.06.03 16:20:00 - [22] - Quote Rynx Sinfar wrote: The solution isn't in taking away proper player's joy though. The point also isn't to just solve the current issue. They need to prevent future abuse. Just stopping what is occuring now might help things, but they need to prevent what will happen after. If you make a bare minimum then people will find the fastest way to hit bare minimum quickly. If you monitor for movement they'll use rubber bands to run in circles. In actuallity this kind of behavior is terribly common. Whether called Powerleveling in MMOs, or "ratting" I think it is called in EvE. The only difference in this game is that behavior leaves a hole that needs filled because participation is limited. In the same way you wouldn't PL in a "dungeon raid" or etc. ratting has nothing to do with powerleveling in EVE, ratting is simply the act of farming NPCs for whatever loot they may, ISK, escalations, resources in the form of reprocessable loot or salvage its like saying mining is powerleveling... or gathering materials for crafting professions is powerleveling. a veteran player can help a new player make more money than they could on their own, which might be classifiable as power leveling in the loosest of terms, but they wont be able to access anything better than their skills allow, which is limited by attribute distribution and time. and to the guy who said EVE isnt action based, thats like saying call of duty isnt action based because you configure your equipment and skills, or fantasy MMOs arent action because there are elves... yes there is a lot of thought that goes into things besides simply blowing things into space dust, and there is a lot of thought that goes into blowing things up. it is a slower paced action than many other games at times, but its not like everyone is just hanging around the pool drinking martinis. if you want easy or safe but repetitive action, you throw over tanked mid-ranged battleships at missions most times, but the same missions become a lot more intense when you switch up to a blaster or autocannon fit battlecruiser/command ship. PVP scales from thousands strong blob fights(reference battle of asakai) to 'elite' 5-10man squads taking on 20+ hostiles and winning. when the action kicks up in EVE, it is brutal and exciting and intense and, most of all, FUN, being on voice comms with 5-10 guys chasing off hostiles who came into the wrong system, trying to throw ECM down range to break enemy locks on your tackle before they die, then flippin on skirm links on a second character who just landed at a safe spot in system, instantly turning the tides of the fight, resulting in successfully destroying 400m+ worth of hostile ships, which would take 4+hours to replace and reminding them why they dont come round 'our neighborhood'.
Jin Robot Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 766	Posted - 2013.06.03 16:26:00 - [23] - Quote "active gain" means active servers. Plus AUR booster sales.
Jenova's Witness The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 135	Posted - 2013.06.03 16:45:00 - [24] - Quote I do a lot of traveling for my job. I can't just carry my PS3 around just so I can reach some virtual carrot every week. EVE online is 100% passive because there's enough content to deter from accruing skills. Dust 514 is a grind you're forced to take a part of in order to keep up with the competition. I have barely 3 million and I've been playing since January while people that have the time to play have almost 4 times that amount and the gap is getting wider each week due to my real life obligations that take priority over a virtual war. It's getting to the point where I've taken up AFK farming just to reach my weekly cap. Not because I want to, but because I don't want to fall further behind in the grind. If you take a break from other games, you don't get capped at X level because you'll never gain those experience points for the time you missed, why does it have to be that way here. Dust 514 is punishing players who don't have the time to play. The skill system needs to be passive or people will leave because they're tired of being punished for having real life obligations. I'll even buy passive boosters if this is the case, just so I can have a reasonable chance of catching up with my friends.
Daxxis KANNAH Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 65	Posted - 2013.06.03 16:48:00 - [25] - Quote Jin Robot wrote: "active gain" means active servers. Plus AUR booster sales. That is the thing - I saw boosters and augmentations and thought wow only to find out it just helps you to gain more SP How about more usable loot or special modules that could be used in game for a set time or potential higher ISK payout if they truly want to make ISK the driving factor.
