I mean in the way that, especially during Chromosome with mostly shield tankers, you could simply throw a flux and if it hit you could one shot them with the MD (outside of heavies). There is no real equivalent of that for the armor side. You can throw a Locus and then try to pop the shield before it goes off, but Im sure we can all agree that would take a lot more skill than the flux/MD combo.

I am still getting killed alot with this gun when I see it "out", most often the freedom varrient. It most often is a OHK when it does get me it seems.

This thread needs constant bumping.

The only way CCP are gonna take a look at our MD issues is with 30 pages of hate like the HMG whine thread got.

Our MD user population is a lot smaller, and a lot less defined since the weapon can be used across all classes. But the vast majority of users commenting have all said the same thing:

THE MASS DRIVER NEEDS TO BE RESTORED TO ITS FORMER GLORY AS A SUPPORT AND SUPPRESSION TOOL WITH A TRUE AoE.

Whether you believe the problem is splash, trajectory, damage, or lack of ammo from Hives, THERE IS A PROBLEM.

Coming from a person who is still getting relative successful kills from the 'Boundless' MD, the weapon would still not be my first choice if I had my time again. The catering to actual issues of the weapon (what I believe to be splash, trajectory, and effective damage against shields) has made my games less enjoyable since I can no longer go out into open flat ground or fire at a lower hill from above (trajectory issue); I run out of ammo after facing 3 other enemies (shield damage issue, Hive issue); and I no longer can suppress crowds for my squad (splash issue).

CCP, please don't ignore. The weapon is not as effective as it should be.

MD users, please continue to support this or another thread on the subject. 4 pages down, 26 to go.

This, pretty much.
CCP may have apparently tested the MD internally and decided it needed a nerf, but given how effective their testing seems to have been, and as someone who has actually played properly with the mass driver, I have no faith in that assessment.

See? That's the part that I don't understand. If they're going to base their analysis from playing with the MD or any game mechanic in the office, why the hell are they letting us beta test? I like what remnant has done for the logis and respect him for what he's doing for the heavies, but the basis for changing the MD was unprofessional. Not to mention the changes weren't listed on the patch notes.

Truth of the matter is CCP will look into things when they feel things get hot. HMG thread of QQ got 30 pages long and lo and behold CCP is caving in with hot fixes. MD was not a 'win button weapon' so few ppl specialized in it, so now we dont have the numbers to be able to influence CCP. The way things are it's only OP weapons that will be looked into like tanks AR and HMG because they have a huge lobby that can influence CCP. This is ironic.

Irony is that you put down people who complained about the Damage and (extra) Range nerf on HMGs while being upset over the Mass Drivers Splash Damage and Blast Radius nerfs.

I agree Mass Drivers are not now and were not a "win button" in the last build either. Would love to hear from a Dev how it was decided to neuter them.

To be perfectly honest, I'm a little baffled at what's happened with the Mass Driver. The reason for the splash and blast range nerf was that in playtests we found the MD to be so effective that at one point almost half the people in the office were using it in battles. Clearly, that's not been the case with Uprising and after getting the engineers to go elbow deep into the code it appears there may be a few reasons beyond dry numbers that are contributing to the MDs underwhelming performance.

One, there appears to be a de-sync between client and server so that (more often than it should) the server and client think the projectile exploded in different places. They're not far off, but enough so that shots you *think* are spot on are off the mark enough to do only minor splash damage. And two, I'm told splash occlusion is getting blocked by a single player character more than it should, contributing to the "randomness" of the damage dealt and the sometimes smudgy feeling of the weapon.

I'm hesitant to rebalance the weapon until we get these issues looked at (which is happening right now).

2 years of beta testing and they change a niche yet effective gaming mechanic after an office LAN party. Un-****ing believable.

So you are saying that flux gernades are very effective when the metagame favors shields and since the metagame still favors shields they are still pretty effective (And locus are pretty sweet too if they have armor). It doesnt matter what gun you have if you hit someone with a flux or locus. They just lost the majority of their HP. Scrambler pistol probably wouldn't have trouble finishing them off.

Yeah, basically. However, Im also saying that it favors the MD more than any other weapon. Scrambler pistol wouldn't have trouble finishing them off, but it would likely take 2 or more shots if you don't get a headshot and you have to actually hit your target dead on for those shots to count. Whereas the MD is very forgivining, you just place a shot near them and its bonus damage to armor will typically one shot someone.

Another sort of related problem is you cannot even use armor tanking as a way to get around this. Being that the MD has a bonus to armor damage they will be able to flux your shields off, and then hit you for bonus. To make this problem exponentially worse, armor plates give the user a movement penalty. This makes it even easier for a MD user to track and hit their target. But to be clear, I feel this is a problem with the flux filling a role that will no longer be needed soon, and not a problem with the MD itself. The mechanic is simply very broken with the MD.

