i agree, but there is no such thing as a FPS without K-D ratio statistics.

Of course a player that is always on the front-line will have a worst K- ratio than a Tanker or a sniper, but thats just the way it is.

i agree, but there is no such thing as a FPS without K-D ratio statistics.

Of course a player that is always on the front-line will have a worst K- ratio than a Tanker or a sniper, but thats just the way it is.

Which is exactly why it's pointless it needs phasing out or hidden away. I don't really care how many times I or anyone else killed someone, nor do I care how many times they or I died. All I care about is seeing "Victory" at the end of the game and if it costs me 30 deaths and 1 kill to see it, then so be.[/b]

But killing and surviving helps get that "victory", dying a lot makes things more difficult. You have to look at things in context. Yes, a sniper sitting back not doing much doesn't mean anything in terms of KDR, but for a frontline soldier there is nothing more important than KDR.

KDR is actually a relatively new addition the the FPS genre. As recently as Halo 3, KDR wasn't tracked, even on Bungie's site. MAG didn't track KDR in the early days of the game, the CoD kids pushed for it, and Zipper eventually added it (to the detriment of the game I might add). So it isn't too far fetched for me to imagine a game without it. We just need to teach the new DUST players that KDR doesn't have to be the end all be all stat, when defining a player's skill.

But if we still won, if we still heard EVA announce "Victory!" does anything else really matter? In a corp game, where everything is on the line and reimburment for lost suits from your alliance is the norm, K\D won't mean a thing. And it certainly wouldn't mean anything to a recruiter who could see a low K\D but a HUGE Team Score.

If you don't have people who are good at killing and surviving (good/high KDR), then your team is going to get pushed back and not be competitive in a firefight, therefore the WP you get will be meaningless and you will lose the battle.

You're not going to get a victory based on being good at getting WP alone. You need people to kill in order to defend points, capture points, hold the frontline, push back the enemy, etc.

You need a balance. This is why there is no all important stat. You need to look at a lot of different ones.

Oh of course, i'm not saying WP alone will win a game, but let me present to you a scenario:

You are a recruiter for your corp. You have three applications on your desk but only one space available in your upcoming corp game, for whatever reason.

Player X has an incredibly high K\D - 5.0 or higher, however his win\loss is less than 0.5 and his WP-PerMin is abysmal.
Player Y has average K\D, 1.5 say, an average win\loss but a high WP-PerMin.
Player Z has a terrible K\D, an average Win\Loss but an incredibly high WP-PM.

Do do you recruit? Player X is right off the table. He's unlikely to follow orders, unlikely to put the team first and unlikely to do anything dangerous because he clearly cares too much about an arbitrary stat. Player Y: Good team player but likely does not follow orders or does not think ahead. Farms points from repairing and rearming with no intention of actually supporting beyond soaking up points. For me it's clearly player Z. He plays more for a team, will likely listen to orders, places others above his own needs and will be reliable in making sure your guys stay stocked and repaired. I can that from those stats alone.

I hope that makes sense and wasn't too long winded.

TL:DR - We need more stats. Especially a WPPM :D

...but it is still a good measurement of one's basic killing and survival skills

Tell me please, how is KDR a good measurement in any way? It is an obtuse stat which merely declares that the player has, over time, managed to get more kills than deaths. It is absurdly easy to manipulate, and it also drives many players to cheat/hack/boost when possible. War Points Per Minute would be the most declarative stat when looking for an accurate summation of a player's skill at the game. Simply state your favored role, state your WPPM, and anyone with half a brain would be able to quickly judge your skill, at your chosen role.

I gurantee everyone who agrees to this has a bad K/D

Pretty sure I saw you and your ilk quit out of a game earlier when you were getting crushed. Pretty sure. Certain infact.

Gotta protect that K\D, huh ;) What you did, good sir, is exactly the problem we're talking about.

.....Anyway, I think I've detailed pretty well over the course of this thread why removing KDR (which is the topic if the thread) is not a good idea. I don't really feel like retyping everything, so if you haven't already I'd suggest reading all my posts in this thread. Just because it isn't important to you doesn't mean it has no value as a statistic.

Let me be clear about one thing though. There is no single stat which can fully describe how good of a player someone is. Everything is about context. There are many situations in which KDR is meaningless, but it does tell you something about a player. It tells you how good some is a beating the other team in a direct firefight, why is it a good idea to remove that?