Jin Robot Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 767	Posted - 2013.06.03 16:54:00 - [26] - Quote Jenova's Witness wrote: I do a lot of traveling for my job. I can't just carry my PS3 around just so I can reach some virtual carrot every week. EVE online is 100% passive because there's enough content to deter from accruing skills. Dust 514 is a grind you're forced to take a part of in order to keep up with the competition. I have barely 3 million and I've been playing since January while people that have the time to play have almost 4 times that amount and the gap is getting wider each week due to my real life obligations that take priority over a virtual war. It's getting to the point where I've taken up AFK farming just to reach my weekly cap. Not because I want to, but because I don't want to fall further behind in the grind. If you take a break from other games, you don't get capped at X level because you'll never gain those experience points for the time you missed, why does it have to be that way here. Dust 514 is punishing players who don't have the time to play. The skill system needs to be passive or people will leave because they're tired of being punished for having real life obligations. I'll even buy passive boosters if this is the case, just so I can have a reasonable chance of catching up with my friends. Ppl make too much out of the SP gap. There is no way to use all your SP in every fit. We are not pulling away, we are just more versatile. Skill at FPS is also way more effective than a couple mill more SP.
Daxxis KANNAH Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 65	Posted - 2013.06.03 17:04:00 - [27] - Quote Really???!!!! If he is on 3 and you are on 12 you are pulling away You have access to gear that is vastly superior when combined. Sure he still has a chance to kill you but his chances arent that great unless he is highly skilled, lucky or patient enough. After a certain SP mark, yes you are branching out and becoming more versatile but at up until then you are "pulling away"
Buddha Brown Factory Fresh 0	Posted - 2013.06.03 17:20:00 - [28] - Quote Kitten Empress wrote: I still find Counter Strike 1.6 to be one of the most thrilling and fun games ever, and it had zero progression. I miss 1.6. so true
PonyClause Rex TRAMADOL KNIGHTS 35	Posted - 2013.06.03 17:38:00 - [29] - Quote By creating a game where the majority of your SP gain is based on your activity you have created a grind, intentionally or not that is what you have. OP is saying that people can still gain SP passively and still log in because now it doesn't feel like a grind Also this would reward people who have played the game longest (still) and to those that say what about the newbs trying to catch up, well firstly i would commend you and say this, start the newbs with a bonus to there SP gain up to 3mill SP plus what CCP starts them on the road with then its up to them how much they want to catch up with there wallets either way everyone wins and you no longer have a grind any questions, no? thanks for your time. Oh and one thing i forgot to cover and that's the people who wont log in much cos they wont have to grind SP anymore only means that the game truly sucks kthnxbai07
Pent'noir Algintal Core Gallente Federation 100	Posted - 2013.06.03 18:30:00 - [30] - Quote One of the reasons why I don't play eve anymore is because of the passive only sp. If this game only had passive then i'd never login until I had somewhere around 15mil, but even then I wouldn't be very motivated to login just to earn isk. Earning sp is a goal that I can work towards which gives me a purpose to play. I can earn sp faster than passive by playing, which keeps me logged in. I currently only have two goals, be able to blowup vehicles and earn sp to allow me to better blowup vehicles. Take away the active sp and i'll just logoff until I have enough sp to maxout my av role. I would imagine having an active player base is pretty essential, especially when everything is free. Getting ppl to stay logged on (even just to grind) helps to sell boosters and aur equipment. I do agree that grinding can be boring, but I'm hoping for some cool large scale game modes and pve to eventually be in the game. I want active sp to stay and would like the cap removed, but understand why there is a cap.

Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 257	Posted - 2013.06.03 18:36:00 - [31] - Quote k, let this thread die now. I guess people LIKE being inside a skinner box >_>
Phantomnom Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 590	Posted - 2013.06.03 18:38:00 - [32] - Quote Kitten Empress wrote: k, let this thread die now. I guess people LIKE being inside a skinner box >_> Well, it's more motivating than the gameplay itself..
Mary Sedillo XERCORE E X T E R M I N A T U S 111	Posted - 2013.06.03 18:41:00 - [33] - Quote Because passive skilling works for EVE, a good point-click space game. Such things do not placate the FPS crowd. ISK alone would not be sufficient means for drawing people back. Active SP helps keep people playing, something to strive for, more than just ISK and pathetic PC matches.
Aisha Ctarl The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 170	Posted - 2013.06.03 18:44:00 - [34] - Quote Yeah, I've pretty much maxed out my Amarr Assault - Amarr Assault V, Armor Reps V, Armor Plates V, SCRs V, SCR Proficiency IV , etc etc and now I'm like "hmm....now what?"
