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So what's REALLY wrong with vehicles? (lets do this right)

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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3142	Posted - 2013.05.30 12:51:00 - [1] - Quote OK... I'm not the greatest, and I'm not running all top-level gear. Most of the time, I run a 250,000 ISK half-BPO Sica. It's often tough, especially when I don't have squadmates backing me up, but I can keep it alive more often than not - and even when it dies, it's usually paid for itself in the same match. I also have a Gunnlogi, but I save it for special occasions. We have IWS complaining that vehicle discussions (and AV discussions) aren't being handled right. So lets work on that. What's REALLY wrong here? As mentioned, I'm not the best, so I want this to be open discussion for HIGH-LEVEL vehicle players. DEDICATED drivers, the guys with Prototype LAVs and multi-million SP HAVs. DEDICATED pilots, who have been playing consistently, and have all their SP poured into their vehicle of choice. HAVs: This is the majority of my experience, and it's a big deal. There are problems. The main one is that we only really have 2 tiers of tank. Militia and not-quite-Advanced. Enforcers lose a lot for their benefits. They're cool, but they aren't practical for how most people expect to view tanks. They're a rear-line support tank, not a front-line combat vehicle, even with infantry support. Look at the non-Enforcer Caldari HAVs as an example. Sica: Miliita. Baseline everything. Gunnlogi: Extra HP and slots, but only minimal extra PG/CPU. This contrasts messily with Dropsuits. You get Militia, then Standard is Militia + PG/CPU. Same HP, same slot layout, but a little more fitting capacity so you can make it better. It makes sense for higher-tier tanks to get a bit more HP, but I think we need a Standard HAV that has the same as the Militia variant of EVERYTHING except PG/CPU. Make it a slightly easier-to-fit version, and fit it into a price point somewhere between the Sica/Soma and the Gunnlogi/Madrugar. Give them about the PG/CPU levels those current "Standard" HAVs have. Then bump those tanks up a little on their fitting capacity, but keep the current price point and slot layout. Now we have a legitimate line of Militia/Standard/Advanced/??? - Oh yeah, we're still missing Prototype tanks. Seriously, Why are there no Prototype HAVs? There's Proto AV, but no Proto targets for them to aim for. Enforcers are no more of a "Protoype" level option than Standard LLAVs. They're a low-tier side-grade, and that's what they're MEANT to be. Where are the high-level Enforcers? Where are the actual Prototype tanks? We're missing important things here, and it needs to be looked at. We need to be able to skill up and actually get what we've skilled up for. Another issue, though a lesser one, is control. I love the R2 accelerate, L2 reverse control scheme. It feels MUCH more natural than using the stick for movement and turning. Why can't I use it for tracked vehicles? I want to have my HAV driving comfortably, I want to be able to turn comfortably, I want to feel like I have CONTROL OF MY VEHICLE. Right now, I don't. I struggle more with a less-than-ideal control scheme than I do with the threat of enemies. LAVs get a control scheme that I would love to have on my tanks, but I can't do it. Where's that option? But really, this boils down to a lack of real controller remapping. Presets aren't the ideal solution anyway though, we really should have FULL remapping options. LAVs: I barely have any experience with LAVs beyond Militia-level, except in my capacity as an AV player, so I don't have a lot to say here. I think there are issues with LAVs from both perspectives. The most obvious two are the lack of impact damage to LAVs when they run people over like it's LAVmageddon, and the inability for turrets to actually provide any real benefit at speed. Turrets are definitely a LOT better than they used to be, but they're still not in a great spot yet. There are too many issues, idosyncracies, and blatant "WTF?" moments even after the latest round of "fixes" they've received. There's also the issue of LAVs being given a massive 60% HP boost. They could have done with maybe a 40% increase AT MOST. Nobody knows where the 60% came from, even the people who used to drive them regularly. Even with that buff, I can kill most LAVs pretty fast with my Militia Swarm Launcher. I've seen the same LAV I two-shotted go through several AV Grenades and keep driving. AV Grenades were OP before, the weakest of them could one-shot the top-tier LAVs, and that wasn't right. But the solution is NOT to buff LAV health, the solution SHOULD have been a NERF to AV Grenades, which still do far more than reasonable damage compared with other AV options. Drop the HP back a bit on LAVs - maybe turn that 60% into a 30 or 40%, then do what SHOULD have been done to balance them against AV Grenades, and rebalance the GRENADES so you're not pointlessly weakening the other, formerly-reasonable AV options. Dropships: Again, I don't have enough experience to call myself an authority here, but I've been a gunner quite often in a friend's Droships (Standard, Logistics and Assault Dropships with various fittings), and I know a lot about the details of the fittings being used. I've seen how fast a good Forge Gunner can drop even the most heavily-tanked LDS, and the best ADS can rarely survive a second hit, so you need to make sure that second hit never comes. It's not enough. Even the highest-tier Logi Dropship can barely take a second Forge hit when you're up against well-fitted Militia gear. They should really have seen at least SOMETHING of the HP boost all other vehicles were given. I won't even argue in favour of giving them the full 25%. But is 15% too much? Really? Anyway, these are my opinions, and my experiences to back them up. If you're not talking from legitimate high-level experience on these issues, please, PLEASE make a point of explaining how much experience you have, and in what capacity.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1665	Posted - 2013.05.30 12:53:00 - [2] - Quote Good points. +1
