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Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
257
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Posted - 2013.06.03 18:36:00 -
[31] - Quote
k, let this thread die now. I guess people LIKE being inside a skinner box >_> |
Phantomnom
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
590
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Posted - 2013.06.03 18:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote:k, let this thread die now. I guess people LIKE being inside a skinner box >_>
Well, it's more motivating than the gameplay itself.. |
Mary Sedillo
XERCORE E X T E R M I N A T U S
111
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Posted - 2013.06.03 18:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Because passive skilling works for EVE, a good point-click space game. Such things do not placate the FPS crowd. ISK alone would not be sufficient means for drawing people back. Active SP helps keep people playing, something to strive for, more than just ISK and pathetic PC matches. |
Aisha Ctarl
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
170
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Posted - 2013.06.03 18:44:00 -
[34] - Quote
Yeah, I've pretty much maxed out my Amarr Assault - Amarr Assault V, Armor Reps V, Armor Plates V, SCRs V, SCR Proficiency IV , etc etc and now I'm like "hmm....now what?" |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement
6
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Posted - 2013.06.03 19:16:00 -
[35] - Quote
Right now very few would play often if they did not get SP. There just are no modes that are fun outside of PC. None have real meaning and it can be frustrating as hell to play these games with SP gap and terrible matchmaking.
Honestly you would not want to throw away your Isk for nothing gained right now. If you fleshed out FW, brought in PVE, and gave more meaningful links to Eve you could go this route of only Passive Sp. But things would have to be expensive because you would be raking in isk.
Most FPS games face similar struggles. If you do not give the player something to actively play for they will get bored. FPS are not MMO RPGs and they are less focused on the theme park. |
Jenova's Witness
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
135
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Posted - 2013.06.03 19:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:Jenova's Witness wrote:I do a lot of traveling for my job. I can't just carry my PS3 around just so I can reach some virtual carrot every week. EVE online is 100% passive because there's enough content to deter from accruing skills. Dust 514 is a grind you're forced to take a part of in order to keep up with the competition. I have barely 3 million and I've been playing since January while people that have the time to play have almost 4 times that amount and the gap is getting wider each week due to my real life obligations that take priority over a virtual war. It's getting to the point where I've taken up AFK farming just to reach my weekly cap. Not because I want to, but because I don't want to fall further behind in the grind. If you take a break from other games, you don't get capped at X level because you'll never gain those experience points for the time you missed, why does it have to be that way here. Dust 514 is punishing players who don't have the time to play.
The skill system needs to be passive or people will leave because they're tired of being punished for having real life obligations. I'll even buy passive boosters if this is the case, just so I can have a reasonable chance of catching up with my friends. Ppl make too much out of the SP gap. There is no way to use all your SP in every fit. We are not pulling away, we are just more versatile. Skill at FPS is also way more effective than a couple mill more SP. You need a certain amount of SP just to get into your role to the point that you're effective. Some are bigger SP sinks than others, look at logis and heavies. |
WyrmHero1945
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
358
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Posted - 2013.06.03 19:29:00 -
[37] - Quote
If active SP is removed I'd only log in for participating in PC. Only reason to play really. ISK is not really a reward because everything is so cheap now, + most of us have +100 million ISK. Thing is most of the players don't play PC because they're not in corps or their corp is too small. Unless other form of reward is introduced, or at least a story/PvE there's really no reason to play more than once a week to check out that new weapon. |
First Prophet
Jaguar Elite
155
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Posted - 2013.06.03 19:35:00 -
[38] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote: "But people won't play!" The argument is funny because it shows that the only reason people play is to get SP. We should play because its fun, because we want ISK, or because metagame.
The game isn't really fun enough on its own to play.
The only people who would ever log in are those involved with PC.
There's no other metagame, and the only thing non PC players can buy with ISK are suits/mods. Which until you get the SP for the higher end gear is pointless. And with the high amount of ISK a lot of players got after the respect there's no need for any sort of ISK grind.
But I fully support going over to passive only. I absolutely hate the grind. |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1541
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Posted - 2013.06.03 19:38:00 -
[39] - Quote
The SP grind is the only reason anyone plays. Remove it and we're left with a bad FPS with 4 poorly designed maps, awful lag and low frame rates, and terrible weapon balance.
If the game was good OP would be dead on. |
True Adamance
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
26
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Posted - 2013.06.03 19:42:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote:We're mercenaries, we're supposed to fight for money and power, not SP. But that's exactly what we're doing, playing for SP match after match after match with ISK being something on the side.
Sure, you can say that "newbies will never be able to catch up!". But in the current system, can they? No, they can't, so what's the difference? Once they reach 7-14mil SP, they have reached the ceiling of a certain class (and 40%-50% of that is small 3% buffs) and can only get wider from there, not taller.