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement 6	Posted - 2013.06.03 19:16:00 - [35] - Quote Right now very few would play often if they did not get SP. There just are no modes that are fun outside of PC. None have real meaning and it can be frustrating as hell to play these games with SP gap and terrible matchmaking. Honestly you would not want to throw away your Isk for nothing gained right now. If you fleshed out FW, brought in PVE, and gave more meaningful links to Eve you could go this route of only Passive Sp. But things would have to be expensive because you would be raking in isk. Most FPS games face similar struggles. If you do not give the player something to actively play for they will get bored. FPS are not MMO RPGs and they are less focused on the theme park.
Jenova's Witness The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 135	Posted - 2013.06.03 19:23:00 - [36] - Quote Jin Robot wrote: Jenova's Witness wrote: I do a lot of traveling for my job. I can't just carry my PS3 around just so I can reach some virtual carrot every week. EVE online is 100% passive because there's enough content to deter from accruing skills. Dust 514 is a grind you're forced to take a part of in order to keep up with the competition. I have barely 3 million and I've been playing since January while people that have the time to play have almost 4 times that amount and the gap is getting wider each week due to my real life obligations that take priority over a virtual war. It's getting to the point where I've taken up AFK farming just to reach my weekly cap. Not because I want to, but because I don't want to fall further behind in the grind. If you take a break from other games, you don't get capped at X level because you'll never gain those experience points for the time you missed, why does it have to be that way here. Dust 514 is punishing players who don't have the time to play. The skill system needs to be passive or people will leave because they're tired of being punished for having real life obligations. I'll even buy passive boosters if this is the case, just so I can have a reasonable chance of catching up with my friends. Ppl make too much out of the SP gap. There is no way to use all your SP in every fit. We are not pulling away, we are just more versatile. Skill at FPS is also way more effective than a couple mill more SP. You need a certain amount of SP just to get into your role to the point that you're effective. Some are bigger SP sinks than others, look at logis and heavies.
WyrmHero1945 SyNergy Gaming EoN. 358	Posted - 2013.06.03 19:29:00 - [37] - Quote If active SP is removed I'd only log in for participating in PC. Only reason to play really. ISK is not really a reward because everything is so cheap now, + most of us have +100 million ISK. Thing is most of the players don't play PC because they're not in corps or their corp is too small. Unless other form of reward is introduced, or at least a story/PvE there's really no reason to play more than once a week to check out that new weapon.
First Prophet Jaguar Elite 155	Posted - 2013.06.03 19:35:00 - [38] - Quote Kitten Empress wrote: "But people won't play!" The argument is funny because it shows that the only reason people play is to get SP. We should play because its fun, because we want ISK, or because metagame. The game isn't really fun enough on its own to play. The only people who would ever log in are those involved with PC. There's no other metagame, and the only thing non PC players can buy with ISK are suits/mods. Which until you get the SP for the higher end gear is pointless. And with the high amount of ISK a lot of players got after the respect there's no need for any sort of ISK grind. But I fully support going over to passive only. I absolutely hate the grind.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1541	Posted - 2013.06.03 19:38:00 - [39] - Quote The SP grind is the only reason anyone plays. Remove it and we're left with a bad FPS with 4 poorly designed maps, awful lag and low frame rates, and terrible weapon balance. If the game was good OP would be dead on.
True Adamance Ametat Security Amarr Empire 26	Posted - 2013.06.03 19:42:00 - [40] - Quote Kitten Empress wrote: We're mercenaries, we're supposed to fight for money and power, not SP. But that's exactly what we're doing, playing for SP match after match after match with ISK being something on the side. Sure, you can say that "newbies will never be able to catch up!". But in the current system, can they? No, they can't, so what's the difference? Once they reach 7-14mil SP, they have reached the ceiling of a certain class (and 40%-50% of that is small 3% buffs) and can only get wider from there, not taller. EVE has used this system for years and it works. I do not see why it can't apply for this game. "But people won't log in!" If CCP implements the same training queue as EVE does, then they will. Which also gives me an idea, have a booster than increases the length of the training queue. "But people won't play!" The argument is funny because it shows that the only reason people play is to get SP. We should play because its fun, because we want ISK, or because metagame. Any other arguments? P.S I'm not against gaining ANY SP during matches. Maybe have the current passive skilling + active skilling all go into passive, and have the current system of 1WP = 1SP up to 1000. I know its probably hard to grasp, because we have been fighting for months now just to get SP, but I believe changing it would be for the better. Why?: Removing active skilling removes SP grinding. It wouldn't be a bad system though I feel it should be like the EVE system wherein you cannot just collect totals of SP, e.g you do not simply aquire SP to a general pool that you can use at a later date, if this system were to be implemented then it would have to follow the EVE model exactly where players assign skills to be trained over a matter of minutes and days. Skilling into prerequisites and such of course would be mandatory and consistent logins to assign weekly/ daily skill queues would still be necessary.