Cosgar's Alt Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 70	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:08:00 - [3] - Quote A lot of the problems with HAV is that they don't have their prototype anymore and the PG got nerfed while engineering is literally bugged. It's like having a standard dropsuit with militia modules that you can barely equip because you don't have your core skills maxed and going up against someone with a Duvolle. AV needs to be reworked too based on risk vs reward. Grenades are too powerful for their versatility, nearly eliminating the incentive to spec into actual AV weapons like swarm launchers and the lolplasma cannon. At the same time, the more riskier proximity mines need a significant buff and need to stop beeping whenever a tanker comes within proximity, eliminating the purpose of using them in the first place. LAVs seem fine, outside of something to put them at risk for playing Deat Race 514. I don't mind that people are using them as murder taxis, but they need something to put them at risk for doing so like taking damage for every person they run over. Right now, they're literally the TAR of vehicles because with all the LAVs I see every match, I rarely see someone dying to a turret on the kill feed. This also makes Scout LAVs even more useless since they're very effective at out maneuvering targets while keeping a steady lock on them. This is the closest thing we'll see to warthog combat from Halo, but there needs to be more incentive to do so since your front bumper gets more results for less effort. As for drop ships, they're pretty polarizing based on player skill. If the pilot is particularly skilled, having one on your side can be the deciding factor of an extended battle, any thing less and they're nothing more than an expensive WP pinata for the other team. They could benefit from a price drop and/or an HP buff to promote more usage along with them being able to have a way to generate WP like active scanning or putting a mobile CRU to use. With the CRU, I'm surprised they didn't simply add a cooldown after how gaining so many WP at one time similar to logis at this point. Automated turrets could use a rework too. They seem to be extremely accurate as of late and can even wipe out a vehicle in a team's redline from their own territory. Also, RDVs are... well, do I really need to explain? Some things never change I'm afraid... Edit: Last but not least, remote modules as a whole are entirely too cumbersome to use. The need a serious revamping to be more effective without taking a pilot's attention away from heated combat. I've suggested making the proximity based in the past, not unlike an active scanner. There have been word of mouth rumors that there are remote modules planned in the future that will do this, but this needs to be the standard, not a simple add-on. Again, it will eliminate incentive to use the ones you need a lock on to use.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1132	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:17:00 - [4] - Quote How many threads have we had on vehicles with more than enough info? Its just that IWS chooses to ignore it with stupid comments like 'learn to fly' and making threats like 'he wont tell CCP and say everything is okay' The guy is a ******* idiot
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3144	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:23:00 - [5] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: How many threads have we had on vehicles with more than enough info? Its just that IWS chooses to ignore it with stupid comments like 'learn to fly' and making threats like 'he wont tell CCP and say everything is okay' The guy is a ******* idiot He's asking for serious feedback, and saying he's willing to listen if we're willing to keep the conversation relevant. Please try to do so, and we can take him at his word. If he doesn't live up to it, that's on him. If you aren't willing or able to provide constructive feedback, then you're not giving CCP or IWS anything worth listening to. If you prove him right instead of giving him the benefit odf the doubt, there won't be any good reason for your opinion to be listened to, because all you're doing is throwing personal attacks into an otherwise productive thread. Don't focus on him, focus on the ACTUAL PROBLEMS WITH THE GAME. I know you're a good tank driver, and I know you have a lot of experience. You should be able to help a lot more than just whining about a CPM who might actually be open to listening when we present our complaints seriously.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3343	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:23:00 - [6] - Quote It's not that we don't provide good feedback, it's that the feedback is rarely taking into consideration for anything more than lip service. I've already provided far more than enough dropship feedback, I'm not wasting my time anymore.
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 120	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:24:00 - [7] - Quote The whole argument boils down to "Why shouldn't my 310,000 SP investment be able to easily destroy a 10 mil SP investment?" Or "Why can't my militia swarms take out that tank with 6700 armor?" Or "Why can't my STD AV grenade take out that yellow car?" Or "How did that tank survive that orbital? It should be dead I say!" Or "Why can't shooting my AR at it take down its shields?" That's the gist of the arguments about why vehicles are overpowered. The huge majority can't skill proficiency into AV. It's not our fault, it's theirs. I have over 10 mil SP into vehicles only. I'll be damned if STD AV grenades should easily destroy my tank.
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 120	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:27:00 - [8] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: How many threads have we had on vehicles with more than enough info? Its just that IWS chooses to ignore it with stupid comments like 'learn to fly' and making threats like 'he wont tell CCP and say everything is okay' The guy is a ******* idiot He's asking for serious feedback, and saying he's willing to listen if we're willing to keep the conversation relevant. Please try to do so, and we can take him at his word. If he doesn't live up to it, that's on him. If you aren't willing or able to provide constructive feedback, then you're not giving CCP or IWS anything worth listening to. If you prove him right instead of giving him the benefit odf the doubt, there won't be any good reason for your opinion to be listened to, because all you're doing is throwing personal attacks into an otherwise productive thread. Don't focus on him, focus on the ACTUAL PROBLEMS WITH THE GAME. I know you're a good tank driver, and I know you have a lot of experience. You should be able to help a lot more than just whining about a CPM who might actually be open to listening when we present our complaints seriously. The guy tries to fit damage mods on a Sica, and he runs out of CPU. I went heavy and tank last build, and I'm vehicle based on this build. Forges were difficult to use last build, and tanks were great. My only experience with forge now is the militia forge on the Skinweave suit. I'll sooner listen to someone with a few million into vehicles than someone running a Sica.
