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Request] Remove free LAV's and AV grenades

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Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 289	Posted - 2013.05.23 15:52:00 - [1] - Quote Free LAV's as I'm sure most people will now agree, the Veterans more than the new guys probably but the ability to get a free suit loadout as well as a free LAV is unfair to older players because now their being abused, I'm a tank driver and its annoying for me to watch people get killed despite the Proto their wearing by a car hitting them that cost the driver nothing when Proto fits are looking to be 200,00 isk+. AV Grenades I feel should be removed or nerfed to make full AV roles more Viable. At the moment People can skill up into grenades for Locus and Flux to carry with their AR weapons ect. However with AV grenades doing such high damage, Their proving a better choice than actual AV weapons. The Proto Type breach forge gun deals 2772 on a direct hit, require you to stand still while aiming, meaning a tank or LAV or Dropship can get to safety since you can't move to chase them and it takes 6 seconds to charge up a shot. The Breach Forge gun is meant to be the TRUE AV weapon, rivaling even tank railguns yet Proto packed AV grenades deal 4000 damage. I understand the arguement of having to get close to use them, but unless the tank isn't the fight, Grenades are always in range. Also, who here who uses Proto Grenades have thought it wasn't worth the risk to get that litte bit closer while in cover to the tank to deal 12,000 damage one your own to it in the time it takes a Breach Forge to charge up. From what I seen the main arguement for keeping AV grenades has been that people are abusing the free LAV's, By getting rid of free LAV's, if people want transport or to run people over they either have to spend points into vehicles themselves and pay isk or know someone who has done. Also with the removal of AV grenades, Swarm launcher, forge gun and plasma weapon users would become more needed.
The DEFECANDO KILL ORDERS 0	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:01:00 - [2] - Quote I agree. The grenades detract from the benefit of suiting an AV role. Tanks need to be buffed ALOTin terms of HP. . . . . and the militia LAV's are getting annoying. Make them cost something.
NextDark Slougher Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:24:00 - [3] - Quote stop complaining about lavs .. they are super easy to kill and great warpoints for the team.
Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 291	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:30:00 - [4] - Quote NextDark Slougher wrote: stop complaining about lavs .. they are super easy to kill and great warpoints for the team. Your right, we should all just go free stuff from now on
Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 291	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:32:00 - [5] - Quote The DEFECANDO wrote: I agree. The grenades detract from the benefit of suiting an AV role. Tanks need to be buffed ALOTin terms of HP. . . . . and the militia LAV's are getting annoying. Make them cost something. I don't feel tanks need any buff really, their fine I feel, Just AV grenades just seem too powerful as they are.
X-eon Molon Labe. League of Infamy 7	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:36:00 - [6] - Quote What do you say, removing free LAV's and adding an individual skill tree for each grenade type?
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 26	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:43:00 - [7] - Quote I imagine that it has something to do with the paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock mentality of Dust. While it sucks losing an expensive loadout, there needs to be a legitimate counter to that playstyle, other than another expensive loadout of the same type. IMHO, every playstyle should have at least two other playstyles it is stong against, and two that it is weak against. And someone with prototype AV grenades has invested a lot of SP, just like anyone else fielding a prototype weapon system. Grenades have a weakness; you have to get really close to use them. Unlike forge guns and swarm launchers, which allow you to attack at range. If you play in prototype gear, then know that there are counters to your playstyle, and that there are counters to the counters. Have an AV loadout and support your squad. I'm not an HAV pilot, but, Tanks have always been weak when not supported by infantry. Modern anti-tank infantry have numerous man portable systems that can disable or destroy lone tanks. So, recognize that you are weak without infantry support and adapt. paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock! It is all part of the balance.
Xender17 Murderz for hire 90	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:48:00 - [8] - Quote alten hilt wrote: I imagine that it has something to do with the paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock mentality of Dust. While it sucks losing an expensive loadout, there needs to be a legitimate counter to that playstyle, other than another expensive loadout of the same type. IMHO, every playstyle should have at least two other playstyles it is stong against, and two that it is weak against. And someone with prototype AV grenades has invested a lot of SP, just like anyone else fielding a prototype weapon system. Grenades have a weakness; you have to get really close to use them. Unlike forge guns and swarm launchers, which allow you to attack at range. If you play in prototype gear, then know that there are counters to your playstyle, and that there are counters to the counters. Have an AV loadout and support your squad. I'm not an HAV pilot, but, Tanks have always been weak when not supported by infantry. Modern anti-tank infantry have numerous man portable systems that can disable or destroy lone tanks. So, recognize that you are weak without infantry support and adapt. paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock! It is all part of the balance. I'm pretty positive if we developed shields that would completely change. Even against Anti-shield equipment.