Completely agree. K\D is a stat that shows me absolutely nothing.

I've let my K\D go to **** in games because i've been determined to set up a Spawn Beacon that then went on to win us the game. I've hung back and protected that same beacon with a shotgun and lingered around it meaning I only get 2-3 kills at most... I've thrown myself at tanks, hurling AV grenades knowing i'm going to fu*k it up enough for the guy behind me to finish it off.

I'm an immortal soldier with an unlimited reserve of clones. I have millions of ISK to fund my own personal armory... why do I care if I die, if I wake up again 5 seconds later with another suit and gun?

Take out K\D and replace it with Points Per Min, just like BF3. BF3 players scoff if you mention your KD to them, because they don't care. K\D means NOTHING. The _only_ thing that matters is how much you support your team.

Immortal space-faring demi-gods care little for how many times they died. Only how many times they won.

between snipers and tankers,etc... maybe they should add the weapon/vehicle they get 50% + of their kills...
This plus a WP per minute/game would determine the overall effectiveness of a player.

this way you know a man with 3 K-D SMG and 2000 WP per game is way better for your clan than the Sniper with 14 K-D and 900WPs .... (unless you ARE looking for a sniper for example...)

If Skirmish wasn't there, maybe I'd agree with keeping K/D, but considering how ANYONE can so effortlessly just, say, snipe a few people, then hide away for the rest of the match in an area the enemy can't reach (something I've unfortunately seen far too often.), K/D seems like something pointless to track.

Not to mention that unlike in many shooters, kills are not the only/ main thing to do in Dust, what happens to people that focus on Hacking, Healing, Spawning, Supplying, Piloting, Anti-Vehicle/ Installations, and now also Scanning?

People who focus on most of those things are as useful as the players that focus on fighting, and they don't even have to kill to ensure a victory for their team.
(Tho that doesn't mean they can't kill of course, just that its not their main focus.)

However War Points Per Minute also seems like a bad idea, considering that different playstyles also mean different amounts of WP gain at different rates.
A (useful) Sniper, a Logi, and an Assault for example, are all going to have extremely varied WPPM and will not provide an accurate reflection of the player's abilities either, not to mention that, as some have said before, WPPM could also be manipulated somewhat easily.


I was thinking on some other recommendations that could do instead, but honestly the ones I could think of were just as manipulable.

I don't know, I just know that neither K/D or WPPM are really useful in a game such as Dust, tho I'm sure there's something out there that is.

Why would it be WP//per minute? where u get this per minute stuff? PER GAME

Can we quit tracking this stat? PLEASE, consider replacing KDR with War Points per minute (WPPM or WP/M or simply WPM).

Just make KDR statistics private. It is not the KDR that makes people leaving teamplay for higher stats, it's public leaderboards

...Corporations idealy want a Merc who kills more than he dies, destroys more enemy gear than he loses, accomplishes a lot of objectives between deaths and does so rapidly, and consistently is a top contributer to mission objectives. Only governments don't care about efficiency.

KDR is actually a harmful statistic in a team based game like Dust. It should be removed or replaced with ISK destroyed vs ISK lost.

I think it should be up to the player if he/she want's their KDR shown.

We could all just ignore it.

Problem solved.

Just make KDR statistics private. It is not the KDR that makes people leaving teamplay for higher stats, it's public leaderboards

Completely agree. K\D is a stat that shows me absolutely nothing.

I've let my K\D go to **** in games because i've been determined to set up a Spawn Beacon that then went on to win us the game. I've hung back and protected that same beacon with a shotgun and lingered around it meaning I only get 2-3 kills at most... I've thrown myself at tanks, hurling AV grenades knowing i'm going to fu*k it up enough for the guy behind me to finish it off.

I'm an immortal soldier with an unlimited reserve of clones. I have millions of ISK to fund my own personal armory... why do I care if I die, if I wake up again 5 seconds later with another suit and gun?

Take out K\D and replace it with Points Per Min, just like BF3. BF3 players scoff if you mention your KD to them, because they don't care. K\D means NOTHING. The _only_ thing that matters is how much you support your team.

Immortal space-faring demi-gods care little for how many times they died. Only how many times they won.

Pretty sure that BF3 players are quite obsessed with their KD ratios.

2. The degree of their usefulness (i.e. averaging 7 kills per death indicates a play style much more effective than that of someone with 1 kill per 2 deaths)