Cosgar's Alt Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 72	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:34:00 - [9] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: How many threads have we had on vehicles with more than enough info? Its just that IWS chooses to ignore it with stupid comments like 'learn to fly' and making threats like 'he wont tell CCP and say everything is okay' The guy is a ******* idiot I'd like to think he's just trolling, but from the way he kept trying to promote logis being limited to sidearms in response to Logi Gate, I fear otherwise...
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 786	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:35:00 - [10] - Quote Some 8M SP in Caldari LAV/HAVs, currently running around in Caldari LLAV... * Shield HAV * Basically shields, as opposed to armor, are supposed to be (in EVE) for quick boosting but has high cap drain and lower EHP, with the flexibility you get by managing the shields. However in DUST, the shield booster is by far underpowered and goes into cooldown way too early. Can't even fill up more than about 1/3 to 1/2 of my shields per activation on the gunnlogi. Basically you get damaged and then retreat for a few minutes. Or, if you get hit and activate the shield booster (cause else you often go boom), then turns out you don't need to boost as much as required... And that means you need to retreat cause you don't go into a firefight with the shield booster in cooldown. Basically shields should regenerate boost cycles while the shield booster is inactive, rather than have it all happen during the long-ass cooldown and wasted boosting. It could even be like the blaster overheating, where if you let it run out it will need to regenerate all the cycles before being possible to activate again. Also did I mention it boost hp like a little girl? Note on the controls; just let us check an option box to have it not flip the turning direction between forward / back on the stick. I can get used to that. * Shield LAV * LLAVs are the only vehicles that seem balanced in regards to the AV they face, with proper impact damage implemented. (Not excessive, hitting a guy shouldn't hurt that much) The HP boosting was the only sane and balanced change CCP's done to vehicles in a long time. And AV grenades really shouldn't be a solution to an LAV speeding past you, at best they should be effective against almost-stationary targets. Actually the whole premise of AV grenades as they are, flying towards vehicles, etc, easy to fit with no negative impact to the infantry, means that they aren't something AV spec'ed guys fit, it's what everyone fits. Either make the AV grenades harder to fit such that fielding them costs you something in terms of anti-infantry capability, or balance them so that they are comparable against HAVs as they are now against LAVs.

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3147	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:37:00 - [11] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: I'll sooner listen to someone with a few million into vehicles than someone running a Sica. Me too. That's what I'm ASKING for. But nobody with any HAV investment seems interested in saying anything so far. Can we please try and do this, guys? Please? If we can actually present things rationally instead of killing the thread off by whining about IWS, maybe someone will actually listen. So far, all I'm seeing is exactly what he's complaining about - a lack of any attempt to EXPLAIN the problems. IWS asked the vehicle experts to provide constructive feedback. I tried asking for that as well. "IWS is an idiot" doesn't qualify as constructive feedback. Neither does "I'm sick of trying". Can we please get back on-topic and ACTUALLY DISCUSS VEHICLES IN A VEHICLE THREAD?
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1136	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:42:00 - [12] - Quote Im writing my own threadnaught up in word atm, i may also copy and paste in here but i dont expect much from CPM and i expect alot of tears from non vehicle and prob AV nade users
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1513	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:58:00 - [13] - Quote We already have half a dozen detailed threads on dropship needs, going into fitting, handling, WP rewards, mission viability, AV countermeasures, module improvements, and cost. Repeating one tenth of that content here isn't going to improve anything. I do have hopes that CCP Blam has read a number of our threads and has plans for the future. I also hope IWS is being more conscientious than his flippant comments suggest, but throwing off "Fly better" in a thread discussing the dearth of WP rewards for dropship pilots revealed a lack of comprehension of the thread and/or disregard for the issue that makes me wonder.
Sir Meode Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 611	Posted - 2013.05.30 14:19:00 - [14] - Quote SOON
Panther Alpha Commando Perkone Caldari State 333	Posted - 2013.05.30 14:23:00 - [15] - Quote Did we made lots of topics exactly like this one in the Open Beta... ? D+¬j+á Vu !!
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 271	Posted - 2013.05.30 14:27:00 - [16] - Quote LOL to AV counter measures. Yes, lets take the class with the highest time to kill of any class (AV users) who already spend half their time in said loadout being useless chasing vehicles, and make it so when they finally get a good jump on a vehicle and damge it enough so they can finish it...said vehicle can just pop some flares or something to avoid the damage. Counter measures work good in games like BF3 where AV kills you in one hit. When it takes 4-10 hits, nope.
