So you're saying the weapon based on short-range Blaster tech was always meant to be more effective at mid-long range encounters than the weapon based around mid-long range Pulse Laser tech?

Seems legit.

So it seems, the SR has more dispersion and lower range than the AR. So it's that or nerf AR range, which would make lots of people mad.

Just need to nerf tac ar

Prototype Assault Scram Rifle range : 1-30M

Militia Assault Rifle Range: 1-39M

Nuff said.

Prototype Assault Scram Rifle range : 1-30M

Militia Assault Rifle Range: 1-39M

Nuff said.

All weapons of each type have the same range profile. Comparing the two ends of the scale like it means anything is stupid.

And that's the OPTIMAL range for each, not the maximum. Scrambler can actually hit from further away than the regular ARs, even Standard Scrambler vs. Proto AR.

Guys I thought about range increasing, but then you see that the dispersion is actually higher than the AR. Increasing range would be useless if dispersion is not decreased, which means double work for the devs.

For those that say the SR is fine, please look at the numbers of the above thread. There's no reason at all to choose SR over AR.

WTF. The scrambler rifle is the most balanced gun in the game. Dont you dare mess with it and destroy what is great.

So you're saying the weapon based on short-range Blaster tech was always meant to be more effective at mid-long range encounters than the weapon based around mid-long range Pulse Laser tech?

Seems legit.

The SCR is just fine. I prefer the assault variant and will soon have the Carthum variant. The CRD-09 already owns enemy players, so the Carthum will be on par with a tentacled **** monster.

In short, the SCR is fine and does not need a buff.

If you read the description, the Scrambler Rifle and Pistol are actually a hybrid of a plasma and laser weapon.

Save your SP people, AR is still the best gun around.

Assault Rifles are the best weapon in Dust 514? Someone should notify the player-base immediately.

Getting back on topic maybe CCP should offer variants and see how the reaction is. The breach and assault variants for some weapons have drastically altered their use from the standard models.

They are already informed, everyone's using the TAR.

What the SCR lacks in dps it makes up for with high alpha damage. You can one-shot people with ease if you fit a SCR right.

just hard cap the ROF on the TacAR until we get a legit caldari battle rifle to replace it. The scrambler's fine.

I think they should swap the optimals of both weapons. Leading to this numbers:

GEK-38 Assault Rifle
Max Range: 68m
Optimal Range: 1 - 29m

CRD-9 Assault Scrambler Rifle
Max Range: 73m
Optimal Range: 1 - 40m

As far as I know the Gallante Weapons should be more short ranged high ROF high DPS weapons therefore either lower the SR damage slightly or buff the AR damage slightly to seperate both weapons more in combination of the optimals range change (the same DPS with higher Range for any of the two weapons would result in another imbalance)

As I said before I believe the range was meant to be low, the gun doesn't have any reducing dispersion skill, nor recoil, etc. like the AR. If they increase range they'll have to reduce dispersion as well, no point in increasing range when the gun is not accurate.

I think they should swap the optimals of both weapons. Leading to this numbers:

GEK-38 Assault Rifle
Max Range: 68m
Optimal Range: 1 - 29m

CRD-9 Assault Scrambler Rifle
Max Range: 73m
Optimal Range: 1 - 40m

As far as I know the Gallante Weapons should be more short ranged high ROF high DPS weapons therefore either lower the SR damage slightly or buff the AR damage slightly to seperate both weapons more in combination of the optimals range change (the same DPS with higher Range for any of the two weapons would result in another imbalance)

Since no one is using this weapon, and the small number of guys using it saying it's fine, the chances that CCP buffs the SR are quite low. Either way, I'm bumping this thread so it gets their attention, I really want to know the future of this weapon, because if it's still underpowered by respec, I might just join the large population of duvolle users.

Since you seem to not have read the above thread:

#1Posted: 2013.05.14 15:36 | Report | Edited by: RECON BY FIRE
Why is the range worse than an AR?

GEK-38 Assault Rifle
Max Range: 68m
Optimal Range: 1 - 40m

CRD-9 Assault Scrambler Rifle
Max Range: 73m
Optimal Range: 1 - 29m


GLU-5 Tactical Assault Rifle
Max Range: 95m
Optimal Range: 1 - 62m

CRW-04 Scrambler Rifle
Max Range: 83m
Optimal Range: 1 - 45m


Save your SP people, AR is still the best gun around.