element0mega Elements Of Death Elite 2	Posted - 2013.06.03 19:46:00 - [41] - Quote The reason is; there is no requirement to have talent while playing the game. You simply level up regardless of talent. I personally would rather see it merit based only- no passive. What is the point in working hard at a game if your not rewarded for it. Your question is fundamentally flawed, based on human nature. Not sure why anyone would want to play a passive SP only game. It's one of my core issues with Eve- it requires no talent... I like games which mix; dexterial ability,tactics, strategic play, comradery, and brains. Any game that doesn't tax all those requirements, fails to pique my interest any longer. Anyway, my 2cents; never go full homo with passive SP only lol.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 491	Posted - 2013.06.03 19:52:00 - [42] - Quote I'd be all for this to remove the sense of grinding and the chore of meeting the skill cap week after week, but how would you go about implementing it? Restart everyone to 500,000 SP? Or simply change it now? The game would be much better without the grind and having all the current prices for suits getting jacked up. People who have more than enough ISK to cover the costs of full proto fittings for awhile would quickly lose that ISK. The game would be more about making money to afford better gear as opposed to fighting for skill points to get some gear but it's so cheap that you never worry about the cost, just proto all day long.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1541	Posted - 2013.06.03 20:00:00 - [43] - Quote element0mega wrote: The reason is; there is no requirement to have talent while playing the game. You simply level up regardless of talent. I personally would rather see it merit based only- no passive. What is the point in working hard at a game if your not rewarded for it. Your question is fundamentally flawed, based on human nature. Not sure why anyone would want to play a passive SP only game. It's one of my core issues with Eve- it requires no talent... I like games which mix; dexterial ability,tactics, strategic play, comradery, and brains. Any game that doesn't tax all those requirements, fails to pique my interest any longer. Anyway, my 2cents; never go full homo with passive SP only lol. Passive vs. active skilling has absolutely nothing to do with talent. The people with the most SP are the people who play the game the most. That's it.
Daxxis KANNAH Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 66	Posted - 2013.06.03 20:11:00 - [44] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: element0mega wrote: The reason is; there is no requirement to have talent while playing the game. You simply level up regardless of talent. I personally would rather see it merit based only- no passive. What is the point in working hard at a game if your not rewarded for it. Your question is fundamentally flawed, based on human nature. Not sure why anyone would want to play a passive SP only game. It's one of my core issues with Eve- it requires no talent... I like games which mix; dexterial ability,tactics, strategic play, comradery, and brains. Any game that doesn't tax all those requirements, fails to pique my interest any longer. Anyway, my 2cents; never go full homo with passive SP only lol. Passive vs. active skilling has absolutely nothing to do with talent. The people with the most SP are the people who play the game the most. That's it. Yeah - the bulk of active SP awarded is from time in match with only a fraction coming from actual objective achievements
Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 262	Posted - 2013.06.04 12:08:00 - [45] - Quote I'm not saying the game is good. In fact, half of the reason I made this thread is to point out how the only reason this game is still alive is because we are in a skinner box, we are chasing the SP to get that one unlock we really want. Once we get that, we chase another. And another. And another.
Akurabis Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2013.06.04 15:19:00 - [46] - Quote Look here; if the game were to be passive only, people would only play when they want to play. It would also be a bold move forward in contrast to the majority of games, where development strategy goes into keeping players 'cracked out' to keep up play statistics. Maybe there wouldn't be so much QQing and crap.
BatKing Deltor Tank Bros. DARKSTAR ARMY 32	Posted - 2013.06.04 15:34:00 - [47] - Quote last i remember the vote for the current sp system was supposed to be temporary......