Halador Osiris Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 369	Posted - 2013.05.30 14:46:00 - [17] - Quote 7.4M in Caldari Dropships here, and I run almost exclusively Pythons. I feel like dropships get about 10% of the attention that tanks do on the forums. I've never been a fan of armor tanking, so I can't comment on Gallente dropships, and I only spent a limited time with a logistics dropship before I streamlined my SP with my respec, so I'll really just talk about Pythons. PG: Pythons really don't have powergrid issues. People might complain and say they do, but those people want everything. You can't run 3 extenders, a booster, 2 damage mods, and blasters. You can either run a very tanky dropship with 3 extenders/booster and 2 power diagnostic units, or you can run an attack craft with 2 extenders/booster/resist amplifier/2 damage mods. If you're trying to equip a CRU on it, you aren't comprehending what an attack ship is for. HP: Pythons make up for health with maneuverability, but when you can be 2-3 shotted by a railgun there isn't much room to act. As for everything else, it seems to pay off. Railguns: If it took 1 more shot to take me down, I'd be OK with that Swarm launchers: Easily outran, and 1-2 launchers can be absorbed for a little bit before you've got to bug out. I think they are OK as they are. Forge Guns: Lower tier forge guns aren't that scary, but the higher end ones can take 4/5 of my health in one shot. They aren't quite as bad as railguns, but a bit more health would still be desirable. AV Nades: Every now and then, I fly low and get peppered by AV nades. If you are in a dropship and you die to AV nades, you need to petition CCP for a respec into something else. Hold L1 and you're home free. No complaints about AV nades. Turrets: It's really hard to hold a blaster steady on somebody, so missiles are my preferred option. They don't take much PG, so that goes back to our first section. I honestly wish I could get rid of my side turrets, I spend so much time moving my ship to line up my own shots that anybody on my turret tends to shoot me more than the enemy (which is annoying as it throws the ship around). I just throw ST-1's in there to cut costs and CPU (I also didn't max out my CPU skills because I don't need to in order to run my fit). Red Line: The red line infuriates me. I have no counter against tanks and forge gunners in the red line. FGs are easier to deal with as they have little range, but HAVs can fire clear across the map without exposing themselves. Everybody seems to argue that I should grab a FG and go hunt them down, but the process of doing that would take me like 90 seconds to get back to their red line, and then they'd just take cover.
Tech Ohm Eaven L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 528	Posted - 2013.05.30 15:04:00 - [18] - Quote Wrykomi proto swarm launcher plus damage mods plus proficiency= kill everything!!! right? right? Wrong! Spot a LLAV and shoot it and shoot it again and it still drives away like nothing. I loled and said screw this useless swarm noise. After the respec I said goodbye to useless swarms and useless lasers. From now on I use militia forge or militia swarms that for some strange reason seem to work with a bit less damage but zero SP investment.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 1920	Posted - 2013.05.30 18:36:00 - [19] - Quote Halador Osiris wrote: 7.4M in Caldari Dropships here, and I run almost exclusively Pythons. I feel like dropships get about 10% of the attention that tanks do on the forums. I've never been a fan of armor tanking, so I can't comment on Gallente dropships, and I only spent a limited time with a logistics dropship before I streamlined my SP with my respec, so I'll really just talk about Pythons. PG: Pythons really don't have powergrid issues. People might complain and say they do, but those people want everything. You can't run 3 extenders, a booster, 2 damage mods, and blasters. You can either run a very tanky dropship with 3 extenders/booster and 2 power diagnostic units, or you can run an attack craft with 2 extenders/booster/resist amplifier/2 damage mods. If you're trying to equip a CRU on it, you aren't comprehending what an attack ship is for. HP: Pythons make up for health with maneuverability, but when you can be 2-3 shotted by a railgun there isn't much room to act. As for everything else, it seems to pay off. Railguns: If it took 1 more shot to take me down, I'd be OK with that Swarm launchers: Easily outran, and 1-2 launchers can be absorbed for a little bit before you've got to bug out. I think they are OK as they are. Forge Guns: Lower tier forge guns aren't that scary, but the higher end ones can take 4/5 of my health in one shot. They aren't quite as bad as railguns, but a bit more health would still be desirable. AV Nades: Every now and then, I fly low and get peppered by AV nades. If you are in a dropship and you die to AV nades, you need to petition CCP for a respec into something else. Hold L1 and you're home free. No complaints about AV nades. Turrets: It's really hard to hold a blaster steady on somebody, so missiles are my preferred option. They don't take much PG, so that goes back to our first section. I honestly wish I could get rid of my side turrets, I spend so much time moving my ship to line up my own shots that anybody on my turret tends to shoot me more than the enemy (which is annoying as it throws the ship around). I just throw ST-1's in there to cut costs and CPU (I also didn't max out my CPU skills because I don't need to in order to run my fit). Red Line: The red line infuriates me. I have no counter against tanks and forge gunners in the red line. FGs are easier to deal with as they have little range, but HAVs can fire clear across the map without exposing themselves. Everybody seems to argue that I should grab a FG and go hunt them down, but the process of doing that would take me like 90 seconds to get back to their red line, and then they'd just take cover. Halador has summed things up quite nicely, but I would disagree slightly on PG, all we need is a 5-10% increase, because right now I keep running into situations where I'm 20-40 PG over the limit, it's incredibly frustrating, but he does have a point that you need to comprise. As haldidor also said, the ADS trades health for maneuverability, but that tends to count for squat when you get 2 shotted before you can take advantage of it. It would also be nice if we could remove the side turrets from the ADS, it really doesn't need them, and it would allow for more freedom in our fitting.