EVE has used this system for years and it works. I do not see why it can't apply for this game.
"But people won't log in!" If CCP implements the same training queue as EVE does, then they will. Which also gives me an idea, have a booster than increases the length of the training queue.
"But people won't play!" The argument is funny because it shows that the only reason people play is to get SP. We should play because its fun, because we want ISK, or because metagame.
Any other arguments?
P.S I'm not against gaining ANY SP during matches. Maybe have the current passive skilling + active skilling all go into passive, and have the current system of 1WP = 1SP up to 1000.
I know its probably hard to grasp, because we have been fighting for months now just to get SP, but I believe changing it would be for the better. Why?: Removing active skilling removes SP grinding.
It wouldn't be a bad system though I feel it should be like the EVE system wherein you cannot just collect totals of SP, e.g you do not simply aquire SP to a general pool that you can use at a later date, if this system were to be implemented then it would have to follow the EVE model exactly where players assign skills to be trained over a matter of minutes and days.
Skilling into prerequisites and such of course would be mandatory and consistent logins to assign weekly/ daily skill queues would still be necessary. |
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element0mega
Elements Of Death Elite
2
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Posted - 2013.06.03 19:46:00 -
[41] - Quote
The reason is; there is no requirement to have talent while playing the game. You simply level up regardless of talent. I personally would rather see it merit based only- no passive. What is the point in working hard at a game if your not rewarded for it.
Your question is fundamentally flawed, based on human nature.
Not sure why anyone would want to play a passive SP only game. It's one of my core issues with Eve- it requires no talent...
I like games which mix; dexterial ability,tactics, strategic play, comradery, and brains. Any game that doesn't tax all those requirements, fails to pique my interest any longer.
Anyway, my 2cents; never go full homo with passive SP only lol. |
Delirium Inferno
Edoras Corporation
491
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Posted - 2013.06.03 19:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
I'd be all for this to remove the sense of grinding and the chore of meeting the skill cap week after week, but how would you go about implementing it? Restart everyone to 500,000 SP? Or simply change it now?
The game would be much better without the grind and having all the current prices for suits getting jacked up. People who have more than enough ISK to cover the costs of full proto fittings for awhile would quickly lose that ISK. The game would be more about making money to afford better gear as opposed to fighting for skill points to get some gear but it's so cheap that you never worry about the cost, just proto all day long. |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1541
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Posted - 2013.06.03 20:00:00 -
[43] - Quote
element0mega wrote:The reason is; there is no requirement to have talent while playing the game. You simply level up regardless of talent. I personally would rather see it merit based only- no passive. What is the point in working hard at a game if your not rewarded for it.
Your question is fundamentally flawed, based on human nature.
Not sure why anyone would want to play a passive SP only game. It's one of my core issues with Eve- it requires no talent...
I like games which mix; dexterial ability,tactics, strategic play, comradery, and brains. Any game that doesn't tax all those requirements, fails to pique my interest any longer.
Anyway, my 2cents; never go full homo with passive SP only lol.
Passive vs. active skilling has absolutely nothing to do with talent.
The people with the most SP are the people who play the game the most. That's it. |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
66
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Posted - 2013.06.03 20:11:00 -
[44] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:element0mega wrote:The reason is; there is no requirement to have talent while playing the game. You simply level up regardless of talent. I personally would rather see it merit based only- no passive. What is the point in working hard at a game if your not rewarded for it.
Your question is fundamentally flawed, based on human nature.
Not sure why anyone would want to play a passive SP only game. It's one of my core issues with Eve- it requires no talent...
I like games which mix; dexterial ability,tactics, strategic play, comradery, and brains. Any game that doesn't tax all those requirements, fails to pique my interest any longer.
Anyway, my 2cents; never go full homo with passive SP only lol. Passive vs. active skilling has absolutely nothing to do with talent. The people with the most SP are the people who play the game the most. That's it.
Yeah - the bulk of active SP awarded is from time in match with only a fraction coming from actual objective achievements |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
262
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 12:08:00 -
[45] - Quote
I'm not saying the game is good. In fact, half of the reason I made this thread is to point out how the only reason this game is still alive is because we are in a skinner box, we are chasing the SP to get that one unlock we really want. Once we get that, we chase another. And another. And another. |
Akurabis
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.06.04 15:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
Look here; if the game were to be passive only, people would only play when they want to play.
It would also be a bold move forward in contrast to the majority of games, where development strategy goes into keeping players 'cracked out' to keep up play statistics.