Edit:


Damage Comparison Between AR and SR


Overall DPS

Duvolle AR: 467.5
Carthum AS: 465.9

DPS vs Shields

Duvolle AR: 514.3
Carthum AS: 559.1

DPS vs Armor

Duvolle AR: 420.8
Carthum AS: 372.7


I say you save the SP, the Carthum ain't no monster dude. I use one. ;)

I'm going to bump this for good measure. This is an important topic that needs attention. SR are not viable.

Most guns are not viable with duvolles and TAC around in their current form.


Nerf hammer AR. That is all. ( By nerf I mean Balance )

Are not the Scrambler rifle and Lazer rifle the equivalent of pulse and beam weapons in eve, one meant for close to medium engagements the other for longer ranges,each with its own distinct strengths and weaknesses ?

"Pulse lasers have better range than blasters, hybrid weapon from the same class, but do considerably less damage. Anyway, pulse lasers are in favor among skilled pilots because they provide good damage/range ratio. By contrast with beam turrets, pulses fire rapidly several times in a cycle. "

Actually, if the Amarr have great laser cooling technology for ships, wouldn't it be even better for guns? It's harder to get rid of heat in space than in an atmosphere.

Correct. Cooling in space would be restricted to radiation. On the surface you could use convection and conduction as well, both of which would tend to transfer heat more quickly.

So you're saying the weapon based on short-range Blaster tech was always meant to be more effective at mid-long range encounters than the weapon based around mid-long range Pulse Laser tech?

Seems legit.

So much this.

I've played Gallente so I'm familiar with blasters; not so much Amarr, but I have heard when you get range, you can melt people with your lasers.

Anyways, I believe the Gallente Assault Rifle is similar to Blaster tech in EVE, while the Scrambler Rifle is similar to the Laser tech on Amarr ships in EVE (though admittedly I don't know if long range or short).

In any case isn't the optimals and range on lasers greater than the blasters?

EDIT: Never mind. Found this. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=834118#post834118

We don't want this game to turn into SR 514

I appreciate the credit to my thread, but I cant agree this is the fix the Scrambler needs. Damage is fine, as can be seen in my thread, its fairly balanced all around. The range is what needs fixing, as well as the ROF of the TAC AR.

Signed. This man knows his stuff and is fairly objective plus being eloquent and polite. The only flaw I can find with him or his reasoning is his alliance. You should come join us!

The passive skill not helping the assault variant is another issue. A Heat build-up reduction skill would make more sense.

Pulse lasers ARE the shorter range range option between pulse & beam for Amarr in EVE, but they aren't CQC exactly.

Pulse Lasers are described as "Medium" range turrets, blasters are "Short" range turrets.

What does that mean in practical terms? Well, if we just look something like the Medium-sized turrets sets for both, Pulse lasers have an optimum range of about 12,000 meters, while Blasters have a range of about 3,000 meters. So, Pulse Lasers outrange blasters by about 4 to 1 (in EVE).

Anyway, better, head-reducing passive skill and a range bump would be great.

I get the feeling something like the TAC AR was more meant to be in the Rail Rifle set.

This makes sense. CCP why you don't do this?

A small zoom on the SR would make a difference but I caution you not to ask for a reduction in heat build up. The heat build up is the only thing that balances this weapon vs the TAC AR. You can charge it up for more damage and this in itself is a very big reason to look at it as a superior weapon to the TAC AR. The superior rate of fire when compared to the TAC AR is also something that I see as a problem on a rifle with NO RECOIL. There is no adjustment needed when firing off a volley of shots at and individual, there is only a need to be concerned with heat buildup, which when managed correctly will never leave you waving your gun in the air to cool down. If a TAC AR user fires 10 rounds at a person, even with maxed out skills, they still need to adjust where their shots are going each time if they wish to hit the person. Not so with a scrambler rifle, you need only to keep an eye on the heat of the weapon while you keep your aim steady.

+1 For a heat build reducing passive and sensible range.

What's needed, basically.

So I just found out that the SR is super accurate, at least at mid range. This is one of the reasons I'm having so much trouble using it for CQC. The gun almost never hits when hip firing because of the low dispersion. So why make a very accurate gun with only 30m optimal? The same as an HMG!!!! The gun should have 60m optimal and 100m for the semi automatic one. I'll edit the OP.

It should be comparable to EVE stats, where pulse lasers have a significant range advantage over plasma weapons. The heat, fire-rate, uneven dmg percentile (shields vs. armor), and large power draw are where the differences should be.

I couldn't care less about those numbers. As someone who has been using it a lot, it's pretty good. Pretty effective. No reason to use the AR, for me. I do pretty well in matches, too. Haven't really used the AR since the LR came out.

There is no reason to buff the Scrambler. The AR needs to be nerfed a little to bring it in line with everything else.