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 4790	Posted - 2013.05.30 19:54:00 - [20] - Quote Yes I am willing to listen and I would like to thank for you time to at least putting out. Things get drowned out quite often on these forums and issues die or are reborn as people keep changing their tactics and the sorts. So having a reminder something is broken is often necessary. As for the issue at hand. I mean it doesn't take 8 million skill points into vehicles to see controls are a bit fubared and in dire need of improvements. Large Missile Launchers are doing something funny when trying to shoot into the center line (the launcher looks like its playing patty cake or something), or watching what other people do in dealing with the problems and seeing them succeed or fail at it, along with dozens of success and failures involving vehicles. Overall I feel that militia is still a decent test platform for the environment because the issues that the advanced vehicle pilots can suffer can still be easily replicated at a more amplified level so to say. I mean there is no magic skill level that makes a problem disappear or appear as you level it up. I mean if a forge gun is one two shooting an ADS what chances does the militia dropship have? What does take 8 million skillpoints and countless hours of effort is to see it is not worth the SP nor time investment seeing how little you get back out of it and that is where I am believing most of the current disenfranchised pilots are coming from. That their efforts have been ought for nothing almost. This may be the reason why I view to having no issues with the Free LAVs existing as they easily countered with near/free AV means time invested on both sides and cost effort are pretty low. Now lets up the ante a bit, I know a free HAV would cause problems because I know you can pilot a Sica in a manner where you become effort inefficient to be dealt with and free AV is barely, while feasible, is not the best option to deal with the vehicle of such manner most of the time. To effectively remove such vehicle almost requires too much isk/sp/time to do so. You cannot however successfully pilot a free LAV in this manner because they're slightly upgraded from the rolling coffin status of chromosome. My greatest overall fear however is what I have been calling the teeter totter. One side of the balance goes a bit too heavy and you wind up with vehicles being too 'invincible' where cost effort getting rid of the vehicle cannot be well spent and in current LLAV. Yet if you shove it too hard the other way and nobody wants to pilot vehicles anymore, which is partially the current problem with non LAV vehicles right now. CCP has continuously tried to meet in the middle but well I am sure most of you been through those and are probably more angrier about that than I ever would be. I mean I know the entire environment is broken I shouldn't be soloing a properly escorted HAV by my lonesome in a 4,000 isk (the basic AV grenade) suit. Overall I have to agree that something is seriously broken in many place, from skills, physics, the environment, modules, and the equipment itself is in question, and I am afraid to ask about tweaking most numbers until most of the quality of life issues are resolved first, because if you fix all the quality of life issues for vehicle pilots you may wind up with no need to buff or may actually need a nerf afterwards but I don't see that happening with most vehicles. Either way if you guys can continue to discuss what is really wrong I am sure I can use this thread for CCP to listen instead of having to come up with what i think is wrong. Debate if you have to. I can safely bet however giving HP boost to the dropship would not hurt much at all. I keep pressing CCP Blam about it and he goes a bit mum over it. I also agree that a fixing to the LAV running over people needs a form of discouragement that doesn't throw the LAV out the airlock into uselessness similar to what the dropship suffered when they removed that ability from them mostly.

gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 1935	Posted - 2013.05.30 20:01:00 - [21] - Quote Honestly, a 10-20% buff is all the dropship needs, but that said we need to be carful how we push for things to be balanced. I think half the reason things are so badly balanced in regards to vehicles/AV is that we're missing huge parts of the spectrum such as amarr/minimatar racial variants, both vehicles, turrets, and AV. and we're missing whole subsets of modules such as countermeasure and EWAR.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3156	Posted - 2013.05.31 08:34:00 - [22] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I mean it doesn't take 8 million skill points into vehicles to see controls are a bit fubared and in dire need of improvements. Large Missile Launchers are doing something funny when trying to shoot into the center line (the launcher looks like its playing patty cake or something), or watching what other people do in dealing with the problems and seeing them succeed or fail at it, along with dozens of success and failures involving vehicles. Overall I feel that militia is still a decent test platform for the environment because the issues that the advanced vehicle pilots can suffer can still be easily replicated at a more amplified level so to say. I mean there is no magic skill level that makes a problem disappear or appear as you level it up. I mean if a forge gun is one two shooting an ADS what chances does the militia dropship have? There are a lot of problems you CAN identify with Militia gear. Not saying there aren't. But there are problems which DO only become apparent when you try running higher-grade tanks - and it's particularly a problem with tanks. LAVs also show off the silliness of their 60% HP buff better when you're at higher levels, but HAVs show their inability to compete at that point. For HAVs, we have: Militia: The Sica and the Soma are decent for Militia gear. Well-balanced and fair. With a few Standard items thrown into a fit, you can build something relatively good, but it's still limiting, and those non-Militia modules boost the price pretty fast even though they're only Standard (as they should). Standard: We have no Standard. We have a half-breed Standard/Advanced with the PG and CPU capacity that a Standard HAV should have, but with the extra slots, HP and cost of an Advanced tank. BUT WE DON'T HAVE THE FITTING CAPACITY TO USE IT RIGHT. If we don't get anything remotely resembling decent fitting skills (like Dropsuits have), then we need to at least have competently-designed tanks that allow for a decent level of gear to actually be fitted. Advanced: We have no advanced either. We have something that's trying to be Advanced with Standard fitting capabilities, so you can't actually load it with a full complement of Advanced gear. Prototype: NOTHING. Specialist variants: At the moment, we have the Enforcers, which are a "glass cannon" style tank. I don't use them, because that's not my playstyle. They also seem to have their own unique set of issues that only someone who skills into them will really be able to comment on. I'm holding out for a defense-focused tank, because that would better suit how I want to run my tanks. HAVs that get a bonus to Shield Extenders or Armour Plates (depending which version you get) would be nice. Or tanks with a heavy HP/resistance buff, but at the cost of firepower or range or something. Also on Enforcers, there's only one of each race. They don't scale. We have a Standard Specialist, and no Advanced or Prototype. We're missing almost our entire HAV range.