CAELAN Andoril Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 20	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:48:00 - [9] - Quote I'd prefer AV grenades requiring higher skills than it does now. Not a separate skill or anything, but for instance make STD AV grenades require LVL 3 Grenadier rather than LVL 1. That way they kind of have to specialise in order to get them. They'll be easier to get than other AV options, but not too easily available. Also, the Hacked variant or whichever one that doesn't require skills: get rid of it. That one's a load of crap and I refuse to use it on principle.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 500	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:52:00 - [10] - Quote Lol, no.

alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 26	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:52:00 - [11] - Quote Xender17 wrote: alten hilt wrote: I imagine that it has something to do with the paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock mentality of Dust. While it sucks losing an expensive loadout, there needs to be a legitimate counter to that playstyle, other than another expensive loadout of the same type. IMHO, every playstyle should have at least two other playstyles it is stong against, and two that it is weak against. And someone with prototype AV grenades has invested a lot of SP, just like anyone else fielding a prototype weapon system. Grenades have a weakness; you have to get really close to use them. Unlike forge guns and swarm launchers, which allow you to attack at range. If you play in prototype gear, then know that there are counters to your playstyle, and that there are counters to the counters. Have an AV loadout and support your squad. I'm not an HAV pilot, but, Tanks have always been weak when not supported by infantry. Modern anti-tank infantry have numerous man portable systems that can disable or destroy lone tanks. So, recognize that you are weak without infantry support and adapt. paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock! It is all part of the balance. I'm pretty positive if we developed shields that would completely change. Even against Anti-shield equipment. And once someone developed shields, someone else would develop a counter to the shield. It's the cycle of warfare. One nation develops a better weapon, another develops armor to counter that weaopn. And so on, and so on.
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 26	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:58:00 - [12] - Quote CAELAN Andoril wrote: I'd prefer AV grenades requiring higher skills than it does now. Not a separate skill or anything, but for instance make STD AV grenades require LVL 3 Grenadier rather than LVL 1. That way they kind of have to specialise in order to get them. They'll be easier to get than other AV options, but not too easily available. Also, the Hacked variant or whichever one that doesn't require skills: get rid of it. That one's a load of crap and I refuse to use it on principle. Why requre grenades to have a different skill progression? It is a viable weapon, just like your AR, Forge, SMG, or pistol. If anything it should have speciallization skills just like all the other weapons. Same with explosives.
Eskimorris SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 3	Posted - 2013.05.23 17:23:00 - [13] - Quote War isn't fair huh? :D
Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 292	Posted - 2013.05.23 17:23:00 - [14] - Quote alten hilt wrote: I imagine that it has something to do with the paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock mentality of Dust. While it sucks losing an expensive loadout, there needs to be a legitimate counter to that playstyle, other than another expensive loadout of the same type. IMHO, every playstyle should have at least two other playstyles it is stong against, and two that it is weak against. And someone with prototype AV grenades has invested a lot of SP, just like anyone else fielding a prototype weapon system. Grenades have a weakness; you have to get really close to use them. Unlike forge guns and swarm launchers, which allow you to attack at range. If you play in prototype gear, then know that there are counters to your playstyle, and that there are counters to the counters. Have an AV loadout and support your squad. I'm not an HAV pilot, but, Tanks have always been weak when not supported by infantry. Modern anti-tank infantry have numerous man portable systems that can disable or destroy lone tanks. So, recognize that you are weak without infantry support and adapt. paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock! It is all part of the balance. The problem is Proto AV grenades are simply a better choice for AV than anything else, they do more damage, are more accurate and much cheaper and do not take up a weapon slot.