Celeblhach Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi 23	Posted - 2013.06.04 16:37:00 - [48] - Quote +1 While I believe the idea has merit, the game itself is not strong enough to support it. FPS is a difficult market and Dust doesn't have enough quality to make a good draw outside of what it tries to do with EVE. Currently, the majority of players still play solely to grind SP. This isn't the most healthy of reason to play a game, but major changes in other areas of the game would need to happen to m However, if you gave people another objective besides SP to grind for, the idea might work. Perhaps adding basic and advanced versions of the officer weapons, salvage-only dropsuits, or other salvage-only items, as well as increasing the amount of salvage players receive. This would give players with time to grind something to grind for, while not punishing players who don't have time to grind, as they can continue to use the market's proto/adv/basic gear without falling behind the SP curve.
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 875	Posted - 2013.06.04 16:44:00 - [49] - Quote I don't know about going 100% passive, but I would definitely like to see the balance tilted more in passive's favor. When you've got boosters going and tons of SP to grind before the cap reset because the servers were down when you had more time to play, and you would rather chill out with the latest Humble Indie Bundle instead of playing a shooter, it's hard not to resent the game a bit for "forcing" you to play. I'm actually kind of looking forward to the day that I fall far enough behind the SP curve that I completely stop caring about keeping up.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1526	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:22:00 - [50] - Quote The push to grind for SP makes DUST feel more like "No Zombies Allowed" where you build your town simply to be able to build your town further. The further you get in the game the more you have to play to advance at the same rate because everything starts to cost more (like DUST's exponential skilling costs). The game designers "helpfully" offer ways to speed up that grind for real money. You even get to shoot zombies in the face with a short twitch mini-game to distract you from the realization that you are just grinding. There is nothing to the game except the grind. That's it. That's the point. So yes, enough people react positively to the Skinner Box that it's a game category all it's own. Farmville and all its clones are a huge and lucrative segment. CCP has fully integrated the Skinner Box into DUST. I'd personally love it if they pulled it all out by the roots. I *abhor* grinding. I haven't gone so far as to AFK, but I'm very very close to doing so after losing half my weekend opportunity to play. Instead I've made my own fun by learning to roadkill with my LLAV. That annoys others, but it's the only way I can maintain my sanity while actively grinding. It's that or AFK. I can't fly my dropship for fun like I used to because it isn't fun anymore. Its handling has been nerfed to the point it is as much fun to drive as a Greyhound bus. It would be a huge risk for CCP to go all passive though. Then the game would have to stand on its own. It would have to offer enough fun (challenge) to keep people coming back on its own merits.

Chojine Dentetsu Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 35	Posted - 2013.06.04 22:16:00 - [51] - Quote Passive SP means less incentive to grind. Less incentive to grind means less suits lost / gear lost. Less suits / gear lost = less bought on the market. Alot of those suits / gear will be AUR bought. Kaching!
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1546	Posted - 2013.06.05 02:02:00 - [52] - Quote Skihids wrote: The push to grind for SP makes DUST feel more like "No Zombies Allowed" where you build your town simply to be able to build your town further. The further you get in the game the more you have to play to advance at the same rate because everything starts to cost more (like DUST's exponential skilling costs). The game designers "helpfully" offer ways to speed up that grind for real money. You even get to shoot zombies in the face with a short twitch mini-game to distract you from the realization that you are just grinding. There is nothing to the game except the grind. That's it. That's the point. So yes, enough people react positively to the Skinner Box that it's a game category all it's own. Farmville and all its clones are a huge and lucrative segment. CCP has fully integrated the Skinner Box into DUST. I'd personally love it if they pulled it all out by the roots. I *abhor* grinding. I haven't gone so far as to AFK, but I'm very very close to doing so after losing half my weekend opportunity to play. Instead I've made my own fun by learning to roadkill with my LLAV. That annoys others, but it's the only way I can maintain my sanity while actively grinding. It's that or AFK. I can't fly my dropship for fun like I used to because it isn't fun anymore. Its handling has been nerfed to the point it is as much fun to drive as a Greyhound bus. It would be a huge risk for CCP to go all passive though. Then the game would have to stand on its own. It would have to offer enough fun (challenge) to keep people coming back on its own merits. EDIT: Crap, I shouldn't have read this thread. The more I think about it the less tolerant I get. Farmville 514
Charlotte O'Dell Molon Labe. League of Infamy 401	Posted - 2013.06.05 02:49:00 - [53] - Quote it honestly would make this game more fun bc if one caps out, he earns the same SP every week, give or take 20,000. So just adjust the passive SP to match that and NOTHING changes. Seriously. It would get rid of the grind and AFK farming.


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