Shley Ashes One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed. 7	Posted - 2013.05.31 10:18:00 - [23] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Yes I am willing to listen and I would like to thank for you time to at least putting out. Things get drowned out quite often on these forums and issues die or are reborn as people keep changing their tactics and the sorts. So having a reminder something is broken is often necessary. rocking a whole 12.2million skill points in vehicles of the HAV variety, if that gives me any credibility at all 1. PG, powergrid is an issue end of story a 3% per level skill would resolve this issue, I've been messing with some figures and you could make a reasonably tank with 15% more PG 2. Vehicle information, scan radius/distance, Shield Damage reduction(we have armour where is shield?) draw distance ? I have a tank with light years into the future tech I should be able to see to the other side of the map even if I can't hit that far, 3. AV grenades are to powerful, they need a nerf, how much of a nerf I'm not sure however it just does, also Swarm launchers turning round corners is just ?????!?!?!?!? and the stealth technology they have employed ?? (invisible missiles) yeah that needs to be looked into, 4. Enforcer HAV's are not worth 1.3million isk, they need their bonus increased to 5% at least, one extra slot is not worth the trade off of speed reduction. 5. Also while we are on the speed issue, why is the Caldari shield tank not noticeably faster than the Gallente armour tank, I am fully aware of the EVE lore with regards to these two however that is in space, not on the the ground with a certain part of physics oh whats it called.....? oh yeah GRAVITY 6. Large Missile turrets are missing the AT-201 Accelerated Missile Launcher(Advanced Variant) from the market, missile splash damage is borked, splash not registering in some cases if target elevation is slightly higher than impact no damage is dealt, this needs to be sorted ASAP the splash radius also needs a buff have you seen the size of these missiles, probably more, there's a start
develsgun uptown456 28	Posted - 2013.05.31 10:24:00 - [24] - Quote To me the problem with av and tanks started pre chromosome right after the tanks hayday. Back then a tank took a good few people to kill but this was also early open beta if I remember correctly and I aswell as some otheres had blaimed part of the tanks invincability on the fact the people wernt willing to spec into av if a tank popped out on the field it be a experianced dust player from early in the beta and he would get about 3 people shooting at his fully specced out tank with militia launchers. I remember the forums during that time and though unfortunatly I can't find any of the threads in the archives I'm shure some of the older playefs will remember this to. Back then the non vehicle users would argue that vehicles needed ground support inorder to function. Basicly tanks lavs and dropships needed to be surrounded by hmg heavies as they tried to play their role. Now I'm not saying that they wernt right but they went to far and also expected for the 1 militia av to kill a tank no matter how high tech it was. That is just wrong. Now I'm an avid dropship pilot ever since the respec I've had over 5mill sp invested into assualt dropships and am about to hit 6mill where I finally get the fit on my incurus to be survivable in the best cercumstances. Lately I have seen some proto swarms come out and am happy to say I can take about 3-4 shots befor needing to escape to let my reppers cool. Not often does a single swark of anytype take me out though he is a real pain.for the match and that's how it should be. Occasionally I actually get teamed up on by 3 -4 swarm launchers and at that point I'm recalling my dropship if possible or staying to the outside of the map. That is how it should be. Now forge guns are overpowered. They do way to much dmg as I see half my tank go away even with about 30% dmg reduction coming from my mods and skills.even worse 4secounds later anouther blast comes in those 4 secound I got to get my repper on wich takes 4 secounds to cycle aswell I got to pick up speed to escape the forge guns massive range. If I escape I might aswell recall my dropship as that 1 forge gun can possible sit there all day almost getting me with every shot and even worse 90% of the time I never see them and can't tell any ground forces if I have any where he is so they can eather kill him or get shot by uis massive splash and high accuracy. For any of you who thin I'm joking go to the gobi desert and place some red sand in a sand storm see if u ever find it. The challenge find red sand in a sea of white sand hasicly simulating the glow of a forge gun. Now ur in a sandstorm where each grain of sand attacks ur eyes and hinders ur visability. Tyat simulates the fact were getting shot and have to stay flying while getting shot at. Now figure that ur sand storm is probally more than a mile large ya that simulates the size of the area we dropships get shot from cause unlike ground vehicles we can hide behind hills and buildings so easilly were out there in the sky with are ehp and speed are only friend. Now onto the assualt dropships role. I believe it should have the most ehp out of them all as we are suppose to be flying low enough for even assualt rifles to shoot us and were suppose to be shooting back. Sorry I can't aim that dam thing while traveling even quarter speed and I'd laugh at anyone who claims they can. Ads should have high tank but be slower as were expected to take more. Logi dropships which are expected to carry people and spawn people should have the high speed. There more of a backline fight and if they drop close to front lines they don't need to land or slow down just treat the mercs like para troopers and tell them to bail out of a perfectly good dropship. That's all I got to say hopefully I won't need to repeat this as often as usual
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 283	Posted - 2013.05.31 10:34:00 - [25] - Quote I love the biased invalid opinions. I am running proto swarms with proto damage mods and I can assure you that after the HP buff you will never be able to take out a proto fit vehicle alone with swarms if the driver is not completely braindead. -dropships bail away with super speed and they can easily absorb atleast 3 full hits without repairing -lavs bails, make turns (swarms will flyinto the ground when lav changes directions at high speed) and hides behind cover. even the free lav with no items can absorb 1 proto swarm hit (1 damage mod). -hav just absorbs some hits and hides behind some cover I have never taken out a proto fit armor tank with a good driver alone and I can forget to even try it if it is shield tanked because swarms just deal not enough damage against shields. it is not the tanks fault that the drivers stand still for 10 seconds doing nothing and eating swarm after swarm.