Rachoi HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 74	Posted - 2013.05.23 17:31:00 - [15] - Quote AV grenades are rather high risk, low pay out if you look at it. proper tanks dont fear them, and they are only useful as supporting the damage done by Swarms, and Forge guns. as for the MLT LAV..... drop it's health, that's about all i can say about it, because of the murder taxi driving around side note.... AV grenades are useful for blowing up free LAVs
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 26	Posted - 2013.05.23 17:39:00 - [16] - Quote Coleman Gray wrote: alten hilt wrote: I imagine that it has something to do with the paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock mentality of Dust. While it sucks losing an expensive loadout, there needs to be a legitimate counter to that playstyle, other than another expensive loadout of the same type. IMHO, every playstyle should have at least two other playstyles it is stong against, and two that it is weak against. And someone with prototype AV grenades has invested a lot of SP, just like anyone else fielding a prototype weapon system. Grenades have a weakness; you have to get really close to use them. Unlike forge guns and swarm launchers, which allow you to attack at range. If you play in prototype gear, then know that there are counters to your playstyle, and that there are counters to the counters. Have an AV loadout and support your squad. I'm not an HAV pilot, but, Tanks have always been weak when not supported by infantry. Modern anti-tank infantry have numerous man portable systems that can disable or destroy lone tanks. So, recognize that you are weak without infantry support and adapt. paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock! It is all part of the balance. The problem is Proto AV grenades are simply a better choice for AV than anything else, they do more damage, are more accurate and much cheaper and do not take up a weapon slot. But even other AV weapon systems benefit from AV grenades because EVERYONE has a grenade slot. So when that LAV or HAV gets close to the anti-vehicle soldier, they can switch to the grenade and still be effective. The AV grenadier will still have to get close to use grenades. And if that LAV/HAV is supported by infantry.gunners, that granadier is going to have a hard time getting close. The only people who don't benefit much from the grenade slot are the tankers, but you also don't benefit from your weapon slot, or your secondary slot, or any of your dropsuit module slots. Maybe when you get a pilot dropsuit there will be modules that reduce the effectiveness of AV weapons.
Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 292	Posted - 2013.05.23 17:45:00 - [17] - Quote Rachoi wrote: AV grenades are rather high risk, low pay out if you look at it. proper tanks dont fear them, and they are only useful as supporting the damage done by Swarms, and Forge guns. as for the MLT LAV..... drop it's health, that's about all i can say about it, because of the murder taxi driving around side note.... AV grenades are useful for blowing up free LAVs average proto it for suits is 200,000 isk round about. A tank fitting your looking at 1 mill isk area. Lai Dai Packed grenades cost 23,610 and deal 4k damage each. so on average it takes 2 grenades to kill a tank. Unless you heavily use damage reduction which if you go all out you may manage to get a window of 50% dmg reduction. so their only dealing 2k damage instead, so 6k damage per person against a fully activated tank. So only ever at most takes two people to carry them to kill a tank. You can throw them over cover ect so the tank can't even shoot you. and by the time you notice the first one hitting you, the second one less than a second after kills you. It's low risk High reward I'll think you'll find. lets put aside WP ect earned from it and lets think about the effort and isk put in. A tanker will never get profit from a match he's lost his tank in,it takes like 3 games on average to make up for a tank loss. You lose a dropsuit fitting, your still in profit. Swarm launchers and Forge gunners have to risk being shot at to aim, Grenadiers can run behind a box and toss a grenade from safety and deal more damage.