I've been following your posts, and I'm trying really hard to read them objectively and not write you off.

One of the major concerns over Flux is it's ability to strip 1200Hp of shielding away, from both vehicles and suits alike. I guess I have to admit that does seem a little OP. But I think that stems from a different problem, one not associated with the Flux, but from the ineffectiveness of armor tanking dropsuits. IMO, if CCP decides to make changes to this combo, it needs to be done gingerly, and as a temporary fix while they adjust the viability of armor tanking. I personally feel that the damage the Flux nades do should be percentage based in the blast radius. This rewards those with excellent throwing skills, and gives those with great battlefield awareness the chance to minimize damage.

But, this has little to do with the MD changes, and stealth nerfing based on your cubicle neighbor's ability to own your ass is not the way to balance a game.

I don't give a flying flux about no grenades, I'd like a functioning weapon.

A weapon that does damage when it hits a target
a weapon that does damage where the visual indicators would lead you to believe it does.
A weapon that damages 2 targets if they are both in the splash radius
A weapon that doesn't require a second weapon to be slightly effective

This recon fella doesn't believe anything about the MD needs to be effective, he doesn't even like the fact that we can use a crutch weapon to make the primary weapon slightly effective. It doesn't matter that a Dev thinks the MD is broken (for whatever reason it may be) Recon by Fire will still find some way to disagree with anything an MD player suggests.

Individually all of these issues are that we have posted about are survivable for the MD, Some of them are really minor but when you add all of these together the MD has lost its place as a viable support weapon. This is the issue.

This is what we need to focus on.

I don't think Flux should do damage at all. I believe it should be a disruptive grenade instead. Its an incredibly unbalanced weapon, you don't see Locus grenades being able to do their full damage throughout their splash blast radius or have a fuse as short as the flux. I believe the Flux was a necessary evil before CCP could put out other weapons that counter shields. Flux, in my opinion, should do things like turn off active modules (on tanks and when they come later on dropsuits), as well as do things like disrupt the minimap for X amount of time, etc. It should be a purely disruptive weapon, not an offensive one. But, like you said, this is a bit off topic from the MD.

Lets compare the exo-5 and the freedom splash damage. Direct impacts are great and all, but most effective against heavies... And do they even count at this point?
Exo-5
51 CPU
7 PG
3.1m radius
110.2 HP splash damage
6 round clip -- 1 shot a second
4 second reload.

Freedom
93 CPU
14 PG
3.3m radius
115.5 Splash damage
6 round clip 1-- 1 shot a second
4 second reload.

So for 42 CPU and 7 PG you get...
~6.5% accuracy bonus
~31.8 damage a clip
Over the 10 second Fire/reload cycle that equals about 3.1 DPS difference... for double PG and 42 CPU

Furthermore, if every shot is a direct impact, the damage per 10 second reload cycle only increases to about 60 a clip.

Compare this with the 90 damage a clip for Gek vs Duvall... And the higher time spent firing (Basic AR clips last about 5 seconds w/ a 3 second reload. 4.8/7.8 VS. MD's 6/10)... Did I mention that the accuracy bonus between those two is also about 10% as well? For 1 more CPU and the same amount of PG....

Oh and ARs have another 3X multiplier skill that makes their shots more accurate as well...
Scale better much?

Just using an AR as an example... Not trying to say that the MD should do the same amount of damage as the AR, just saying that it doesn't scale well enough right now.

But if I WAS trying to make that arguement....

Duv DMG per clip (every shot hitting) 2040.
Freedom DMG per clip (Direct impacts every time!) 1452.

Ill leave it to the viewer to decide which of the two events are less likely... direct impacts every time -- or hitting with the AR.
Never mind the TAC duv...

I don't think you can have a complete discussion on the mass driver without talking about gernades too. Last patch it was viable to run gernades other than flux. Flux was the prefered choice for a MD user odviously, but AV was playable. This patch is different in that there is NO WAY I can play the gun without flux. Unless I want to go around last hitting people (which I have no problem with, but others might).

These things are my crutch. The same thing will happen with scrambler rifle and core locus and it will be even MORE effective. Break through half their shields + lob a few core locus. Flux themselves alone are a problem, but not THE problem. The problem is the blast radius on all of the anti personale gernades. It is more than twice the blast radius of the MD, with more than double the damage. Proto nanohives are still strong enough to support massive nade spam.