IamI3rian OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 96	Posted - 2013.05.31 10:49:00 - [26] - Quote Another thread I'm not gonna read all the way through, though I read the post by Garret a while ago (a few hours...) So, if this has been stated, my apologies. That said, the current imbalance between shields and armor (especially prevalent in HAV's) really needs to be addressed. Hardeners last 6 times longer for armor than they do for shields. For example. Blam! decided that big clunky armor tanks should be moving faster than shield tanks, simply because they are made by the Gallente. Which I guess is fine lorewise, but doesn't do much for balance. Then, of course, there's the issue with the 'passive' shield repairs being (essentially) useless, combined with shield boosters healing roughly half of the equivalent damage of an armor rep unit. Which is fine, when you consider that armor takes more damage from explosives.... if we had enough eHP to take more than two (decent) forge shots to begin with. As it stands armor HAV's are more durable, repairable, and...er... escapable (they move faster). I'm not much of a Dropship pilot, so I'll leave that to the others. As for LAV's, I think that's been covered too. Anyway, that's my take.
Shley Ashes One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed. 7	Posted - 2013.05.31 10:55:00 - [27] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: I love the biased invalid opinions. I have never taken out a proto fit armor tank with a good driver alone and I can forget to even try it if it is shield tanked because swarms just deal not enough damage against shields. it is not the tanks fault that the drivers stand still for 10 seconds doing nothing and eating swarm after swarm. What proto fit tank ????? because tbh even it it was a proto tank or a tank that has some new proto fit, you shouldn't be able to solo it, and as for biased, I ran the militia swarm setup the other day, and I managed the kill a gunmlogi(shield tank) and some others, perhaps I had some help form other blueberries however point is, concentrated fire and HAV's drop, they just can't stand up to it, and that's how its supposed to be, not ONE solo guy with a swarm launcher(even proto) taking out vehicles, however I do agree with you on the LOLLav's should take like one proto swarm on the militia version,
Princeps Marcellus Expert Intervention Caldari State 31	Posted - 2013.05.31 11:01:00 - [28] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I mean it doesn't take 8 million skill points into vehicles to see controls are a bit fubared and in dire need of improvements. Large Missile Launchers are doing something funny when trying to shoot into the center line (the launcher looks like its playing patty cake or something), or watching what other people do in dealing with the problems and seeing them succeed or fail at it, along with dozens of success and failures involving vehicles. Overall I feel that militia is still a decent test platform for the environment because the issues that the advanced vehicle pilots can suffer can still be easily replicated at a more amplified level so to say. I mean there is no magic skill level that makes a problem disappear or appear as you level it up. I mean if a forge gun is one two shooting an ADS what chances does the militia dropship have? There are a lot of problems you CAN identify with Militia gear. Not saying there aren't. But there are problems which DO only become apparent when you try running higher-grade tanks - and it's particularly a problem with tanks. LAVs also show off the silliness of their 60% HP buff better when you're at higher levels, but HAVs show their inability to compete at that point. For HAVs, we have: Militia: The Sica and the Soma are decent for Militia gear. Well-balanced and fair. With a few Standard items thrown into a fit, you can build something relatively good, but it's still limiting, and those non-Militia modules boost the price pretty fast even though they're only Standard (as they should). Standard: We have no Standard. We have a half-breed Standard/Advanced with the PG and CPU capacity that a Standard HAV should have, but with the extra slots, HP and cost of an Advanced tank. BUT WE DON'T HAVE THE FITTING CAPACITY TO USE IT RIGHT. If we don't get anything remotely resembling decent fitting skills (like Dropsuits have), then we need to at least have competently-designed tanks that allow for a decent level of gear to actually be fitted. Advanced: We have no advanced either. We have something that's trying to be Advanced with Standard fitting capabilities, so you can't actually load it with a full complement of Advanced gear. Prototype: NOTHING. Specialist variants: At the moment, we have the Enforcers, which are a "glass cannon" style tank. I don't use them, because that's not my playstyle. They also seem to have their own unique set of issues that only someone who skills into them will really be able to comment on. I'm holding out for a defense-focused tank, because that would better suit how I want to run my tanks. HAVs that get a bonus to Shield Extenders or Armour Plates (depending which version you get) would be nice. Or tanks with a heavy HP/resistance buff, but at the cost of firepower or range or something. Also on Enforcers, there's only one of each race. They don't scale. We have a Standard Specialist, and no Advanced or Prototype. We're missing almost our entire HAV range. You are a wonderful person. Here, have this!
BOZ MR Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 181	Posted - 2013.05.31 11:03:00 - [29] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: How many threads have we had on vehicles with more than enough info? Its just that IWS chooses to ignore it with stupid comments like 'learn to fly' and making threats like 'he wont tell CCP and say everything is okay' The guy is a ******* idiot Who? Iron Wolf Scru+ƒ ? Yeah I think so. Him and Jenza are the r3tard3d HAV haters.
Felix Faraday KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 41	Posted - 2013.05.31 12:52:00 - [30] - Quote [quote=gbghg]Honestly, a 10-20% buff is all the dropship needs...quote] The exact % buff doesn't really matter. We need to be able to take more than 1-2 shots before exploding, or having some way to react to it. Either through resistance or health or counter measures. I'd even take an extra high-slot for my Python, if CPU/PG got a small boost to sustain it. It would give me more flexibility. Right now, a 10% buff at most would give us ~350 more hp... which wouldn't do squat, we would still go pop on the second shot.