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 26	Posted - 2013.05.23 18:26:00 - [18] - Quote Coleman Gray wrote: Rachoi wrote: AV grenades are rather high risk, low pay out if you look at it. proper tanks dont fear them, and they are only useful as supporting the damage done by Swarms, and Forge guns. as for the MLT LAV..... drop it's health, that's about all i can say about it, because of the murder taxi driving around side note.... AV grenades are useful for blowing up free LAVs average proto it for suits is 200,000 isk round about. A tank fitting your looking at 1 mill isk area. Lai Dai Packed grenades cost 23,610 and deal 4k damage each. so on average it takes 2 grenades to kill a tank. Unless you heavily use damage reduction which if you go all out you may manage to get a window of 50% dmg reduction. so their only dealing 2k damage instead, so 6k damage per person against a fully activated tank. So only ever at most takes two people to carry them to kill a tank. You can throw them over cover ect so the tank can't even shoot you. and by the time you notice the first one hitting you, the second one less than a second after kills you. It's low risk High reward I'll think you'll find. lets put aside WP ect earned from it and lets think about the effort and isk put in. A tanker will never get profit from a match he's lost his tank in,it takes like 3 games on average to make up for a tank loss. You lose a dropsuit fitting, your still in profit. Swarm launchers and Forge gunners have to risk being shot at to aim, Grenadiers can run behind a box and toss a grenade from safety and deal more damage. You're implying that Grenadiers don't need to risk anything in order to kill you, which is, IMHO, completely false. Proto grenades have high fitting requirements, which means that the grenadier will have to sacrifice tank and DPS in order to fit them on MLT/STD suits. If the grenadier tries to reduce his ISK loss in this way, then he is a glass cannon and even a glancing blow from an HAV's guns or any supporting infantry is going to kill him. If the Grenadier goes with ADV/PRO suits he is risking a lot of ISK to basically charge up to the HAV. Grenades can be thrown 10 - 30 meters, which is well inside an HAV's maximum damage range. The Granadier has to risk the HAV's guns, plus infantry guns to get very close in order to throw those grenades. If the tanker is fighting in a tank's ideal environment (i.e. open ground) then those prototype grenades are absolutely useless against you, even if you don't have infantry support, because you have the advantage: excellent visibility, limited cover, limited concealment, excellent manouverability. If an HAV dies in this environment, then I recommend more situational awareness, because the HAV has every advantage. Now the scenario you describe is something else entirely. Close quarters urban combat is a tanks most vulnerable environment. Even with good infantry support, the tanker is at his weakest for exactly the reasons you stated: blind corners, lots of cover, limited visibility. limited manouverability . If the HAV tanker drives into a CQC environment, then it is his own fault when he is destroyed by infantry. The HAV eliminated all of his natural advantages and accepted all of the disadvantages of the situation. It is frustrating to be blown up by such a small, insignificant weapon, but AV grenades have a limited role with various strengths and weaknesses; just like the various strengths and weaknesses that the HAV has. So I repeat, paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock.
Rachoi HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 76	Posted - 2013.05.23 18:41:00 - [19] - Quote alten hilt wrote: (...) You're implying that Grenadiers don't need to risk anything in order to kill you, which is, IMHO, completely false. Proto grenades have high fitting requirements, which means that the grenadier will have to sacrifice tank and DPS in order to fit them on MLT/STD suits. If the grenadier tries to reduce his ISK loss in this way, then he is a glass cannon and even a glancing blow from an HAV's guns or any supporting infantry is going to kill him. If the Grenadier goes with ADV/PRO suits he is risking a lot of ISK to basically charge up to the HAV. Grenades can be thrown 10 - 30 meters, which is well inside an HAV's maximum damage range. The Granadier has to risk the HAV's guns, plus infantry guns to get very close in order to throw those grenades. If the tanker is fighting in a tank's ideal environment (i.e. open ground) then those prototype grenades are absolutely useless against you, even if you don't have infantry support, because you have the advantage: excellent visibility, limited cover, limited concealment, excellent manouverability. If an HAV dies in this environment, then I recommend more situational awareness, because the HAV has every advantage. Now the scenario you describe is something else entirely. Close quarters urban combat is a tanks most vulnerable environment. Even with good infantry support, the tanker is at his weakest for exactly the reasons