DUST Search - CCP, please consider removing KDR as a statistic.

Vallud Eadesso wrote:

Oh of course, i'm not saying WP alone will win a game, but let me present to you a scenario:

You are a recruiter for your corp. You have three applications on your desk but only one space available in your upcoming corp game, for whatever reason.

Player X has an incredibly high K\D - 5.0 or higher, however his win\loss is less than 0.5 and his WP-PerMin is abysmal.
Player Y has average K\D, 1.5 say, an average win\loss but a high WP-PerMin.
Player Z has a terrible K\D, an average Win\Loss but an incredibly high WP-PM.

Do do you recruit? Player X is right off the table. He's unlikely to follow orders, unlikely to put the team first and unlikely to do anything dangerous because he clearly cares too much about an arbitrary stat. Player Y: Good team player but likely does not follow orders or does not think ahead. Farms points from repairing and rearming with no intention of actually supporting beyond soaking up points. For me it's clearly player Z. He plays more for a team, will likely listen to orders, places others above his own needs and will be reliable in making sure your guys stay stocked and repaired. I can that from those stats alone.

I hope that makes sense and wasn't too long winded.

TL:DR - We need more stats. Especially a WPPM :D


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Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 137	Posted - 2013.05.14 03:12:00 - [1] - Quote I strongly disagree with this. We don't need to remove stats, we just need to add more. There is no end all be all stat in any game, they each tell us something different about an individual or a group, and only a collection of different stats will create a complete picture. WPM (or something similar) is needed, but it is not better or worse than KDR, just different. I agree that some people put too much merit into KDR, but it is still a good measurement of one's basic killing and survival skills, which is extremely important in an FPS becase the longer you live and the more people you kill, the more the overall battle should move in your favor. People like to talk up the importance of WP and objectives, but the value of WP is diminished if you're dying all the time and making the battle more difficult for your team. Remove KDR and you are removing valuable information about people. Don't restrict information, give us more.
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 137	Posted - 2013.05.14 03:17:00 - [2] - Quote Vallud Eadesso wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: i agree, but there is no such thing as a FPS without K-D ratio statistics. Of course a player that is always on the front-line will have a worst K- ratio than a Tanker or a sniper, but thats just the way it is. Which is exactly why it's pointless it needs phasing out or hidden away. I don't really care how many times I or anyone else killed someone, nor do I care how many times they or I died. All I care about is seeing "Victory" at the end of the game and if it costs me 30 deaths and 1 kill to see it, then so be.[/b] But killing and surviving helps get that "victory", dying a lot makes things more difficult. You have to look at things in context. Yes, a sniper sitting back not doing much doesn't mean anything in terms of KDR, but for a frontline soldier there is nothing more important than killing power and survivability (which is measured by KDR).
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 137	Posted - 2013.05.14 03:27:00 - [3] - Quote Vallud Eadesso wrote: Sete Clifton wrote: Vallud Eadesso wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: i agree, but there is no such thing as a FPS without K-D ratio statistics. Of course a player that is always on the front-line will have a worst K- ratio than a Tanker or a sniper, but thats just the way it is. Which is exactly why it's pointless it needs phasing out or hidden away. I don't really care how many times I or anyone else killed someone, nor do I care how many times they or I died. All I care about is seeing "Victory" at the end of the game and if it costs me 30 deaths and 1 kill to see it, then so be.[/b] But killing and surviving helps get that "victory", dying a lot makes things more difficult. You have to look at things in context. Yes, a sniper sitting back not doing much doesn't mean anything in terms of KDR, but for a frontline soldier there is nothing more important than KDR. But if we still won, if we still heard EVA announce "Victory!" does anything else really matter? In a corp game, where everything is on the line and reimburment for lost suits from your alliance is the norm, K\D won't mean a thing. And it certainly wouldn't mean anything to a recruiter who could see a low K\D but a HUGE Team Score. If you don't have people who are good at killing and surviving (good/high KDR), then your team is going to get pushed back and not be competitive in a firefight, therefore the WP you get will be meaningless and you will lose the battle. You're not going to get a victory based on being good at getting WP alone. You need people to kill in order to defend points, capture points, hold the frontline, push back the enemy, etc. You need a balance. This is why there is no all important stat. You need to look at a lot of different ones.
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 137	Posted - 2013.05.14 03:41:00 - [4] - Quote Vallud Eadesso wrote: Oh of course, i'm not saying WP alone will win a game, but let me present to you a scenario: You are a recruiter for your corp. You have three applications on your desk but only one space available in your upcoming corp game, for whatever reason. Player X has an incredibly high K\D - 5.0 or higher, however his win\loss is less than 0.5 and his WP-PerMin is abysmal. Player Y has average K\D, 1.5 say, an average win\loss but a high WP-PerMin. Player Z has a terrible K\D, an average Win\Loss but an incredibly high WP-PM. Do do you recruit? Player X is right off the table. He's unlikely to follow orders, unlikely to put the team first and unlikely to do anything dangerous because he clearly cares too much about an arbitrary stat. Player Y: Good team player but likely does not follow orders or does not think ahead. Farms points from repairing and rearming with no intention of actually supporting beyond soaking up points. For me it's clearly player Z. He plays more for a team, will likely listen to orders, places others above his own needs and will be reliable in making sure your guys stay stocked and repaired. I can that from those stats alone. I hope that makes sense and wasn't too long winded. TL:DR - We need more stats. Especially a WPPM :D I'm not sure I'd come to the same conclusion that you did, but that's mostly because there should be more that goes into the decision. Such as what role/class do these people play, and what role class is my corporation lacking in. As an example, if I have enough support players but lack a good spearhead "shoot people in the face" type player and player X is an assault type then I'd probably go with him. Also, if it's really important, I might try to get to know what their personalities are like. Maybe player X is a good team player, it's hard to be sure based on numbers. Don't worry, I definitely agree that we need more stats, especially a WPPM type one. But stats are only as good as the context in which you view them. I'm fine with people not really caring about KDR, but it no doubt has it's place in a competitive shooter.
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 137	Posted - 2013.05.14 03:55:00 - [5] - Quote Rowley Pup wrote: Sete Clifton wrote: ...but it is still a good measurement of one's basic killing and survival skills Tell me please, how is KDR a good measurement in any way? It is an obtuse stat which merely declares that the player has, over time, managed to get more kills than deaths. It is absurdly easy to manipulate, and it also drives many players to cheat/hack/boost when possible. War Points Per Minute would be the most declarative stat when looking for an accurate summation of a player's skill at the game. Simply state your favored role, state your WPPM, and anyone with half a brain would be able to quickly judge your skill, at your chosen role. Is it also not possible to farm and cheat to get WP? Me and a buddy could AFK farm WP in the MCC if we wanted to. Anyway, I think I've layed out pretty well over the course of this thread why removing KDR (which is the topic if the thread) is not a good idea. I don't really feel like retyping everything, so if you haven't already I'd suggest reading all my posts in this thread. Just because it isn't important to you doesn't mean it has no value as a statistic. Let me be clear about one thing though. There is no single stat which can fully describe how good of a player someone is. Everything is about context. There are many situations in which KDR is meaningless, but it does tell you something about a player. It tells you how good some is a beating the other team in a direct firefight, why is it a good idea to remove that?