DUST Search - Request] Remove free LAV's and AV grenades

Coleman Gray wrote:

Rachoi wrote:

AV grenades are rather high risk, low pay out if you look at it. proper tanks dont fear them, and they are only useful as supporting the damage done by Swarms, and Forge guns.

as for the MLT LAV..... drop it's health, that's about all i can say about it, because of the murder taxi driving around

side note.... AV grenades are useful for blowing up free LAVs

average proto it for suits is 200,000 isk round about. A tank fitting your looking at 1 mill isk area. Lai Dai Packed grenades cost 23,610 and deal 4k damage each. so on average it takes 2 grenades to kill a tank. Unless you heavily use damage reduction which if you go all out you may manage to get a window of 50% dmg reduction. so their only dealing 2k damage instead, so 6k damage per person against a fully activated tank. So only ever at most takes two people to carry them to kill a tank. You can throw them over cover ect so the tank can't even shoot you. and by the time you notice the first one hitting you, the second one less than a second after kills you. It's low risk High reward I'll think you'll find. lets put aside WP ect earned from it and lets think about the effort and isk put in. A tanker will never get profit from a match he's lost his tank in,it takes like 3 games on average to make up for a tank loss. You lose a dropsuit fitting, your still in profit. Swarm launchers and Forge gunners have to risk being shot at to aim, Grenadiers can run behind a box and toss a grenade from safety and deal more damage.