you stated: blind corners, lots of cover, limited visibility. limited manouverability . If the HAV tanker drives into a CQC environment, then it is his own fault when he is destroyed by infantry. The HAV eliminated all of his natural advantages and accepted all of the disadvantages of the situation. It is frustrating to be blown up by such a small, insignificant weapon, but AV grenades have a limited role with various strengths and weaknesses; just like the various strengths and weaknesses that the HAV has. So I repeat, paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock. Exactly true. also, your readings on even Proto damage AV grenades is not entirely true, because i've seen Lai Dai thrown at a tank, it took close to eight. and the tank still got away. you must remember if you are rolling a tank into a close in area, to not go in without support. lets face it AV grenades are more of a tacked on back up if you get ambushed by a tank. and more often than not.... you brought in the tank in the first freaking place, so expecting not to get blown up is sheer idiocy. in the old intro vid, its even said YOU WILL DIE.... not a preception, it is a FACT. so even in your tank, expect to die, and do what you can not to, because be it SL, FG, Plasma Cannon, or AV grenades, some one will take your tank out
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 137	Posted - 2013.05.23 19:11:00 - [20] - Quote Rachoi wrote: alten hilt wrote: (...) You're implying that Grenadiers don't need to risk anything in order to kill you, which is, IMHO, completely false. Proto grenades have high fitting requirements, which means that the grenadier will have to sacrifice tank and DPS in order to fit them on MLT/STD suits. If the grenadier tries to reduce his ISK loss in this way, then he is a glass cannon and even a glancing blow from an HAV's guns or any supporting infantry is going to kill him. If the Grenadier goes with ADV/PRO suits he is risking a lot of ISK to basically charge up to the HAV. Grenades can be thrown 10 - 30 meters, which is well inside an HAV's maximum damage range. The Granadier has to risk the HAV's guns, plus infantry guns to get very close in order to throw those grenades. If the tanker is fighting in a tank's ideal environment (i.e. open ground) then those prototype grenades are absolutely useless against you, even if you don't have infantry support, because you have the advantage: excellent visibility, limited cover, limited concealment, excellent manouverability. If an HAV dies in this environment, then I recommend more situational awareness, because the HAV has every advantage. Now the scenario you describe is something else entirely. Close quarters urban combat is a tanks most vulnerable environment. Even with good infantry support, the tanker is at his weakest for exactly the reasons you stated: blind corners, lots of cover, limited visibility. limited manouverability . If the HAV tanker drives into a CQC environment, then it is his own fault when he is destroyed by infantry. The HAV eliminated all of his natural advantages and accepted all of the disadvantages of the situation. It is frustrating to be blown up by such a small, insignificant weapon, but AV grenades have a limited role with various strengths and weaknesses; just like the various strengths and weaknesses that the HAV has. So I repeat, paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock. Exactly true. also, your readings on even Proto damage AV grenades is not entirely true, because i've seen Lai Dai thrown at a tank, it took close to eight. and the tank still got away. you must remember if you are rolling a tank into a close in area, to not go in without support. lets face it AV grenades are more of a tacked on back up if you get ambushed by a tank. and more often than not.... you brought in the tank in the first freaking place, so expecting not to get blown up is sheer idiocy. in the old intro vid, its even said YOU WILL DIE.... not a preception, it is a FACT. so even in your tank, expect to die, and do what you can not to, because be it SL, FG, Plasma Cannon, or AV grenades, some one will take your tank out It's the golden rule of EVE and no less true here in Dust, also part of the EVE Universe: don't fly what you can't afford to lose. When you undock/call it in, it's already dead; treat it as such. If you manage to come back without losing it, you just got an extra, be hapoy about it. But the fact remains: you bring to the field what you need to win. The win is what really matters. If don't need it to win, don't bring it; if you can't afford to lose it, don't bring it. This isn't about KDR, it's about winning the war for the lowest price; we're mercenaries, we're paid to win the fight, and it's up to us to win it for a low enough cost that the pay results in profit. As it should be.

Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 437	Posted - 2013.05.23 19:24:00 - [21] - Quote Do not touch my Murder Taxi... Its balanced, its fun and its useful. Stop running out in the open, you should get your own taxi when out on the roadways.
