DUST Search - Request] Remove free LAV's and AV grenades

Rachoi wrote:

alten hilt wrote:

(...)

You're implying that Grenadiers don't need to risk anything in order to kill you, which is, IMHO, completely false.

Proto grenades have high fitting requirements, which means that the grenadier will have to sacrifice tank and DPS in order to fit them on MLT/STD suits. If the grenadier tries to reduce his ISK loss in this way, then he is a glass cannon and even a glancing blow from an HAV's guns or any supporting infantry is going to kill him. If the Grenadier goes with ADV/PRO suits he is risking a lot of ISK to basically charge up to the HAV.

Grenades can be thrown 10 - 30 meters, which is well inside an HAV's maximum damage range. The Granadier has to risk the HAV's guns, plus infantry guns to get very close in order to throw those grenades. If the tanker is fighting in a tank's ideal environment (i.e. open ground) then those prototype grenades are absolutely useless against you, even if you don't have infantry support, because you have the advantage: excellent visibility, limited cover, limited concealment, excellent manouverability. If an HAV dies in this environment, then I recommend more situational awareness, because the HAV has every advantage.

Now the scenario you describe is something else entirely. Close quarters urban combat is a tanks most vulnerable environment. Even with good infantry support, the tanker is at his weakest for exactly the reasons you stated: blind corners, lots of cover, limited visibility. limited manouverability . If the HAV tanker drives into a CQC environment, then it is his own fault when he is destroyed by infantry. The HAV eliminated all of his natural advantages and accepted all of the disadvantages of the situation.

It is frustrating to be blown up by such a small, insignificant weapon, but AV grenades have a limited role with various strengths and weaknesses; just like the various strengths and weaknesses that the HAV has. So I repeat, paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock.

Exactly true.

also, your readings on even Proto damage AV grenades is not entirely true, because i've seen Lai Dai thrown at a tank, it took close to eight. and the tank still got away. you must remember if you are rolling a tank into a close in area, to not go in without support. lets face it AV grenades are more of a tacked on back up if you get ambushed by a tank. and more often than not.... you brought in the tank in the first freaking place, so expecting not to get blown up is sheer idiocy. in the old intro vid, its even said YOU WILL DIE.... not a preception, it is a FACT. so even in your tank, expect to die, and do what you can not to, because be it SL, FG, Plasma Cannon, or AV grenades, some one will take your tank out


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Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 137	Posted - 2013.05.23 19:11:00 - [1] - Quote Rachoi wrote: alten hilt wrote: (...) You're implying that Grenadiers don't need to risk anything in order to kill you, which is, IMHO, completely false. Proto grenades have high fitting requirements, which means that the grenadier will have to sacrifice tank and DPS in order to fit them on MLT/STD suits. If the grenadier tries to reduce his ISK loss in this way, then he is a glass cannon and even a glancing blow from an HAV's guns or any supporting infantry is going to kill him. If the Grenadier goes with ADV/PRO suits he is risking a lot of ISK to basically charge up to the HAV. Grenades can be thrown 10 - 30 meters, which is well inside an HAV's maximum damage range. The Granadier has to risk the HAV's guns, plus infantry guns to get very close in order to throw those grenades. If the tanker is fighting in a tank's ideal environment (i.e. open ground) then those prototype grenades are absolutely useless against you, even if you don't have infantry support, because you have the advantage: excellent visibility, limited cover, limited concealment, excellent manouverability. If an HAV dies in this environment, then I recommend more situational awareness, because the HAV has every advantage. Now the scenario you describe is something else entirely. Close quarters urban combat is a tanks most vulnerable environment. Even with good infantry support, the tanker is at his weakest for exactly the reasons you stated: blind corners, lots of cover, limited visibility. limited manouverability . If the HAV tanker drives into a CQC environment, then it is his own fault when he is destroyed by infantry. The HAV eliminated all of his natural advantages and accepted all of the disadvantages of the situation. It is frustrating to be blown up by such a small, insignificant weapon, but AV grenades have a limited role with various strengths and weaknesses; just like the various strengths and weaknesses that the HAV has. So I repeat, paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock. Exactly true. also, your readings on even Proto damage AV grenades is not entirely true, because i've seen Lai Dai thrown at a tank, it took close to eight. and the tank still got away. you must remember if you are rolling a tank into a close in area, to not go in without support. lets face it AV grenades are more of a tacked on back up if you get ambushed by a tank. and more often than not.... you brought in the tank in the first freaking place, so expecting not to get blown up is sheer idiocy. in the old intro vid, its even said YOU WILL DIE.... not a preception, it is a FACT. so even in your tank, expect to die, and do what you can not to, because be it SL, FG, Plasma Cannon, or AV grenades, some one will take your tank out It's the golden rule of EVE and no less true here in Dust, also part of the EVE Universe: don't fly what you can't afford to lose. When you undock/call it in, it's already dead; treat it as such. If you manage to come back without losing it, you just got an extra, be hapoy about it. But the fact remains: you bring to the field what you need to win. The win is what really matters. If don't need it to win, don't bring it; if you can't afford to lose it, don't bring it. This isn't about KDR, it's about winning the war for the lowest price; we're mercenaries, we're paid to win the fight, and it's up to us to win it for a low enough cost that the pay results in profit. As it should be.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 139	Posted - 2013.05.23 19:57:00 - [2] - Quote 137H4RGIC wrote: You must not get in very serious matches. When LAVs are moving at top speed and get in range of you, you're lucky if you can get one AV grenade to hit the vehicle as it can't track fast enough, let alone three. It is in my opinion that yes, LAVs need to be re-looked at. Being able to spend nothing and one-shot Proto-fit suits is a bit rediculous. As a heavy, one of the things I need to look out for is LAVs. On my assault toon, I don't need to worry because I can just dodge the LAV coming at me. Proto heavies, despite their grenades, are unable to effectively kill a speeding LAV. Additionally, I think that the resist and HP Bonus for the Militia LAV should be dropped as with my heavy, I could use my HMG to chew threw any LAV and not think a thing of it. Now, I'm only a slight threat with my bullet hose. Thus, nerf the Militia Variant. In other words, you need to find transport in the open when using you heavy (like calling in your free LAV), improve your SA (situational awareness), and just generally learn to apply the right tool to the right job. This is not Call of Halo, this is a tactical shooter with consequence, and if you choose a loadout unsuited to the situation and environment you chose to accept the consequences of that choice.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 140	Posted - 2013.05.23 20:17:00 - [3] - Quote Polish Hammer wrote: Speaking on the topic of AV grenades specifically, no. I'd almost be okay with separating them into specific skills (Flux/Locus/AV), but removing them entirely? No. I think what we really need are some hard numbers to work with instead going off of round-abouts and conjecture. Then work from there. As a nearly 9-year EVE player, I'm all in favor of numbers, tables and graphs. CCP, granted we've got a lot of the less-sophisticated shooter players here too, but could we get some devblogs with graphs and numbers for Dust? It'd help us players differentiate between perception and vocal idiots whining, and what is actually happening, stats-wise, on the game.