Maybe there wouldn't be so much QQing and crap. |
BatKing Deltor
Tank Bros. DARKSTAR ARMY
32
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Posted - 2013.06.04 15:34:00 -
[47] - Quote
last i remember the vote for the current sp system was supposed to be temporary...... |
Celeblhach
Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi
23
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Posted - 2013.06.04 16:37:00 -
[48] - Quote
+1
While I believe the idea has merit, the game itself is not strong enough to support it. FPS is a difficult market and Dust doesn't have enough quality to make a good draw outside of what it tries to do with EVE. Currently, the majority of players still play solely to grind SP. This isn't the most healthy of reason to play a game, but major changes in other areas of the game would need to happen to m
However, if you gave people another objective besides SP to grind for, the idea might work. Perhaps adding basic and advanced versions of the officer weapons, salvage-only dropsuits, or other salvage-only items, as well as increasing the amount of salvage players receive. This would give players with time to grind something to grind for, while not punishing players who don't have time to grind, as they can continue to use the market's proto/adv/basic gear without falling behind the SP curve. |
Knarf Black
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
875
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Posted - 2013.06.04 16:44:00 -
[49] - Quote
I don't know about going 100% passive, but I would definitely like to see the balance tilted more in passive's favor. When you've got boosters going and tons of SP to grind before the cap reset because the servers were down when you had more time to play, and you would rather chill out with the latest Humble Indie Bundle instead of playing a shooter, it's hard not to resent the game a bit for "forcing" you to play.
I'm actually kind of looking forward to the day that I fall far enough behind the SP curve that I completely stop caring about keeping up. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION
1526
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Posted - 2013.06.04 17:22:00 -
[50] - Quote
The push to grind for SP makes DUST feel more like "No Zombies Allowed" where you build your town simply to be able to build your town further. The further you get in the game the more you have to play to advance at the same rate because everything starts to cost more (like DUST's exponential skilling costs). The game designers "helpfully" offer ways to speed up that grind for real money. You even get to shoot zombies in the face with a short twitch mini-game to distract you from the realization that you are just grinding.
There is nothing to the game except the grind. That's it. That's the point.
So yes, enough people react positively to the Skinner Box that it's a game category all it's own. Farmville and all its clones are a huge and lucrative segment.
CCP has fully integrated the Skinner Box into DUST. I'd personally love it if they pulled it all out by the roots. I abhor grinding. I haven't gone so far as to AFK, but I'm very very close to doing so after losing half my weekend opportunity to play. Instead I've made my own fun by learning to roadkill with my LLAV. That annoys others, but it's the only way I can maintain my sanity while actively grinding. It's that or AFK. I can't fly my dropship for fun like I used to because it isn't fun anymore. Its handling has been nerfed to the point it is as much fun to drive as a Greyhound bus.
It would be a huge risk for CCP to go all passive though. Then the game would have to stand on its own. It would have to offer enough fun (challenge) to keep people coming back on its own merits. |
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Chojine Dentetsu
Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy
35
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Posted - 2013.06.04 22:16:00 -
[51] - Quote
Passive SP means less incentive to grind.
Less incentive to grind means less suits lost / gear lost.
Less suits / gear lost = less bought on the market.
Alot of those suits / gear will be AUR bought.
Kaching! |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1546
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Posted - 2013.06.05 02:02:00 -
[52] - Quote
Skihids wrote:The push to grind for SP makes DUST feel more like "No Zombies Allowed" where you build your town simply to be able to build your town further. The further you get in the game the more you have to play to advance at the same rate because everything starts to cost more (like DUST's exponential skilling costs). The game designers "helpfully" offer ways to speed up that grind for real money. You even get to shoot zombies in the face with a short twitch mini-game to distract you from the realization that you are just grinding.
There is nothing to the game except the grind. That's it. That's the point.
So yes, enough people react positively to the Skinner Box that it's a game category all it's own. Farmville and all its clones are a huge and lucrative segment.
CCP has fully integrated the Skinner Box into DUST. I'd personally love it if they pulled it all out by the roots. I abhor grinding. I haven't gone so far as to AFK, but I'm very very close to doing so after losing half my weekend opportunity to play. Instead I've made my own fun by learning to roadkill with my LLAV. That annoys others, but it's the only way I can maintain my sanity while actively grinding. It's that or AFK. I can't fly my dropship for fun like I used to because it isn't fun anymore. Its handling has been nerfed to the point it is as much fun to drive as a Greyhound bus.
It would be a huge risk for CCP to go all passive though. Then the game would have to stand on its own. It would have to offer enough fun (challenge) to keep people coming back on its own merits.
EDIT: Crap, I shouldn't have read this thread. The more I think about it the less tolerant I get.
Farmville 514
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Charlotte O'Dell
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
401
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Posted - 2013.06.05 02:49:00 -
[53] - Quote
it honestly would make this game more fun bc if one caps out, he earns the same SP every week, give or take 20,000. So just adjust the passive SP to match that and NOTHING changes. Seriously. It would get rid of the grind and AFK farming. |
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