Shady IceCream Truck Silent Stalkerz Hephaestus Forge Alliance 22	Posted - 2013.05.23 19:36:00 - [22] - Quote NERF THE AR'S
137H4RGIC SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 60	Posted - 2013.05.23 19:53:00 - [23] - Quote You must not get in very serious matches. When LAVs are moving at top speed and get in range of you, you're lucky if you can get one AV grenade to hit the vehicle as it can't track fast enough, let alone three. It is in my opinion that yes, LAVs need to be re-looked at. Being able to spend nothing and one-shot Proto-fit suits is a bit rediculous. As a heavy, one of the things I need to look out for is LAVs. On my assault toon, I don't need to worry because I can just dodge the LAV coming at me. Proto heavies, despite their grenades, are unable to effectively kill a speeding LAV. Additionally, I think that the resist and HP Bonus for the Militia LAV should be dropped as with my heavy, I could use my HMG to chew threw any LAV and not think a thing of it. Now, I'm only a slight threat with my bullet hose. Thus, nerf the Militia Variant.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 139	Posted - 2013.05.23 19:57:00 - [24] - Quote 137H4RGIC wrote: You must not get in very serious matches. When LAVs are moving at top speed and get in range of you, you're lucky if you can get one AV grenade to hit the vehicle as it can't track fast enough, let alone three. It is in my opinion that yes, LAVs need to be re-looked at. Being able to spend nothing and one-shot Proto-fit suits is a bit rediculous. As a heavy, one of the things I need to look out for is LAVs. On my assault toon, I don't need to worry because I can just dodge the LAV coming at me. Proto heavies, despite their grenades, are unable to effectively kill a speeding LAV. Additionally, I think that the resist and HP Bonus for the Militia LAV should be dropped as with my heavy, I could use my HMG to chew threw any LAV and not think a thing of it. Now, I'm only a slight threat with my bullet hose. Thus, nerf the Militia Variant. In other words, you need to find transport in the open when using you heavy (like calling in your free LAV), improve your SA (situational awareness), and just generally learn to apply the right tool to the right job. This is not Call of Halo, this is a tactical shooter with consequence, and if you choose a loadout unsuited to the situation and environment you chose to accept the consequences of that choice.
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 439	Posted - 2013.05.23 20:06:00 - [25] - Quote Geirskoegul wrote: In other words, you need to find transport in the open when using you heavy (like calling in your free LAV), improve your SA (situational awareness), and just generally learn to apply the right tool to the right job. This is not Call of Halo, this is a tactical shooter with consequence, and if you choose a loadout unsuited to the situation and environment you chose to accept the consequences of that choice. EDIT: **** SVER; Raven FTW Yea basically this, why aren't you waiting around for your own LAV to move from place to place? "Because they blow up to easily" "Because I don't want to wait" "Because thats silly" Well, sorry. This isn't 22000 BC where we all run around everywhere, no we drive places because walking sucks.
Polish Hammer Conspiratus Immortalis 443	Posted - 2013.05.23 20:13:00 - [26] - Quote Speaking on the topic of AV grenades specifically, no. I'd almost be okay with separating them into specific skills (Flux/Locus/AV), but removing them entirely? No. I think what we really need are some hard numbers to work with instead going off of round-abouts and conjecture. Then work from there.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 140	Posted - 2013.05.23 20:17:00 - [27] - Quote Polish Hammer wrote: Speaking on the topic of AV grenades specifically, no. I'd almost be okay with separating them into specific skills (Flux/Locus/AV), but removing them entirely? No. I think what we really need are some hard numbers to work with instead going off of round-abouts and conjecture. Then work from there. As a nearly 9-year EVE player, I'm all in favor of numbers, tables and graphs. CCP, granted we've got a lot of the less-sophisticated shooter players here too, but could we get some devblogs with graphs and numbers for Dust? It'd help us players differentiate between perception and vocal idiots whining, and what is actually happening, stats-wise, on the game.
Shady IceCream Truck Silent Stalkerz Hephaestus Forge Alliance 22	Posted - 2013.05.23 20:21:00 - [28] - Quote 137H4RGIC wrote: You must not get in very serious matches. When LAVs are moving at top speed and get in range of you, you're lucky if you can get one AV grenade to hit the vehicle as it can't track fast enough, let alone three. It is in my opinion that yes, LAVs need to be re-looked at. Being able to spend nothing and one-shot Proto-fit suits is a bit rediculous. As a heavy, one of the things I need to look out for is LAVs. On my assault toon, I don't need to worry because I can just dodge the LAV coming at me. Proto heavies, despite their grenades, are unable to effectively kill a speeding LAV. Additionally, I think that the resist and HP Bonus for the Militia LAV should be dropped as with my heavy, I could use my HMG to chew threw any LAV and not think a thing of it. Now, I'm only a slight threat with my bullet hose. Thus, nerf the Militia Variant. 3 avs ? my starter truck dies with 1... why you have to stretch the truth?
RedBleach LeSanglant Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 252	Posted - 2013.05.23 20:30:00 - [29] - Quote AV nades only affect Vehicles. AV weapons affect Vehicles, Installations, and sometimes infantry. They are specialized while the weapons are versatile. So, keep them as is. A separate skill tree would be acceptable.