I wonder if they would consider making the round bigger? One difference I see between the AR and SR is that the dispersal at close range helps the ar users hit the moving target. So, oddly the accurate sr suffers in cqc. Also, I can't count the times I hard a charged head shot lined up and it looks like it should hit, but no it goes next to his head. Added to this is the aiming controls not being smooth enough to account for such a small difference in space. Even adjusting sensitivity I cannot account for it well.

For illustration purposes, here's two roughly equivalent specimens from blasters and pulse lasers. They're both MEDIUM and META lvl 5.


Heavy Pulse Laser II 12,000m 4000m 5.25s 3.6x 35tf 231MW 0.08125

---

Heavy Blaster II 3,000m 4,000m 4.5s 3.375x 33tf 158MW 0.11 rad/s

---

The stats you can see are, in order: Optimal Range, Accuracy Fall-off, Rate of fire, damage modifier, CPU, PG, and tracking speed.

A pulse laser has 4x the range as a blaster in this instance, but about the same accuracy fall-off. You can also see a pulse laser uses more CPU and much more PG.

i dont think giving the SR enough range to go mid is a good idea for one the LR is ment to take over there it IS still viable

Yes but the SR is a pulse laser and the LR isa beam

Right....

I'd say comparably, that a Pulse Laser Weapon (Scrambler) should definitely be longer range than a blaster (the Gallente plasma blaster). A laser should be longer range than either of them (laser rifle - beam), the Sniper rifle is a rail rifle and should be longer range than that.

A comparison of Beam and Railgun ranges is relatively much closer than pulse and blaster ranges though.

Pulse lasers outrange blasters by 4 to 1. This is a HUGE difference, and isn't even remotely represented well in-game.

A medium turret of Beam and Railgun at meta 5 would compare at ranges more like 24km to 29km. The laser has about 82% of the range of the railgun. If the laser rifle and sniper rifle are the current representatives of each in Dust, then it's another super-lopsided comparison where the hybrid weapon has been given a ridiculous edge on something that it's actually very similar to.

In both cases they've screwed up the lore of their own universe.

Or the you could 'tweak' (read smash to a million billion pieces) the TAR with the nerf hammer.

The SR is balanced it is a miniscule distance change and you have the advantage of the charge shot, i hit so many people with that then double tap 2more times really quick and they go down. If they have the range i shift my spot in cover or move.

There's a few different points here.

The Scrambler is a pulse laser, it's supposed to outrange blasters (in EVE, pulse outrange blasters by 4 to 1). Currently, the opposite is true, so a Scrambler user can be taken down by a blaster user at a range where they can't effectively counter.

The scrambler is effectively less accurate than a blaster as well, for a combination of reasons. Even without the sharpshooter skill, the TAR is going to get tighter groups than the scrambler, and is much more accurate when hip-firing.

Not only is the scrambler outclassed on shear numbers (range, etc.), it has a drawback to contend with - overheating. Besides rendering you unable to attack, switch weapons, or do anything else - it damages you. The AR takes a sizable jump in preference with that alone.

The Scrambler passive skill only functions on the semi-auto variant, the assault variant gets nothing out of it. The passive isn't useful to begin with of course (charge time reduction), however - it makes the Scrambler Rifle the only weapon in the game to have a passive that doesn't benefit a variant at all. A heat build-up reducing passive would be more sensible.

The charge shot will quickly overheat a weapon, and will be hard to follow-up after the first shot. The TAR wouldn't have this problem of course - without charging at all - they can put very high damage shots on a target in rapid succession.

Scramblers also require more tanks in Light Weapon Op to use than AR, which is ultimately the superior weapon.


So, basically - there's many reasons one might think the Scrambler has issues. Especially if you have any knowledge of EVE lore.

I'd say fixing the passive problem is a big one. Superior range to blasters is another.

There's some incoming changes, or so they say. They're going to increase hipfire dispersion and lower clip-size on the TAR, but nothing else. I think it'll probably still be "better" than the Scrambler at that point, but I suppose if it's clear there's still balance issues after that - they may change things again? We just can't expect the changes to happen quickly.

my only issue with the scrambler rifle is how quickly it overheats. I think MAYBE if its going to overheat, dont make it use a clip. because then on top of overheating you have to reload. other than that im good with it as is.

I think overheating is ok, are you using the assault Amarr dropsuit? It's a weapon that has to be used with that suit because it'll suck with the others. Also it's bad for CQC. It really needs the range buff.

I'd heard there'd been issues with the Amarr Assault dropsuit. Is the heat reduction effective?

I'd say so.