What I am saying is that the MD by itself could use a buff to levels slightly worse than chromosome. It is pretty much a crazy man shotgun at this point. It isn't strong in itself, but you destroy people with flux. It is effective against armor tanks, but a core locus will ONE SHOT them. Its hard to balance ANY gun without first balancing gernades. Mass driver users are just adapting... and spamming fluxes. Which turns out to be a better strategy than actually using their gun most of the time.

This is the worse of the two main MD threads that popped up. I've said in the other that a MD nerf was neccessary because of the removal of sharpshooter. And it was. The old freedom would eat the blobs up. My main issue with how they went about it is this:

1. The radius nerf was too extreme
2. The prototype weapons are too CPU/PG heavy for the marginal benefits they offer over the advanced varients.
I am going to copy paste my post from that thread to here.

I don't think you can have a complete discussion on the mass driver without talking about gernades too. Last patch it was viable to run gernades other than flux. Flux was the prefered choice for a MD user odviously, but AV was playable. This patch is different in that there is NO WAY I can play the gun without flux. Unless I want to go around last hitting people (which I have no problem with, but others might).

These things are my crutch. The same thing will happen with scrambler rifle and core locus and it will be even MORE effective. Break through half their shields + lob a few core locus. Flux themselves alone are a problem, but not THE problem. The problem is the blast radius on all of the anti personale gernades. It is more than twice the blast radius of the MD, with more than double the damage. Proto nanohives are still strong enough to support massive nade spam.

What I am saying is that the MD by itself could use a buff to levels slightly worse than chromosome. It is pretty much a crazy man shotgun at this point. It isn't strong in itself, but you destroy people with flux. It is effective against armor tanks, but a core locus will ONE SHOT them. Its hard to balance ANY gun without first balancing gernades. Mass driver users are just adapting... and spamming fluxes. Which turns out to be a better strategy than actually using their gun most of the time.

This is the worse of the two main MD threads that popped up. I've said in the other that a MD nerf was neccessary because of the removal of sharpshooter. And it was. The old freedom would eat the blobs up. My main issue with how they went about it is this:

1. The radius nerf was too extreme
2. The prototype weapons are too CPU/PG heavy for the marginal benefits they offer over the advanced varients.
I am going to copy paste my post from that thread to here.

[quote=Doc Audio]I thought the MD was rough when I first played uprising, but as I used it got better. Even better now that they added the 10% bonus Dmg back.

Im not the greatest player; honestly im slightly below average and I get plenty of kills with the MD. Ive had 2 matches that I had 21 plus kills with it which was unheard of for a Logi MD user in chromosome.

You just have to set up different suits and run the suit you need depending on the situation.

You get all the blast with teeth that you need with the Assault version, I run this when Im in a good squad and I am concentrating on being a Logi. It works well enough in most cases. After 1 or 2 shots plus a flux, peeps back off enough for you to revive and rep a bit. It wont get you a lot of kills but its not meant to...never has been.

I have another suit set up with the regular MD and it does what its supposed to, I get plenty of kills with it. Flux then MD and usually its lights out.

Dont get in to fights with the MD that you cant win. The blast physics still put u at a disadvantage when your opponent is on uneven ground and/or higher ground.

Just as the environment works against you. It also works for you. Look for opportunities to use it to your advantage.

Also check your system settings and make sure that your auto-aim is off. You cant hit anything with the MD when its turned on. Actually I think all weapons have this issue?

Im not against another MD boost but I dont believe its necessary.
From a logi point of view they need to fix my injector first....we can worry about the MD down the road somewhere.


21 kills was unheard of in chromo? Lol? My best on line harvest was 43 and i was able to top 30 consistantly on any map besides the 3 pointer. The MD is the only weapon ive ever used.. I was smart enough to check item stats before speccing so i did not. respecc into after the patch... That being said.. I have used it on an alt in uprising and honestly.. Stop crying. The weapon is fine and in the hands of anyone who actually knows how to use it its ******* deadly. Still. The damage patch uas brought it within 3 points of its former glory. The radius nerf is a joke to anyone who really understands the MD. Im not denying its taken a nerf.. But it is not THAT bad that it is unusable. Veteran MD users.. The good ones anyway, will still dominate.

Irony is that you put down people who complained about the Damage and (extra) Range nerf on HMGs while being upset over the Mass Drivers Splash Damage and Blast Radius nerfs.

I agree Mass Drivers are not now and were not a "win button" in the last build either. Would love to hear from a Dev how it was decided to neuter them.

Sorry if this request comes across lazy, but I'm on my iPhone reading this thread.

Is there a link or another thread that has confirmed the 10% damage boost to the MD?

2 years of beta testing and they change a niche yet effective gaming mechanic after an office LAN party. Un-****ing believable.

yeah I agree this is lame. My hope though is that after they fix the code the network game with MD will match their experience with LAN and hopefully MD will do what we all expect it to do.