Mary Sedillo XERCORE E X T E R M I N A T U S 100	Posted - 2013.05.23 20:39:00 - [30] - Quote Coleman Gray wrote: Free LAV's as I'm sure most people will now agree, the Veterans more than the new guys probably but the ability to get a free suit loadout as well as a free LAV is unfair to older players because now their being abused, I'm a tank driver and its annoying for me to watch people get killed despite the Proto their wearing by a car hitting them that cost the driver nothing when Proto fits are looking to be 200,00 isk+. AV Grenades I feel should be removed or nerfed to make full AV roles more Viable. At the moment People can skill up into grenades for Locus and Flux to carry with their AR weapons ect. However with AV grenades doing such high damage, Their proving a better choice than actual AV weapons. The Proto Type breach forge gun deals 2772 on a direct hit, require you to stand still while aiming, meaning a tank or LAV or Dropship can get to safety since you can't move to chase them and it takes 6 seconds to charge up a shot. The Breach Forge gun is meant to be the TRUE AV weapon, rivaling even tank railguns yet Proto packed AV grenades deal 4000 damage. I understand the arguement of having to get close to use them, but unless the tank isn't the fight, Grenades are always in range. Also, who here who uses Proto Grenades have thought it wasn't worth the risk to get that litte bit closer while in cover to the tank to deal 12,000 damage one your own to it in the time it takes a Breach Forge to charge up. From what I seen the main arguement for keeping AV grenades has been that people are abusing the free LAV's, By getting rid of free LAV's, if people want transport or to run people over they either have to spend points into vehicles themselves and pay isk or know someone who has done. Also with the removal of AV grenades, Swarm launcher, forge gun and plasma weapon users would become more needed. I am not a new player myself... but the LAV would be a viable counter for newer players to put the fear of crunchy buggy grill death into Prototype suits. I mean, with the amount of Tactical Prototype suits steamrolling newbs left and right, should the new players not have a toy that can inflict damage upon their enemy in a meaningful way?

Mary Sedillo XERCORE E X T E R M I N A T U S 100	Posted - 2013.05.23 20:41:00 - [31] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: Do not touch my Murder Taxi... Its balanced, its fun and its useful. Stop running out in the open, you should get your own taxi when out on the roadways. I lol at people when I murder taxi them in my standard buggies as they run out in the open. Silly people wanted to play in the streets... going to get crushed...
Rachoi HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 76	Posted - 2013.05.23 21:28:00 - [32] - Quote 137H4RGIC wrote: You must not get in very serious matches. When LAVs are moving at top speed and get in range of you, you're lucky if you can get one AV grenade to hit the vehicle as it can't track fast enough, let alone three. It is in my opinion that yes, LAVs need to be re-looked at. Being able to spend nothing and one-shot Proto-fit suits is a bit rediculous. As a heavy, one of the things I need to look out for is LAVs. On my assault toon, I don't need to worry because I can just dodge the LAV coming at me. Proto heavies, despite their grenades, are unable to effectively kill a speeding LAV. Additionally, I think that the resist and HP Bonus for the Militia LAV should be dropped as with my heavy, I could use my HMG to chew threw any LAV and not think a thing of it. Now, I'm only a slight threat with my bullet hose. Thus, nerf the Militia Variant. and i do hope you mean only the freebie Militia variants. honestly as much as i despise most STB, you have a point, the freebie ones should be paper, for the simple sake as they are of sub par manufacturing, only reason to actually see them as weak. the ones you skill into should still me durable and able to take a modest beating, and drive off, like a quick, drive in, drop off, and drive out and when you fire that hose of 30-40 calibur bullets, it should definately be felt by the car. no ifs, ands, or buts. that HMG is a man portable minigun for goodness sakes, not gonna be the most accurate, but it should definately make car drivers dodge away.