IamI3rian OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 103	Posted - 2013.05.31 12:54:00 - [31] - Quote Felix Faraday wrote: [quote=gbghg]Honestly, a 10-20% buff is all the dropship needs...quote] The exact % buff doesn't really matter. We need to be able to take more than 1-2 shots before exploding, or having some way to react to it. Either through resistance or health or counter measures. I'd even take an extra high-slot for my Python, if CPU/PG got a small boost to sustain it. It would give me more flexibility. Right now, a 10% buff at most would give us ~350 more hp... which wouldn't do squat, we would still go pop on the second shot. Would be nice not to be ROCKED when you get hit with anything too. = /
Felix Faraday KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 42	Posted - 2013.05.31 13:02:00 - [32] - Quote IamI3rian wrote: Would be nice not to be ROCKED when you get hit with anything too. = / I actually like this. I expect to get knocked around if missiles are slamming into the side of my ship. It takes a little skill to keep it under control and get out of there, especially if you are flying low in a city area. I like things that rely more on pilot ability rather than just crunching numbers (x missile - y shields = kaboom!).
IamI3rian OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 104	Posted - 2013.05.31 13:06:00 - [33] - Quote Felix Faraday wrote: IamI3rian wrote: Would be nice not to be ROCKED when you get hit with anything too. = / I actually like this. I expect to get knocked around if missiles are slamming into the side of my ship. It takes a little skill to keep it under control and get out of there, especially if you are flying low in a city area. I like things that rely more on pilot ability rather than just crunching numbers (x missile - y shields = kaboom!). Whatever... I'm a 'fair' pilot at best. I suppose you're right though. Maybe one day I'll be good enough to take a few missiles in the side without careening out of control into the first thing tall enough to hit. = ) I'd like some inherent resistance to damage though... something to let us take more than one hit from a forge without catching fire. = /
Felix Faraday KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 42	Posted - 2013.05.31 13:08:00 - [34] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: My greatest overall fear however is what I have been calling the teeter totter. One side of the balance goes a bit too heavy and you wind up with vehicles being too 'invincible' where cost effort getting rid of the vehicle cannot be well spent and in current LLAV. The problem with this is that while tanks seem to be "closer" to being overall balanced (they still have their issues, but I've met some well fitted tanks that are hard to kill)... dropships seem to be left out in the cold because of this. I mean, seriously, not even getting WP for being a mobile CRU? When infantry can just drop an uplink doing the exact same thing? I get not wanting to over-compensate, but instead they are doing NOTHING at all.
Felix Faraday KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 42	Posted - 2013.05.31 13:13:00 - [35] - Quote IamI3rian wrote: Maybe one day I'll be good enough to take a few missiles in the side without careening out of control into the first thing tall enough to hit. = ) Just try and remember what buildings/obstacles are near you, and go in the other direction when you get hit. I'm definitely not perfect. I've gotten turned around a few times. Got hit by a few missiles, turned on my afterburner and banked super-hard gaining tons of speed..... right into the side of a building and a pretty explosion. :facepalm: The times you do it right though, and pull evasive maneuvers in between the cranes and buildings, feels pretty nice.
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard General Tso's Alliance 45	Posted - 2013.05.31 13:16:00 - [36] - Quote Tech Ohm Eaven wrote: Wrykomi proto swarm launcher plus damage mods plus proficiency= kill everything!!! right? right? Wrong! Spot a LLAV and shoot it and shoot it again and it still drives away like nothing. I loled and said screw this useless swarm noise. After the respec I said goodbye to useless swarms and useless lasers. From now on I use militia forge or militia swarms that for some strange reason seem to work with a bit less damage but zero SP investment. Am behind this comment, am speccing AV and these LLAVs are just TANKs, they literally act like the damn batmobile when you spank missle after missle after them for zero impact. CCP PLEASE implement a damage modifier of some kind that is reverse to what is happening in eve. IE the faster a LAV goes the more dmg it takes from AV. I shant hold onto hope though, CCP murdered missles back in 2004 and hasn't done a thing about them since
Felix Faraday KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 42	Posted - 2013.05.31 13:18:00 - [37] - Quote One thing that would be cool, would be the ability to shoot down swarms coming at you. At least with the pilot's main gun. If you can get your ADS facing the right direction, and aim well enough to put your missiles right in the path of the oncoming ones, it would be pretty neat if they all exploded. But that would just be a fun trick. Swarms aren't our real problem, FG and Rails are.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3379	Posted - 2013.05.31 13:34:00 - [38] - Quote Felix Faraday wrote: IamI3rian wrote: Would be nice not to be ROCKED when you get hit with anything too. = / I actually like this. I expect to get knocked around if missiles are slamming into the side of my ship. It takes a little skill to keep it under control and get out of there, especially if you are flying low in a city area. I like things that rely more on pilot ability rather than just crunching numbers (x missile - y shields = kaboom!). Yea, I personally like that. I already miss my dropship, I really wanted to be a dropship specialist, but the frustration isn't good for my mental state :/ I might throw together a video for my dropship feedback ::shrugs:: Fly safe o7
Charlotte O'Dell Molon Labe. League of Infamy 386	Posted - 2013.05.31 13:37:00 - [39] - Quote Give 5%/lvl PG skill back Reduce mlt LAV HP by 65% Give us true ADV and PRO HAVs and dropships (LLAVs are pretty much PRO already. lol) Increase DS HP by 30% Nerf AV nade dmg by 30% Problem solved. Vehicle balance achieved.


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