DUST Search - Sticky:The future of Factional Warfare in DUST

Baal Roo wrote:

bolsh lee wrote:

Especially with no rewards or penalties, whats to stop two squads of 6 spliting up and one squad going to the other side to troll be it AFK or team killing with LAVS etc.... ?

I really dont understand how CCP can roll out a feature like this, hype it up (for what its worth... ) then not enable some kind of player vote/kick especially if this is supposed to be a meaningful battle for your faction of choice.... ?

So all this is is a glorified Pub match where its easier to Q sync... What?

It doesn't need player vote/kick, it needs

A) Friendly Fire
B) A heavy favoring of rewards for the winners (aka twice the SP, 4x or more ISK... or at least a similar mechanic.)

The problem is that they haven't made FW any more enticing for DUST players than regular old instant battle, because it doesn't matter if you win or lose. Who cares if I can bring in 16 guys from my corp or not, if I can expect the other people in the match not to care if they lose to us.

CCP, if you don't fix the rewards mechanics, this game is screwed. I'm a freakin' director of one of the largest corps in the game, and even I don't see any reason for anyone to give half a **** about FW with the current mechanics.

It's amazing that you guys could fail this badly at this.

Expect full 16 man teams from a single core running around in free gear screwing off in most matches, because clearly winning/losing doesn't matter in New Eden.

It's like a grade school track meet. Everyone gets a participation ribbon.

LAME

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 17 post(s)
Kiso Okami Militaires Sans Jeux 67	Posted - 2013.05.03 15:09:00 - [31] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I could be going off of the wrong impression, but I thought that in FW we will be able to "stack" squads, so that we could essentially go in with 16 members of our corporation / alliance. Any word on that? Pretty sure that if you know which match and which side your friends are in, you could all just join in....
Mad Rambo Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 21	Posted - 2013.05.03 15:14:00 - [32] - Quote so the FW battle generation... how does it really work? I mean knowing CCP it probably takes a downtime statistics of the plexing activity and generates battles according of this statistics. Please say this is not the case because if yes it is far to slow to react and will create battles for the attacking faction after the system was already flipped - which is obviously the wrong way around. dust could be the perfect first-strike mechanic where eve peps tell dust peps where they should strike to be able to flip systems faster on the eve side... since thats all what the dust FW link does so far, influence how fast eve peps can flip systems. If the system is already at 90% contested, dust influence is no longer very interesting but at 10% it would make a big difference.
Corbina Ninja Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 126	Posted - 2013.05.03 15:22:00 - [33] - Quote no more rewards??? only 16 vs 16? :(
Turan chiron Raymond James Corp 3	Posted - 2013.05.03 15:23:00 - [34] - Quote Right now we have no mode with ff on, maybe a vote system before the battle if you stack the geam? Gotta get used to it before Corp battles. I'm way to used to shooting through my team mates. Be nice to have a way to practice.
bolsh lee Ahrendee Mercenaries 53	Posted - 2013.05.03 15:32:00 - [35] - Quote Especially with no rewards or penalties, whats to stop two squads of 6 spliting up and one squad going to the other side to troll be it AFK or team killing with LAVS etc.... ? I really dont understand how CCP can roll out a feature like this, hype it up (for what its worth ) then not enable some kind of player vote/kick especially if this is supposed to be a meaningful battle for your faction of choice.... ? So all this is is a glorified Pub match where its easier to Q sync...
zyljan The Vanguard II 6	Posted - 2013.05.03 16:18:00 - [36] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: zyljan wrote: Any plans to have mercs (who are in a FW corp) be included in the FW Militia chat channel? Not as it stands. It doesn't seem to make much sense to add Mercs that have no affiliation (unlike Eve pilots) to a channel that is faction specific. Since i'm a member of an EVE FW corp, I do have an affiliation
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 426	Posted - 2013.05.03 16:47:00 - [37] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: Arramakaian Eka wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: For friendly fire we are looking at ways we can get it introduced into factional warfare. Our concern is not really about it being "more hard core" but about the ability for people to control who is in the matches and such. Right now there would be no conscience for people going into a FW match and just killing team mates. There are numerous FPSs which have FF always on, and it has never been an issue in the games I've played. Sure, you get accidental TK sometimes and the occasional asshat, but those are part of the game. There are also numerous ways to alleviate abuse, many of which have been outlined in various pro-FF posts on these very forums. FF should be on in FW, PC, and there should be a hardcore mode for Skirmish and Ambush with FF on. Yes this is true, however most those FPS have some kind of negative affect for lots of team killing. We don't have any of those systems in place yet and need to get them there before we open that up for griefing. I'm happy as long as FF is coming soon so I don't have to play carebear versions of the game
Nstomper Disqualified 254	Posted - 2013.05.03 17:45:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Frame wrote: Oh man can't wait. Come on CCP patch this thing already so I can fight for my side! But really, looking forward to these changes and playing with them live on TQ! This
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1238	Posted - 2013.05.03 17:54:00 - [39] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: I changed both references to PLEX in the OP to complex. Thanks. I figured it wasn't referring to the paid PLEX, but I couldn't figure out what it was. So what sort of complex is this thing?
Byozuma Kegawa The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 2	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:02:00 - [40] - Quote Arramakaian Eka wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: Arramakaian Eka wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: For friendly fire we are looking at ways we can get it introduced into factional warfare. Our concern is not really about it being "more hard core" but about the ability for people to control who is in the matches and such. Right now there would be no conscience for people going into a FW match and just killing team mates. There are numerous FPSs which have FF always on, and it has never been an issue in the games I've played. Sure, you get accidental TK sometimes and the occasional asshat, but those are part of the game. There are also numerous ways to alleviate abuse, many of which have been outlined in various pro-FF posts on these very forums. FF should be on in FW, PC, and there should be a hardcore mode for Skirmish and Ambush with FF on. Yes this is true, however most those FPS have some kind of negative affect for lots of team killing. We don't have any of those systems in place yet and need to get them there before we open that up for griefing. I'm happy as long as FF is coming soon so I don't have to play carebear versions of the game Having been a victim of members of my own team killing everyone that spawned with an LAV, as well as people teammates (harmlessly) shooting me in the back while I try to recover an objective from an opposing team's hack, I don't much like the idea of friendly fire. Woe be the day that I'm killed for trying to be a team player, and yet this is what you want? To be able TO kill someone for not doing something the way you want? Friendly fire will just make griefing worse... and viable. The lack of friendly fire is what I like about Dust, I don't have to worry about getting killed by my own team cause I killed another person's target or got the full points for a hack or what have you. And sadly, even if CCP does implement a system to punish griefing, griefers aren't going to care because it's not about the team with them. They just care about their own score, and I defy anyone to say otherwise.


CCP Nullarbor C C P C C P Alliance 939	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:11:00 - [41] - Quote We have some interesting ideas on how we could deal with players griefing team mates with FF as well as rewarding players who play well and are loyal to a particular faction. We will be discussing both of these in detail with the CPM and the community once we are finished with Uprising.

Octavian Vetiver Dog Nation United ProtoStar Federation 159	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:18:00 - [42] - Quote Skihids wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: I changed both references to PLEX in the OP to complex. Thanks. I figured it wasn't referring to the paid PLEX, but I couldn't figure out what it was. So what sort of complex is this thing? A complex is a FW site in EvE inside the solar system. In order to gain control of it from the opposing militia the militia that wants to take that site have to go in, clear it, and hold it until the site becomes theirs. Here is the evewiki on it http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Factional_Warfare_Dungeons . You can overlook the name dungeons because they're not actually a dungeon but a deadspace pocket.
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 811	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:18:00 - [43] - Quote Silly question. Will the attacking and defending faction be correctly listed? I often see myself fighting for the Federal Defense Union (Caldari State) or the State Protectorate (Gallente Federation). I want to be absolutely sure I'm blowing up Caldari and Amarr HAVs.
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 811	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:20:00 - [44] - Quote Oh, I'm also glad to hear that Standings are coming at some point. I really feel they are a part of the MMORP part of MMORPFPS.
Corbina Ninja Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 126	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:22:00 - [45] - Quote 24 vs 24 why not?
Octavian Vetiver Dog Nation United ProtoStar Federation 159	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:22:00 - [46] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Silly question. Will the attacking and defending faction be correctly listed? I often see myself fighting for the Federal Defense Union (Caldari State) or the State Protectorate (Gallente Federation). I want to be absolutely sure I'm blowing up Caldari and Amarr HAVs. Since race doesn't matter for what equipment you use you'll have people fighting for the gallente dropping out caldari equipment or even amarr and vice versa.
Django Quik R.I.f.t Orion Empire 397	Posted - 2013.05.03 19:09:00 - [47] - Quote Please please please add a similar loot system to the PC mechanic. Would make it actually more enticing than just playing the normal pub matches.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1315	Posted - 2013.05.03 20:22:00 - [48] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: [b]Rewards For now the FW battle rewards will match those of instant battles. We are looking into ways we can change this, things like if you fight for one faction continuously you gain standings and the standings affect your reward. For now though the rewards will match those of instant battles. Might as well change this now, because it's an unbelievably bad decision.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1315	Posted - 2013.05.03 20:26:00 - [49] - Quote bolsh lee wrote: Especially with no rewards or penalties, whats to stop two squads of 6 spliting up and one squad going to the other side to troll be it AFK or team killing with LAVS etc.... ? I really dont understand how CCP can roll out a feature like this, hype it up (for what its worth ) then not enable some kind of player vote/kick especially if this is supposed to be a meaningful battle for your faction of choice.... ? So all this is is a glorified Pub match where its easier to Q sync... It doesn't need player vote/kick, it needs A) Friendly Fire B) A heavy favoring of rewards for the winners (aka twice the SP, 4x or more ISK) The problem is that they haven't made FW any more enticing for DUST players than regular old instant battle, because it doesn't matter if you win or loose. Who cares if I can bring in 16 guys from my corp or not, if I can expect the other people in the match not to care of they lose to us. CCP, if you don't fix the rewards mechanics, this game is screwed. I'm a freakin' director of one of the largest corps in the game, and even I don't see any reason for anyone to give half a **** about FW with the current mechanics. It's amazing that you guys could fail this badly at this.
bolsh lee Ahrendee Mercenaries 53	Posted - 2013.05.03 22:28:00 - [50] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: bolsh lee wrote: Especially with no rewards or penalties, whats to stop two squads of 6 spliting up and one squad going to the other side to troll be it AFK or team killing with LAVS etc.... ? I really dont understand how CCP can roll out a feature like this, hype it up (for what its worth... ) then not enable some kind of player vote/kick especially if this is supposed to be a meaningful battle for your faction of choice.... ? So all this is is a glorified Pub match where its easier to Q sync... It doesn't need player vote/kick, it needs A) Friendly Fire B) A heavy favoring of rewards for the winners (aka twice the SP, 4x or more ISK... or at least a similar mechanic.) The problem is that they haven't made FW any more enticing for DUST players than regular old instant battle, because it doesn't matter if you win or lose. Who cares if I can bring in 16 guys from my corp or not, if I can expect the other people in the match not to care if they lose to us. CCP, if you don't fix the rewards mechanics, this game is screwed. I'm a freakin' director of one of the largest corps in the game, and even I don't see any reason for anyone to give half a ** about FW with the current mechanics. It's amazing that you guys could fail this badly at this. Expect full 16 man teams from a single core running around in free gear screwing off in most matches, because clearly winning/losing doesn't matter in New Eden. It's like a grade school track meet. Everyone gets a participation ribbon. LAME** Couldn't agree more ! Especially if CCP wants this to be meaningful... I also see this as being a semi alternate mode to PC for the smaller corps wanting to compete in something "meaningful" but not even sure why im putting effort into expressing this because I can tell the devs are super excited to keep it the way it is.. Especially since risk/reward or loyalty points are "just an idea" not even on the road map......

Broxx Nexular Occupational Hazard Vital Core Exhumers Industrial Coalition 14	Posted - 2013.05.03 22:42:00 - [51] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: Rewards For now the FW battle rewards will match those of instant battles. We are looking into ways we can change this, things like if you fight for one faction continuously you gain standings and the standings affect your reward. For now though the rewards will match those of instant battles. what about awarding LP also, you could then have FW awarded dropsuits and equipment that require the LP to purchase them. Of course the suits can be the racial suits with the standard "camo" skin seen on the ships. You could probably do something like take the bonus the suit gives and increase by 1-2% or something. A small improvement over the standard market suits but an improvement no less. EDIT: I know you want to avoid giving mercs standings, but giving LP instead of standing can let mercs fight for who they want and still have their loyalty rewarded
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries 253	Posted - 2013.05.04 00:27:00 - [52] - Quote What I don't understand is why you limited it to 16v16. From everything I've read, it seems like this will be the exact same as Instant Battle is now, with the addition of being able to q-sync a bunch of people together. The problem is, you can sort of do that now, it's just a little trickier and much less reliable. I'm almost more interested in Instand Battles now because at least they're 24v24, which is something new. Wasn't the whole point of FW to get high-SP players away from pubstomping? To do that you need incentives... This is a pretty big let-down.
Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 249	Posted - 2013.05.04 03:58:00 - [53] - Quote Please prioritize putting incentives to FW. I don't want another pointless piece of content...
Felix Thunide Gespenster Kompanie Villore Accords 1	Posted - 2013.05.04 06:15:00 - [54] - Quote I run a faction warfare corp. Are my members going to be restricted to Gallente/Minmatar sides or are they going to be able to join the Caldari/Amarr sides as well? If this is the case can I see which members of my corporation are causing my faction trouble so i can kick them out?
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming EoN. 2994	Posted - 2013.05.04 06:27:00 - [55] - Quote Fox, Null these are some things u NEED to get in FW: Immediately: - Increased ISK reward ONLY for the winners, PC Loot system Soon, hopefully without the tm: - LP or as i would prefer to call it in DUST..MP (Mercenary Points) - LP/MP Faction Gear....should be hella easy all u need to do is take current models of gear change colour and stats/mod slots as well perhaps I want to spend my time doing FW when not doin the few PC games a day or w/e we can.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 415	Posted - 2013.05.04 06:36:00 - [56] - Quote Yup, that's it! I might as well just AFK farm for now on then because it's apparently what CCP wants. Factional Warfare could have been something...
Django Quik R.I.f.t Orion Empire 398	Posted - 2013.05.04 07:19:00 - [57] - Quote There's a seriously massive issue that has been pretty much totally overlooked by everyone here and needs urgent attention: AFKing. If you can stack an entire game (which you will be able to on both sides) with your corp/friends, all 32 players can avoid capturing any null cannons and the game will last almost an hour. With these reward mechanics you'd still get some isk but most importantly you'd get nearly 18000 SP without boosters (that's 27000 SP with!). This needs fixing ASAP. The entire FW system was better as it was - this way is much much worse and hugely open to exploitation.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 172	Posted - 2013.05.04 08:32:00 - [58] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: I really think we need to have some penalties of some kind for leaving/not fighting in the match. I fear that if some corps deploy into the FW matches the other team would just constantly either leave the match or stay in the MCC/somewhere else in the redline the entire match. Stupid smart phone
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 172	Posted - 2013.05.04 08:34:00 - [59] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: I really think we need to have some penalties of some kind for leaving/not fighting in the match. I fear that if some corps deploy into the FW matches the other team would just constantly either leave the match or stay in the MCC/somewhere else in the redline the entire match. Make team killers and afk red to everyone. There would have to be some type of counter/timer for kills and movement.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 172	Posted - 2013.05.04 08:37:00 - [60] - Quote Django Quik wrote: There's a seriously massive issue that has been pretty much totally overlooked by everyone here and needs urgent attention: AFKing. If you can stack an entire game (which you will be able to on both sides) with your corp/friends, all 32 players can avoid capturing any null cannons and the game will last almost an hour. With these reward mechanics you'd still get some isk but most importantly you'd get nearly 18000 SP without boosters (that's 27000 SP with!). This needs fixing ASAP. The entire FW system was better as it was - this way is much much worse and hugely open to exploitation. 1. Throwing the match for the side you want to win is a tactic that is going to difficult to deal with. 2. Passive SP is the only way to fix the grind/ boost problem.



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