Luis rules 1st Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 2	Posted - 2013.05.23 21:32:00 - [33] - Quote I'm cool with no free LAV's But you lost me with no AV grenades Have you realized how close you have to be? If you get that close and have proto AV, you deserve to take that tank Assault forge can take you down as well without that proximity risk That's fare
Niccolo deLuce Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 2	Posted - 2013.05.23 21:59:00 - [34] - Quote I get so confused by these constant av/tank/lav threads every day. Have you guys never realized HOW RIDICULOUSLY EASY it is to hit a LAV with a grenade? It's called leading it, oh and it sits active on the ground for like 5 seconds. Throw the grenade.... wait for it... IN FRONT. Just like any moving target in the history of people throwing things. I can hit LAVs maybe 18 out of 20 throws. You can almost always hear them coming, and if you're in an open area and not looking around then you deserve to die to them. Also, nobody feels sorry for you tankers just because you lack common sense. Sorry bud, stop parking your tank next to the wall because you think it should be invincible at any and all ranges. Stop driving into the middle of complexes without good infantry support. There's a reason it's got a huge gun with a huge range. You also might want to learn how to fit your tank, since there are many out there that have no problems from grenades. I really like how your opening argument was basically a complaint that super-awesome-1337 proto/tar users can ever get killed by noobs, and that they need to have any possibility to present a threat to you nerfed, even though it's the simplest threat in the game to counter.
Encharrion L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 106	Posted - 2013.05.23 23:48:00 - [35] - Quote The problem with AV grenades is the lack of sacrifice to fit them. This means that mostly everyone has them. They have limited range, so clearly you can't let them get close. They can use cover to approach you without you seeing them until they are pitching grenades at you, so you need an open area so that you can see and shoot them before they get too close. Now you get torn apart by forge guns. You go in close using cover and use a support squad to deal with enemies. They didn't sacrifice anything for their AV capabilities so they can deal with your support squad. You take cover somewhat distant from the enemy, but now you have to use railguns because you're too far away. Want to use blasters? Too bad. Sure, you need quite a few AV grenades to kill a well fit tank. Let's say you need 8 grenades to take one out. One guy throwing three grenades just took away nearly half the tanks health. That one guy just forced the tank to retreat (because who knows if he has a nanohive or a buddy with him to throw more grenades) and take time to recover it's health, not to mention make it easy prey to forge guns and swarms while it breaks cover and retreats at half health. He did all this, without sacrificing his ability to fight other infantry in the slightest. Even if he dies, he loses almost nothing by trying. No wonder everyone rail snipes from the hills with their tanks.
CAELAN Andoril Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 22	Posted - 2013.05.24 15:52:00 - [36] - Quote Encharrion wrote: The problem with AV grenades is the lack of sacrifice to fit them. This means that mostly everyone has them. They have limited range, so clearly you can't let them get close. They can use cover to approach you without you seeing them until they are pitching grenades at you, so you need an open area so that you can see and shoot them before they get too close. Now you get torn apart by forge guns. You go in close using cover and use a support squad to deal with enemies. They didn't sacrifice anything for their AV capabilities so they can deal with your support squad. You take cover somewhat distant from the enemy, but now you have to use railguns because you're too far away. Want to use blasters? Too bad. Sure, you need quite a few AV grenades to kill a well fit tank. Let's say you need 8 grenades to take one out. One guy throwing three grenades just took away nearly half the tanks health. That one guy just forced the tank to retreat (because who knows if he has a nanohive or a buddy with him to throw more grenades) and take time to recover it's health, not to mention make it easy prey to forge guns and swarms while it breaks cover and retreats at half health. He did all this, without sacrificing his ability to fight other infantry in the slightest. Even if he dies, he loses almost nothing by trying. No wonder everyone rail snipes from the hills with their tanks. I somewhat disagree with your premise. There is a combat sacrifice in order to fit AV grenades: you can't use grenades on anything but vehicles. Now, before you go angrily disagreeing with me, hear me out. I have AV grenades, and I actually had them on my Assault suit for a while. But in the end I swapped them out for real grenades. Why? Because there far more times as an Assault suit where Locus grenades could have saved me, but instead I had AV grenades. That one, small, insignificant difference can kill you. Each grenade has it's own pro and con, and for each one you equip, you are sacrificing something in return. Want to be able to take out large groups of shield-tanked enemies? Flux nade and a shotty. Want a versatile, lethal grenade? Stick with Locus. Tired of getting hit by LAV's? Equip AV nades, but be careful, because that choice can get you killed.
Gruul Upgrayedd Dust-Bunny Suppliers 2	Posted - 2013.05.24 19:36:00 - [37] - Quote So the game would be more fair if proto suits have no weakness? Sorry but I'm not buying that bs. New players need some way to contribute . Plus free LAVs have like 2 hp, equip a damn militia swarm and quit bitchin


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