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alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 26	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:43:00 - [1] - Quote I imagine that it has something to do with the paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock mentality of Dust. While it sucks losing an expensive loadout, there needs to be a legitimate counter to that playstyle, other than another expensive loadout of the same type. IMHO, every playstyle should have at least two other playstyles it is stong against, and two that it is weak against. And someone with prototype AV grenades has invested a lot of SP, just like anyone else fielding a prototype weapon system. Grenades have a weakness; you have to get really close to use them. Unlike forge guns and swarm launchers, which allow you to attack at range. If you play in prototype gear, then know that there are counters to your playstyle, and that there are counters to the counters. Have an AV loadout and support your squad. I'm not an HAV pilot, but, Tanks have always been weak when not supported by infantry. Modern anti-tank infantry have numerous man portable systems that can disable or destroy lone tanks. So, recognize that you are weak without infantry support and adapt. paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock! It is all part of the balance.
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 26	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:52:00 - [2] - Quote Xender17 wrote: alten hilt wrote: I imagine that it has something to do with the paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock mentality of Dust. While it sucks losing an expensive loadout, there needs to be a legitimate counter to that playstyle, other than another expensive loadout of the same type. IMHO, every playstyle should have at least two other playstyles it is stong against, and two that it is weak against. And someone with prototype AV grenades has invested a lot of SP, just like anyone else fielding a prototype weapon system. Grenades have a weakness; you have to get really close to use them. Unlike forge guns and swarm launchers, which allow you to attack at range. If you play in prototype gear, then know that there are counters to your playstyle, and that there are counters to the counters. Have an AV loadout and support your squad. I'm not an HAV pilot, but, Tanks have always been weak when not supported by infantry. Modern anti-tank infantry have numerous man portable systems that can disable or destroy lone tanks. So, recognize that you are weak without infantry support and adapt. paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock! It is all part of the balance. I'm pretty positive if we developed shields that would completely change. Even against Anti-shield equipment. And once someone developed shields, someone else would develop a counter to the shield. It's the cycle of warfare. One nation develops a better weapon, another develops armor to counter that weaopn. And so on, and so on.
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 26	Posted - 2013.05.23 16:58:00 - [3] - Quote CAELAN Andoril wrote: I'd prefer AV grenades requiring higher skills than it does now. Not a separate skill or anything, but for instance make STD AV grenades require LVL 3 Grenadier rather than LVL 1. That way they kind of have to specialise in order to get them. They'll be easier to get than other AV options, but not too easily available. Also, the Hacked variant or whichever one that doesn't require skills: get rid of it. That one's a load of crap and I refuse to use it on principle. Why requre grenades to have a different skill progression? It is a viable weapon, just like your AR, Forge, SMG, or pistol. If anything it should have speciallization skills just like all the other weapons. Same with explosives.
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 26	Posted - 2013.05.23 17:39:00 - [4] - Quote Coleman Gray wrote: alten hilt wrote: I imagine that it has something to do with the paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock mentality of Dust. While it sucks losing an expensive loadout, there needs to be a legitimate counter to that playstyle, other than another expensive loadout of the same type. IMHO, every playstyle should have at least two other playstyles it is stong against, and two that it is weak against. And someone with prototype AV grenades has invested a lot of SP, just like anyone else fielding a prototype weapon system. Grenades have a weakness; you have to get really close to use them. Unlike forge guns and swarm launchers, which allow you to attack at range. If you play in prototype gear, then know that there are counters to your playstyle, and that there are counters to the counters. Have an AV loadout and support your squad. I'm not an HAV pilot, but, Tanks have always been weak when not supported by infantry. Modern anti-tank infantry have numerous man portable systems that can disable or destroy lone tanks. So, recognize that you are weak without infantry support and adapt. paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock! It is all part of the balance. The problem is Proto AV grenades are simply a better choice for AV than anything else, they do more damage, are more accurate and much cheaper and do not take up a weapon slot. But even other AV weapon systems benefit from AV grenades because EVERYONE has a grenade slot. So when that LAV or HAV gets close to the anti-vehicle soldier, they can switch to the grenade and still be effective. The AV grenadier will still have to get close to use grenades. And if that LAV/HAV is supported by infantry.gunners, that granadier is going to have a hard time getting close. The only people who don't benefit much from the grenade slot are the tankers, but you also don't benefit from your weapon slot, or your secondary slot, or any of your dropsuit module slots. Maybe when you get a pilot dropsuit there will be modules that reduce the effectiveness of AV weapons.
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 26	Posted - 2013.05.23 18:26:00 - [5] - Quote Coleman Gray wrote: Rachoi wrote: AV grenades are rather high risk, low pay out if you look at it. proper tanks dont fear them, and they are only useful as supporting the damage done by Swarms, and Forge guns. as for the MLT LAV..... drop it's health, that's about all i can say about it, because of the murder taxi driving around side note.... AV grenades are useful for blowing up free LAVs average proto it for suits is 200,000 isk round about. A tank fitting your looking at 1 mill isk area. Lai Dai Packed grenades cost 23,610 and deal 4k damage each. so on average it takes 2 grenades to kill a tank. Unless you heavily use damage reduction which if you go all out you may manage to get a window of 50% dmg reduction. so their only dealing 2k damage instead, so 6k damage per person against a fully activated tank. So only ever at most takes two people to carry them to kill a tank. You can throw them over cover ect so the tank can't even shoot you. and by the time you notice the first one hitting you, the second one less than a second after kills you. It's low risk High reward I'll think you'll find. lets put aside WP ect earned from it and lets think about the effort and isk put in. A tanker will never get profit from a match he's lost his tank in,it takes like 3 games on average to make up for a tank loss. You lose a dropsuit fitting, your still in profit. Swarm launchers and Forge gunners have to risk being shot at to aim, Grenadiers can run behind a box and toss a grenade from safety and deal more damage. You're implying that Grenadiers don't need to risk anything in order to kill you, which is, IMHO, completely false. Proto grenades have high fitting requirements, which means that the grenadier will have to sacrifice tank and DPS in order to fit them on MLT/STD suits. If the grenadier tries to reduce his ISK loss in this way, then he is a glass cannon and even a glancing blow from an HAV's guns or any supporting infantry is going to kill him. If the Grenadier goes with ADV/PRO suits he is risking a lot of ISK to basically charge up to the HAV. Grenades can be thrown 10 - 30 meters, which is well inside an HAV's maximum damage range. The Granadier has to risk the HAV's guns, plus infantry guns to get very close in order to throw those grenades. If the tanker is fighting in a tank's ideal environment (i.e. open ground) then those prototype grenades are absolutely useless against you, even if you don't have infantry support, because you have the advantage: excellent visibility, limited cover, limited concealment, excellent manouverability. If an HAV dies in this environment, then I recommend more situational awareness, because the HAV has every advantage. Now the scenario you describe is something else entirely. Close quarters urban combat is a tanks most vulnerable environment. Even with good infantry support, the tanker is at his weakest for exactly the reasons you stated: blind corners, lots of cover, limited visibility. limited manouverability . If the HAV tanker drives into a CQC environment, then it is his own fault when he is destroyed by infantry. The HAV eliminated all of his natural advantages and accepted all of the disadvantages of the situation. It is frustrating to be blown up by such a small, insignificant weapon, but AV grenades have a limited role with various strengths and weaknesses; just like the various strengths and weaknesses that the HAV has. So I repeat, paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock.